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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
On September 18 2013 11:33 ObviousOne wrote: In my world, both B and C die. But if C is shot, only A dies. hence the explosion. 1 bullet, 2 people. It seems like that should have been an... (•_•) ( •_•)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■) Obvious One. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25555 Posts
On September 18 2013 11:36 iGrok wrote: hence the explosion. 1 bullet, 2 people. It seems like that should have been an... (•_•) ( •_•)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■) Obvious One. it's funny how easily i grokked it | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25555 Posts
On September 18 2013 11:39 ObviousOne wrote: Why would you want to solve explosion? busdrivers bus A-B A-C B-C you shoot A, what happens | ||
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
On September 18 2013 11:39 ObviousOne wrote: Why would you want to solve explosion? Because it makes games swing wildly out of control | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
On September 18 2013 11:31 ObviousOne wrote: Describe explosion for the uninitiated (me) ninja's (i spent a while writing) I cant be certain what IGrok meant, there is however a combinatorial explosion of possible interactions between the bus drivers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combinatorial_explosion Under your system there is an explosion of people who are likely to get targeted by whoever has KP. Under BHs system, its not combinatorial explosion but the number of people moved rises linearly with with the number of drivers, From a game design point of view the cancelling closed loops of bus drives, limits the amount that having N busdrivers in a game utterly dominates the game leaving every other player feeling they have no control at all as whatever power their role lets them exert on the game is simply redirect at the whim of bus drivers mindlessly (as they have no idea what actions they are redirecting (good or bad) (Cop checks green on marv are great for town.. fancy knowing marv is town...) That bus drivers modify other bus drivers also means that bus drivers are not in possession of absolute knowledge either. The positive benefit of some finite amount of (compulsive town?) bus driving is that then town cops cant be 100% certain of their checks and so all lynches must also rely partly on do I believe the check result (AKA play like VT, but be aided by your role) Not check your brain at the door and simply YOLO the game away leaning on your role as crutch. Why compulsive town? I suspect town would win more games if pretty much no townies ever chose to bus drive. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
On September 18 2013 11:46 ObviousOne wrote: I'm not sure people play a game with 10 bus drivers for the mafia element. Swing is part of the fun! I suspect up to 9 people dying from single vig or mafia KP would 'not' be funny more than once. EBWOPED the 'not' | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
On September 18 2013 12:06 ObviousOne wrote: Is the alternative worse? "All explosions fizzle"? Bad? Why bad? Apparently only bad if I am playing. If you are playing explosions causing wild swings in the outcome that no players effectively have no control over are apparently good. I prefer the outcome of the games I play is not effectively determined by RNG but is causally related to skill utilised by players. ultimately that is because, "this is me" | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On September 18 2013 12:10 AxleGreaser wrote: Apparently only bad if I am playing. If you are playing explosions causing wild swings in the outcome that no players effectively have no control over are apparently good. I prefer the outcome of the games I play is not effectively determined by RNG but is causally related to skill utilised by players. ultimately that is because, "this is me" I disagree with the assertion that "players effectively have no control over" their bussing. They control one spoke of the wheel, but the wheel turns regardless. Be one with the wheel, or at least be wary, for the wheel has a tread and that tread could one day be imprinted upon various body parts. To follow behind the wheel is to be inert. To let the wheel follow you is the way of the wise. For those who are part of the wheel are inseparable to or from the fate of other spokes, and the spokes are strong when they are many. Just as many branches, weak when alone, are strong when made a bunch, so too shall players be strong when they band together and their spokes are unified in a theory. I say these things because they must be spoken. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Player A is scum Player B is town Player C is cop C checks A A and B are bussed What does C get? 1)"A is town" or 2)"B is town"? You guys make it seem like it's the 1st one...but if his target is changed from A to B, why wouldn't his check reflect that change and tell him he actually checked B? Or are you going to discriminate 2 "types" of bussing, one where C gets the (1) check, and one where C gets the (2) check? If so how do you define each? On (1) it's like C interacts with A for making his action, but under the covers the "action" is transferred over to B, then computed, then goes back to A, then goes back to C. So C always "interacts" with A, so he always gets the "A is town" check. His interface is A, yet the action was altered in the way. On (2) C targets A and tries to find his alignment, but his targetting is bussed over to B, so instead he goes over to B and find his alignment. There is no interaction with A, A is not his interface, thus he gets the "B is town" check. So which one is true? Damn, mafia is harder than differential equations encoded in constructive type theory written in doctor's handwriting. And I wanted to create a program that does this automatically. Fuck that, not even Turing can solve this shit. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
So, with a whole bunch of bus drives, you get a whole bunch of interconnected players in a "bus channel". I'd say these are the properties we want that bus channel to have: 1)If an action is done on any player of that channel, the action is redirected to another single player from that channel. 2)There shouldn't be a player in that channel, that gets actions from 2 different players redirected to him 3)(Optional) If the channel is complex, then ideally if an action on player A is redirected to B, an action on player B is NOT redirected to A. This way you don't have "closed loops" of redirection. For example A-B C-D E-F (when all of them are interconnected, for example in MY MONSTER (lol) ). So, do you agree with these principles of multiple bus driving? Because we have to start somewhere. Also notice how if there are an odd number of players in that channel (1) and (2) can't happen simultaneously. If there are even number of players, they CAN indeed happen (well...maybe), but if they are odd we are fucked (if you agree with the above principles). Also (3) can happen at times and at times not. If there are only 4 players connected, it CANT happen, but if there are >6 it can, depending on the connections. | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
- an action on any of those players resolves on exactly one player who may or may not be the initial target. - the final target is not determined randomly - there is no hidden or explicit system of actor or action priorities - there is no hidden or explicit system of target priorities. I think the least objectionable system based on what igrok has said he wants would be a deterministic system of target priorities. Basically, look at each bus as a temporary list swap and actions on the bussed players as targeting spots on the list. 1. Create a sublist of all the players involved in a bussing network, in order of main list priority. 2. All bus actions resolve simultaneously and swap their initial two targets. 3. Resolve conflicts using initial list order So if your initial list was 1. A 2. B 3. C 4. D And all four players are bussed with D, then you have 1. D 2. D 3. D 4. A/B/C Then you resolve the list: 1. D 2. A 3. B 4. C So non-bus actions which targeted A now target D. You also have B->A, C->B, and D->C. This also opens up interesting gameplay possibilities since everyone would know the resolution method - if you think one player is going to get bussed, you can defensively bus them with someone higher on the player list, etc. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
A B C D Busdrivers. "For the people that can't follow anymore" | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On September 18 2013 14:41 gonzaw wrote: Okay, let's try something else. So, with a whole bunch of bus drives, you get a whole bunch of interconnected players in a "bus channel". I'd say these are the properties we want that bus channel to have: 1)If an action is done on any player of that channel, the action is redirected to another single player from that channel. 2)There shouldn't be a player in that channel, that gets actions from 2 different players redirected to him 3)(Optional) If the channel is complex, then ideally if an action on player A is redirected to B, an action on player B is NOT redirected to A. This way you don't have "closed loops" of redirection. For example A-B C-D E-F (when all of them are interconnected, for example in MY MONSTER (lol) ). So, do you agree with these principles of multiple bus driving? Because we have to start somewhere. Also notice how if there are an odd number of players in that channel (1) and (2) can't happen simultaneously. If there are even number of players, they CAN indeed happen (well...maybe), but if they are odd we are fucked (if you agree with the above principles). Also (3) can happen at times and at times not. If there are only 4 players connected, it CANT happen, but if there are >6 it can, depending on the connections. You can have 1 and 2 with odd numbers if you allow closed loops though | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
![[image loading]](http://imgace.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/school-bus-driving-class-fail..jpg) | ||
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