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TL Mafia XXVIII

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 05 2010 02:54 GMT
#23
unfortunately have to skip this one.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 12 2010 18:46 GMT
#80
/in
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 13 2010 19:54 GMT
#88
On July 14 2010 04:44 youngminii wrote:
^ I totally think you made those posts in the wrong thread.

Lies, this is exactly where they belong.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 14 2010 13:18 GMT
#98
I am OK with the bomber but don't think they should kill visitors - it makes for a more luck dependent game.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 14 2010 18:22 GMT
#103
IT can't kill during the day - it would make them un-lynchable and greatly complicate the lynching/voting process (ex: kill someone 1 minute before the voting deadline).
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-15 19:15:02
July 15 2010 18:46 GMT
#138
How does the clue change the game dynamic?

It gives people something to talk about. However, "good" clues are non-obvious and confusing, not really helpful at catching reds. In the end this is still supposed to be a game of mafia, where information is generated primarily by the interaction between players, not the mod.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 15 2010 19:47 GMT
#141
On July 16 2010 04:29 YellowInk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 16 2010 03:46 citi.zen wrote:
How does the clue change the game dynamic?

It gives people something to talk about. However, "good" clues are non-obvious and confusing, not really helpful at catching reds. In the end this is still supposed to be a game of mafia, where information is generated primarily by the interaction between players, not the mod.
I agree with this. The other impact of clues is that at the endgame you're going to have multiple clues pointing at the last couple mafia which can make it really tough for scum to pull out a close victory. Clues definitely help the town in the 'close' games.

I also would not like to burden any mod with the onus of making fair and balanced clues.

Take my opinion as you will - I'm not currently signed up to play. I don't want to have a thick multi-game overlap like I did for nearly a week between TMMM and HP. Caller's game doesn't seem to be in a hurry to start, though, so I may end up joining.

The endgame balance should ideally be handled through the rules and roles in any game. If clues were to introduce some imbalance you'd have to change something else. Not sure it's a huge issue... just saying.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 16 2010 22:44 GMT
#172
How is it that these things always start on weekends?
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 17 2010 01:56 GMT
#199
Just to confirm: pm-ing is allowed, correct?
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 17 2010 03:18 GMT
#223
On July 17 2010 12:07 Pandain wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 17 2010 11:50 Divinek wrote:
On July 17 2010 11:32 Pandain wrote:
Vote: Pandain


4. You cannot vote for yourself or anyone dead or outside the game.


fuuuuck, then what do you do when you realize your life is meaningless in a crime ridden, police nonexistant world?

Fake roleclaim medic on day 1. That should take care of it.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 17 2010 03:24 GMT
#226
No problem.

## vote Darth
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 17 2010 03:35 GMT
#230
On July 17 2010 12:33 rastaban wrote:
Wow the last I checked, we were waiting for people things sure do move fast.

I don't know what to do without cult based mafia recruiting, but so far in every game I have played citi.zen has been the GF so thats as good a reason as any. (ok I have only played one game but statisticly it looks sound )


## vote citi.zen

Damn it, caught again!
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 18 2010 03:03 GMT
#352
A few comments on how I see the game going:

1. PMs are allowed so trust circles are the way to go. Sooner or later they will form because of Dt checks, medic protection, vet soaking up a hit when we know they are the lone vet, etc. When this happens we'll be in good shape.
2. BCs list is fine, but many people seem to miss its point entirely.
3. There is no roleblocker, but there is a suicide bomber. Be very careful with your circles. Speak through confirmed townies if possible.
4. We lynch an inactive and/or bad player day one. Hyperbola is a fine target. Bumatlarge is ok too, bringing grudges from prior games here can derail us for many pages.
5. I already voted for Darth, why is it not counted? I will likely change it, but still!
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 18 2010 06:41 GMT
#383
On July 18 2010 12:55 youngminii wrote:
Oh yeah I totally forgot lynching an inactive is exactly the same as abstaining. Heh, obvious lack of logic in my plans.

I am more concerned with this:

On July 18 2010 09:48 youngminii wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 18 2010 05:09 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Secondly, we should set up potential lists of people to watch out for until they can be confirmed. I would start with

BloodyC0bbler
Foolishness
DTA
YoungMirii
Citizen

I believe us 5 should be under the most scrutiny at the beginning of this game.

What, why am I included in a scum list

Anyways, I've been spamming Starcraft 2 all night and I'm dead tired but since we haven't really moved out of RVS it looks like I haven't missed out on much.

I have a question for BM. What happens if everyone votes to abstain? If the answer is a no lynch, then I suggest everyone change their votes to abstain for the first day. A no lynch (in my experience) on the first day is generally beneficial to town in a standard-ish setup. We'll also get all the modkills out of the way which will narrow down the list of potential scum. I especially do not want to accidentally go and lynch a blue role, that'd be horrible.

In fact, I have another question (I may have just missed this in the OP), are roles flipped upon death? I'd assume so but I just want to make sure.

Just for some pre-emptive planning for the night: DTs check 'good' players, especially players that are unlikely to go inactive. Medics should protect whoever they want, generally you'd want to protect the person that seems the most towny and frequently posts. Of course, if you feel that you should be doing something else, you should trust your instincts.

Re-read BC's post to see what that list is really about. In fact, your entire post is a mess - asking about stuff that was already covered, pretending to give useful advice to the blues and so on. I can't say I've played a lot with you, but based on last game these sort of mistakes are not that common from you.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 18 2010 06:44 GMT
#384
As far as I can tell ketomai has not posted anything yet.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 18 2010 14:13 GMT
#421
youngminii, you seem to have a lot of trouble reading a simple statement so let me clarify it for you: you did well last game, hence I think you are a pretty good player. I never implied otherwise.

Moving along: my main goal today is not to pretend like I can sniff out a red on day 1, but to get everyone to participate. Foolishness and ketomai have not posted. I have hope for foolishness know he a solid player so I would rather not see him go this early. I will vote for ketomai.

Unvote
##vote ketomai
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 18 2010 15:23 GMT
#424
Youngminii and Darth have been acting strange, but right now I would advise keeping an eye on them vs. lynching. We won't win this on day one.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 18 2010 17:24 GMT
#438
The "OMG if you voted for hyperbola you have some explaining to do" post strikes me as the kind of thing that will sidetrack discussion for a long time. I don't like it.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 18 2010 22:12 GMT
#473
On July 19 2010 05:17 DarthThienAn wrote:
ebwop: did I say YellowInk? I think I meant youngminii. lol.

Anyway, later all. Probably be back after the vote. Hope you guys don't kill me.

Death Post:
+ Show Spoiler +
Townie

There are no death posts or coroners in this set-up. Roles are revealed by the mod.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 19 2010 00:58 GMT
#489
On July 19 2010 08:25 Foolishness wrote:
Switching my Vote from abstain:

##Vote BloodyCobbler

Just based on bad vibes so far. I am busy irl the past few days, but I will be active permanently by the first night for the rest of the game. If the first night goes by and I haven't made an active contribution feel free to hold me accountable.

The most interesting development thus far. Can't say I disagree but would be very uncomfortable voting for him purely on day one "vibes".
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 19 2010 19:14 GMT
#527
On July 20 2010 03:44 Divinek wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2010 01:34 Roffles wrote:
Nah OpZ, not just one shitty post by BrownBear. Nearly all his posts are shitty. Don't really wanna dig up the post, but I do recall him voting first, then saying "I'm gonna go read".

Like what the hell is that? I'm gonna blindly vote, then read, then afterwards he just makes it even better by saying, "Oh, I could change my vote. But nahhhhh"


yeah read the thread but didnt contribute anything and based on what his posts said he's probably worse than inactive at this point cause he actually voted

i see people say that alot 'oh shit rl busy im gonna read thread and post some stuff' then they dont, they just say this to take focus off them and possible votes

im for sure throwing my vote on him as soon as day comes so he can hopefully be forced to actually post something

I like this. You will go on my "likely town" list.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 19 2010 20:04 GMT
#531
On July 20 2010 05:00 DarthThienAn wrote:
Analyze me! Analyze meeeee!

Reddish shade of brown of course.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 19 2010 20:40 GMT
#533
On July 20 2010 05:22 flamewheel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2010 05:04 citi.zen wrote:
On July 20 2010 05:00 DarthThienAn wrote:
Analyze me! Analyze meeeee!

Reddish shade of brown of course.

Damn it, why is that breed so resilient?
Time to do some extermination.

I supply the Darth, you bring the lightning.

Seriously, where is everyone?
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 20 2010 01:09 GMT
#579
On July 20 2010 09:31 Foolishness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2010 09:25 Pandain wrote:
Hmm time passes too fast. As this is my first mafia game, I'm extra afraid I'm going to die. So in case I die, I'll live something that players can easily check on if they want to. It's the posts by each player in the game, in case a player wants to check up on something.

Tree.Hugger:
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5740578
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5747605http://www.teamliqhttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5749524uid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5749520http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5750215
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5752728
https://tl.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5754219[/url
post_id=5755140" target="_blank">http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5755140

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5758069
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5761145


BrownBear
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5612556
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5740359
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5740736
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5755546
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5755551
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5755555
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5756205


Oh god there are 600 posts. How could I be so stupid -.-. Unless people really want me to keep making these(which I'll of course do, gladly) I'll be doing it farily slowly.

+ Show Spoiler +
This was harder than I thought . Oh well.

You'd have an easier time if you look at lakrismamma or citi.zen

I know you're not a bad player, so this attempt to cast doubts on me out of the blue strikes me as odd. Especially since you're grouping me with lakrismama - which makes zero sense, as you would know full well it if you were honestly searching for reds. Look at his posts:

On July 18 2010 15:25 lakrismamma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 18 2010 12:03 citi.zen wrote:
A few comments on how I see the game going:

1. PMs are allowed so trust circles are the way to go. Sooner or later they will form because of Dt checks, medic protection, vet soaking up a hit when we know they are the lone vet, etc. When this happens we'll be in good shape.
2. BCs list is fine, but many people seem to miss its point entirely.
3. There is no roleblocker, but there is a suicide bomber. Be very careful with your circles. Speak through confirmed townies if possible.
4. We lynch an inactive and/or bad player day one. Hyperbola is a fine target. Bumatlarge is ok too, bringing grudges from prior games here can derail us for many pages.
5. I already voted for Darth, why is it not counted? I will likely change it, but still!


Good post!

Abstaining is stupid. Part of why suggesting voting for for inactive persons is to make that person become active to defend himself therefore we get more to read from and mafia cant hide in the inactives.

I think Hyperbola has defended himself pretty well.

##vote LaxerCannon

He is usually more active so get to it Laxer.


On July 19 2010 03:46 lakrismamma wrote:
I think youngminii has a point. I think we should keep an eye on hyperbola and him but not lynch them.
DTA is probably just inactive town. But in that case we have no need for him either. So he is a decent alternative.

I will follow citizen though to create a third alternative.

##Unvote
##vote ketomai

Transparent much? No mafia, in any game that I have seen, risks showing this "support" towards each other on day 1. You know this. And you Sir are now looking very red.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 20 2010 01:27 GMT
#580
By the way, should something happen to me don't assume lakrismama is innocent. The only point here is foolishness is playing very odd.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 20 2010 01:45 GMT
#583
It's probably better for dts to find town alligned players right now. This gives them a mouth to speak through and a person to build around. W/E, we'll see what everyone did...
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 20 2010 12:17 GMT
#689
On July 20 2010 20:18 Jayme wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2010 15:38 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
BrownBear i'd like to see more input from the rest of the town but i guess my sentiments on vets claiming boils to this:

1. the town wants the mafia to inadvertently waste hits on vets
2. vets claiming practically guarantees that this will not happen


You have to balance the fact that you have a central confirmed townie with which to operate from. Randomly hitting a Vet is so rare as it is that I just don't see a huge benefit in keeping them hidden when one has obviously been hit...or the medic got a really lucky protection on someone.

I personally like the vet claiming idea because on their own they are a pretty weak blue role.

The DTs had two checks last night. Unless they both hit red, we already have the start of a circle, maybe two. I would trust these checks before te vet claim at this point, since the dts picked them more "randomly".

That said, I doubt the mafia would fake claim this early. It gives them very little for a pretty big risk: if another vet is hit/lynched, the GF is toast. It would also mean they purposely wasted a kp.

So we should be in good shape. Assume the claim was genuine but don't take stupid risks, we don't need them. The big thing is we didn't lose any blues, and the mafia only killed one person.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 20 2010 14:43 GMT
#696
Actually, a medic protection claim would be a bit harder to verify than a veteran claim given neither medic knows what the other one is up to.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 20 2010 15:00 GMT
#698
On July 20 2010 23:58 zeks wrote:
i'm more inclined to believe d3 is town from a medic claim than a vet claim

if he false claims medic protection, medics would know whats up immediately.

if he claims vet there could be the slight possibility of:

mafia sends in 1 hit, d3 claims vet tricks us all into thinking he got hit and infiltrates town circles.

regardless i'll give him the benefit of the doubt that mafia didn't pull off what i said above.

##Vote DarthThienAn

You're playing way out of your normal character, and you're no Bill Murray.

Either you're scum or trying too hard to not get hit by being abnoxious.

Please explain the logic of the underlined statement to me. The OP states there are 2/2 medics alive, so how doe either one of them know what the other one did?
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 20 2010 15:35 GMT
#700
On July 21 2010 00:32 zeks wrote:
you're right i guess we don't know for sure.

but I think its highly unlikely for mafia to bank on the fact that both medics dont know what the other one did to claim a hit just on the fact that its so risky.

not saying d3 is clear 100% but i just think scum would be kinda dumb to pull something like that so early

Are you thinking about the game much or just trying not to seem inactive?

Which reminds me - what happened to BC?
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 20 2010 17:23 GMT
#711
Quick question for BM: did the mafia get to choose their GF in this game, or was is assigned by you?
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 20 2010 18:08 GMT
#716
On July 21 2010 02:28 rastaban wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2010 02:23 citi.zen wrote:
Quick question for BM: did the mafia get to choose their GF in this game, or was is assigned by you?



This is the sample note from the OP with the relevant part bold.

Show nested quote +
You are a Mafia Goon!
You get to pick a Godfather out of your team, though it may not be a suicide bomber, on the first night. Every night, you may send in kills in relation to your Kill Power. You win when you outnumber the town, or when they have no way of winning.

your team consists of:
1. Bill Murray
2. Ver
3. Qatol
4. Camlito
5. Ace
6. You

OK, the usual set-up. Just curious.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 20 2010 18:29 GMT
#719
On July 21 2010 03:21 Misder wrote:
I would also like to point out this post by citi.zen.

+ Show Spoiler +
On July 20 2010 10:09 citi.zen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2010 09:31 Foolishness wrote:
On July 20 2010 09:25 Pandain wrote:
Hmm time passes too fast. As this is my first mafia game, I'm extra afraid I'm going to die. So in case I die, I'll live something that players can easily check on if they want to. It's the posts by each player in the game, in case a player wants to check up on something.

Tree.Hugger:
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5740578
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5747605http://www.teamliqhttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5749524uid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5749520http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5750215
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5752728
https://tl.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5754219[/url
post_id=5755140" target="_blank">http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5755140

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5758069
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5761145


BrownBear
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5612556
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5740359
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5740736
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5755546
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5755551
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5755555
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=5756205


Oh god there are 600 posts. How could I be so stupid -.-. Unless people really want me to keep making these(which I'll of course do, gladly) I'll be doing it farily slowly.

+ Show Spoiler +
This was harder than I thought . Oh well.

You'd have an easier time if you look at lakrismamma or citi.zen

I know you're not a bad player, so this attempt to cast doubts on me out of the blue strikes me as odd. Especially since you're grouping me with lakrismama - which makes zero sense, as you would know full well it if you were honestly searching for reds. Look at his posts:

Show nested quote +
On July 18 2010 15:25 lakrismamma wrote:
On July 18 2010 12:03 citi.zen wrote:
A few comments on how I see the game going:

1. PMs are allowed so trust circles are the way to go. Sooner or later they will form because of Dt checks, medic protection, vet soaking up a hit when we know they are the lone vet, etc. When this happens we'll be in good shape.
2. BCs list is fine, but many people seem to miss its point entirely.
3. There is no roleblocker, but there is a suicide bomber. Be very careful with your circles. Speak through confirmed townies if possible.
4. We lynch an inactive and/or bad player day one. Hyperbola is a fine target. Bumatlarge is ok too, bringing grudges from prior games here can derail us for many pages.
5. I already voted for Darth, why is it not counted? I will likely change it, but still!


Good post!

Abstaining is stupid. Part of why suggesting voting for for inactive persons is to make that person become active to defend himself therefore we get more to read from and mafia cant hide in the inactives.

I think Hyperbola has defended himself pretty well.

##vote LaxerCannon

He is usually more active so get to it Laxer.


Show nested quote +
On July 19 2010 03:46 lakrismamma wrote:
I think youngminii has a point. I think we should keep an eye on hyperbola and him but not lynch them.
DTA is probably just inactive town. But in that case we have no need for him either. So he is a decent alternative.

I will follow citizen though to create a third alternative.

##Unvote
##vote ketomai

Transparent much? No mafia, in any game that I have seen, risks showing this "support" towards each other on day 1. You know this. And you Sir are now looking very red.



Foolishness has been pointed out as having odd behavior. He may have been a future lynching target. Why would the mafia target someone who is suspicious of being red?

Good collection of posts man, congrats! You left out this one:


On July 19 2010 08:25 Foolishness wrote:
Switching my Vote from abstain:

##Vote BloodyCobbler

Just based on bad vibes so far. I am busy irl the past few days, but I will be active permanently by the first night for the rest of the game. If the first night goes by and I haven't made an active contribution feel free to hold me accountable.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 20 2010 20:20 GMT
#730
I don't want to vote for either DTA or BB for some reason. Good thing I have another day to think about this...
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 20 2010 21:09 GMT
#741
On July 21 2010 05:56 DarthThienAn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2010 05:51 Pandain wrote:
On July 21 2010 05:46 DarthThienAn wrote:

Actually, the mafia made a huge mistake - one of their hits failed, or they stacked their hits on Foolishness, a townie. A smart/good player, but only 1 townie nonetheless. The less people there are, the greater their voting power, it's stupid to stack on night 1. So to me, the statement IS false, but the reason why it's suspicious is that no one would ever genuinely say that -> mafia.



Haha, you're right about that mistake. However, I thought it had been determined that D3 was also hit but protected by a medic. So they didn't stack their hits, one of their hits simply failed. And the more important thing is why would no one say that? Heck, I might say that. "Hey the mafia are doing pretty good." Just to be sure when I'm voting, please explain more.

+ Show Spoiler +
If Subversion IS mafia, i'm so going to kill myself.


There's the possibility that d3 is a mafia faking taking a hit. It's low chance, but not 0% so I didn't leave it out.

Other than that, he's either a veteran and/or got medic protection.

What do you mean? My thoughts: Mafia FAILED last night strategically. Subversion was NOT being sarcastic/joking (look at his post). So why would he say that? Furthermore, even if the mafia HAD failed, saying that "mafia aren't making too many mistakes" is an extremely odd statement to make. Sure, it's not the best lead, but it's better than me, and I'm willing to let BB redeem himself if he happens to be a terrible townie. Subversion, on the other hand, doesn't seem to be on the path to correction at all.

I don't know... I am leaning with Pandain here. Subversion is a brand new player who does not know what to expect in these games. I can see him think... "How do you catch mafia? You watch for mistakes! Have we caught any? Nope. Ah - so thus far they aren't making too many mistakes."

I see no huge red flag. That said, he does not strike me as someone useful for the town so I am OK losing him if there are no better candidates.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 20 2010 21:28 GMT
#744
On July 21 2010 06:13 DarthThienAn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2010 06:09 citi.zen wrote:
On July 21 2010 05:56 DarthThienAn wrote:
On July 21 2010 05:51 Pandain wrote:
On July 21 2010 05:46 DarthThienAn wrote:

Actually, the mafia made a huge mistake - one of their hits failed, or they stacked their hits on Foolishness, a townie. A smart/good player, but only 1 townie nonetheless. The less people there are, the greater their voting power, it's stupid to stack on night 1. So to me, the statement IS false, but the reason why it's suspicious is that no one would ever genuinely say that -> mafia.



Haha, you're right about that mistake. However, I thought it had been determined that D3 was also hit but protected by a medic. So they didn't stack their hits, one of their hits simply failed. And the more important thing is why would no one say that? Heck, I might say that. "Hey the mafia are doing pretty good." Just to be sure when I'm voting, please explain more.

+ Show Spoiler +
If Subversion IS mafia, i'm so going to kill myself.


There's the possibility that d3 is a mafia faking taking a hit. It's low chance, but not 0% so I didn't leave it out.

Other than that, he's either a veteran and/or got medic protection.

What do you mean? My thoughts: Mafia FAILED last night strategically. Subversion was NOT being sarcastic/joking (look at his post). So why would he say that? Furthermore, even if the mafia HAD failed, saying that "mafia aren't making too many mistakes" is an extremely odd statement to make. Sure, it's not the best lead, but it's better than me, and I'm willing to let BB redeem himself if he happens to be a terrible townie. Subversion, on the other hand, doesn't seem to be on the path to correction at all.

I don't know... I am leaning with Pandain here. Subversion is a brand new player who does not know what to expect in these games. I can see him think... "How do you catch mafia? You watch for mistakes! Have we caught any? Nope. Ah - so thus far they aren't making too many mistakes."

I see no huge red flag. That said, he does not strike me as someone useful for the town so I am OK losing him if there are no better candidates.


No huge red flag, but it's better than BB and myself. ^_^.

Thanks for the honest comment, I understand where you are coming from.

I am a bit puzzled as to the rest of the players though. Every time someone screams out a name for some trivial reason, there is a voting train:

BB is playing bad, omg! DTA is playing different!!! Subversion said the mafia made no big mistakes thus far, wow!I Hyperbola did... whatever he did, he deserved it!

Voting like this can turn out OK if you are lucky, but in most cases does not really help the town. Zero cost to cast a vote I guess... if you are wrong... so was everyone else... if you are right... ZOMG THIS KID IS PRO!!!!
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 20 2010 21:30 GMT
#745
On July 21 2010 06:27 Amber[LighT] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2010 06:09 citi.zen wrote:
On July 21 2010 05:56 DarthThienAn wrote:
On July 21 2010 05:51 Pandain wrote:
On July 21 2010 05:46 DarthThienAn wrote:

Actually, the mafia made a huge mistake - one of their hits failed, or they stacked their hits on Foolishness, a townie. A smart/good player, but only 1 townie nonetheless. The less people there are, the greater their voting power, it's stupid to stack on night 1. So to me, the statement IS false, but the reason why it's suspicious is that no one would ever genuinely say that -> mafia.



Haha, you're right about that mistake. However, I thought it had been determined that D3 was also hit but protected by a medic. So they didn't stack their hits, one of their hits simply failed. And the more important thing is why would no one say that? Heck, I might say that. "Hey the mafia are doing pretty good." Just to be sure when I'm voting, please explain more.

+ Show Spoiler +
If Subversion IS mafia, i'm so going to kill myself.


There's the possibility that d3 is a mafia faking taking a hit. It's low chance, but not 0% so I didn't leave it out.

Other than that, he's either a veteran and/or got medic protection.

What do you mean? My thoughts: Mafia FAILED last night strategically. Subversion was NOT being sarcastic/joking (look at his post). So why would he say that? Furthermore, even if the mafia HAD failed, saying that "mafia aren't making too many mistakes" is an extremely odd statement to make. Sure, it's not the best lead, but it's better than me, and I'm willing to let BB redeem himself if he happens to be a terrible townie. Subversion, on the other hand, doesn't seem to be on the path to correction at all.

I don't know... I am leaning with Pandain here. Subversion is a brand new player who does not know what to expect in these games. I can see him think... "How do you catch mafia? You watch for mistakes! Have we caught any? Nope. Ah - so thus far they aren't making too many mistakes."

I see no huge red flag. That said, he does not strike me as someone useful for the town so I am OK losing him if there are no better candidates.


Subversion isn't that new. He played in BM's Harry Potter mafia, not sure if he's played in others... don't discount someones skill because they haven't played mafia on these boards before.

I am not discounting his skills. I am saying I can understand a new player thinking "the mafia have not made big mistakes thus far". That is all. Playing 100x games matters much less than thinking clearly for yourself.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 21 2010 14:38 GMT
#851
On July 21 2010 20:33 zeks wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2010 23:58 zeks wrote:
i'm more inclined to believe d3 is town from a medic claim than a vet claim

if he false claims medic protection, medics would know whats up immediately.

if he claims vet there could be the slight possibility of:

mafia sends in 1 hit, d3 claims vet tricks us all into thinking he got hit and infiltrates town circles.

regardless i'll give him the benefit of the doubt that mafia didn't pull off what i said above.

##Vote DarthThienAn

You're playing way out of your normal character, and you're no Bill Murray.

Either you're scum or trying too hard to not get hit by being abnoxious.



Since I didn't bold and my vote didn't count:

##Vote DarthThienAn

Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me a bout that post.

## vote zeks
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 21 2010 14:48 GMT
#852
Oh, I could also be persuaded to vote for misder if you guys like him more than zeks.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 21 2010 17:09 GMT
#861
On July 22 2010 01:43 Misder wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2010 23:48 citi.zen wrote:
Oh, I could also be persuaded to vote for misder if you guys like him more than zeks.


Uh... Is there a reason why I'm under suspicion? If there is, what is it?

Glad you asked! I am intrigued by the trifecta of you/zeks/BC. If one of you turned red, I'd heavily suspect the others. The converse obviously does not necessarily hold.

BC concluded in his long post that zeks and misder are likely innocents who left the hyperbola bandwagon when they realized what a monster of a creation is was, and that it was probably leading to lynching an innocent player (hello day 1 lynches). Seems like a pretty strong thing to infer, but the man has mad experience, so who knows. Both zeks and misder use the same argument for their switch: they never voted with any conviction, only to make hyperbola become more active. Then foolishness got killed and the ever so helpful misder put together a post on foolishnes' accusations about me and darth, conveniently forgetting to include the fact that foolishness voted for BC. This post was an obvious attempt to start suspicion, but mysteriously misder never followed up on it once Amber 'splained it to him:

On July 21 2010 03:29 Amber[LighT] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2010 03:21 Misder wrote:
I would also like to point out this post by citi.zen. [nr: the rest of the quote does not paste well - go find it yourselves]


Because then it puts the finger-pointers in a position when players, such as yourself, go back and analyze the posts. This is actually a common ruse to cause the town to run around in circles as townies battle townies. It's not to say your analysis is invalid, but it could just be a breadcrumb trail to no-wheres-ville setup and managed by the mafia.


Most townies enjoy debating their hunches, mafia prefers to start shit and then lay low - this is exactly what you did here.

So yeah, I think you make an excellent lynching candidate. If you turned red we'd have a lead on other players. If you are not lynched you or zeks should get checked tonight (not BC - if red he would be the GF who put himself up for checking).

That's my little conspiracy theory of the day!
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 21 2010 21:38 GMT
#913
It makes me sad that the real choice is indeed between chaoser and Subversion. I'm a bit risk averse so I will vote for Chaoser.

unvote
##vote Chaoser


+ Show Spoiler +
Meh.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 21 2010 21:49 GMT
#919
BTW, if you guys continue to vote for Subversion you need to take note of this post:

On July 21 2010 09:09 Subversion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2010 06:09 citi.zen wrote:
On July 21 2010 05:56 DarthThienAn wrote:
On July 21 2010 05:51 Pandain wrote:
On July 21 2010 05:46 DarthThienAn wrote:

Actually, the mafia made a huge mistake - one of their hits failed, or they stacked their hits on Foolishness, a townie. A smart/good player, but only 1 townie nonetheless. The less people there are, the greater their voting power, it's stupid to stack on night 1. So to me, the statement IS false, but the reason why it's suspicious is that no one would ever genuinely say that -> mafia.



Haha, you're right about that mistake. However, I thought it had been determined that D3 was also hit but protected by a medic. So they didn't stack their hits, one of their hits simply failed. And the more important thing is why would no one say that? Heck, I might say that. "Hey the mafia are doing pretty good." Just to be sure when I'm voting, please explain more.

+ Show Spoiler +
If Subversion IS mafia, i'm so going to kill myself.


There's the possibility that d3 is a mafia faking taking a hit. It's low chance, but not 0% so I didn't leave it out.

Other than that, he's either a veteran and/or got medic protection.

What do you mean? My thoughts: Mafia FAILED last night strategically. Subversion was NOT being sarcastic/joking (look at his post). So why would he say that? Furthermore, even if the mafia HAD failed, saying that "mafia aren't making too many mistakes" is an extremely odd statement to make. Sure, it's not the best lead, but it's better than me, and I'm willing to let BB redeem himself if he happens to be a terrible townie. Subversion, on the other hand, doesn't seem to be on the path to correction at all.

I don't know... I am leaning with Pandain here. Subversion is a brand new player who does not know what to expect in these games. I can see him think... "How do you catch mafia? You watch for mistakes! Have we caught any? Nope. Ah - so thus far they aren't making too many mistakes."

I see no huge red flag. That said, he does not strike me as someone useful for the town so I am OK losing him if there are no better candidates.


THANK YOU fucking hell. I played in ONE NIGHT of harry potter mafia, I got temp banned for some stupid joke and got replaced

This is my first game ffs, I didn't realise what I said would make it "oh gg, he's mafia lol, what a fkn moron". I was trying to be useful

Seems like everyone is jumping on my voting bandwagon, I get what I said was stupid now, although I still don't really understand why its a fucknormous mistake. I was simply stating what to me, was a fairly obvious fact. It was kind of a justification for my vote to be honest. I didn't see any major mistakes, I didn't have anyone I felt REALLY deserved a vote, but I didn't wanna abstain and I thought Hyperbola was fucked anyway. So I read what he said and what others said, there didn't really seem like any better choice, so I just voted for him. Like I said, I didn't really think my vote mattered much anyway. I also had Bill up my ass saying I was gonna be modkilled if I didn't vote!

I really don't want to be voted out here, I don't want to roleclaim either, but I can if necessary??
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 21 2010 21:50 GMT
#920
^ Dumb? Yes.

Lynchable? Not so sure I can justify it.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 21 2010 22:18 GMT
#938
I hope you guys will not simply ignore a blue claim. At least discuss it!
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 21 2010 22:21 GMT
#941
On July 22 2010 07:17 DarthThienAn wrote:
unvote
##Vote: chaoser


Someone, quick summary of what chaoser is being lynched?

Good question man. I wanted to lynch midser or zeks personally, but nobody reacted to my post. Not even the people I named, beyond having midseer ask "why" to then fall silent again.

Sigh...
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 22 2010 04:28 GMT
#1301
Perhaps don't play "like chez" next time, eh? Not as easy (or fun) as it may seem!
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 22 2010 14:03 GMT
#1395
On July 22 2010 15:22 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
.... You guys seriously, I go to work, come back and see this mess?

I hope you all learned your lesson. Keep in mind tommorrow, and tonight as everyone realizes how dumb today was, they will go back and re read all the people pushing for these stupid bandwagons. I would center look around players like youngminii, pandain, and pyrr. Those three pushed for the main people who ended up on the lynching block the most. Of those three, youngminii is the one who has the most explaining to do.
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2010 08:32 youngminii wrote:
FoS tree.hugger, bumatlarge, darththienan, chaoser


He then managed to clutter up god knows how much of the thread going after chaoser, then once day lynch ends, he gets into another argument with another player. HE needs to learn to simmer down and think things through logically and post it in a not confrontational manner all the time, or take a time out.

Pandain similar reasons, alot of finger pointing, lots of arguing leading to derailing the thread into the spiral of what the day ran into.

Pyrr for pushing for DTA's lynch, which then offed a townie.

Pyrr is certainly filling up his share of space with useless spam. Paindain I feel is trying really hard and is most likely town. Youngminii I've suspected from day one and have seen nothing to change my mind, he is a different person from last game - active but sloppy, and crankier. I still think misder is a great lynching candidate.

But... this is the problem right here: many shady people, some of whom must be town playing poorly (see Darth). Without some firm information it will be hard to get on the right track. Fortunately we have both DTs and medics alive.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 22 2010 19:32 GMT
#1411
On July 23 2010 03:23 chaoser wrote:
Pyrrhuloxia vote DTA at 19:16
XeliN vote DTA at 20:25
zeks votes DTA at 20:33 (actually voted DTA at 23:58 the previous KST day)
Subversion votes DTA at 21:20

The 3 votes (pyrr,xelin,sub) jump DTA to the top of the list from 3 to 6

citi.zen votes zeks at 23:38 (says he might vote misder if convinced)
misder unvotes DTA, votes chaoser at 1:32 (drops DTA to 5, chaoser to 4)
Amber[Light] unvotes BB votes Subversion at 1:34 (Subversion at top with 6, BB at 4)
BB votes DTA at 2:22 (DTA ties Subversion at top with 6)
Protactinium abstains at 2:26

LaXerCannon votes DTA at 3:00 (DTA to top with 7)
Lakrismamma votes Roffles at 4:32
BC votes amber at 4:51
Roffles votes chaoser at 5:16 (chaoser to 5)
Lakrismamma votes chaoser at 5:53 (chaoser to 6)
rastaban unvotes BB, abstains at 6:25
Pandian unvotes chaoser, votes Subversion (Subversion ties DTA at 7, chaoser at 5)
citi.zen unvotes zeks, votes chaoser (chaoser at 6)
DTA unvotes Subversion, votes chaoser (DTA, Subversion, Chaoser tie at top in that order)

At this point BrownBear is out of the equation

Very nice list, congrats! What does it mean?
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 22 2010 19:44 GMT
#1413
On July 23 2010 04:36 chaoser wrote:
read it for yourself and come up to your own conclusions, I'm not your mom. I'm not even done yet. But if you want, I'll write up a HUGE BIG PIECE OF ANALYSIS LATER if you want ok? Thanks

I'll be looking forward to it!
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 22 2010 20:46 GMT
#1415
On July 23 2010 05:19 tree.hugger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2010 03:08 Amber[LighT] wrote:
On July 23 2010 03:04 BrownBear wrote:
On July 23 2010 02:42 Amber[LighT] wrote:
I'm praying that the DT's made use of this lynch so we can pick out alignment.


This should be apparent, but NOBODY SHOULD TELL MEDICS OR DTs WHAT TO DO IN THE THREAD. OR EVEN HINT AT IT. The suicide bomber is still out there.


That's why I'm glad we haven't. It's better for the DT's to (hopefully) be on top of their own jobs without us spewing "oh do this." If they feel that what they're doing is better than what's being suggested in the thread then that's fine. The game is relying on their diligence at this point and I've stated what I would expect from the DT's throughout much of the game.

This goes for the other blues as well.

Unless the town comes to some kind of judgement about who to check, then we really don't need to worry too deeply about him. As we all know, just because I say something doesn't mean we're going to do it.

For example, it's important that the town talks about citi.zen and BC. Both are veterans, both are smart, both are good at this game. Also, both have been utterly useless so far, popping in once in a while to tell the town that it's doing it all wrong, without ever adding something concrete. It's that kind of ambiguous grey area of activity and inactivity that the mafia love to hide in.

Of course, Subversion or youngminii would be great checks as well, seeing as how they're both the same color, and it'd be useful to find out what that is.

And surely none of these people would object to them being checked, because they have nothing to fear, right?

I've actually tried to contribute, it's just that nobody cares to read anything but their own little flame wars. Has there been a single reply to my accusation of misder? Crickets - after asking me why I suspected him even he hasn't followed up at all - why draw attention to yourself when there is not risk of getting lynched? I also thought lynching zeks would be a decent idea, and said that if he is red we could have 2 more strong suspects, remember? Here's one more: look above you at Chaoser's posts. What he is doing is textbook red in my experience. The endless "voting behavior" discussions are a great way for the mafia to distract everyone for pages and pages, but I am yet to see a red "caught" based on it. It does however offer a great way to seem "active" without risking much - all you're doing is summarizing data without even commenting on it (why risk slipping up!). Another subtle and common bit of mafia behavior is to be more dismissive than usual, saying things like "I'm not your mom" or "screw you" rather than respond in a way that encourages further discussion. It works great when it's done by veterans against new players, but everyone does it to some degree. All the while, Chaoser was active and online, even posting in other threads.

Am I being too ambiguous?
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 22 2010 20:55 GMT
#1417
On July 23 2010 05:54 BrownBear wrote:
I'm FoSing everyone who's talked about what the DTs should do. Anything that could influence what the DTs or medics do, the SB could pick up on. The SB could then use this information to splat 2 extra people in one night.

So Amber, tree.hugger, citi.zen... shut up now.

Where did I once mention the DTs? All I said is those people are suspicions to me. If I get killed tonight there might as well be a paper trail.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 23 2010 01:11 GMT
#1440
On July 23 2010 04:36 chaoser wrote:
read it for yourself and come up to your own conclusions, I'm not your mom. I'm not even done yet. But if you want, I'll write up a HUGE BIG PIECE OF ANALYSIS LATER if you want ok? Thanks

Still waiting eagerly!
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 23 2010 04:33 GMT
#1509
On July 23 2010 13:32 youngminii wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2010 13:31 Pandain wrote:
On July 23 2010 13:29 youngminii wrote:
On July 23 2010 13:24 chaoser wrote:
Also, where have you EVER heard someone say "I'm excited about the kills"? This is the same person who said "mafia made no mistakes so far". Gloating as mafia/being excited for kills (WHICH NO TOWNIE SHOULD BE SINCE DEATHS=LESS OF US) is VERY SCUMMY

I would like you to find the post in which I said "mafia made no mistakes so far". I also do not recall saying "I'm excited about the kills", but I sure am excited to see Day 3 and what happened on Night 2.

Please don't pull things out of your ass and please stop coming to false conclusions. Thanks.


Nah Youngmini both of these things happened.
But it doesn't matter because Chaoser is totally drawing huge speculations from these sentences. I mean, I'm excited about the kills too. He thinks he was killed, why wouldn't he be excited?


Okay now you're getting me quite annoyed. I have never said mafia made no mistakes so far. Plus even if I did it doesn't mean anything, thanks.

Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 23 2010 04:34 GMT
#1510
That was subversion.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 23 2010 13:50 GMT
#1674
This is actually pretty cool. Both d3 and BC claimed veteran. Nobody else came forward. No reason not to trust them if no counter claim comes by the end of the day. Then we also confirm the Vigi. There are two DTs alive who performed 2 checks each - so possibly 4 more confirmed townies for a total of 7 confirmed townies. Not bad!
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 23 2010 13:57 GMT
#1676
On July 23 2010 22:51 chaoser wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2010 22:50 citi.zen wrote:
This is actually pretty cool. Both d3 and BC claimed veteran. Nobody else came forward. No reason not to trust them if no counter claim comes by the end of the day. Then we also confirm the Vigi. There are two DTs alive who performed 2 checks each - so possibly 4 more confirmed townies for a total of 7 confirmed townies. Not bad!


I don't think they claimed vet. didn't BC say he got medic saved?

d3 claimed vet, but BC didn't, you're right.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 23 2010 14:42 GMT
#1681
On July 20 2010 14:35 d3_crescentia wrote:
Okay, so.

I took a hit last night. According to Bill, I was protected from a bunch of fat men in suits. I guess that means all of you scum need to hit the gym. There was also an Asian with a cell phone. (DARTHTHIENANANANANAN!?!?!?!?!?!)

Oh, and if you're wondering, the reason why I'm posting this so late is because Bill didn't send me a PM initially ~_~

You seem to be right...
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 23 2010 15:04 GMT
#1682
Even having the links to the nights and days on the first page would be nice to help navigate through this...
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 23 2010 16:38 GMT
#1685
It does confirm that either Tricode and BC are both red, or Triode is innocent. So it tells us more about Tricode than about BC at this time.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 23 2010 17:03 GMT
#1690
On July 24 2010 01:50 SiNiquity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2010 01:38 citi.zen wrote:
It does confirm that either Tricode and BC are both red, or Triode is innocent. So it tells us more about Tricode than about BC at this time.

True. Though if Tricode were Mafia, it would give us 2 Mafia members immediately, which would be a wealth of information for us. It would be one hell of a Mafia gamble to fake all of this, as they would have to bank on us not lynching Tricode.

I don't know about killing tricode, it makes zero sense - he's almost confirmed and thus potentially very useful.

I am wondering whether the two DTs can use tricode to coordinate between themselves. All he would do is pass them each other's name (or name of their contact). He would also have to keep his mouth shut to everyone else. If the two Dts were in contact somehow we'd be in fantastic shape.

Comments?
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 23 2010 17:37 GMT
#1699
On July 24 2010 02:16 chaoser wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2010 02:11 rastaban wrote:
On July 24 2010 02:03 citi.zen wrote:
On July 24 2010 01:50 SiNiquity wrote:
On July 24 2010 01:38 citi.zen wrote:
It does confirm that either Tricode and BC are both red, or Triode is innocent. So it tells us more about Tricode than about BC at this time.

True. Though if Tricode were Mafia, it would give us 2 Mafia members immediately, which would be a wealth of information for us. It would be one hell of a Mafia gamble to fake all of this, as they would have to bank on us not lynching Tricode.

I don't know about killing tricode, it makes zero sense - he's almost confirmed and thus potentially very useful.

I am wondering whether the two DTs can use tricode to coordinate between themselves. All he would do is pass them each other's name (or name of their contact). He would also have to keep his mouth shut to everyone else. If the two Dts were in contact somehow we'd be in fantastic shape.

Comments?


I like the idea, but just wanted to point out a couple caveats.

1. He isn't 100% confirmed it is risky. As of yet there is no evidence at all that the hit ever happened beyond both there words. While it is unlikely is it worth exposing both DTs to this possibility?

2. What if he gets a mafia claim? if the mafia claim fast then if 1 of the DTs isn't active he may go ahead and exchange the names. Even if all three go through would he then share them all, tell us who the three were?



If the hit didn't even happen then we can assume both are mafia and that in general is a bad play by mafia, two public figures lying about roles. Either BC is mafia and lying or both are telling the truth. I think those are the only two real possibilities...right?

More like a "very risky play for mafia". I view it as unlikely, but not impossible.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 24 2010 01:46 GMT
#1766
On July 24 2010 10:31 tree.hugger wrote:
Hahahaha, BC where was that Day 1?

Also, I think we should lynch youngjeezy. He's like Subversion, (and tied to him) but more annoying. I think, seeing how he's rendered an opinion on practically everyone in the town by now, he's a lynch that'll keep on giving. I've thought he's mafia from the beginning, basically, and he's continued to get pretty much everything wrong since then.

But I guess I'm open to lynching citi.zen as well, as he's been spectacularly unhelpful, and has been sitting firmly in that grey area between activity and inactivity that usually harbors at least half of the mafia.

Pop quiz: out of BC's list of himself, me or pyrr, who has been "hugging that green area" closest?
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 24 2010 03:05 GMT
#1778
Ok, let's blow this taco stand.

I am a mad hatter. I am part of a dt circle. I would love to help the two dt's connect. Here's how we can do it:

1. Wait to see if there is a counter claim against me and Tricode, since together we should account for the 2 town Kp roles. If there isn't, we are both confirmed. If there is, we have a red player.
2. The other dt asks a confirmed person they checked to contact me. If more than one person comes forward I will ask the dt to claim. This way, if the mafia decide to fake claim we have two reds, not just one.
3. The two DTs, remaining publicly anonymous, are in contact. We give ourselves a chance to win.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 24 2010 03:57 GMT
#1800
On July 24 2010 12:05 citi.zen wrote:
Ok, let's blow this taco stand.

I am a mad hatter. I am part of a dt circle. I would love to help the two dt's connect. Here's how we can do it:

1. Wait to see if there is a counter claim against me and Tricode, since together we should account for the 2 town Kp roles. If there isn't, we are both confirmed. If there is, we have a red player.
2. The other dt asks a confirmed person they checked to contact me. If more than one person comes forward I will ask the dt to claim. This way, if the mafia decide to fake claim we have two reds, not just one.
3. The two DTs, remaining publicly anonymous, are in contact. We give ourselves a chance to win.

People like spam and I want this to be easy to find.

Also: if there is no counter-claim by tomorrow it would be wise for all blues to RC to me. Would a shame to lynch / investigate / bomb the wrong person. Thanks.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 24 2010 05:32 GMT
#1815
On July 24 2010 13:58 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2010 12:05 citi.zen wrote:
Ok, let's blow this taco stand.

I am a mad hatter. I am part of a dt circle. I would love to help the two dt's connect. Here's how we can do it:

1. Wait to see if there is a counter claim against me and Tricode, since together we should account for the 2 town Kp roles. If there isn't, we are both confirmed. If there is, we have a red player.
2. The other dt asks a confirmed person they checked to contact me. If more than one person comes forward I will ask the dt to claim. This way, if the mafia decide to fake claim we have two reds, not just one.
3. The two DTs, remaining publicly anonymous, are in contact. We give ourselves a chance to win.



Wait wait wait, what?


So not only do we have you claiming the second KP role, your claiming your in touch with a dt, that your confirmed, and are now requesting a player the other dt has confirmed to check in and ask the dt to claim.....

So, someone starts to FoS you, you then claim amazing inner circle, and are asking the DT or if nothing else a confirmed townie to trust you 100%. The DT's in your plan stay anonymous, except are forced to claim to people they haven't verified opening up confirmed people to potentially die, and yourself an easy out if either of them die by accusing the other persons "confirmed" person as red.

Now as much fun as this would be
We have two town KP roles claiming today. neither of which are confirmed (counterclaims could disprove this but requires wasting dt checks, lynches, time, and opening up everything to a bomber).

Seriously people read the post, he is asking for a way into a town circle a dt has begun without confirming himself in the least, this is shady shady play and citizen knows it. Then couple it with

Show nested quote +
On July 24 2010 12:57 citi.zen wrote:
On July 24 2010 12:05 citi.zen wrote:
Ok, let's blow this taco stand.

I am a mad hatter. I am part of a dt circle. I would love to help the two dt's connect. Here's how we can do it:

1. Wait to see if there is a counter claim against me and Tricode, since together we should account for the 2 town Kp roles. If there isn't, we are both confirmed. If there is, we have a red player.
2. The other dt asks a confirmed person they checked to contact me. If more than one person comes forward I will ask the dt to claim. This way, if the mafia decide to fake claim we have two reds, not just one.
3. The two DTs, remaining publicly anonymous, are in contact. We give ourselves a chance to win.

People like spam and I want this to be easy to find.

Also: if there is no counter-claim by tomorrow it would be wise for all blues to RC to me. Would a shame to lynch / investigate / bomb the wrong person. Thanks.


And you not only have him requesting DT's hes requesting all blues to roleclaim him. NO ONE, should be roleclaiming someone unconfirmed asking for so much out of the blue for this. This is beyond the matter of a simple roleclaim, and is now potentially a game ender for whatever side citizen actually is. Public roleclaims are bad enough, adding in a complete grab for blues is even worse.

Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 24 2010 05:45 GMT
#1818
On July 24 2010 13:58 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2010 12:05 citi.zen wrote:
Ok, let's blow this taco stand.

I am a mad hatter. I am part of a dt circle. I would love to help the two dt's connect. Here's how we can do it:

1. Wait to see if there is a counter claim against me and Tricode, since together we should account for the 2 town Kp roles. If there isn't, we are both confirmed. If there is, we have a red player.
2. The other dt asks a confirmed person they checked to contact me. If more than one person comes forward I will ask the dt to claim. This way, if the mafia decide to fake claim we have two reds, not just one.
3. The two DTs, remaining publicly anonymous, are in contact. We give ourselves a chance to win.



Wait wait wait, what?


So not only do we have you claiming the second KP role, your claiming your in touch with a dt, that your confirmed, and are now requesting a player the other dt has confirmed to check in and ask the dt to claim.....

So, someone starts to FoS you, you then claim amazing inner circle, and are asking the DT or if nothing else a confirmed townie to trust you 100%. The DT's in your plan stay anonymous, except are forced to claim to people they haven't verified opening up confirmed people to potentially die, and yourself an easy out if either of them die by accusing the other persons "confirmed" person as red.

Now as much fun as this would be
We have two town KP roles claiming today. neither of which are confirmed (counterclaims could disprove this but requires wasting dt checks, lynches, time, and opening up everything to a bomber).

I never claimed to be "confirmed". I only stated that if nobody else counter-claims, I will be. You know this.

Also, curious who it is that "FOS-ed" me. You? Look at your list of suspects above. I don't see an analysis on myself. Tree.hugger? Look at who he voted for. Do you really think this would be enough for a mafia to come up with a risky plan which can only end in a counter-claim? I know you know better.

Seriously people read the post, he is asking for a way into a town circle a dt has begun without confirming himself in the least, this is shady shady play and citizen knows it.


I am actually going to have access to both town circles. Scary, isn't it?

Throughout this game I felt you did little more but offer boiler-plate "tactical" advice. Like your long post about the game set-up: interesting but useless, other than to try to shed some suspicion on me. Now you are trying to stop this without any solid counter-argument. You also placed yourself on a "to check" list day one, so I'd guess you know you'd pass. You make a compelling GF right now. So, unless I hear of a confirmd red from the other DT:

##vote BloodyC0bbler
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 24 2010 05:48 GMT
#1819
On July 24 2010 14:36 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2010 14:25 Divinek wrote:
On July 24 2010 14:18 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
On July 24 2010 14:13 youngminii wrote:
What's suspicious is that you're trying to block this from happening. Not pointing fingers but it's quite obvious that this is a pretty solid plan with minimal chances of being infiltrated by scum, even then it will be obvious as the game progresses if he's lying or not.


From blocking it? I actually contest many claims in many games that are completely out of left field. No one agreed to claiming to someone who thought d3 was almost fully legit, yet your agreeing to claim to someone who has appeared out as the last KP role? as well as saying "sup im the medic spokesmen, got myself a circle already" etc...

Its too good to be true this early.


But surely if he's coming out as the last kp role it would have to be contested if he's lying? Though I could think of some reasons why the remaining kp person might not want to counter claim him it seems like it would be worth it to bust a fake circle of trust


Say for instance He is lying.
[blah... blah...]

Stop right there. We will need a counter claim from your gang for that to be a possibility. Anytime now.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 24 2010 11:51 GMT
#1878
On July 24 2010 15:11 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Citizen, you know im criticizing you because what you proposed isn’t a solid plan.

You offered a plan that your “confirmation” was no counter claim. A dt has to prove he’s a DT after day 2 by handing over a red typically. A vig has to have wasted a shot and been willing to die (see tricode), a hatter would have to offer to sacrifice their-self. Instead you offered a plan that relies on everyone to implicitly trust your word. You are aware of what a hatters job would be, just as much as you know trust in a mafia game isn’t freely given like your asking. Ontop of that your asking for all the blues to claim to you? You have offered nothing but a plan with holes ones you knew were open. Also, if you were really the hatter, you would most likely have a bomb on me already, so are you willing to lay your life on the line Godfather? If your legit you would be able to put the dt the other person your dt confirmed in contact with the other dt liason and would let claiming possible to them. Shall we do this rationally then?

Once the two DTs are connected, you are no longer needed. So you should be willing to do your job.

First off, I am not asking anyone to take my word. I explained this already: I am putting myself out there with this claim. If I am red there is another town kp role who can point me out. As I said, you need to sacrifice a red to at least create some confusion. Are you willing to?

Second, I have no problem dying to prove my innocence. It's an odd plan though, since if I am red the damage is already done after I have the dt names: the rest of the mafia team know them. So your "plan" does nothing in fact, even if I am red.

So you're wrong on both counts. At this point I don't get why people can't see how obviously red you are. I say we lynch BloodyC0bbler for confirmation. If the other dt wants they can wait until your flip to talk to me. That is how sure I am you are red.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 24 2010 12:21 GMT
#1879
Notice: my proposal protects the DT identities in all cases. BC's does not. In fact, his plan offers nothing to "protect" the town.

I am a bit surprised how sloppy BC is playing right now. Panic mode I guess...
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 24 2010 12:58 GMT
#1880
On July 24 2010 17:23 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2010 17:20 youngminii wrote:
What information? I'm running under the assumption no 'important' information will be passed along. I hope they're smart enough not to tell each other what blue roles they've found.


dude your trusting someone with a game breaking plan and assuming someone isn't going to pass information of whos been cleared (even if all you say is cleared) down a line. People screw up in pms all the time. the longer a mafia sits in with them with you the higher chance you have to screw up.

BC is telling us here that the DTs should not coordinate with each other because there is a chance of a slip-up. Again, he is acting as red as can be, using his credibility to try to spread misinformation.

Vote for him in today's lynch and don't tell me the Dt names until you see BC flip GF. Easy win after that.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 24 2010 14:49 GMT
#1884
On July 24 2010 22:52 XeliN wrote:
I'm going to ##vote SouthRawrea and DoubleLynch for now. I've barely had time to skim over this thread having been away from home and have to go out now as well.

I'd request people don't vote for me simply because I know this won't benefit the town, but I can understand if I'm a target due to suspicion or simply inactivity.

Right. Please just choose between me and BC. No reason not to - this is where the town gets a break. One way or another: -)
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 24 2010 14:55 GMT
#1887
Right, sadly for them they can't kill me for a while. By then it'll be too late. They also gave BC to us, so we're looking good!
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 24 2010 15:44 GMT
#1893
BC is plainly not making sense. He is red. Stop trying to distract.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 24 2010 16:02 GMT
#1897
On July 25 2010 00:26 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2010 21:58 citi.zen wrote:
On July 24 2010 17:23 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
On July 24 2010 17:20 youngminii wrote:
What information? I'm running under the assumption no 'important' information will be passed along. I hope they're smart enough not to tell each other what blue roles they've found.


dude your trusting someone with a game breaking plan and assuming someone isn't going to pass information of whos been cleared (even if all you say is cleared) down a line. People screw up in pms all the time. the longer a mafia sits in with them with you the higher chance you have to screw up.

BC is telling us here that the DTs should not coordinate with each other because there is a chance of a slip-up. Again, he is acting as red as can be, using his credibility to try to spread misinformation.

Vote for him in today's lynch and don't tell me the Dt names until you see BC flip GF. Easy win after that.


no, he actually has a really good point - that people screw up all the time. i can't tell you how many games i've been in where the dt's manage to start a blue circle, include one too any idiots and get the role info leaked to the mafia = dead blues; or inadvertently let the mafia directly into the PM circle = dead blues

your plan is solid but not error proof nor fool proof, and we can't pretend like it is

the reason to be careful is that this is basically THE GAME right here. if town screws up they lose it's over, if it works then town is sitting pretty

OK - let's encourage discussion. DTs talking to each other: good or bad in your view?
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 24 2010 16:41 GMT
#1903
On July 25 2010 01:20 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2010 01:02 citi.zen wrote:
On July 25 2010 00:26 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
On July 24 2010 21:58 citi.zen wrote:
On July 24 2010 17:23 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
On July 24 2010 17:20 youngminii wrote:
What information? I'm running under the assumption no 'important' information will be passed along. I hope they're smart enough not to tell each other what blue roles they've found.


dude your trusting someone with a game breaking plan and assuming someone isn't going to pass information of whos been cleared (even if all you say is cleared) down a line. People screw up in pms all the time. the longer a mafia sits in with them with you the higher chance you have to screw up.

BC is telling us here that the DTs should not coordinate with each other because there is a chance of a slip-up. Again, he is acting as red as can be, using his credibility to try to spread misinformation.

Vote for him in today's lynch and don't tell me the Dt names until you see BC flip GF. Easy win after that.


no, he actually has a really good point - that people screw up all the time. i can't tell you how many games i've been in where the dt's manage to start a blue circle, include one too any idiots and get the role info leaked to the mafia = dead blues; or inadvertently let the mafia directly into the PM circle = dead blues

your plan is solid but not error proof nor fool proof, and we can't pretend like it is

the reason to be careful is that this is basically THE GAME right here. if town screws up they lose it's over, if it works then town is sitting pretty

OK - let's encourage discussion. DTs talking to each other: good or bad in your view?


lol no matter what role i am i would answer this question the same way, so essentially it is a nonquestion. try again!

(the answer is that it is good)

Basically my worry is that you need a way to deal with false claims. The mafia are at an advantage right now in terms of kills and I wouldn't be surprised if they decide to send in one of their players as a false DT representative in order to sacrifice himself, disrupt your plan, and buy them another day

Situation: two people PM you claiming to be representatives of a Detective (they don't tell you his name). Now, since you know the name of the other DT or are at least in contact with him indirectly, we know one of these guys is a liar. How do you deal with this?

We would have to publicly expose the names of the representatives, in order to spend a day role checking or lynching (double lynch?), which costs the town another 2 kills before the plan goes into effect. Is there another, cleaner, plan?

Now one possible way to avoid this situation entirely is to have the remaining DT contact you himself, as you are confirmed town (unless there is a real vig/hatter out there and he is really really stupid or really really inactive). However, this still opens you up to false claims from the mafia, and in this case "your" DT can check one of the claimants (don't forget about the godfather!), thereby determining the innocence of the other. Still, you lose a night before getting the real DTs in touch with each other.

And then, the possibilities of what happen during the night can destroy the plan entirely. The suicide bomber comes to mind.

On the whole, this is a very powerful plan which is why i would expect mafia to interfere given that they haven't lost a member yet.

Since the idea of the plan has already been set in motion it seems to me that the town has little choice but to participate - consider a scenario where the actual remaining DT is too nervous to contact citizen, and then citizen gets contacted my a mafia "detective." Since only 1 claim came to citizen, can he assume the innocence of this claimant? This scenario alone shows why we basically have no choice but to follow through with the plan now, and that the remaining DT needs to follow the plan and find a way to contact citizen.

Personally, I'm not sure which method of contact is superior for the plan (representative to citi or actual DT to citi). Both have pros and cons here, can anyone else shed some light?


Two things: if you trust me, you trust me DT. I got checked night 1 and personally chose night 2's check target. No way for the two of them to "play me". Second, multiple claims are fine. The mafia will give up 2 people. At night we investigate one of the competing groups. We get two reds either way.

Clear?
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 24 2010 18:49 GMT
#1919
On July 25 2010 03:34 SiNiquity wrote:
Well with 2 / 2 KP roles have claimed (Tricode Vigilante and Citi.zen Mad Hatter), and with no counter claims up to this point, it seems likely that they're both innocent. The only scenario I can imagine where even one of these players isn't innocent is if:

1. Mafia knew the identify of the other KP role (else this player could blow the whistle at any time).
2. Knew that the other KP role would be inactive today (maybe they posted something to this effect).

As far as I can tell, the only way 1. could be accomplished is if they had already infiltrated a DT circle. This then requires

3. Knew that the DT would be inactive today (as the DT would also know 1.)

I searched and it seems Misder is the only one that hasn't posted since the Tricode / Citi.zen claiming party and has hinted he would probably be inactive this go-around. I think everyone else has at least posted, though a few only dropped in some one liners just saying they were either active or trying to catch up and didn't reference Tricode / Citi.zen directly, so it could be they missed it.

Am I missing anything, or barring this outlandish scenario are Tricode and Citi.zen clean?

Pretty good points: the mafia would need to know that the DT AND other KP role would be AFK today, yet only 1 person has failed to post.

So yes, me and Tricode are confirmed.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 24 2010 19:08 GMT
#1924
On July 25 2010 03:47 SouthRawrea wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2010 03:37 Pandain wrote:
On July 25 2010 03:34 SiNiquity wrote:
Well with 2 / 2 KP roles have claimed (Tricode Vigilante and Citi.zen Mad Hatter), and with no counter claims up to this point, it seems likely that they're both innocent. The only scenario I can imagine where even one of these players isn't innocent is if:

1. Mafia knew the identify of the other KP role (else this player could blow the whistle at any time).
2. Knew that the other KP role would be inactive today (maybe they posted something to this effect).

As far as I can tell, the only way 1. could be accomplished is if they had already infiltrated a DT circle. This then requires

3. Knew that the DT would be inactive today (as the DT would also know 1.)

I searched and it seems Misder is the only one that hasn't posted since the Tricode / Citi.zen claiming party and has hinted he would probably be inactive this go-around. I think everyone else has at least posted, though a few only dropped in some one liners just saying they were either active or trying to catch up and didn't reference Tricode / Citi.zen directly, so it could be they missed it.

Am I missing anything, or barring this outlandish scenario are Tricode and Citi.zen clean?


Yeah, pretty sure. I had been thinking about this for a while now(past 20 minutes) and I was thinking up a couple of ideas. Would it be good for everyone just to pm roleclaim to either Tricode/Citizen.

I mean, they're both clean. This could really really help us. And in the chance that a mafia will counter claim to be a kp town, than we have 3 suspects to deal with.

DONT ROLECLAIM YET, NEED FEEBACK



Sorry I'm back, I slept in today. This has caught my eye though because I have no choice but to counter claim Citi.zen here as if I claim later, I will become less and less believable which is not really good to the town assuming that one of us is the mafia which is most likely. Again, sorry for not being on early enough to respond to his claim. It should be fine as long as the DTs have not yet claimed to Citi.zen.

Of course you "have no choice". You guys already gambled everything at this point and this is your last chance.

Now, you say you "slept in". I had no way of knowing that and no motive to gamble that you would be AFK. As I've said before, I was under no pressure what-so-ever when I claimed. You also say this:

On July 25 2010 03:52 SouthRawrea wrote:
So far I've been trying to slip under the radar so I don't get lynched early on or killed at night. I've actually only placed one bomb thus far as I was a little hesitant to kill place two people at risk even if I suspect them. My only one at the moment is on chaoser but that was placed yesterday after seeing that he didn't get lynched. I decided to abstain from placing a second bomb because of the first vote placed on me by Bumat... I felt threatened. :/

## Vote Citizen for now

Why "for now?" If you are the hatter (which I konw you aren't), you would 100% vote for me since you would 100% know I am lying. Yet you say "for now". Perhaps the mafia should have chosen a stronger player to do their counter-claim... but what do I know.

Lynching Southrawarea will confirm my claim once and for all... The mafia already gave up many names in the past 24h, so the town is in a better position. My DT has a lot of information, whatever happens to me.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 24 2010 19:09 GMT
#1925
Oh, right:

unvote
##vote SouthRawarea
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 24 2010 19:11 GMT
#1926
BM: just to clarify, the SB kill goes through AT THE END of the night, correct? This is why they take with them any visitors - people need to put their actions through, right?

AKA: I cannot get killed the second after we lynch South.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 24 2010 20:09 GMT
#1940
Make sure you vote. As a town you gain nothing from delaying. Abstain helps the mafia.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 24 2010 20:10 GMT
#1941
Also:

## vote double lynch
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 24 2010 22:50 GMT
#2030
On July 25 2010 07:47 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2010 07:41 lakrismamma wrote:
On July 25 2010 07:24 BloodyC0bbler wrote:


see bolded part. He wasn't actually cleared with no counterclaim for a reason I listed earlier which was this

IF you were the mad hatter and you saw someone claim your role, You know instantly he's most likely red. You then wait a day, move your bomb to him get lynched following day (confirms both of you). Instead, he said "if no one claims im legit." He did however get a claim, regardless, his point was moot regardless.


Agaisn you are using the fact that people are looking up to you to present some solutions that are not evident at all.Not everybody would play like this I sure as hell wouldn't.

On July 25 2010 07:24 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
I most likely wont trust citizen until he proves to be trustworthy. He is far too inactive at this point for the plan he proposed. He has legimate concerns raised against him, a counter claim, etc....
Where is he? Nowhere to be found, instead people who have been semi inactive all game have decided to vouch for him. It comes of as extremely suspicious.

Also, it has no matter where he placed his bombs. If he has them on reds or not. A dt circle is still confirmed, and as much as dead townies suck to have, they do lower the dt pool of checked targets finding reds faster. Anyone who flips red dies, then its a hunt for the gf. If you find three of one blue role, boom you found him, etc...



I find it weird that you can chose between two people, oneof them is mafia.
One you have already made a case against and told that he is most likely mafia. Still you vote on the other guy.

Was you play earlier a scam to get people to trust you because you found Southrawrea as mafia?


Simple, i based one persons scum level based on activity, and the person I am now voting for put out an option with holes and not only has not refuted them, has barely even touched the hatter claim. Instead he is rallying on "trust" to get him through without being here. What to you is more scummy? Someone proposing a make or break strategy with the idea of "trust me" while vanishing into the night, or someone who desperately wants to live.

As for hatter play, maybe you wouldn't play like that BUT I am giving a logical idea of what someone might do. Just because you wouldn't do it, nor consider it a viable option is odd as your assuming someone else is completely legit, or that people always play this game under a normal sense of "logic". Not considering it a viable option because you wouldn't do it as other players might.

You know offering South hasn't saved you, don't you? You just dug the hole deeper.
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 24 2010 23:14 GMT
#2082
Town, if you really think I am red and out of the blue decided to fake claim in a game where nobody had put any pressure on me, you deserve to lose.

I am out with the family for the evening. If you find that scummy on a Saturday I am speechless.

Make the right call and this is over. The reds risked everything today: try to go after my credibility, try to question a solid plan on unfounded grounds, fake-claim right when a majority of players had correctly concluded I was telling the tuyth, try to get me lynched "to reveal information" (really to stop me from linking the two circles tonight). Just read the thread to see who did this - it's transparent as hell.
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 24 2010 23:41 GMT
#2134
The confirmed dt knows of all the claims. I will not reveal their names publicly at this point - it would condemn the real one. It also has no bearing on what you guys need to do: lynch south so you get a 1pp% confirmed red. One way or another.
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 25 2010 00:33 GMT
#2177
The townies who voted with the mafia need to stop playing this game. Forever. This is as clear cut as it gets: BC, Inf, Chaos, Tree.hugger, South are red. Perhaps after you lynch me you will... I don't know... go after one of them. You have a double lynch to use.

By the way: to avoid this dumb town situation, the mad hatter is actually the SECOND player my DT checked, not myself. I claimed in his place to keep them safe for one more night. Now they have all they need to accurately place their bombs. I am plain vanilla town, as you are about to find out when I flip.

Remember: BC, Inf, Chaos, Tree.hugger, South. Plus whoever fake claimed.
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 25 2010 01:02 GMT
#2227
On July 25 2010 10:00 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
I really think citi.zen is red. I don't see what he gets from faking blue rather than just saying he's a mouth from the start.

You're not this bad either. Supposedly.
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 25 2010 01:09 GMT
#2245
On July 25 2010 10:05 flamewheel wrote:
My name is flamewheel, and I am really confused.

Also, apparently I am a kitty!

Apparently so am I! If BC says it, it must be true!
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 25 2010 01:11 GMT
#2248
If you people screw up the double Lynch I am going to laugh so hard.
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 25 2010 01:14 GMT
#2254
GL town.
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-26 01:14:45
July 26 2010 01:12 GMT
#2540
...
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 26 2010 21:47 GMT
#2754
On July 27 2010 06:31 Bill Murray wrote:

southrawrea is at L-1

Surely not...
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 27 2010 20:03 GMT
#2820
On July 28 2010 04:48 DarthThienAn wrote:
maybe by the end of the game, but

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=116703

2400/22 > 2800/30

Oh lord, that game...
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 27 2010 20:21 GMT
#2822
132 people seems... totally unmanageable.
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 27 2010 22:04 GMT
#2827
Rofl.
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 28 2010 03:11 GMT
#2842
On July 28 2010 12:01 youngminii wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2010 11:47 Pandain wrote:
On July 28 2010 10:55 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
On July 28 2010 10:19 Divinek wrote:
his lack of posting since being for sure lynched makes me think red eeeeeeeeeeeee but we shall see


Actually I read the thread yesterday morning saw I had hit majority along with SR and assumed day had finished when I got home from work last night. I love how rules change so instantly without warning ffs.


quick! Make a compilation of your thoughts before you die!

BC: I'm not scum you fools.
BM: BloodyC0bbler, Suicide Bomber/Infested Terran, lynched Day 3
Also,
SouthRawrea, Mafia, lynched Day 3

GF, not IT.
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-28 12:53:16
July 28 2010 12:24 GMT
#2929
On July 28 2010 15:29 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2010 15:22 ~OpZ~ wrote:
On July 28 2010 14:43 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
On July 28 2010 14:39 BrownBear wrote:
On July 28 2010 14:29 Divinek wrote:
i had strong thoughts bc was mafia just based on how he'd been posting (even if that was only based on how he played one game previously) and his pms to me

but he's such a persuasive asshole, damn experienced players


BC is damn good at this game. He almost had me convinced yesterday.


Shit, for real? rofl. I did way better than I was thinking I had. SOOOO thought I had only stalled you.

BC, you had a VERY slim chance of changing my vote...But as I've said, I regularly distrust you. And your instajump on citizen is what hugely pinned my suspicion at you. Was an epic bus of citizen you pulled off tho. GG for you sir.


I woulda done it as town as well. As I said, his play was horrendous there, the fact that only a minority of players saw it makes me sad.

No comments since I'm dead. Just LOL.

Edit: I see what you tried to do there. Slick but... you're dead.
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 28 2010 21:48 GMT
#2965
It's even harder for moi to keep quiet. Might as well help the spam!
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 29 2010 04:56 GMT
#3026
Re-reading pages 91 - onwards was good clean fun :-)
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 29 2010 05:04 GMT
#3033
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 29 2010 05:07 GMT
#3036
On July 29 2010 14:06 flamewheel wrote:
HOLY FUCKING SHIT LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

And you guys thought the SB was a useless role - ROFL!
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
July 30 2010 03:19 GMT
#3221
Lol - I sincerely congratulated panda for playing a good red game. Turns out he was town - I take it all back.
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
August 01 2010 02:01 GMT
#3275
lylo
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
August 02 2010 17:56 GMT
#3373
zzzzzomg, it's the META!!!!
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
August 03 2010 03:19 GMT
#3476
On August 03 2010 12:15 DarthThienAn wrote:
BM someone should be lynched, right?

The bus driver. Always Lynch the drivet.
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
August 03 2010 03:27 GMT
#3480
Phssss.... night posts are for pantsies. Real Mafia players play on, with or without them.
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
August 03 2010 14:48 GMT
#3524
On August 03 2010 23:44 chaoser wrote:
so...what's the situation?

Bill played basketball yesterday. Give it a rest.
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
August 04 2010 16:31 GMT
#3560
LOL, it's not time to vote, it's night. And yes.
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
August 04 2010 16:35 GMT
#3562
Right you are!
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
August 04 2010 21:45 GMT
#3620
On August 05 2010 06:27 Pandain wrote:
Four major events that saved mafia:
1.Inflitration of DT Subversion
2.The Xelin Attack
3.Sexy blue sniping
4.Medic protecting BC(hehe)

I actually think the mafia played badly. They won for a far simpler reason: the town was terrible.
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
August 04 2010 22:02 GMT
#3630
On August 05 2010 06:52 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 05 2010 06:45 citi.zen wrote:
On August 05 2010 06:27 Pandain wrote:
Four major events that saved mafia:
1.Inflitration of DT Subversion
2.The Xelin Attack
3.Sexy blue sniping
4.Medic protecting BC(hehe)

I actually think the mafia played badly. They won for a far simpler reason: the town was terrible.

Yea we really effed up the role claiming stuff but it was sorta necessary given the setup.

In doing so you gave up 4 clear reds. Xelin and Proct were the only non-obvious ones. Of course, the town was blind + compensated by giving away the blue roles, horrible PM play and failure to read.

This is the most lol sample, but there are many others like it:

-----------------------------------------

On July 28 2010 13:58 Divinek wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2010 13:37 Pandain wrote:
FUCK YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dude this was like the best thing that could've happened. Well done zeks. He's trusted for sure now n.n

And to think I doubted BOTH of them being mafia.


you're kidding right? They both had clear signs of being red, south 10000x times more than bc as bc is obviously good, but yeah. There's no way you could have doubted both lol

way to go town!

Followed one minute later by:

On July 28 2010 13:59 Divinek wrote:
oh since bc knew this all of mafia knows this i might as well tell you guys

im a vet

No comment...
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
August 04 2010 23:07 GMT
#3678
On August 05 2010 07:04 Ace wrote:
lol D3 this is going to haunt you. Guess I better start updating my Winning as Scum guide. Also listen to what flamewheel said about going back to read posts:

Show nested quote +


Majority Lynch voting rules: If your Scum team has very persuasive players or the Town has impulsive voters this will favor you a lot. It makes the game move faster than a deadline enforced lynch and faster games favor you. The less time the town has to decide on important issues and talk the better for your team. You can force mistakes faster and if the Town isn't good at going back to piece together posts the blame for the lynch might miss you. Even better if a townie "caused the lynch" (more on this later) you get to point it out and have some fun.


Also major props to BC on that situation with citizen. Town or scum it was definitely a pro town move to bust citizen out for lying about a role claim for multiple reasons, the most important being that no one could ever confirm him without confirming who ever he was allegedly fronting for. By the time that all got cleared up town was screwed unless somebody really sat down and thought about how the hell could rastaban be town with his fake roleclaim too ^_^.

There was no lie. There was a strategic switching of two confirmed players. Nobody else was supposed to know but zeks and kris, co-planners from the start. The subsequent vote proved we were correct to make the switch.

And no, what bc did was not pro town, not even remotely so. At worst the plan was supposed to cost me the lynching but reveal a mafia who would need to counter-claim. This public roleclaim "confirmation" is how 90% of games with pms end up. This is why this was a town favored set-up. If you think it's wrong for a person in that position to rc... I am puzzled.
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
August 05 2010 01:26 GMT
#3733
On August 05 2010 08:15 Ace wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 05 2010 08:07 citi.zen wrote:
On August 05 2010 07:04 Ace wrote:
lol D3 this is going to haunt you. Guess I better start updating my Winning as Scum guide. Also listen to what flamewheel said about going back to read posts:



Majority Lynch voting rules: If your Scum team has very persuasive players or the Town has impulsive voters this will favor you a lot. It makes the game move faster than a deadline enforced lynch and faster games favor you. The less time the town has to decide on important issues and talk the better for your team. You can force mistakes faster and if the Town isn't good at going back to piece together posts the blame for the lynch might miss you. Even better if a townie "caused the lynch" (more on this later) you get to point it out and have some fun.


Also major props to BC on that situation with citizen. Town or scum it was definitely a pro town move to bust citizen out for lying about a role claim for multiple reasons, the most important being that no one could ever confirm him without confirming who ever he was allegedly fronting for. By the time that all got cleared up town was screwed unless somebody really sat down and thought about how the hell could rastaban be town with his fake roleclaim too ^_^.

There was no lie. There was a strategic switching of two confirmed players. Nobody else was supposed to know but zeks and kris, co-planners from the start. The subsequent vote proved we were correct to make the switch.

And no, what bc did was not pro town, not even remotely so. At worst the plan was supposed to cost me the lynching but reveal a mafia who would need to counter-claim. This public roleclaim "confirmation" is how 90% of games with pms end up. This is why this was a town favored set-up. If you think it's wrong for a person in that position to rc... I am puzzled.


Well from my P.O.V. this is how I viewed everything. There is no way you could have been a Mad Hatter for a couple of reasons:

1.) So early in the game very slim chance you'd have both bombs placed on scum correctly.
2.) With that in mind you'd never roleclaim if you were legit - you want to DIE if your bombs are placed correctly by an accidental mafia hit or a town lynch.
3.) With both these in mind it makes no sense for you to roleclaim to the town and if you do you'd be better off asking for everyone to vote for you so you get lynched and flat out ignore whatever BC is saying.

In short you weren't even acting like anyone who was a mad hatter with 2 bombs on scum would. If your bombs aren't on scum then they are on townies or just not placed at all which means Scum have every incentive to shoot you. Which means you definitely don't want to roleclaim. Looking at it in both ways like this I figured you had to be lying. But that wasn't the only problem.

If you were in contact with Detectives then how is it possible that you not only verified them to be legit but also got them to verify that your bombs were placed on actual mafia? In a span of 3 game days that would be a major leap of perfect execution. From the town perspective you are now the mouth of some unconfirmed DTs in the background that only a few people know about, but can't be revealed until shit hits the fan.

So if I am a townie why in the world would I trust you when I just realized you lied for what I would have figured was a small gain? You are the mouth of a hatter or detectives and even if that was true why do I care as town - you haven't given me a guilty result on anyone.

Your entire argument is based on one assumption: that the hatter is more valuable for their bombs than for setting up a large circle. For my money, in this set-up, I would gladly sacrifice "correctly placing bombs" if it helped set up the circle. No hesitation. You yourself mentioned that games with PMs are broken because they create the "find the invisible invincible detective" problem for the mafia. This situation is so good for the town that it is well worth the life of a hatter any day in my book.

Let me tell you about the bigger picture too. At that moment, the town had no leads. There were leaks every day through PMs, and in fact the "other" DT circle was already infiltrated. One medic was dead already. The town was fractured and, because of the leaks, each night the mafia had a better and better shot to snipe the remaining undiscovered DT. This was the reality that day.

It then happened that Tricode hit BC, then claimed on the forum to be vigi. By coincidence, we had the hatter in our circle. In an IRC conversation with kris and zeks we decided to go with the hatter claim plan (Tricode was never supposed to know the details but unfortunately he had already been told zeks was the hatter). It was a joint decision and I happened to be the vanilla townie in the group. As a townie the worst that could happen is I would get lynched, which was no big deal since the mafia had me on the "to hit" shortlist anyway. If I were to get lynched there would have to be a counter-claim, so at least there would be a red in the open.

I am fully at fault for not being sufficiently active the day of the claim. Reading back pages 92-onwards, the mafia never found logical "holes" in the plan - they never even invoked the argument Ace brought up (which I continue to think rests on the assumption a hatter is primarily valuable for their bombs, an assumption that is not always correct). Because they could not find logical flaws they started to sacrifice people: BC, South, rastaban. They also made a HUGE number of plainly nonsensical arguments. For example, when it was leaked that there were "multiple dt rep" claims, the mafia said "why would citi.zen not tell us? he must be red!" Of course, multiple DT rep claims should have made it 100% obvious I was telling the truth: if I was red the fake claims would have to come from townies, but why would a townie every fake claim in that situation? So fake claims to me = I could NOT be red. Whatever... there are way too many incoherent arguments that day to talk about all of them.

So I don't think at all that the plan was bad, had big logical flaws, or screwed the town over. It was solid and surfaced clear reds. The town was better off for it. I am really surprised to see everyone watching this, from Ace to Ver or Incognito say it was a bad idea.

And just to be clear: I think this was indeed a town favored set-up. The mafia won so they deserve 2x the congratulations for being active and having a fantastic PR machine when it counted.
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-05 01:43:53
August 05 2010 01:38 GMT
#3738
On August 05 2010 10:31 Pandain wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 05 2010 10:26 citi.zen wrote:


I am fully at fault for not being sufficiently active the day of the claim. Reading back pages 92-onwards, the mafia never found logical "holes" in the plan - they never even invoked the argument Ace brought up (which I continue to think rests on the assumption a hatter is primarily valuable for their bombs, an assumption that is not always correct). Because they could not find logical flaws they started to sacrifice people: BC, South, rastaban. They also made a HUGE number of plainly nonsensical arguments. For example, when it was leaked that there were "multiple dt rep" claims, the mafia said "why would citi.zen not tell us? he must be red!" Of course, multiple DT rep claims should have made it 100% obvious I was telling the truth: if I was red the fake claims would have to come from townies, but why would a townie every fake claim in that situation? So fake claims to me = I could NOT be red. Whatever... there are way too many incoherent arguments that day to talk about all of them.

So I don't think at all that the plan was bad, had big logical flaws, or screwed the town over. It was solid and surfaced clear reds. The town was better off for it. I am really surprised to see everyone watching this, from Ace to Ver or Incognito say it was a bad idea.

And just to be clear: I think this was indeed a town favored set-up. The mafia won so they deserve 2x the congratulations for being active and having a fantastic PR machine when it counted.


That's an extremely good point, and if noticed would've saved us. I myself knew about the triple claim because you told me so I didn't look into it but I should've thought about it from this regard. *facepalm*

Thus proving the valuable asset of reading.

Exactly, this game you and others had 100% CLEAR EVIDENCE which you ignored. Not picking on you, just saying that the stories the town collectively swallowed is surreal to me. If Ace/Ver/Incognito actually playrd in this game I trust they would have noticed the dozens of plain bad and skewed arguments. Should have been a huge asset to the town, but they just got ignored.
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
August 05 2010 01:46 GMT
#3741
On August 05 2010 10:45 rastaban wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 05 2010 10:38 citi.zen wrote:
On August 05 2010 10:31 Pandain wrote:
On August 05 2010 10:26 citi.zen wrote:


I am fully at fault for not being sufficiently active the day of the claim. Reading back pages 92-onwards, the mafia never found logical "holes" in the plan - they never even invoked the argument Ace brought up (which I continue to think rests on the assumption a hatter is primarily valuable for their bombs, an assumption that is not always correct). Because they could not find logical flaws they started to sacrifice people: BC, South, rastaban. They also made a HUGE number of plainly nonsensical arguments. For example, when it was leaked that there were "multiple dt rep" claims, the mafia said "why would citi.zen not tell us? he must be red!" Of course, multiple DT rep claims should have made it 100% obvious I was telling the truth: if I was red the fake claims would have to come from townies, but why would a townie every fake claim in that situation? So fake claims to me = I could NOT be red. Whatever... there are way too many incoherent arguments that day to talk about all of them.

So I don't think at all that the plan was bad, had big logical flaws, or screwed the town over. It was solid and surfaced clear reds. The town was better off for it. I am really surprised to see everyone watching this, from Ace to Ver or Incognito say it was a bad idea.

And just to be clear: I think this was indeed a town favored set-up. The mafia won so they deserve 2x the congratulations for being active and having a fantastic PR machine when it counted.


That's an extremely good point, and if noticed would've saved us. I myself knew about the triple claim because you told me so I didn't look into it but I should've thought about it from this regard. *facepalm*

Thus proving the valuable asset of reading.

Exactly, this game you and others had 100% CLEAR EVIDENCE which you ignored. Not picking on you, just saying that what the town collectively swallowed that entire was surreal to me. If Ace/Ver/Incognito actually playrd in this game I trust they would have noticed the dozens of plain bad and skewed arguments. Should have been a huge asset to the town, but they just got ignored.


Maybe it was due to the way I presented it (this being my second game) but I was not trying to say there were 3 legitimate claims, but only 2. and that you had told both legitimate claimers that there were 3 so they would be forced to reveal their corresponding DTs instead of just linking the mouths. The mafia would want this since killing the DTs would be better than trying to off the mouths.

But that's just the point: if there were 3 claims, one had to be from the mafia. AKA I was not mafia.
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
August 05 2010 02:06 GMT
#3750
On August 05 2010 10:58 Ace wrote:
@citizen: Then your point makes sense. If it was to setup a circle then I completely understand the urgency you did it under. It still doesn't change the fact that players would assume you were lying so how did you expect to gain their trust?

Thinking about the point you made where the worst thing that could happen is you get lynched (it did): Where does the town go from there? . Was there a plan to keep the DTs invincible and hidden that just didn't pan out? There didn't even have to be a counter-claim because once you die and flip non-hatter they just move on. Iirc the town has no idea there is an actual hatter, just that they have 2 night killing roles. But I'm not assuming hatters are valuable for their bombs, more so that if you were a real hatter how are you so sure you placed bombs on scum. I actually don't even think the mad hatter role is that good :/

Yes!

This was what I expected to happen: the mafia will not panic and give up THREE players (this was success beyond my wildest dream). I though it more likely there would be no counter claim, relying on blue-sniping instead. Remember, without a counter-claim I would not get lynched, I'd be confirmed as the 2nd KP role. We'd just coordinate DT checks and medic protection from then on... the usual circle thing...
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citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
August 05 2010 03:21 GMT
#3768
On August 05 2010 10:58 Ace wrote:
@citizen: Then your point makes sense. If it was to setup a circle then I completely understand the urgency you did it under. It still doesn't change the fact that players would assume you were lying so how did you expect to gain their trust?

Thinking about the point you made where the worst thing that could happen is you get lynched (it did): Where does the town go from there? . Was there a plan to keep the DTs invincible and hidden that just didn't pan out? There didn't even have to be a counter-claim because once you die and flip non-hatter they just move on. Iirc the town has no idea there is an actual hatter, just that they have 2 night killing roles. But I'm not assuming hatters are valuable for their bombs, more so that if you were a real hatter how are you so sure you placed bombs on scum. I actually don't even think the mad hatter role is that good :/

ETA: Also while the plan was bad, the result was good and I think I agreed with that sentiment in PMs. BC and rastaban got outted, and Brownbear is correct that reading back and looking at how the other DT circle got broken Protact was the last person in the circle alive after Pandain's death. I'm not blaming you as if you lost the town the game, I just don't think Town fake claims work out in a situation where you don't have a guilty result or a confirmed townie in the open.

I still don't see how the plan was bad if you concede there was an urgency to create a circle and that a potential hatter losing out on bombs is a reasonable price to pay for a circle in this set-up. In another game faced with the same situation I would do the same thing, making sure to be more active. I have read nothing to make me change my mind.

Also, the fake-claim played no role what-so-ever: I could not have done anything different if I were the actual hatter. I did revealed I was green right before the flip, but by then the votes were what they were and it was better to tell the town why I was going to flip green. In fact it was a good decision, which allowed the real hatter to live 1 more night.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
August 05 2010 03:41 GMT
#3770
On August 05 2010 08:40 Incognito wrote:

On another note, with citizen's plan: I'm surprised mafia didn't take advantage of one more major hole in the plan. Citizen called for a DT to use a mouth to claim to him. Unfortunately, that's a really bad move that can get mafia some forced lynches. Nobody seemed to see that mafia can claim to be a DT mouth (for a fake DT obv), then claim DT found a red. Town lynches said "red" the next day, but he flips up town. Mafia (fake DT mouth) says oh hmm my DT must be a fake, then offers a town name to lynch. Town lynches the "DT" and oops! its not a DT, whereupon the fake DT mouth finally dies. Which takes 3 whole days. Just imagine how much chaos the mafia can cause throughout that period, not to mention that you still have unresolved issues with the fake claim by citizen etc. So yes, BC blasting citizen was warranted even if he was town. But I think he would've done a more thorough job as town there if he saw things from a slightly different perspective. Regardless, there are numerous things wrong with citizen's plan, as Ace kindly pointed out.


This is a non-issue. If the mafia fake-claimed to have their own DT, there would be too many DTs so we would not trust their "checks". The problem then would be how to find the fake-claim vs. the real one - and here the confirmed DT would help.

Like I said, everybody talks of "many holes" but... the details are sketchy.

Whatever, I will drop it.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
August 05 2010 14:00 GMT
#3794
On August 05 2010 15:59 Incognito wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 05 2010 10:26 citi.zen wrote:
On August 05 2010 08:15 Ace wrote:
On August 05 2010 08:07 citi.zen wrote:
On August 05 2010 07:04 Ace wrote:
lol D3 this is going to haunt you. Guess I better start updating my Winning as Scum guide. Also listen to what flamewheel said about going back to read posts:



Majority Lynch voting rules: If your Scum team has very persuasive players or the Town has impulsive voters this will favor you a lot. It makes the game move faster than a deadline enforced lynch and faster games favor you. The less time the town has to decide on important issues and talk the better for your team. You can force mistakes faster and if the Town isn't good at going back to piece together posts the blame for the lynch might miss you. Even better if a townie "caused the lynch" (more on this later) you get to point it out and have some fun.


Also major props to BC on that situation with citizen. Town or scum it was definitely a pro town move to bust citizen out for lying about a role claim for multiple reasons, the most important being that no one could ever confirm him without confirming who ever he was allegedly fronting for. By the time that all got cleared up town was screwed unless somebody really sat down and thought about how the hell could rastaban be town with his fake roleclaim too ^_^.

There was no lie. There was a strategic switching of two confirmed players. Nobody else was supposed to know but zeks and kris, co-planners from the start. The subsequent vote proved we were correct to make the switch.

And no, what bc did was not pro town, not even remotely so. At worst the plan was supposed to cost me the lynching but reveal a mafia who would need to counter-claim. This public roleclaim "confirmation" is how 90% of games with pms end up. This is why this was a town favored set-up. If you think it's wrong for a person in that position to rc... I am puzzled.


Well from my P.O.V. this is how I viewed everything. There is no way you could have been a Mad Hatter for a couple of reasons:

1.) So early in the game very slim chance you'd have both bombs placed on scum correctly.
2.) With that in mind you'd never roleclaim if you were legit - you want to DIE if your bombs are placed correctly by an accidental mafia hit or a town lynch.
3.) With both these in mind it makes no sense for you to roleclaim to the town and if you do you'd be better off asking for everyone to vote for you so you get lynched and flat out ignore whatever BC is saying.

In short you weren't even acting like anyone who was a mad hatter with 2 bombs on scum would. If your bombs aren't on scum then they are on townies or just not placed at all which means Scum have every incentive to shoot you. Which means you definitely don't want to roleclaim. Looking at it in both ways like this I figured you had to be lying. But that wasn't the only problem.

If you were in contact with Detectives then how is it possible that you not only verified them to be legit but also got them to verify that your bombs were placed on actual mafia? In a span of 3 game days that would be a major leap of perfect execution. From the town perspective you are now the mouth of some unconfirmed DTs in the background that only a few people know about, but can't be revealed until shit hits the fan.

So if I am a townie why in the world would I trust you when I just realized you lied for what I would have figured was a small gain? You are the mouth of a hatter or detectives and even if that was true why do I care as town - you haven't given me a guilty result on anyone.

Your entire argument is based on one assumption: that the hatter is more valuable for their bombs than for setting up a large circle. For my money, in this set-up, I would gladly sacrifice "correctly placing bombs" if it helped set up the circle. No hesitation. You yourself mentioned that games with PMs are broken because they create the "find the invisible invincible detective" problem for the mafia. This situation is so good for the town that it is well worth the life of a hatter any day in my book.

Let me tell you about the bigger picture too. At that moment, the town had no leads. There were leaks every day through PMs, and in fact the "other" DT circle was already infiltrated. One medic was dead already. The town was fractured and, because of the leaks, each night the mafia had a better and better shot to snipe the remaining undiscovered DT. This was the reality that day.

It then happened that Tricode hit BC, then claimed on the forum to be vigi. By coincidence, we had the hatter in our circle. In an IRC conversation with kris and zeks we decided to go with the hatter claim plan (Tricode was never supposed to know the details but unfortunately he had already been told zeks was the hatter). It was a joint decision and I happened to be the vanilla townie in the group. As a townie the worst that could happen is I would get lynched, which was no big deal since the mafia had me on the "to hit" shortlist anyway. If I were to get lynched there would have to be a counter-claim, so at least there would be a red in the open.

I am fully at fault for not being sufficiently active the day of the claim. Reading back pages 92-onwards, the mafia never found logical "holes" in the plan - they never even invoked the argument Ace brought up (which I continue to think rests on the assumption a hatter is primarily valuable for their bombs, an assumption that is not always correct). Because they could not find logical flaws they started to sacrifice people: BC, South, rastaban. They also made a HUGE number of plainly nonsensical arguments. For example, when it was leaked that there were "multiple dt rep" claims, the mafia said "why would citi.zen not tell us? he must be red!" Of course, multiple DT rep claims should have made it 100% obvious I was telling the truth: if I was red the fake claims would have to come from townies, but why would a townie every fake claim in that situation? So fake claims to me = I could NOT be red. Whatever... there are way too many incoherent arguments that day to talk about all of them.

So I don't think at all that the plan was bad, had big logical flaws, or screwed the town over. It was solid and surfaced clear reds. The town was better off for it. I am really surprised to see everyone watching this, from Ace to Ver or Incognito say it was a bad idea.

And just to be clear: I think this was indeed a town favored set-up. The mafia won so they deserve 2x the congratulations for being active and having a fantastic PR machine when it counted.


First off, yes, what you did produced results. Which may be a reason why you think your plan is so awesome. But ignoring the assumptions of what actually happened in the game, heres whats wrong.

First 3 paragraphs, yes I get it. Hatters can be legitimately used as the focus for a town circle. The problem is, they have to die to confirm themselves. Otherwise you have ppl claiming to a "hatter" who for all purposes could be a GF. Yes, you know that this is staged and that you're just being the face for the real hatter. But town doesn't know this. So town really has no reason to believe your claim. No, the fact that its open setup and town knows there's 2 KP roles doesn't confirm you when you claim to be the last KP role.

Its not true that an uncontested hatter claim is 100%, because a real hatter who knows you're a fake has no incentive to claim right away. Assume citizen is mafia. Logically, as a hatter, you'd know citizen is lying. Why don't you claim? Well, you could, but that doesn't really solve anything because either of you could be lynched, and town doesn't know who is the fake claimer. The best thing for you to do is place a bomb on citizen (who you know to be 100% red) before asking everyone to lynch YOU. This eliminates the confusion of who is lying, nets 1 red, and hopefully gets town some leads. Far superior than to just claiming outright.

Given that hatter has no reason to claim outright instantly, citizen is not 100% confirmed. Which gives town no reason to logically claim to you. Luckily for citizen and the town, everything was ok. But logically, this is a hole in the plan. Sorry.

Show nested quote +
For example, when it was leaked that there were "multiple dt rep" claims, the mafia said "why would citi.zen not tell us? he must be red!" Of course, multiple DT rep claims should have made it 100% obvious I was telling the truth: if I was red the fake claims would have to come from townies, but why would a townie every fake claim in that situation? So fake claims to me = I could NOT be red.


This would hold true if all the DT claims (2 real + 1 fake) came at the same time. But citizen claimed that he already had a DT in the bag, and he wanted the OTHER DT to come out and claim. Since nobody except citizen can confirm that there are 3 DT claims (unless citizen outs his DT), then no, citizen is again not confirmed. Another hole.

Show nested quote +
On August 05 2010 12:41 citi.zen wrote:
On August 05 2010 08:40 Incognito wrote:

On another note, with citizen's plan: I'm surprised mafia didn't take advantage of one more major hole in the plan. Citizen called for a DT to use a mouth to claim to him. Unfortunately, that's a really bad move that can get mafia some forced lynches. Nobody seemed to see that mafia can claim to be a DT mouth (for a fake DT obv), then claim DT found a red. Town lynches said "red" the next day, but he flips up town. Mafia (fake DT mouth) says oh hmm my DT must be a fake, then offers a town name to lynch. Town lynches the "DT" and oops! its not a DT, whereupon the fake DT mouth finally dies. Which takes 3 whole days. Just imagine how much chaos the mafia can cause throughout that period, not to mention that you still have unresolved issues with the fake claim by citizen etc. So yes, BC blasting citizen was warranted even if he was town. But I think he would've done a more thorough job as town there if he saw things from a slightly different perspective. Regardless, there are numerous things wrong with citizen's plan, as Ace kindly pointed out.


This is a non-issue. If the mafia fake-claimed to have their own DT, there would be too many DTs so we would not trust their "checks". The problem then would be how to find the fake-claim vs. the real one - and here the confirmed DT would help.

Like I said, everybody talks of "many holes" but... the details are sketchy.

Whatever, I will drop it.


If mafia fake claimed to have their own DT, then yes logically you trust none of the checks. But town would have done it anyway. Either way, a fake DT claim screws with the whole plan also because isn't the whole point of your plan to make a circle? What good is a circle when you don't know what info to trust? And don't say you had a confirmed DT just because one claimed to you.

I never claimed the plan was "awesome", only that it improved the position of the town by at the very least surfacing a red counter claim. To your specific objections:

1. If you are a hatter and you see someone ask for DT role-claims, the best play is NOT be to stay silent and use your bombs, it is to prevent the role-claims right there by coming clean. Again, it's a matter of the hatter being a mafia player first and a blue role second. The bombs aren't everything -surfacing a red and protecting the DTs are well worth coming out of hiding for. Conversely, if a hatter comes out in this situation and there is no counter-claim, I would be very much inclined to trust them.

2. On the DT multiple claims: if I were red it would make no sense to fabricate multiple claims. The goal would be to make the process look "smooth" and gain the trust of the DTs. Coming up with stories about multiple claims destroys this trust, raises question marks, and increases the likelihood of getting lynched. It doesn't make any sense.

3. On your last comment - this is what you originally said:

mafia can claim to be a DT mouth (for a fake DT obv), then claim DT found a red.

If the mafia used a red as a "mouth" the plan already worked! Remember the goal was to generate additional information.

At any rate, thanks to you and Ace for at least trying to think this through, rather than just throwing around the word "hole" without any actual arguments.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-05 21:11:35
August 05 2010 21:08 GMT
#3805
@ Incognito:

1. Yes, I think it was optimal for DT in that situation to send one and only one of the 2 people they checked as a messenger. The benefits far outweighed the costs, at that particular junction in the game. If I were a DT seeing this unfold I would not have hesitated.

2. You can choose to believe that a red in that position would fabricate those stories, but I don't see how any WIFOM benefits outweigh the risks.

3.
Additional information. But at what cost? You've outed a mafia, but you don't know who it is. Could potentially be ANY one of the mouths, or ANY one of the DTs hiding behind them. It takes too much time/effort to find which one is the correct mafia in this instance.

Actually, in the scenario you brought up (single fake claim = only 2 messengers), it takes a single night check to verify both messengers. Far better odds than checking people at random, no? For things to be more complicated there need to be more fake claims, exposing more reds - not a bad outcome for town (what in fact happened).

Generally, I don't think any plan to be 100% proof - such a sure win path goes against the entire philosophy of mafia games. Good plans simply help their respective team improve their odds. I continue to think this was such a plan: low cost (a green that was likely dead anyway) and high potential benefits. All dependent of course of how other players chose to respond. I would do it again in a heartbeat.

What is obvious from these conversations is that while this was a pro-town play to me/zeks/kris, it was not well understood or thought through by anyone else, be it other players or observers. For this reason I needed to be active that day, and that's all on me.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-06 13:17:37
August 06 2010 12:18 GMT
#3811
If you were in the game you'd be more aware of the details, otherwise we're in danger of talking past each other.

For example, you say

You don't even know if your "DT" is confirmed. You're just assuming it since he told you you were townie.


This is inaccurate... as I explained previously I knew with a very hight likelihood my DT was clear: I personally chose the night 2 check target (zeks), and he got it right. Now, I could have been approached by a red and chosen another red to check by chance, but I liked my chances.

You can believe the correct play in my position was to wait and further "confirm" my DT. The alternative was no better though: lynch someone based on inactivity or post analysis (I would have incorrectly pushed for misder or someone similar). We had no firm lead at that time and the mafia had two attempts to snipe blues every night. Zeks, kris and myself had these conversations before going public and decided the risks were well worth the rewards in this situation.

And yeah, the plan, like any plan, required people to be on board, or at the very least act a bit more rationally. Again, you had to be in the game and pay attention to the details, but the other DT's circle was infiltrated, a vet randomly roleclaimed to BC in PMs and the vigi blindly trusted BC and told him everything on AIM. Even after I flipped red nobody went back to check the posts from the day - smart people had made transparently bad arguments, why else do you think I was sure BC was the GF?

Whatever :-)
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
August 06 2010 13:29 GMT
#3813
On August 06 2010 22:14 zeks wrote:
As much as this game is about analyzing and question everything

Its also about trust - laying out possibilities and probabilities. Townies ain't going to be able to win without communication and teamwork. Not everyones going to be a DT and have rolechecks to 100% confirm someone - for those that aren't DT you have to draw the line on who's reliable and who's not. I think eventually everyone should be reaching out to someone during the duration of the game.

Right. Not even "trust", it's "calculated risk". This is what everyone does in every single mafia game, Incognito included.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
August 06 2010 23:09 GMT
#3816
I feel you've made up your mind a log time ago without looking at the specifics and we're just going in circles for the sake of it.

Simple question: if you, Incognito, are a the real hatter in this game, and a red (myself for example) claims to be the real hatter, asking for PM role claims. The town seems to trust him. Do you, Incognito, come clean immediately, or stay quiet waiting to place your bomb, at the risk that the DTs and other blue roles will be exposed?What play do you think helps and/or hurts the town more?
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-07 02:08:25
August 07 2010 01:17 GMT
#3822
If you think all people will refrain, you've been watching a different game. Given how everyone had played up to that point in time, a 90% plan was actually pretty good, and I will take it every time, unless someone shows me the 100% alternative.

Edit: and no, I don't view your other points as valid, I am just tired of going around in circles: we started with you telling me that you're surprised nobody had thought of this huge hole: a single mafia posing as a DT mouth would screw up up for 3 days. We went over that. You also said that Ace had exposed the other holes (read Ace's posts on the usefulness of a hatter vs. circle + red leads). We then went through issue after more unlikely issue, including claims that were factually untrue, and ended up with this:

I also didn't see the harm in having 90% plans, but now I do. Town needs more sincere analysis rather than running around finding and organizing blue roles.

Yeah, ok, should have waited for the sincere analysis.

+ Show Spoiler +
FINALLY: I never thought BC was GF because he was high profile so your criticism based on choosing BM as a GF isn't applicable. I thought he was red because he was playing out of character, being totally unhelpful and posting "canned" stuff about how roles are picked without actual attempts to link it to the game. He also told the DTs to check him on day one when he made a list with 4-5 people, putting himself at the top of it. I specifically told the DT NOT to check him since if he was red he'd was the GF. When he finally became active he started making bad arguments, cementing my belief he was red. Of course, this was all probably 95% stuff (and even that only in my warped mind)... so perhaps I should have done more sincere analysis.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
August 07 2010 16:16 GMT
#3825
Do you really think the town would have been in a better place if there was no hatter claim and BC succesfully sacrificed South that day? Even the mafia didn't think that, that is why they were doing it. But you disagree... I am impressed.

And do you not see the absurdity of telling me to do more behavior analysis, then dismissing it since I could not be "certain" bc was the GF? Fine, you're welcome to think it was luck, and wait in your games for 100% confirmation. I'd love to see a single case of behavior analysis that can't tautologically be called WIFOM, or one that is 100% certain.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
August 07 2010 19:27 GMT
#3828
On August 08 2010 04:15 Ace wrote:
???

I think the better scum hunters on this forum use behavior analysis to catch Mafia. Or did I misread what you meant?

Of course, I did the same when arguing BC was red/GF. My point is that it's not 100% certain, ever.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
August 07 2010 19:41 GMT
#3830
In this game, at that point in time, behavior analysis was not going to yield better results. It was a choice between:

1. what went down,
2. letting BC sacrifice South, or
3. lynching a 3rd party.

I think option 2, the mafia option, would not have worked out better since it made BC much harder to lynch. Option 3 would yield an innocent. I don't want to name names, but the reds had given one player the nickname "mafia pet" for their play, there had been multiple leaks and multiple bad plays. I know I would not have been able to correctly pick a red in this situation at that point in time. Remember too that one medic was dead and a Dt was confirmed to the reds.

So you can lecture me about the general virtues of behavioral analysis, but in my view the game was over anyway if we went another route.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
August 07 2010 20:08 GMT
#3832
It was never "the ends justified the means", but "this was the best option on the table". I have nothing against behavior analysis in general, this is after all why we play mafia. But it's not alway the best and only solution, by itsef. In this game I would have failed at it without some pressure on the reeds, something to reveal more information.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-08 13:03:50
August 08 2010 12:47 GMT
#3838
I can tell you factually that I did not know any of the reds at the time. I had a suspicion of BC, but it was not strong enough to push for his immediate lynch. I was pretty sure that if he was red he'd be the GF based on the "DT, check me!" post, but that was a big if. I did suspect more strongly a few people who were not red based on their play (the "mafia pet" and another player), but even this wasn't strong enough to make me feel like I "had" a red.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
August 09 2010 00:12 GMT
#3841
You can say "you got lucky" but realistically the town played horrifically in a town favoured setup.

Good self-explanatory summary.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
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