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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
You could tell them their priority is 33, 10923, and -5, resolved highest to lowest, but that still gets weird. I want a way to resolve explosive bussing without assigning priority. I'm going to find one. List driving is its own mechanic though, and again assigns priority they shouldn't have. | ||
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
On September 18 2013 08:47 Blazinghand wrote: i don't see what's wrong with my version Unless a statement has been made about the effect of you version on how the game is played then so far nothing has been said about what is wrong with it. You could decide that when there are multiple bus drivers intersect physics fails and the players bus drive actions are redecided randomly. That is a bad choice ... but its badness lies in how it effects game play and the players experience. The only thing I see 'wrong' with the approach you used, + Show Spoiler + and note your method was the outcome Id most likely have produced if I made up a system out of whole cloth, Until I read Igroks post I had no idea how N bus drivers resolved, and had decided to use the 'LOL play on' strategy if I ever accidentally signed up to a game with N bus drivers, but IGroks post reminded me of some math I had nearly forgotten and I got ... thinking. AFAIK: Igroks bus driver mechanic is less disruptive. If I used N bus drivers in a game Id use it. (+some more heuristics, to resolve the unlikely ambiguities, that i would never intend to explain) | ||
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
On September 18 2013 08:41 iGrok wrote: Ok, so iGrok's Solution solves the chain bussing problem, but doesn't solve explosive bussing. We need a different solution for specifically that, and then we can have two theories that kinda sorta work together, like quantum and relativity right? We don't -need- a unified theory, just two theories which solve both issues. As I have already solved chain bussing, I now need to work on explosive bussing. First we need to determine our goals. Explosive bussing, while hilarious, is bad (and I say this as someone who tried to get everyone killed in aperture) because it can lead to multiple deaths occuring from 1 bullet (or any variation of that). Therefore, explosive bussing solutions should find some way to negate that, without completely negating the original action. The entire purpose of bussing theory is to eliminate RNG, so RNG cannot be involved. Alrighty, with that determined, its time to get to work. "Explosive bussing," I can just see the game now... "Terrorist Attack" the game has town bus drivers and you never know when the terrorists(scum) will blow one up.... </delusion> As I said before it is solved "Igrok knows the answer, wait for the day post. LOL. Play On" As Gonzaws dilemma is exactly symetric (3 fold symmetry) in terms of who is acted on, then it is an absolute requirement that some other feature be used to resolve it into a specific set of bussings. While I do like the no RNG, if things like Gonzaws dilemma are statistically unlikely to happen in real games then it hardly matters. Rules that fix most of the problem. IGroks rule (per one example) of removing all possible zero effect bus loops. This occurs any time a round trip is possible on the bus drives. Reason: Minimising the effect of bus drivers on the game is good. + Show Spoiler + True the way to minimise the effect of bus drivers is to as, Ace suggested, simply not have any, but if the particular game is also aiming to be a funny game then that too is sub optimal. That will in practice probably fix a lot of stuff. My next rule which requires some precedence. Is I would (secretly) order players from best to worst IMO. Given a choice, I would optimise bus driving best players shortest distances and pairing of best and worst players. I call that the benevolent god, resolution as its hopefully as blind guess what most townies would want to happen. (save the good player by hiding them somewhere else in the list.) Up to about 5 bus drivers every possible topography is listable. The worst IMO being the double Gonzaws dilemma. (BA CA AD DE DF) 6 Bus drives allows Gonzaws Monster (without the ears) + Show Spoiler [really its aspoiler] + tetrahedron | ||
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
I abhor hidden secret priority though, there has got to be another way. Gonzaw's monster is hilarious, they should all go the middle lol. | ||
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
On September 18 2013 09:13 ObviousOne wrote: You want to see them like Bus Driver I Bus Driver II Bus Driver III And they resolve in role name order? Could be transparent to the player or not (could even do the pigs loose in a school joke and number them 1, 2, 4. Lol The bus that drives by my house is the 734, if you are the bus driver of 734, what is your priority? I can even get you a photo of the bus if you like... Lots of answers to priority, some transparent to players some opaque, it is matter of what the host wants the players to know to make the game the most fun for the players. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
"Don't fuck with the infinite!" -Fate Ninja | ||
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
On September 18 2013 10:26 iGrok wrote: I think I agree with everything you just said. so to resolve multibusses, first apply iGrok's First Rule of Bussing: cancel out that shit. I abhor hidden secret priority though, there has got to be another way. Gonzaw's monster is hilarious, they should all go the middle lol. Re: All go to the middle = Quantum mechanical bus driving. Although I think it could be set up to give unique solutions, when i tried to think about my head hurt, the amount of KP delivered to people would probably not be a rational number... re Gonzaws monster. (with ears) Its worse than that the green bit is a tetrahedron, there are 4 different loops that might have been cancelled, one produces the 5 way Gonzaws dilemma the other three cancellations produce patterns of this Form (21) (31) (14) (45) (46) (Gonzaws double dilemma) which is still so ambiguous that there exists reasonable and indistinguishably good interpretations that any one person may still be driven to any other. Gonzaws dilemma is absolutely unsolvable, unless more information is added such as a predefined (distinguishing feature/priority) for either destinations or bus drivers. It is absolutely unsolvable because it is perfectly symmetric. I too may "I abhor hidden secret priority though, there has got to be another way." unfortunately reality does not care what I want, so there does not got to be anything. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
"target" is fundamentally different from "redirect to" and the ambiguity of language can cause confusion. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On September 17 2013 08:50 gonzaw wrote: And how about this: 6 players: A B C D E F These are the busses: AB AC AD AE AF CD CF DF Again, every node is "odd", no repeated busses. The more "complex" you get, the more you have to create ad hoc stuff and just say "well, I just say it works like this because magic". ...also I fully expect you guys to create a 10-busdriver mafia game soon  Actions [not redirects] on A happen to B C D E Actions [not redirects] on C happen to D F Actions [not redirects] on D happen to F If redirects are not classified as actions (things that target), it's pretty simple. No need to propagate the links through channels. No complex math logic. You could resolve the actions in 2 minutes. ez gg no re | ||
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
On September 18 2013 10:56 ObviousOne wrote: Actions [not redirects] on A happen to B C D E Actions [not redirects] on C happen to D F Actions [not redirects] on D happen to F If redirects are not classified as actions (things that target), it's pretty simple. No need to propagate the links through channels. No complex math logic. You could resolve the actions in 2 minutes. ez gg no re Its not redirects its busses, which happens both ways. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On September 18 2013 10:59 iGrok wrote: ABCDEF are just names, not order of priority... Precisely. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
![[image loading]](https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/CbXEPXpqHSb4nzW2GWl8CfDVsKdoAJozojdz-HNlcjw=w518-h442-no) This is the correct setup? | ||
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
By making bussing and other redirects non-Actions, that... hmm. Going to have to think about this, but that could work | ||
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
On September 18 2013 10:56 ObviousOne wrote: Actions [not redirects] on A happen to B C D E Actions [not redirects] on C happen to D F Actions [not redirects] on D happen to F If redirects are not classified as actions (things that target), it's pretty simple. No need to propagate the links through channels. No complex math logic. You could resolve the actions in 2 minutes. ez gg no re @ObviousOne http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=19776458 You appear by your own logic to have missed AF? TBMK Bus drives when interpreted alone swap players. You appear to have made them unidirectional when they interact? (is that change intentional?) AKA: The bus drives AD ought also mean actions to D happen to A? That is one way to resolve it (prohibit redirects) but i get this as the resolution matrix. Actions [not redirects] on A happen to B C D E F Actions [not redirects] on C happen to D F A Actions [not redirects] on D happen to F A C Actions [not redirects] on F happen to A C D Actions [not redirects] on B or E (the ears) only happen to A yeah I like it for simplicity of resolution, don't like the idea of balancing game with a faction independent kill multiplier in it so it might swing the game wildly either way. That any cop check, role block, tracker, watcher, mason, also gains power is also to my way of thinking less than ideal. How they interact with quantum mechanical Bus drivers is probably also why they are bad things. | ||
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
A B C Busdriver 1 busdrives between A and C Busdriver 2 busdrives between A and B their actions resolve simultaneous Vigi shoots at A who dies? | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On September 18 2013 11:32 Blazinghand wrote: 3 players A B C Busdriver 1 busdrives between A and C Busdriver 2 busdrives between A and B their actions resolve simultaneous Vigi shoots at A who dies? In my world, both B and C die. But if C is shot, only A dies. | ||
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