EPTMiscellaneous/Multi-Purpose Mafia I - Page 58
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GreYMisT
United States6736 Posts
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Then we'll have Ferrari Drivers, but no Bus Drivers, therefore problem solved (also the guys deserve it for their hard work) | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On September 18 2013 23:39 strongandbig wrote: Okay I think the initial problem can be easily shown to be insoluble. Suppose A, B, and C are all bussed with D. I believe igrok is demanding the following: - an action on any of those players resolves on exactly one player who may or may not be the initial target. - the final target is not determined randomly - there is no hidden or explicit system of actor or action priorities - there is no hidden or explicit system of target priorities. I think the least objectionable system based on what igrok has said he wants would be a deterministic system of target priorities. Basically, look at each bus as a temporary list swap and actions on the bussed players as targeting spots on the list. 1. Create a sublist of all the players involved in a bussing network, in order of main list priority. 2. All bus actions resolve simultaneously and swap their initial two targets. 3. Resolve conflicts using initial list order So if your initial list was 1. A 2. B 3. C 4. D And all four players are bussed with D, then you have 1. D 2. D 3. D 4. A/B/C Then you resolve the list: 1. D 2. A 3. B 4. C So non-bus actions which targeted A now target D. You also have B->A, C->B, and D->C. This also opens up interesting gameplay possibilities since everyone would know the resolution method - if you think one player is going to get bussed, you can defensively bus them with someone higher on the player list, etc. This "sublist" is based on the player list, right? Well, this does introduce new mechanics, it's not "pure" bus drivers. It changes how people will analyze busses, etc. People KNOW the positions in the player list, this gives them more info in analyzing what is happening with bus drivers at night depending on the outcomes, etc. For instance, in the above case, if someone claims they shot B but A died, then B could know (if he has other info) that A is in that bus channel, since if A wasn't B would be at the "top" of the sublist and the busses would be different. Who is to say, that by having a sufficiently large amount of bus drivers, that town can't know 100% all the busdrives that took place based on that alone? It seems unlikely...but what if you have 6 bus drivers (imagine they are compulsive). You are going to tell me that you are 100% sure that there is no way town can instantly know all the busses, based on the outcomes of specific actions (that were redirected or not) and the player list? Most likely not The most important thing though is: Does this benefit town more? How much? How much more info do they got that they can solve the game more easily? Or scum as well if there are both scum and town busdrivers. ...or maybe it has no bearings at all and everybody is too stupid to try and figure things out with it and everything is fine... ....but nevertheless, it adds a new dimension to bus driving that didn't exist before, and that changes how the role works, how people use it, how people analyze it, etc. | ||
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
On September 19 2013 02:35 Sn0_Man wrote: I'm with Ace I too am with Ace that is the effect of 1 Bus. The effect of Two busses interacting + Show Spoiler + AC AB ![[image loading]](http://images.smh.com.au/2010/07/29/1722607/kempsey420-420x0.jpg) Notice Top center of image what happens to bus targets B and C. All that is left is to work out what happened to A. I suspect that both busses interesecting at A was bad for A. I suspect I have run out of 'sensible' things to say so perhaps I will just stop instead. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On September 19 2013 02:59 gonzaw wrote: This "sublist" is based on the player list, right? Well, this does introduce new mechanics, it's not "pure" bus drivers. It changes how people will analyze busses, etc. People KNOW the positions in the player list, this gives them more info in analyzing what is happening with bus drivers at night depending on the outcomes, etc. For instance, in the above case, if someone claims they shot B but A died, then B could know (if he has other info) that A is in that bus channel, since if A wasn't B would be at the "top" of the sublist and the busses would be different. Who is to say, that by having a sufficiently large amount of bus drivers, that town can't know 100% all the busdrives that took place based on that alone? It seems unlikely...but what if you have 6 bus drivers (imagine they are compulsive). You are going to tell me that you are 100% sure that there is no way town can instantly know all the busses, based on the outcomes of specific actions (that were redirected or not) and the player list? Most likely not The most important thing though is: Does this benefit town more? How much? How much more info do they got that they can solve the game more easily? Or scum as well if there are both scum and town busdrivers. ...or maybe it has no bearings at all and everybody is too stupid to try and figure things out with it and everything is fine... ....but nevertheless, it adds a new dimension to bus driving that didn't exist before, and that changes how the role works, how people use it, how people analyze it, etc. Yeah the first part of my post was pointing out that having what you're thinking of as traditional busdriving makes resolving a situation like this and meeting igrok's criteria logically impossible. | ||
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Pandain
United States12984 Posts
#TeamLiquidmafia while we wait for Golden Sun post. omg so much suspense edit: why does no one join meee | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On September 20 2013 07:06 Pandain wrote: Doing an irc channel #TeamLiquidmafia while we wait for Golden Sun post. omg so much suspense edit: why does no one join meee you're in the game, stop making these posts. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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Pandain
United States12984 Posts
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
I think we should just redefine the busdriver ability. We have to do it in a way, that if you have only 1 busdriver in the game, he behaves exactly like he does normally (redirect actions), but if you include more busdrivers you get totally new mechanics with their interactions. But you have only a single role and a single mechanic which you could easily apply. I don't think we should include player lists into this. These roles should be as "atomic" as possible. If you somehow have a themed game where the player list is manipulated (e.g Aperture Mafia 2), then it may fuck up the bus driver role in some way if it hinges on player list position. Like Classical Mechanics, the theory works fine in a normal, small-scale setting; but as soon as you start thinking big and apply other frames of reference the theory falls down. We need a Relativistic Bus Driver Theory, so it can be applied to any scale, but if it's applied to a small scale you can approximate it using Classical Bus Driver Theory. We only need a Mafia Einstein to show us the way.... | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
Then, instead of thinking of players as the only entity in the game from an abstract point of view, think of players living in houses. So, Player A live in House A, which he owns. Then, instead of having roles target players, most of them target the houses instead, so when a role says that you target Player A, really it means that you visit House A. So, when a detective investigates someone, he goes to that House, looks in the windows, and sees if they're mafia or town. A tracker for example, would wait outside a house, and watch whoever comes out. Keep in mind that it's dark out at night, so you can't really tell who's really inside of a house or going for a midnight stroll. You only know what house you're visiting and who should be living there. So, how does this framework of Players and Houses relate to busdrivers? Well, busdrivers don't redirect the actions targeted at Player A to Player B, instead they now drive Player A to House B, and Player B to House A. Now, the reason for enforcing bus priority is for both easy action resolution, and to enforce that only one Player can live in a House. This method also has the bonuses of solving self bussing. If Player A buses himself, he moves Player A from House A to House A, essentially doing nothing. If he targets himself and Player B, he moves Player B to House A, and Player A to House B for the purposes of night actions. Now, however, the host is responsible for choosing a number of busdrivers so that his game can account for the chaos. If he chooses to have 5 busdrivers in the game, then he has to deal with the consequences of large movements happening. Let B1, B2, ... , B5 be the busdrivers, and let S(P1, P2) be a swap between Players 1 and 2. Let H(P1) be the house P1 currently finds himself in. Also, let the order of resolution in this game simply be B1 > B2 > ... > B5. Now, some examples: H(P1) = H1, H(P2) = H2 B1: S(P1, P2) H(P1) = H2, H(P2) = H1 B2: S(P2, P1) H(P1) = H1, H(P2) = H2 Two swap operations on the same player set with no swaps in-between result in the players ending up in the house they started in. H(P1) = P1, H(P2) = P2, H(P3) = P3, H(P4) = P4, H(P5) = P5 B1: S(P1, P2) H(P1) = P2, H(P2) = P1 B2: S(P2, P3) H(P1) = P3, H(P3) = P2 B3: S(P3, P4) H(P1) = P4, H(P4) = P3 B4: S(P4, P5) H(P1) = P5, H(P5) = P4 B5: S(P5, P1) H(P1) = P1, H(P2) = P5, H(P3) = P2, H(P4) = P3, H(P5) = P4 So, in a cycle like this, P1 finds himself in his original house, but all other players find themselves relocated. I'm out of time right now, but this method is pretty simple, and it should work. It also solves ambiguous question like a busdriver bussing himself, what result a detective gets from busdriven targets, etc. So, you need an order of resolution for busdrivers. Then, you also need to keep in mind the idea that players visit other players' houses instead of visiting the players themselves. Finally, busdrives don't redirect actions, they drive players from one house to another. | ||
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
This is the other thing: Do RBers happen after the busdriving, before, or concurrently? Example: P1 is RBer, P2 and P3 are BD (busdrivers), P4 is Vig (a)P1 RBs P4 (b)P2 BD P4 and P3 (c)P3 BD P2 and P4 (d)P4 shoots P2 1)RBs happen before: So the order of shit happening is (a)-(b)-(c)-(d). Thus P4 is RBed. Busses happen, but P4 can't shoot. Therefore no one dies. 2)RBs happen after: So the order of shit happening is (b)-(c)-(a)-(d). P4 is bussed with P3, P2 is bussed with P4. Based on Wiggles theory, P2 is at P4's house, P3 at P2's house, and P4 at P3's house. P1 RBs P4, but ends up RBing P2. Nothing happens. P4 shoots P2, which ends up shooting P3. Therefore P3 dies 3)RBs happen inbetween: This follows my "dependency" theory from before. In this case a possible order is (c)-(a)-(b)-(d). This means P2 and P4 are BD, so P2 is at P4's house, P4 at P2's house. Then P1 RBs P4, therefore ends up RBing P2. P2 can't BD in that case. Then P4 shoots P2. P4 is at P2's house, therefore P4 shoots himself. Therefore P4 dies. 4)RBs happen inbetween: This follows my "dependency" theory from before. In this case another possible order is (b)-(a)-(c)-(d). This means P4 ends up at P3's house, P3 ends up at P4's house. Then P1 RBs P4, which ends up RBing P3. P3 tries to BD, but cant' do shit. Then P4 shoots P2. Therefore P2 dies Even with that theory Wiggles, shit gets complex when you include RBers. Which one of those should happen? There are 4 possible options, all of them have different outcomes. What if you had more busdrivers and RBers? What do you do then? In my mind, doing the whole "RBs always happen before bus drivers" or "RBs always happen after busdrivers" is boring, because the RB is another action just like bussing, and could be RBing a busdriver, or doing other shit but you force him to wait or do everything before and I don't really like that In my mind RBing should be bussable. If I RB P2, but P2 is bussed with P4, then I should be RBing P4. So making RBs happen first doesn't make sense, it makes the whole "redirection" thing fall apart. If I RB P2, and P2 busses P3 with P4, and P4 is shot, then I should be able to RB the bus, therefore P4 isn't bussed and P4 ends up shot. If RBS happen after BD always, then P3 and P4 are still bussed and thus P3 dies. But in this situation it doesn't make sense for P3 to die, since I RBed the bus driver. So making RBs happen after BD doesn't make sense either. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On September 22 2013 01:18 iGrok wrote: But that is still priority! I refuse to give identical roles some arbitrary priority. what about my idea | ||
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
If there is any sort of priority, there is no busdriver issue, no explosions are possible | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On September 22 2013 05:01 gonzaw wrote: And what if you include other shit into the mix, like RBers, or other types of roles, etc? This is the other thing: Do RBers happen after the busdriving, before, or concurrently? Example: P1 is RBer, P2 and P3 are BD (busdrivers), P4 is Vig (a)P1 RBs P4 (b)P2 BD P4 and P3 (c)P3 BD P2 and P4 (d)P4 shoots P2 1)RBs happen before: So the order of shit happening is (a)-(b)-(c)-(d). Thus P4 is RBed. Busses happen, but P4 can't shoot. Therefore no one dies. 2)RBs happen after: So the order of shit happening is (b)-(c)-(a)-(d). P4 is bussed with P3, P2 is bussed with P4. Based on Wiggles theory, P2 is at P4's house, P3 at P2's house, and P4 at P3's house. P1 RBs P4, but ends up RBing P2. Nothing happens. P4 shoots P2, which ends up shooting P3. Therefore P3 dies 3)RBs happen inbetween: This follows my "dependency" theory from before. In this case a possible order is (c)-(a)-(b)-(d). This means P2 and P4 are BD, so P2 is at P4's house, P4 at P2's house. Then P1 RBs P4, therefore ends up RBing P2. P2 can't BD in that case. Then P4 shoots P2. P4 is at P2's house, therefore P4 shoots himself. Therefore P4 dies. 4)RBs happen inbetween: This follows my "dependency" theory from before. In this case another possible order is (b)-(a)-(c)-(d). This means P4 ends up at P3's house, P3 ends up at P4's house. Then P1 RBs P4, which ends up RBing P3. P3 tries to BD, but cant' do shit. Then P4 shoots P2. Therefore P2 dies Even with that theory Wiggles, shit gets complex when you include RBers. Which one of those should happen? There are 4 possible options, all of them have different outcomes. What if you had more busdrivers and RBers? What do you do then? In my mind, doing the whole "RBs always happen before bus drivers" or "RBs always happen after busdrivers" is boring, because the RB is another action just like bussing, and could be RBing a busdriver, or doing other shit but you force him to wait or do everything before and I don't really like that In my mind RBing should be bussable. If I RB P2, but P2 is bussed with P4, then I should be RBing P4. So making RBs happen first doesn't make sense, it makes the whole "redirection" thing fall apart. If I RB P2, and P2 busses P3 with P4, and P4 is shot, then I should be able to RB the bus, therefore P4 isn't bussed and P4 ends up shot. If RBS happen after BD always, then P3 and P4 are still bussed and thus P3 dies. But in this situation it doesn't make sense for P3 to die, since I RBed the bus driver. So making RBs happen after BD doesn't make sense either. It's not that complex with roleblockers, you just need to make a decision about the order of resolution. If I were using this in a game, it would be that roleblocks that target busdrivers happen first, then busdriving happens, then the rest of the roleblocks happen. So, busdrivers can still be roleblocked, but they can cause roleblocks to hit the wrong targets. Busdrivers being roleblock immune is silly, but so is busdrivers having no effect on roleblocks. So, we introduce a compromise, in a way that is deterministic. On September 22 2013 01:18 iGrok wrote: But that is still priority! I refuse to give identical roles some arbitrary priority. You need to decide on if a busdriver is a "double redirector", or a swapper. In my opinion, a busdriver is a swapper, so your explosion problem can't exist. It also makes more sense to me given the name of the role. You're treating it as a "double redirector", though, which is what causes problems. I don't see the problem with giving priorities to roles. If you're choosing to have multiple busdrivers in the same game, I don't see how resolving their actions deterministically and without having weird edge cases would be a bad choice, it's simply a design decision. If you want all busdrivers to have the same priority, then you could easily decide that if any player is targeted by two or more busdrivers, the busdrivers targeting that player are roleblocked. That leaves all busdrivers at the same priority, but it means that some of the more interesting bus driver interactions can't happen. Does that satisfy you? All busdrivers are given the same priority, but if they try to go to the same house, they can't pass each other on the street, so no bussing occurs. In the end, it's all choices about how you want your game to go, and there's no "correct" way to do it. My way simply has the benefit of being easy to resolve, and not causing any multiplicative effects. Maybe some other aspects are desired in other cases, though. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Example: (a)-P1 RBs P2 (b)-P2 busses P3 and P4 (c)-P4 busses P2 and P5 (d)-P5 shoots P3 You say that RBs that target BD happens first, therefore P1 RBs P2, P4 then busses P2-P5, and P5 shoots P3, killing P3. But P4 would bus P2 and P5, so wouldn't P1 RB P5 instead (thus P5 wouldn't shoot anybody)? You say the actions should be (a)-(b)-(c)-(d), but I say they should be (c)-(a)-(b)-(d) | ||
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
On September 22 2013 09:50 gonzaw wrote: But what if a RB RBs a bus driver, but that bus driver was bussed? Example: (a)-P1 RBs P2 (b)-P2 busses P3 and P4 (c)-P4 busses P2 and P5 (d)-P5 shoots P3 You say that RBs that target BD happens first, therefore P1 RBs P2, P4 then busses P2-P5, and P5 shoots P3, killing P3. But P4 would bus P2 and P5, so wouldn't P1 RB P5 instead (thus P5 wouldn't shoot anybody)? You say the actions should be (a)-(b)-(c)-(d), but I say they should be (c)-(a)-(b)-(d) I dont know what is done in the games where they have BDs, but I expect either RBs apply to targets before BDs and RBs RB whoever they planned to. Or RBs happen after BDs and BDs are un blockable (ala operator precedence) I like this test case. (a)-P1 RBs P2 (b)-P2 busses P3 and P4 (c)-P4 busses P2 and P3 (IGrok combined effect swaps P2 <-> P4) (d)-P4 shoots P2 (P4 is a road raging bus driver (has a gun)) 1) Does P4 shoot self, 2) get RB'd from shooting self. 3) Shoot P3 Note that 1) followed by 2) is funniest doesn't count as sometime that outcome wont be funniest. (edit: actually have not thought of case where its not yet...) Re: your earlier post, I doubt we have anyone with large enough messiah complex to try that. Sprinkle little pearls before swine, or jump a few puddles, maybe, but that is unless of course that was a Fruedian breadcrumb at the end. If we are looking for a plausible excuse why busdrivers get Rb'd RB's role block people. Bus drivers change two people's locations (houses) Vigilanties shoot people in houses ... its dark (they shoot people in the house). Cops check people by going though their possessions in their houses... (cant be bus driven) Cops check people by pinching DNA swabs (to check for the scum mutagen) in the dark.... can be bus driven. You could as host make up a special vigilanti with night goggles that shoots people... (AKA cant be bus driven) You could as host make up a day bus driver ... (to redirect day vigs and cops) Other RBs nail the door shut at locations and can be bus driven. Some Jks take their prisoners at the start of the night, and lock them up, immune to driving. Some Jks bag them after dark in a house and can be bus driven. ... Talking of bus drivers... typically doctors, Jks cant protect themselves or the same person two nights running. Does exposed doc, hidden bus driver, circumvent whatever balance that was meant to achieve? Do docs with bus drivers need special clause, physician cannot heal thyself ever, to simply nerf that? (edit: or same with saving the prime scum nk which, could be done with hidden BD and hidden doc... thus: 'Attempts to heals self or same person twice for any reason(BD) fail.' as the nerf. ) On September 22 2013 09:39 Mr. Wiggles wrote: If you want all busdrivers to have the same priority, then you could easily decide that if any player is targeted by two or more busdrivers, the busdrivers targeting that player are roleblocked. That leaves all busdrivers at the same priority, but it means that some of the more interesting bus driver interactions can't happen. Does that satisfy you? All busdrivers are given the same priority, but if they try to go to the same house, they can't pass each other on the street, so no bussing occurs. In the end, it's all choices about how you want your game to go, and there's no "correct" way to do it. My way simply has the benefit of being easy to resolve, and not causing any multiplicative effects. Maybe some other aspects are desired in other cases, though. Indeed it is only about choices about how you as host want your game to go, you can prioritise the mechanics meeting some criteria that appeals to you personally or one that is fun for other people to play. (being understandable and/or logically plausible (has a back story) may or may not add to the fun to play aspect for some people.) In some real sense every possible mechanic is fine providing its fun to play for the people that do. previous solution to equal priority bussing. + Show Spoiler [intersecting busses] + | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
It either doesn't work, or it works in a way you don't want it to. Fuck the guy who introduced Bus Drivers to this game. I think mafia is the only game in the world that has a mechanic like this one...EVEN WHEN IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MAFIA /mindfuck_mafia_really_what_is_wrong_with_you | ||
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