EPT
Pick Your Power Mafia!
| Forum Index > TL Mafia |
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
| ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
| ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
| ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
| ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
And could you define "paranoid"? Sane = normal insane = flip flopped alignment? paranoid = ??? Does the jack get roles or just alignments with the rolecheck? | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On April 29 2010 09:42 Ace wrote: They'll continue to work. Pretty much at Night it goes like this: Inventor invents something and gives it to Player A. I'll check the invention and the rules to make sure it isn't gamebreaking. If it is I'll ask for it to be modified or a new invention, if not it's a go. The invention is now in Player A's hands. If it's an invention that doesn't like require any outside help then it stays. I'm kinda debating on if I should announce what is invented at night because this role is so damn ridiculous(but fun). Paranoid Cops = Always a guilty result. Paranoid Docs = Sheriffs (prot+roleblock) Jacks get Alignment Checks this game. Oh it's easily the strongest role in the game. Do we know the draft order? Because #1 is almost definitely dead night 1 if not mafia to stop inventions. Didn't see doc has variants. What are naive and weak? | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On April 29 2010 14:37 L wrote: Who says I'm giving it to myself? O_o. I'ma give it to you. Then Ima invent a lightning rod that kills the person I give it to. :3 Nice to see I'm still loved in these games. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On April 30 2010 12:35 Bill Murray wrote: Couldn't one make the WIFOM argument as a reason to vote [1] [1]? "Everyone else won't have the balls" Indeed one could. You just have to hope that nobody else has the balls. But then what if they vote [2][1]? [3][1]? Yay for mind games. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
The first major item of note is this: + Show Spoiler [Vanilla Scum] + You are Vanilla Scum! The ability to kill 1 player per night belongs to you. One of you must PM me a kill for the night even though all 4 of you participate in the kill. Remember you can coordinate your # picks during the draft phase. The Mafia team this round consists of: Jack, Jill, this bottle and my ecstasy pills! You win when you outnumber the town, or there is no way for them to stop you from outnumbering them. This tells us 2 things: 1. The mafia only have 1 KP in a game with 19 players. They also only have 4 members. Why is this important? With all the rolecheck abilities out there, the mafia are unlikely to stand much of a chance unless they get some very powerful roles. 2. The mafia team knew who each other were during the draft phase and were allowed to communicate with each other during said phase. Assuming they talked to each other at all, they did not overlap with each other. These 2 points lead us to a pretty simple conclusion: The mafia made sure they have very low numbers and their numbers were probably consecutive in order to guarantee that they would wind up with powerful role choices. I wouldn't be surprised if they did something like: [3] [1] [4] [1] [5] [1] [6] [1] in order to avoid overlapping with the town as much as possible while still keeping near the top. I think it is unlikely that they bid a [1] [1] or even a [2] [1] just because they were worried the town would also bid those numbers. Bill Murray already claimed he bid [1] [1]. I wouldn't be surprised if this was actually the case. I think L probably bid [2] [1] hoping that people would stack on 1. The people I'm looking at right now are these people in particular: 3. Foolishness 4. Korynne 5. Falcynn I strongly believe that 1 or 2 of them are mafia. They are also likely to go for the roles the mafia will rely upon for the game. Remember that aside from the Copy Cat (which would be a risky role for the mafia to take), if the mafia want a role that gives them additional KP, they are likely to take it with these picks. I'm specifically thinking that the mafia here will be targeting Jack of All Trades, Day Vigilante, and Vengeful Player. Keep these 3 players in mind for later. I also propose that people announce something: whether or not you moved down and what you bid. Why would you do that and why would it matter? Because it gives us an idea of what range people bid in. Remember, we want to piece together who bid what because the mafia did not stack numbers on top of each other. I realize that the mafia can lie about this, but it really doesn't matter. If they lie about their bidding numbers, then the town has an opportunity to catch them in a lie based on who else bid that number. If someone moved down, they are placed in a group with the people around them. When you find a mafia in that group, it increases the level of trust with the people around you. With this in mind, I would like to announce that I moved down. I bid [6] [1] thinking that the mafia might try for consecutive numbers starting between 2 and 4. That would mean that they would end between 6 and 8. I'm almost positive I overlapped with one of the mafia. This means that we should also be looking very hard at: 10. sidesprang 12. JeeJee I confirmed with Ace that this situation: A - [3] [1] B - [3] [1] C - [5] [1] D - [5] [2] will result in: A and B are ordered randomly, C, D. The second tie does not move you down a second time. This means that anyone who moved down yet is still above me bid at least a 6. Everyone below me moved down AND bid at most a 6. If you bid between 3 and 5 and moved down, it is especially important that you speak up. Why am I coming forward with this information right now and not after roles are selected? Because I want the town to deny the mafia the most powerful roles or at the very least control their use. We can't stop the mafia from taking roles to increase their KP, but we can still control who gets what role and try to keep the mafia away from the 3 most important ones: Inventor, Compulsive Vigilante, and Role Blocker. Why are these roles especially important? The first 2 provide the mafia with kill power EVERY NIGHT. The third one allows the mafia flexibility to get around this plan. Therefore, I want Bill Murray to take Inventor and L's replacement to take Compulsive Vigilante. Foolishness will take Roleblocker. Bill Murray, you will be making meth bombs (if Ace allows it) or at least bulletproof vests for people every night. The day post will confirm that you followed these directions. This way you cannot give the mafia additional kill power. L's replacement, the town will be directing your shots. We will vote during the day on your hit. Foolishness, you will not be roleblocking anyone. If anyone claims to be roleblocked, we will immediately lynch you. Roleblocks are much stronger for the mafia than they are for the town. I would just as soon nobody get them. tl;dr: Look hard at these 5: 3. Foolishness 4. Korynne 5. Falcynn 10. sidesprang 12. JeeJee Claim your numbers. Revealing this information does not hurt the town but does hurt the mafia. Bill Murray, L's replacement, Foolishness: you have additional instructions. Read them. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
For those near the bottom of the list (which I'm going to mark somewhere around johnnyspazz or DarthThienAn): There are several roles which are very important for someone to pick up this game. These roles are (in no particular order): The information roles - Tracker, Alignment Cop, Role Cop The hit-related roles - Medic, Meth Dealer, Veteran, Bulletproof Other - Copy Cat It is very important that we have at least the threat of these roles out there. With this in mind, I'm arguing that if you are near the bottom of the list, you should think very hard about selecting one of these roles. While you might wind up not getting anything, it is more important that we have these roles in the game than it is that you get a role. DO NOT pick something like Pardoner or Floridian just so you can get a role. DO NOT pick something like Jack in the hopes that it somehow slipped all the way down to you. The mafia will not allow a role like that to fall this far. For those above that on the list: Try to pick something that will be useful. You can choose to pick one of the roles mentioned above. You can also choose to pick a KP role in an attempt to deny the mafia that role. Just be mindful of your place in the selection and your limitations as a player. If you don't think you will be able to use a KP role responsibly, either don't take it, or take it and don't use it (or use it at the direction of the town). Just be careful. Remember, the longer this game goes on, the more information the town has, and the more likely it is that the town will win. Don't let the mafia whittle us down too much early and we will be stronger later. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 01 2010 14:15 [NyC]HoBbes wrote: I bid [4] [1] Okay this makes things interesting. This also changes my assumptions a little bit. This is the information that we have at this time: + Show Spoiler [Drafting order] + 1. Bill Murray - I think he was [1] [1] - he needs to confirm 2. L (or replacement when he/she gets access) - I think he was [2] [1] - he needs to confirm 3. Foolishness 4. Korynne 5. Falcynn 6. [NyC]HoBbes - [4] [1] 7. ~Opz~ 8. d3_crescentia 9. Caller 10. sidesprang 11. Qatol - [6] [1] 12. JeeJee 13. DarthThienAn 14. johnnyspazz 15. Amnesia 16. Zona 17. citi.zen - [12] [3] 18. Radfield - has to be the same as Scamp 19. Scamp - has to be the same as Radfield If Hobbes had not moved down, he would be at the very most #4. Because he is #6 in the list, we know that he moved down. What does that tell us? Almost everyone duplicated their numbers. This makes our job both easier and harder. We still need to be looking hardest at the people at the top of the list: 3. Foolishness 4. Korynne 5. Falcynn because it is possible that they did not duplicate. Remember, because the mafia know what each other will be bidding, they are less likely to duplicate a number than any of us. These 3 are the most likely mafia at this point. However, it also means that outside of those 3, the mafia are likely distributed decently randomly throughout the rest of the list. Just because this has changed does not mean that any of my other points have gone away. Be mindful of everything else. If you don't like something that I have said, talk about it. Productive conversation helps the town and hurts the mafia. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 01 2010 16:39 Ace wrote: Wait I think I just noticed a sublte mistake in draft order. Updated It should be: Radfield Scamp Zona citizen before I had it as zona citizen radfield scamp Okay that tells us that Zona bid [12] [3 or less]. We know nothing about Scamp's or Radfield's bids other than that they duplicated with someone and it was <= 12 | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 01 2010 18:02 Korynne wrote: Okay, so from my number I can deduce: Scenario #1: BM picked [1][1] L is not [2][1], he probably picked [1][1] (I remember him saying that in the beginning when he was like omg I want inventor). That means him and BM are both [1]s, which means Foolishness picked [1] as well and EVERYONE ON THE LIST HAS A DUPLICATE. That seems rather unlikely if you ask me...but so far no numbers have been out of order. Scenario #2: At most 3 people have unique numbers. Since I picked [1], and I'm not first, then clearly I am not unique. Therefore everyone before me are the only people that can be unique. So there are at most 3 people who are unique. Whatever that means... That's pretty cool, because if you are mafia it is probably a bad idea to lie about your numbers because it might end up being no one else has that number, or you end up in a spot where you can't possibly be with that number, etc etc. If there is a dispute between 2 people (one of them must be lying due to list ordering) then a simple cop check will fix up the mafia the next day. Correct. If you picked [1] [anything] only the people above you could have unique numbers. Now all we need to do is have Bill Murray confirm his numbers. If he really did pick [1] [1], then everyone has a duplicate number. This means that we can group people by their number choices. If you find a mafia in your number choice group, we can treat the other members of that group as innocent or SK. That should give us a nice base to work with. Moral of the story is: people, keep claiming your numbers. If you don't you're on the short list to be lynched. As for your role, I would recommend something that takes KP out of the hands of the mafia. Personally, I would go with Jack, Vengeful Player, or Day Vigilante. However, you had need to be transparent with the use of your role. Those are very powerful roles, and the town is better off not having them at all than having them misused. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 01 2010 19:21 Bill Murray wrote: worry about what i pick, not what number i picked Bill, why are you withholding your number? As I've already explained, your number cannot hurt the town or the SK. It can only hurt the mafia. On May 01 2010 19:37 Bill Murray wrote: im as green as the grass on a lawn On May 01 2010 19:37 Bill Murray wrote: i don't know if i will take inventor, as I can't trust anyone (they have to give their gifts to someone) If you're really green, you would rather that you have the role Inventor than anyone else have it. If you don't want your targets to have anything good, give them something like a gun without bullets. If you actually want to help the side you just claimed for, you will give out veteran vests or alignment check kits because they don't help the mafia but they help the town. Then it doesn't matter who you gave your inventions to. Nothing else helps the town as much as taking that role. Don't try to out think this, Bill. Just think through the logic of the stuff I have already presented. On May 01 2010 19:26 Korynne wrote: I don't get why this is such a big deal. =( I'm worried about this plan Qatol. If Bill/L/Foolishness are mafia and just skip their designated thing or worse, pick someone else's then we're kinda screwed no? Like, if Bill picks compulsive vigilante, and then his mafia buddy later along the road picks up the inventor. We don't know who it is, and L can't get compulsive vigilante so we lose the double lynch... Bill acting funny has got me thinking and worried about this whole plan in general. Easily compensated for. First of all, it hands us a mafia with one of these 3 roles. That is a big hit for the mafia. Second of all, just consider taking one of them yourself (preference for the earlier ones in the list of 3). Just leave the threat out there that the "best" roles may not fall down to the mafia where they want to take them. On May 01 2010 19:15 Korynne wrote: Should I tell you guys my choice? Do not tell us until after the roles are given out. In fact, consider rethinking your choice if you don't trust Bill, L's replacement, or Foolishness. On May 02 2010 00:26 DarthThienAn wrote: Radfield's numbers make NO sense to me ([10][1]). Not pointing the figure I'm just really confused about how the draft order worked. If everyone got duped, then how is [10] after [12]? We really need our top players to announce their numbers - it's possible that BM dodged a dupe and that's why he's on top. But that still doesn't explain why Radfield is behind citi.zen. Scamp's number would help as well. On May 01 2010 16:39 Ace wrote: Wait I think I just noticed a sublte mistake in draft order. Updated It should be: Radfield Scamp Zona citizen before I had it as zona citizen radfield scamp That should account for your discrepancy. I'll post an updated list at the end of this post. On May 02 2010 00:31 sidesprang wrote: As to guessing what numbers the mafia picked, and apply some logic behind it, i think it would problably be as hard as to get a succesfull day 1 lynch. Atleast untill we catch one of the mafias Agreed. The numbers probably won't help us in the short run (unless the mafia lie and we catch them), but in the long run, it is a way to find mafia and innocents logically (meaning anyone can do it and the mafia can't argue their way out of it). On May 02 2010 03:04 Foolishness wrote: Did anyone else interpret this post as "waaa I'm upset that I was outsmarted by all these people and ended up low on the draft list waaa"? Thanks for the vote of confidence. You had better pick roleblocker. On May 02 2010 03:50 DarthThienAn wrote: On another note, are we following Qatol's plan for the first 3? Is there a good argument why we shouldn't? I haven't seen one so far. On May 01 2010 19:27 Radfield wrote: Seems to me that the Jack of all Trades needs to be monitored. It's just as powerful as Compulsive Vigiliante, if not more so. Since Korynne is on board, she could take that role. Not really. Compulsive Vigilante gets to hit every night. Jack gets 1 chance to use the Vigilante role. For the mafia, Investigate (gives alignment) is only useful for finding the SK, talk just isn't that strong except in the hands of very specific people, and Protect doesn't help the mafia much. Shoot is good. Remember, the Jack only gets 1 shot with each role. I'm honestly more worried about Day Vigilante (which can't be blocked). + Show Spoiler [Updated number list:] + 1. Bill Murray - high number (unique?) - hasn't completely claimed 2. L (or replacement when he/she gets access) - unique number or [1] [1] - hasn't claimed 3. Foolishness - [1] [1] 4. Korynne - [1] [5] 5. Falcynn [1] [5-20] or [4] [1] - hasn't claimed 6. [NyC]HoBbes - [4] [1] 7. ~Opz~ - [4] [1-14] - hasn't claimed 8. d3_crescentia - [4] [14] 9. Caller - [4] [14-20] or [6] [1] - hasn't claimed 10. sidesprang - [6] [1] 11. Qatol - [6] [1] 12. JeeJee - [6] [1-20] or [8] [1] - hasn't claimed 13. DarthThienAn - [8] [1] 14. johnnyspazz - [8] [4] 15. Amnesia [8] [4-20] or [10] [1] - hasn't claimed 16. Radfield - [10] [1] 17. Scamp - [10] [1-20] - hasn't claimed 18. Zona - [12] [1-3] - hasn't claimed 19. citi.zen - [12] [3] If you haven't claimed, you are a suspect. I expect the mafia to try and hold out as long as possible to give them flexibility about lying (just in case their number was tripled up). Claim your numbers! | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 02 2010 04:40 Korynne wrote: I don't know. But if any of the first two are mafia we're pretty screwed with this plan. If I was mafia I'd rather let BM or L die, and then have double kill power for the rest of the nights. BM can only hide for 1 night if he isn't the inventor. L can hide for 2 since vigi can't kill first night. Then next night we go oh shi--- mafia killed two people at night. And we can't even prove anything for sure, like if L takes Jack of all Trades, he can hide for 3 nights, or if town votes for the vigi hit to be on a townie during the night there's no reason not to just go ahead and do it. And then if we get paranoid of his role, he might've picked meth man instead and we all go omg we gotta check him and boom, all our investigators are dead (so let's please at least coordinate the rolechecking guys). So I'd say BM's role is pretty safe, in terms of he's outed the second day if he's not inventor. L's is the one I'm worried about, if he is mafia then he can pick meth man or jack of all trades and then when he finally gets outed like 3rd or 4th day then they have already easily secured the double lynch. Foolishness' role is pretty safe for town too, in terms of well if he tries to roleblock he gets killed. Why did you choose to place the compulsive vigilante role as second, Qatol? Also what are your thoughts on having somebody closer to the back of the draft claim copy cat? This way we know if mafia decides to steal it, and if they do we offer them up some "useless" role. I would suggest someone taking the Floridian at the end, just so we can lynch that person if copy cat is taken. Floridian being useless This way if copy cat is not mafia, then mafia will have to kill someone less significant the first night. If copy cat was mafia, it would still be pretty hard for them to do anything since town is watching them. So if compulsive vigilante dies first night, then we just treat copy cat as him instead. So really I see no drawbacks to this idea. Now to pick a copy cat, and to pick the Floridian. I suggest the following format: We want them to be closer to the back of the line, since we're wasting ability to get good KP/investigative roles if we put them in the front. So I suggest picking from 16 onwards. So I select: 18. Zona to be the Floridian. 17. Scamp to be the copy cat. Since both these roles are heavily controlled by town (and the Floridian is pretty much "useless") it wouldn't make sense for me to give these roles to my partners if I was scum, since Floridian pretty much kills one of 4 mafia roles, and the copy cat is controlled by town like the first couple roles. Any issues with this? Fine. If you're that worried about one of the first two being mafia, take compulsive vigi or inventor as insurance. Just don't tell us which one it is until after the drafting phase is over. That should make the mafia a lot less willing to gamble. The only reason I chose compulsive vigi to be second was because I saw it as potentially a less threatening role than inventor. (Guns with 2 bullets or armor piercing bullets anyone?) I had already been thinking about the copy cat. I was just thinking we would make sure not to lynch someone early on the list in the day 1 lynch. It is unlikely that whoever we manage to lynch has something particularly amazing. However, I am strongly against anyone picking Floridian. I think that pick should be made to ensure that we have detectives/medics/veterans. Floridian doesn't help us do that. I was actually planning on taking Copy Cat myself and roleclaiming based upon what the role is. However, I'm okay with someone near the end taking it and us just making sure that person gets a useless role. I just thought it would be easier for the town if we were a bit more flexible, just in case the role is strong. If the role is strong and I get it, I'll volunteer to get lynched/shot/whatever if you aren't already convinced that I'm working for the town. On May 02 2010 04:55 Foolishness wrote: Let me just say, that I highly doubt you would have posted all this stuff if you had wound up 1-5 on the list. Why do you fail to incriminate yourself in your analysis of what the town should do? And it's funny that you're number 11 on the list. According to your analysis, you are just as suspicious as anyone on that list, yet you fail to say so. And can you remind me why you picked 10-12 to "look hard at"? It seems arbitrary and a way to deflect attention off yourself (I may have missed it in your post if you already said so). And why do you neglect BM and L in this list? As far as we know, they both picked 1,1 with me. My guess is you're trying to butter them up so they listen to your plan. We all know how sensitive BM and L are; if you incriminated them they probably wouldn't listen to you at all (and it's kinda funny how BM doesn't want to listen to you anyways). Wooo and the criticism starts! I claimed that I picked the number 6 in an attempt to clash with the mafia. Believe me or don't believe me. It's your choice. However, think about the situation logically. FACT: The mafia know each others' draft numbers. FACT: The town do not know the draft numbers of anyone else. LIKELY VALID ASSUMPTION: The mafia will not deliberately pick the same number as another mafia because they want to augment their KP. CONCLUSION: The mafia were less likely to conflict than anyone else. Now, when I wrote that, I didn't realize that we would have the ridiculous number of conflicts that we have. We are down to a list where only L or Bill Murray could have had a conflict. I originally ignored BM and L because I thought they picked the numbers they claimed earlier. I also assumed that the town wouldn't mass pick 1 after they claimed to have picked it. I was apparently wrong. As far as why I pointed out JeeJee and sidesprang, remember, I claimed earlier that I picked my number intending to clash with the mafia going 3-6. I assumed that one of them is mafia because of that. That suspect list has been invalidated a bit by the information we have gotten from the number claims. As for why I left myself out of that list, I was hoping that people would have figured out by now that I am not mafia. Can you see anyone else here other than Korynne who is actually trying to help the town? But keep accusing me if you want. I have nothing to hide.  Zona, I know your post is there, I'm addressing it now. I just want to get this out here to keep people from picking Floridian. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 02 2010 05:08 Zona wrote: I'm glad someone's stepping up with the first proposals for the town. Yet once again, in yet another game, I have to take issues with the blind spots in the plan, as well as the "I declare it, thus it must be so" tone and mindset. I'm sorry you took it that way. I'm actually usually pretty open to valid criticism of my proposals. The more holes we find now and plug, the less holes there are left for the mafia to find later. I think it's clear to everyone that Inventor and Compulsive Vigilante are by far the most powerful and influential roles in the game, so it's no surprise when you mention them, but I find it curious you lump the roleblocker with them. The roleblocker is a very weak role for town, and while it can be useful for mafia, there are far better picks for them. The only critical situation where I see mafia really wanting the roleblocker is to counter a vocal pro-town bulletproof player, as they will have no other way to get rid of them. It's true that the roleblocker can shut down a town power role, even perhaps the compulsive vig or inventor, but don't overestimate the importance of having such roles active for the town. A compulsive town vig will likely hit a lot of town anyways, and depending on which plan the town inventor follows (night-protect vests, investigate kits, etc), it's similar to a medic, or a cop. To be honest a town inventor might get more mileage out of more wild ideas than the ones presented so far. Still, this is just a relatively minor issue I have with your plan. I agree that it might actually be stronger if the town uses it well. However, at least early, I don't trust anyone. I'd rather just buy us time and interfere with the mafia's ability to kill us for now. We can re-evaluate this later in the game More importantly is the lack of focus on town grabbing powers that are important to town success. Particularly, investigative roles (tracker, alignment cop) that are very important for town. Now you mention that these are "very important" in your post but then ask that those near the bottom try to get them? Shouldn't players in the middle or even higher up aim to snag these? Your proposal seems focused on denying powers to mafia, which is a good thing. But that's only HALF the story, and missing the important other half: grabbing essential powers for the town. Without investigative roles on the town's side, the town's chances of winning are very low. When I was digging through statistics of played games when trying to ensure that the balance in Micro-MAFIA was as best as it could be - I found something very striking. In the absense of cops, even a 5:1 ratio of town to mafia was shown to be mafia favored. And it's striking how many games are lost for town when the cop dies early on. This showed me that investigative powers are core to a town's success. In fact, given the unknown sanity on the alignment cop - the tracker is likely the most powerful investigative role in the game. This is really why I don't like how you list roleblocker as the third thing for town to grab - when tracker and alignment cop are far more important for town members high up in the draft order to choose. It's all good to deny the mafia strong powers - I agree this is important. But if town gets denied the investigative powers, it will be very difficult to identify the right targets to lynch, unless you are banking on scum making mistakes. But I'll reiterate - in the absense of cops, even a 5:1 ratio of town to mafia was found to be mafia favored. Town needs the investigative powers. Getting investigative powers is as important, if not moreso, than denying mafia killing powers. So focusing on the latter misses at least half of the picture. I fully agree. That was why I specifically told the players in the middle to look at those roles as well as the KP roles. On May 01 2010 15:19 Qatol wrote: For those above that on the list: Try to pick something that will be useful. You can choose to pick one of the roles mentioned above. You can also choose to pick a KP role in an attempt to deny the mafia that role. Just be mindful of your place in the selection and your limitations as a player. If you don't think you will be able to use a KP role responsibly, either don't take it, or take it and don't use it (or use it at the direction of the town). Just be careful. The players at the end should only be looking at those roles for redundancy purposes. I'm making sure that we don't lose any of those potentially important roles. I hope I didn't imply that the people in the middle of the list shouldn't take those roles. As for why I added roleblocker to the list: I'll tackle this when talking about why I'm giving the mafia information about special roles. Finally, I really dislike how you make a declaration as if your proposal is the only one to be followed, and make statements as extreme as "we will immediately lynch you" if someone steps out of line - especially when your plan is flawed. As well, if the top draft order people actually do listen to you, then they've basically claimed their role day 1, making it a lot easier for the mafia to take steps to mitigate their power. A major part of the mafia's game plan is to identify which players have the power roles which are a threat to them - your plan does that for them. I'd rather players make their picks in secret, and only claim when necessary. This keeps the mafia guessing as to who has what power, and who is really a threat to them. Okay the reason I lumped roleblocker into the list of the "really important roles" is because of how we are using the first 2 roles. Basically, I don't want an anonymous roleblocker preventing town vigi shots or the distribution of meth bombs/night protections. Because of that, I decided it was important to add roleblocker into the list of "important roles." As for making the roles public, notice that I only called for the roles we want to deny the mafia to be made in public. I have specifically avoided telling Korynne and anyone else below her which role to take for this exact reason. Summary and a proposed alternative: Qatol's plan focuses mainly on denying mafia powers (the good part) and misses the boat on grabbing essential town powers, such as investigative roles (the bad part). While he does mention the "importance" of various roles to the town, the way he asks players to pick does not put any real emphasis on getting such roles. Also, he wants certain players to pick certain roles - so if his plan is followed, it's clear to the mafia who owns what powers. Alternative, better proposal: Follow Qatol's emphasis on the compulsive vig and inventor roles, but not the roleblocker. Include the tracker and alignment cop in the "group of important roles". Do not follow Qatol's plan of person x in the draft order picks role y. Instead, if you are a town player high in the draft order, go for one of these, but don't make it obvious which one you have, so it's harder for mafia to arrange their plans on how to deal with these powers. While it's a risk that certain players in the draft order won't get their pick if not all the picks are laid out beforehand, that risk applies to mafia too. If town members DID in fact follow the plan and picked the role that they were told to, mafia can also pick roles without fear of being bumped into vanilla. I'm hoping I have clarified everything for this and this part is moot now? Let me know if I missed anything. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 02 2010 06:21 Zona wrote: Whoa whoa whoa...I don't think there's a single part of this plan I like. Now I don't mind being a sacrifice for the town if the plan was sound - but there's a lot going against it. Let's suppose that the plan is "activated" because the person who was supposed to take copy cat wasn't able to, and thus the "lynch floridian day 1" part comes into play. First of all, the only defense we have against mafia is our numbers - each living townie represents a bit more time we have remaining until the mafia dominates the town and wins - we shouldn't sacrifice townies so casually - ESPECIALLY BY POSSIBLY TURNING THE DAY ONE LYNCH, which is incredibly useful for information, INTO SOMETHING THAT GRANTS NO INFO AT ALL since mafia can just join with the town to lynch the Floridian. Second of all, there's no need to fix in place multiple rolepicks as well as a definite day one lynch just to defend against the threat of mafia taking copy cat. Rather than possibly fixating on a particular person for the lynch, simply say that the day one lynch will be chosen from the latter half of the draft order - there probably won't be any strong roles among them. And if you're worried about the possibility that vanilla will be lynched day 1, our protective powers should be focused on the upper echelons of the draft order, so mafia will have to risk missing out on their kill if they really want to score one of the powerful roles for the copy cat. Thirdly, the Floridian is the wrong choice to hand to the mafia even if this plan was a good idea. While it's not a great role in town hands since its power then depends on how good that player's judgement is, it's pretty useful for mafia. Being able to place a hammer vote anonymously is actually pretty useful, especially as the game progresses and the number of players involved diminishes. Summary: Even if copy cat ends up in mafia hands, the chances of the copy cat gaining a great power is low, and can be even made lower by taking appropriate precautions, without resorting to a plan that involves possibly giving up the information gained from the day one lynch, fixing in place a few rolepicks that might have picked something useful, AND sacrificing the eventual "Floridian". Plus even if the plan was a good idea (I don't think it is), the Floridian is the wrong role to sacrifice. I can confirm that I have already selected copy cat. If someone lower than me on the list wants to take it, I can change this and go after one of the roles I asked the middle of the list to be targeting. We do not need to use Floridian to nullify copy cat. Like Zona says, just lynch someone near the middle/bottom of the list. It is more important to get information out of this lynch than it is to stop a role that the mafia might not even have. Nobody pick Floridian If we lynch vanilla, we just have our protections/the first vest go to people early on the list. Also, the person who grabbed Jack can use Doc or Veteran. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 02 2010 07:59 Korynne wrote: What about roleblocker? I think Qatol's argument for adding that to the list makes sense. I'll be checking back on this thread if you guys want to add a 4th role for me to take. I guess Qatol will take Copy Cat then. Claim a vet/bulletproof later or no? If L's replacement doesn't check into the thread, I want you to take compulsive vigi (so we don't have to worry that Foolishness is also active). In that case, the failsafes become Falcynn and Hobbes. + Show Spoiler [Draft Numbers:] + 1. Bill Murray - [17] [4] 2. L's replacement - 18+ or [1] [1] - hasn't claimed 3. Foolishness - [1] [1] 4. Korynne - [1] [5] 5. Falcynn [1] [5-20] or [4] [1] - hasn't claimed 6. [NyC]HoBbes - [4] [1] 7. ~Opz~ - [4] [1-14] - hasn't claimed 8. d3_crescentia - [4] [14] 9. Caller - [6] [1] 10. sidesprang - [6] [1] 11. Qatol - [6] [1] 12. JeeJee - [6] [1] 13. DarthThienAn - [8] [1] 14. johnnyspazz - [8] [4] 15. Amnesia [8] [4-20] or [10] [1] - hasn't claimed 16. Radfield - [10] [1] 17. Scamp - [10] [1-20] - hasn't claimed 18. Zona - [12] [1] 19. citi.zen - [12] [3] The non-claimants are: L's replacement Falcynn ~Opz~ Amnesia Scamp | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 02 2010 08:20 Korynne wrote: No, I mean should we have someone in the back claim a vet/bulletproof role so we can lynch them if necessary if mafia steals copycat. Actually I've been thinking about this. I think we almost WANT the mafia to take copycat from me. If they do, they have to use someone in the top 10. There are still KP roles to be found in that range. The mafia really want to grab copy cat with the last person they have on the list. So I guess it tells us exactly how valuable the role is to the mafia. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 02 2010 09:34 Korynne wrote: Oh, as in lynch all the important people in the beginning of the list who picked 1? Hobbes is mafia!! =P On a side note, despite picking evens, noone picked 2, which would've made them first pick. =P Actually, I originally picked [2] [3] but decided to move down and try to clash with the mafia. Either way, enough side tracking. I hope everyone knows what they should be doing? | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 02 2010 11:29 Scamp wrote: Okay I just read through the thread with 30 minutes to spare. My numbers were [10] [11] I'm totally down with taking Copy Cat. No I'm taking it. We don't want the mafia to be able to use one of their later members on the role. Take one of the utility roles I mentioned earlier. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 02 2010 11:46 Qatol wrote: No I'm taking it. We don't want the mafia to be able to use one of their later members on the role. Take one of the utility roles I mentioned earlier. Actually, thinking about it, you shouldn't be taking anything except medic. Not with your track record. You have had 2 prots every time you've had the role. No way should you be taking something like copy cat. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 02 2010 11:55 Scamp wrote: Bleh. I feel like I'm being typecast here. Well you don't have to. I just remember how strong you were at it in previous games. Just try to pick something useful. I'm not going to tell you what to do. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
| ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 02 2010 12:38 Bill Murray wrote: no, that means someone else expects someone with a crucial role will be killed, or that you are lying. I am a proponent of the faction of lynching you to see if someone picking before you really took thsi role, but I feel like you are town aligned, so I won't vote it myself. I'm going to be looking at the list, and if you are mafia, you are very weak. And that person doesn't want the role out in the open. That person is also in the first 9 players, assuming that L is out of the game. My guess? That person is also mafia. If you really want to confirm that I don't have it, have a role cop check me out. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 02 2010 12:39 Bill Murray wrote: Ah, you're at the end of the list. I have no fucking idea why you would pick that... If I was #16 I would pick something like Medic that could really help the town. Who are you talking to with this? Radfield (who is #16) didn't talk about his role selection and I was #11 with L not making a pick (I think?) so really #10. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
| ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
1. Bill Murray - [17] [4] 2. Foolishness - [1] [1] 3. Korynne - [1] [5] 4. Falcynn [1] [5-20] or [4] [1] - hasn't claimed 5. [NyC]HoBbes - [4] [1] 6. ~Opz~ - [4] [14] 7. d3_crescentia - [4] [14] 8. Caller - [6] [1] 9. sidesprang - [6] [1] 10. Qatol - [6] [1] 11. JeeJee - [6] [1] 12. DarthThienAn - [8] [1] 13. johnnyspazz - [8] [4] 14. Amnesia [8] [4-20] or [10] [1] - hasn't claimed 15. Radfield - [10] [1] 16. Scamp - [10] [11] 17. Zona - [12] [1] 18. citi.zen - [12] [3] This gives us a few potential groups: + Show Spoiler [Group 1] + Bill Murray + Show Spoiler [Group 2] + Foolishness Korynne Falcynn + Show Spoiler [Group 3] + Falcynn Hobbes Opz d3_crescentia + Show Spoiler [Group 4] + Caller sidesprang Qatol JeeJee + Show Spoiler [Group 5] + DarthThienAn johnnyspazz Amnesia + Show Spoiler [Group 6] + Amnesia Radfield Scamp + Show Spoiler [Group 7] + Zona citi.zen So we have 4 mafia and 7 potential groups. There is likely only 1 mafia in each group unless they lied about their numbers. Either way, these groups are a starting point. For the first lynch, I propose that we do not select anyone in groups 1-3. The mafia likely have control of the copy cat role, and those groups are where we will likely find the most powerful roles. Of those, I have picked out 5 players who have not contributed from that list: Caller - claimed only his role and that nobody told him about role selection sidesprang - claimed his number and some sort of reasoning, but nothing else JeeJee - complained about the tiebreaks and pointed out that the town likes even numbers johnnyspazz - gave his numbers Amnesia - hasn't contributed at all + we don't have his numbers These are my thoughts on each of the 5: Caller - He likes to troll and be generally useless early in games. I don't have a strong read on his role yet. However, if he's innocent, it is also possible that he doesn't have a role because he forgot to send in a role selection PM. I don't want to take that chance quite yet. sidesprang - Relatively new player. I know he's played in a few games, but I don't know much about his posting habits. I'm going to have to go back and read his previous games to get a feel for his behavior, but I feel like he should be more active than this. JeeJee - He can be pretty iffy with his activity as well. He has had some pretty inactive games in the past, but I was very impressed with his play in WaW mafia. He needs to start talking more. johnnyspazz - Another relatively new player. However, he told me that he has been receiving coaching from Incognito. If this is the case, I find it hard to believe that he would be contributing this little when innocent. Major red flags here. Amnesia - I know nothing about him. Is this his first game? He sure doesn't seem to have his bearings about him, posting but not giving us his numbers. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt right now, but he needs to get up to speed and start contributing. Obviously, I'm going to have to go back and do a little more research when it isn't 4am, but for right now, I think johnnyspazz is our best lynch target. ## vote: johnnyspazz I may change this later, but we need to be discussing suspects. Let's get talking, guys and Korynne! As for what to do about Korynne's role discrepancy, I don't think there is much we CAN do about it at least until night time. But we need to think about using our alignment checks on the early part of the list. Let's just focus on making sure the town contributes and the mafia are forced to talk for right now. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
| ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
| ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 05 2010 05:01 Bill Murray wrote: what im saying is who gives a fuck who took that role? that was a terrible choice for someone to have picked really early. i am much more worried about who took bulletproof. And I am not worried about bulletproof at all. Why does the town care? We kill during the day. When bulletproof doesn't do anything. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 05 2010 05:15 Bill Murray wrote: what about if: 1) if i give away a gun that night vigs 2) if foolishness is pro-town 3) not sure about meth man 4) jack of all trades these are scenarios where that player that took bulletproof as mafia would put a dent in our plan you are more concerned about a weak doctor than this? weak doctor is like hit or miss bulletproof is 100% unless it's SK afaik 1) You shouldn't be doing this. We have 2 choices: 1. We can whittle down the town early when people haven't posted a bunch. 2. We can whittle down the town very slowly with lynches and sometimes the mafia will hit (see my longer post when I post it. I'm on page 18 still.) I think I'll take #2. 2) So his hit gets blocked once. We are voting on the hit, and I still don't like the town killing too much early. 3) I'd rather the meth man stay hidden (but active) and take a hit from the mafia. 4) Again, I'd rather the jack not hit at all than hit a town player. And I'll take the 1/15 (2 players dead, jack won't hit himself) chance that the jack hits the bulletproof. None of these put a dent in our plan. Bulletproof doesn't stop lynches. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 05 2010 05:21 Qatol wrote: (see my longer post when I post it. I'm on page 18 still.) I'm on my 6th page in word right now. Don't worry, it's coming. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 05 2010 05:46 Zona wrote: The copycat possibly getting weak doctor is important - it's not something that doesn't matter. If we go with the prevailing assumption that the copy cat is mafia, the mafia now have a weak doctor. But a weak doctor for the mafia is as good as any other (non-paranoid) doctor for the mafia since they already know who not to target! In fact, it seems like it would be pretty damn useful for the mafia to have a doctor as the doctor can protect against night kills against mafia members - kills from the compulsive vig, the joat's shot, and the serial killer as well. Now of course if the compulsive vig is mafia, then it's probably not as big of a deal, since the vig won't shoot his or her own team anyways. But what if the compulsive vig is town? Actually, I don't like where this leads... If we have a town compulsive vig and the town votes on who the vig should shoot (making the target public) then it becomes simple for the mafia copy cat weak doctor to prevent the hit. And better yet (for the mafia), in this situation the compulsive vig gets put in a bad light after this happens because people might suspect the vig didn't follow the town's will when the town's target didn't die. However, if we have a town copycat, I have a use for them. We know that the player is weak. Therefore, we can have that player protect people going down the list. For example, the copycat can protect Bill Murray night 2, Foolishness, night 3 etc. When the player dies, we have ourselves a mafia. All we need to do is have some sort of selection method picked out for who they need to protect. Probably not useful, but something to keep in mind. Back to my super long post. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 02 2010 19:31 Radfield wrote: Why would we do a role check on you, when in your previous post you said you didn't get the role you wanted? I took this to mean that you did not get a role at all, but maybe I'm misunderstanding it. It seems like role checking you would be a waste for now, since you're basically claiming Vanilla. But, Korynne knows one of either BM or Foolishness has the powerful role she tried to take. Assuming you followed Qatol's plan, that would mean you tried to take compulsive Vig and didn't get it(the other 'important role' in my mind would be day vig). My guess at the moment would be BM with inventor, Foolishness with CompVig, and Korynne with nothing. The real question is, is it in our best interest to have the top few on the list roleclaim(if one of them tried to lie, it's possible Korynne would know right off), or does it make sense to see what happens night one and then decide. So if anti-town inventions start getting made, or 2 obvious townies get killed, we then call for a roleclaim. Whether we roleclaim or not, I think it makes sense to have our role checks and alignment checks focused on BM and Foolishness. Inventor and CompVig are going to have a huge impact on this game, so we need to know who they are, and what alignment they are. Absolutely agreed. If anything suspicious starts happening, then we need to get these people to roleclaim. On May 02 2010 19:57 Radfield wrote: hmm, just remembered that CompVig can't shoot until night two, so that role will effectively stay hidden until that point. Qatol mentioned earlier that we should vote on who the Comp Vig kills. This seems like a great plan, and if anyone has any objections then bring them out. If the role landed in townie hands, it allows us to come to a decision as a group, and effectively double lynch each day. It also takes the risk away of a townie with poor judgment shooting up the town. If the role is in mafia hands, either they play along(which is great) or they don't. If they don't play along, we immediately know that CompVig = Mafia. Since we know the CompVig is high up on the draft list, we can quickly zero in on a mafia. So no matter who has the CompVig, we should be able to control it by voting in thread for who gets killed. Any town player would play along(given it would be extremely anti-town to not) and the mafia either go along or get quickly weeded out. So lets add a ##CompVig: Ace## to when we vote(starting on Day 2). Again if anyone has objections to this lets hear it. The big fuckup I can see is if the CompVig somehow slipped down the list into mafia hands, but I think this unlikely. Your plan for voting on CompVig kills is solid, except I think we should be doing it during the night. Often the lynch gives information. I'd rather make that kill when I'm as informed as possible. As you said earlier, Korynne probably tried to take CompVig. It was the role we assigned to her. I would be very surprised if she tried to take anything else. This means that CompVig is somewhere in the first 2 roles. I'm more worried that Inventor slipped. On May 02 2010 22:07 Zona wrote: My stance on any and all claiming at this point on the game: Right now my view is that the most important roles for town to protect (if they are indeed in town hands) are inventor, tracker, and to a lesser extent, alignment cop. Compulsive vig in the hands of a town member who follows our plan in theory is a town advantage, by having a pseudo-double lynch every day, but can still speed things more quickly to an endgame situation, especially if town's judgement is poor. Our doctors are not necessarily reliable and might even worry about being the weak variant, so it's best to give our investigators another layer of protection by letting them stay in obscurity and harder for mafia and the serial killer to identify. Every public claim from an honest town member removes a person from the list that mafia needs to consider when trying to pick off the investigators - so I am against any and all public claims. But Korynne's already given out some information that can't be taken back, we may or may not want to resolve this then suppress all further claims. Also - every keep Qatol's number breakdown post in mind when we get to the late game. I have a slightly different stance: Do not claim unless you have something to contribute. My claim told us that the copycat is likely in mafia hands (or at least a townie working against the town). Korynne's claim was important too because it told us that someone in the first 2 players is playing against the town. Just giving us your role isn't important or useful. You need to be able to give the town important information by roleclaiming. On May 03 2010 05:11 JeeJee wrote: so here's the thing unless mafia got the top 4 spots, they have a pretty good idea of who in town holds the powerful roles and will probably choose to target them over, say, citizen. otoh, if people aren't stupid, some of the ones closer to the top hopefully got bulletproof or mm to counteract this also note, so far in this thread, the following people have claimed they don't have a role: korynne - important role (not inv or rb) above him jonny - silly caller - silly falcynn - silly qatol - copy above him opz - comp vig above him i'm wondering why y'all revealed this info, but i imagine some of you are lying as docs or something which also sets up nice mindgames. if you're all telling the truth though then /facepalm i won't be claiming my role or whether i got one, i suggest more people don't either. the compulsive vig votes are a great idea, if you have an ounce of sense you should agree, so if someone has a problem with this plan, speak up now (so we may lynch you hurr durr) And still I'm wondering why you aren't contributing. People have already said that the roleclaims were stupid. Why are you just parroting these comments? On May 03 2010 10:39 Foolishness wrote: Which is great and all except we got to lynch someone right now. If Amnesia doesn't say anything he's getting my vote. I've been through 2 pages and this is the first post back on topic. Why the heck hasn't anyone been voting? Our final vote cout: Johnnyspazz: 4 Qatol, Zona, Hobbes, citi.zen Amnesia: 3 sidesprang, Foolishness, Caller Non-Voters: 11 Bill Murray, Falcynn, Radfield, d3_crescentia, Korynne, johnnyspazz, JeeJee, Scamp, Opz, Amnesia, Darthienan This is just pathetic. Where is everyone? Also, I find it odd that there was a late push to split the vote. Citi.zen coming out of NOWHERE to vote (and that's it - he didn't contribute at all after he showed up) is also pretty fishy. On May 03 2010 14:21 johnnyspazz wrote: i realize now that pointing out the people who have no abilities in the thread is very dumb because it gives the mafia a smaller list of targets to attack! i was only thinking about confirming townies...crap You realize this now? How does this confirm townies exactly? Garbage post that does nothing. On May 03 2010 14:42 ~OpZ~ wrote: It also gives the perfect opportunity for meds to just protect a smaller list of people. Inventor could claim, give someone from the top a veteran kit/bulletproof kit/nightlight to keep away the evil mafia away. Medicas can protect the other ones. We don't know who claimed Role Cop/ Alignment cop/meds... We don't need the role I tried to pick, so me claiming shouldn't matter. Compulsive vig isn't really an epic role unless you are insanely lucky, or the town is insanely coordinated and good. So we should be good. Alignment should check near top/Role cop should check near top. perhaps RC number 2, and alignment #1/3 Inventor could likely safely claim and coordinate atleast two protections. Seriously, hand out a vetkit/nightlight, and have a med protect him....If mafia hit a vet/bulletproof/protected target, they lose their nightkill... Inventor shouldn't hide, and meds should protect him if mafia are likely to hit the top of the list. We don't need the role you picked? Then why did you pick it? The town should need every role selected for one of 2 reasons: denying it from the mafia or it is useful to us. On May 03 2010 18:57 Bill Murray wrote: but assuming they are, they need to protect me, so i can be confirmed as a townie On May 03 2010 19:43 Bill Murray wrote: protect me medics, im releasing the news tomorrow. in other news, radfield likely scum or talks at times that seem detracting and anti-town Feel like explaining this one? On May 03 2010 22:24 JeeJee wrote: radfield is actually making very good points; unfortunately since he's talking to bill we won't see a sensible response. keep in mind bill's reluctance to do anything useful as of yet.. question for ace: how does the invention naming system work? can i invent a gun and call it a dt kit? or what if it's a really ambiguous thing, i.e. a beer bottle that you can hit people over the head with to roleblock them ... will it be just called beer bottle or roleblock bottle or what? basically who decides on the name and how relevant is it to the item's function? Parroting again. On May 04 2010 04:33 Bill Murray wrote: radfield, you are completely wrong here, and the fact that jeejee is all up on your jock makes me believe you all are TOTALLY not scum together. Anyways, you think I'm doing this for the clues? fuck no. If you are that dumb, you need to gtfo of my game son. If you are seriously a town aligned player, though, you need to quit arguing with me and jump on this train to glory-land. I'll explain myself to you, like I had to explain myself to someone younger than me earlier. I am not doing this because I think that we will get 1 damn clue out of it. I know we will, that's cool, whatever. The reason I am doing this is because I am say "medics, protect me, i'm calling my shot" I am TELLING the town what I'm doing BEFORE I do it. How is this not "pro-town"? I'd like to highlight this, as it is a lot scummier than most noobs will imagine. Good players will pick up on posts such as this, though, as they are taking away from someone who is trying to lead the town to a victory. Furthermore, look into his shifting of the subject into "game-theory". That's also scummy behavior. I know I'm not normally that good of a scum-hunter, and that you all have no reason to trust me yet, but i'll rectify that right now. I have just come from the other side of the fence. I have just been a mafia godfather. I know how they think right now moreso than I ever have in my life while playing as a town-aligned player in a mafia game. On top of that, i CAN and WILL organize the town. You all are free to join the town circle. Before someone is like "durrr we canst PM youz guyz", go read my role. Before someone is like "you could be lying!!!" go read my game as mafia... my ONE game in my ENTIRE life as mafia. Radfield, JeeJee, If you don't think I'm trying to be helpful you are most likely scum I agree with Bill here. He's absolutely right on JeeJee. Now I'm just waiting for his post. This makes me feel a lot better about him. If any of you have read my analysis after Mini Mafia 2, this is an example of someone making a move into the spotlight. Now I want to see if he can stay clean while there. But you aren't allowed to move out of the spotlight again, Bill. On May 04 2010 05:38 Bill Murray wrote: Well, I have just been informed I would have to only give my newspaper to one person. I had considered this, and as a result I will be inventing someone else like a gun to give someone. I am not 100% sure what it will be yet. Okay, Bill has just confirmed that he has taken inventor. On May 04 2010 06:12 Bill Murray wrote: it's a one time deal, radfield, it doesn't work like that. i just had that clarified. this is going to make creating a town circle a bit more difficult than I had previously planned. I have an idea, though, so I also am not going to be giving out armor or guns (right now) because I have no idea who is town. hope that makes sense to you as to why I would do that. Too much focus on creating a town circle. Even if you manage to make one, it isn't a guarantee that it will work because they can be infiltrated or killed off. The whole reason I was advocating armor is because if you give it to the mafia, it doesn't help that much. The primary killing mechanism of the town is the lynch. The killing mechanism of the mafia is the night hit. While the mafia will not hit each other, so an armor to a mafia doesn't help, armor to an innocent is a big help. Please read this, Bill. It is very important that you understand. On May 04 2010 06:50 Bill Murray wrote: I have already decided what I'm going to do with my invention, and I'm going to be organizing a town circle that will go into effect for the 24 hours of Day 4 Too slow and not as good as just making armor. Bill, we don't need a town circle to win. We just need time. Armor does that. On May 04 2010 07:25 Korynne wrote: Bill seems pretty okay at the moment, at least appearing to be useful-ish? I definitely would appreciate someone checking out Foolishness' alignment due to my claim that someone took CompVig before me. =\ I think compvig is more of a problem than inventor. If we make an incorrect choice in the day there's no reason, if the mafia is compvig, for mafia not to follow through with the lynch. If we choose a mafia as the target for the compvig, they can either hit the mafia, or just hit a townie. If they hit a townie, we lynch Foolishness/BM (carefully of course, hopefully alignment checked or role checked). But then we still don't know who the real compvig is. In the meantime BM/Foolishness could have picked up another useful role like DayVig or JoaT or CopyCat or whatever. So can we sort out this alignment issue for the two people ahead of me? (Of course, medics should still protect them until we know if they're mafia) This is the conclusion I came down with too. Please tell me the tracker followed Foolishness. We need to know if he visited anyone last night. If he did, it is FAR more important to kill off a mafia compvig than it is to have a town-aligned tracker. On May 04 2010 12:39 Ace wrote: Day 2 d3_crescentia (pro town Weak Doctor) has been found dead. Caller(Vanilla Towny) has been found dead. The inventor has invented a Cell Phone Night 1. Voting Starts now. With 16 alive it is 9 to lynch. Day ends at 12 AM ET/1:00 KST or in ~24 hours from now. 2 things of note: 1. The invention of a cell phone. This does NOT confirm Bill Murray's innocence yet. There is still a mafia use for a cell phone. Cell phones are frequently used to detonate bombs. If we start seeing bombs given out, then the inventor (probably not Bill) is mafia. Otherwise, the inventor (Bill) is innocent. 2. The mafia/SK hit 2 of the quieter players as far as contributions go which is kinda strange to me. Also notice that they were among the largest groups of players. They were about the spot on the list I would have expected for anti-town players trying to kill strong town without being too worried about a medic. I think they don't want large groups of mostly-confirmed townies running around. + Show Spoiler [Bid list] + 1. Bill Murray - [17] [4] 2. Foolishness - [1] [1] 3. Korynne - [1] [5] 4. Falcynn [1] [5-20] or [4] [1] - hasn't claimed 5. [NyC]HoBbes - [4] [1] 6. ~Opz~ - [4] [14] 7. d3_crescentia - [4] [14] 8. Caller - [6] [1] 9. sidesprang - [6] [1] 10. Qatol - [6] [1] 11. JeeJee - [6] [1] 12. DarthThienAn - [8] [1] 13. johnnyspazz - [8] [4] 14. Amnesia [8] [4-20] or [10] [1] - hasn't claimed 15. Radfield - [10] [1] 16. Scamp - [10] [11] 17. Zona - [12] [1] 18. citi.zen - [12] [3] Falcynn and Amnesia SERIOUSLY need to come forward with their numbers. Groups: + Show Spoiler [Group 1] + Bill Murray + Show Spoiler [Group 2] + Foolishness Korynne Falcynn + Show Spoiler [Group 3] + Falcynn Hobbes Opz + Show Spoiler [Group 4] + sidesprang Qatol JeeJee + Show Spoiler [Group 5] + DarthThienAn johnnyspazz Amnesia + Show Spoiler [Group 6] + Amnesia Radfield Scamp + Show Spoiler [Group 7] + Zona citi.zen On May 04 2010 15:33 Bill Murray wrote: I fucking gave d3_crescentia the cellphone. I know how he plays, and I knew he was good to give that to. I knew he was likely DT/Medic based upon his picking 8th. Oh well, better luck next night. And this is EXACTLY why you need to be giving out either meth bombs or bulletproof vests. You could have stopped d3 from dying or blown up a mafia/SK. On May 04 2010 21:08 Radfield wrote: OK, no excuses for not voting today folks. Looking through the thread, an obvious target has emerged. However, I'm assuming that no one has blatently lied so far about their role. Even if that's the case, we will quickly be able to find the liar. So for the moment I'm going to treat everyone's comments about themselves as FACTS. Facts: d3 and caller are dead Facts: Qatal, Korynne, Opz and possibly Falcynn(he's been a touch ambiguous) have no role Facts: Bill Murray is the Inventor and therefore Foolishness is the CompVig Facts: Someone took Copy Cat before Qatol, this person is likely mafia. Facts: Hobbes has a "fun, fun role", probably not Copy Cat, # Bill Murray - Inventor # Foolishness - CompVig # Korynne - VANILLA # Falcynn - VANILLA # [NyC]HoBbes - Fun Role(Not Copy Cat) # ~Opz~ - VANILLA # d3_crescentia - DEAD(Medic) # Caller - DEAD(VANILLA) # sidesprang - ?????Copy Cat????????? # Qatol - VANILLA Assuming these are all facts, we've just found a mafia! Of course, these are not facts, and someone could be lying. But this gives us a great place to start. Lets assume we lynch Sidesprang, 1 of 2 things happen: 1. He is anti-town. HOORAY! 2. He is pro-town. WHOOPS If he is pro-town, all of a sudden the finger has to be pointed elsewhere: 1. Qatol: He's lying about someone else claiming Copy Cat 2. Someone who claimed Vanilla is lying: Korynne, Opz or Falcynn 2a Both Korynne and Opz claimed they tried for CompVig(this situation needs to be analyzed closer) but it lends a tad of credibility. 2b Falcynn wishy washily claimed VANILLA without actually doing it 3 Hobbes actually took Copy Cat and then posted as a "fun role" to allay suspicion. This seems least likely; being high up in the draft he had no need to take Copy Cat. I think this is a great place to start. If I've made a mistake up to now someone please point it out. So, with Sidesprang as a suspect, lets look at his posting history Hmm, only two posts of any substance, and only 4 posts the entire thread. Both posts read like scum if you ask me. First post has a lot of words but little substance. Second post is mainly regurgitated obvious pro-town stuff, with a vote for the most inactive person. Also, Amnesia does NOT look fishy, he looks inactive. Now whether you are or are not Mafia Sidesprang, your actions and the claims of others paint you out to be one. Once again, this is a starting point folks. ##Vote Sidesprang ## Great logic. I fully support this. He hasn't contributed at all. And it is a definite starting place. It also fits with my theory about the night hits. ##Vote Sidesprang## On May 04 2010 21:43 Radfield wrote: Just remembered we need to vote on Comp Vig hits as well. We all know who the CV is, so please play along Foolishness. There's no point in hiding it anymore, if I can figure it out, anyone can. If you are NOT the CV Foolishness, you need to let us know, because that pegs Korynne as a liar. (Again, I'm running on the assumption that Bill is Inventor, which is highly likely at this point, and would be extremely risky for him to claim it if he's not) Originally I was going to propose ~opz~ or Falycnn. As I thought they would be most likely to be lying about CopyCat if Sidespring flips green, but looking closer I don't think it likely that either are lying. I really believe that Sidesprang WILL flip red, and at this point I think if he flips green we hit Qatol. BUT, I don't think we should hit Qatol until we find out Sidesprang's alignment. Which means we shouldn't use our CompVig hit on Qatol. Honestly, I don't think Qatol is mafia either at this point. If the Day Vig hit Sidesprang today, that would make this easier. If Sidesprang flips green, we start hitting the people who claimed VANILLA. Worse case we kill VANILLA townies, best case we hit mafia. If Sidesprang flips red, we celebrate and move on. Obivously we don't want to waste our DayVig, but this seems like a decent time to use it. If people disagree please voice it. However, our DayVig is likely near the top of the list, which means they might not live long anyways. Hobbes, I think you're the DayVig, and I also think it likely you will be targeted soon. You're one of the few people at the top of the list who has a role. You are not the Inventor or CV so you won't get medic protection. Lastly, you claimed a 'fun, fun role' which makes you a mafia target. I'm kinda hoping you actually chose Meth Man and then posted 'fun, fun role' in an effort to get yourself hit by mafia. If so you're awesome. But if not, you need to use you're ability while you still can. Please speak up people, I think my reasoning here is sound, but I'm open to other suggestions. Another absolutely solid post. If the Day Vigi is out there, please shoot SideSprang. There is one hole though: you already did a breakdown of the roles for the top 10. We KNOW that only Hobbes could be the day vigi out of them if they are innocent. The day vigi could really be anywhere on the list. On May 04 2010 23:19 Scamp wrote: Personally, I'm wondering if there's a good reason not to lynch Foolishness right now. How about we day vigi Sidesprang and then look at lynching Foolishness? On May 04 2010 23:30 JeeJee wrote: now that we know this.. # Bill Murray inventor let me add a piece of it as well # JeeJee VANILLA i didn't go for copycat so presumably we have some liars up in here either that or hobbes is mafia for the role that he is (or should be), he sure isn't doing shit with it. then again neither is sidesprang so i'm at a loss here so foolishness, who are you gonna hit tonight? Why did you do this? Your roleclaim doesn't help anyone. And how exactly do you know that Hobbes isn't doing anything with his role? On May 03 2010 05:11 JeeJee wrote: so here's the thing unless mafia got the top 4 spots, they have a pretty good idea of who in town holds the powerful roles and will probably choose to target them over, say, citizen. otoh, if people aren't stupid, some of the ones closer to the top hopefully got bulletproof or mm to counteract this also note, so far in this thread, the following people have claimed they don't have a role: korynne - important role (not inv or rb) above him jonny - silly caller - silly falcynn - silly qatol - copy above him opz - comp vig above him i'm wondering why y'all revealed this info, but i imagine some of you are lying as docs or something which also sets up nice mindgames. if you're all telling the truth though then /facepalm i won't be claiming my role or whether i got one, i suggest more people don't either. the compulsive vig votes are a great idea, if you have an ounce of sense you should agree, so if someone has a problem with this plan, speak up now (so we may lynch you hurr durr) Something seem out of place here? On May 04 2010 23:54 JeeJee wrote: for the record, caller, sidesprang, qatol and myself numbers were the same would be pretty friggin' stupid for mafia to do this, n'est pas? I'm not sure about that. You claimed your numbers later than both myself and Darth. I wouldn't be surprised at all if you had actually picked [8] [1]. On May 05 2010 00:11 Radfield wrote: I agree in theory, except for if Hobbes is the DayVig. The medic is going to protect either BM or Foolishness, which leaves Hobbes hanging as an exceptionally juicy target, with his 'fun role'. Now with all the discussion around this, there is the possibiliy of the medic protecting hobbes, so the mafia might not hit him after all. Around and around we go.... I still think we should use the DayVig hit, it's very useful right now, and thats as good as we can ask. Either we get a mafia, or we hit a townie and have very good targets for our lynch + CompVig. If we don't use the DayVig hit, what do we learn from hitting Korynne? If she flops vanilla town it means that Foolishness is for sure the CV. If she flops mafia with a special power(not CV) it means foolishness is almost certainly mafia. Because she would never claim to have tried to get CV without knowing for sure that the CV was taken in front of her. BUT! It would be very unlikely for the mafia to double up numbers on 1, 1. And that's exactly what would have happened for Korynne and Foolishness to both be mafia. For this reason, I don't think Korynne is mafia, as the story doesn't quite fit. I'd like to hear from Jeejee about his role, and hobbes confirming or denying, before deciding on the CompVig hit So just drop a vest on Hobbes. We absolutely shouldn't be talking about who to compvig hit yet. We need to focus on the lynch/ potential day vigi hit first. On May 05 2010 05:05 Zona wrote: Radfield (and everyone else discussing things along the same lines as him) - I agree sidesprang's lack of posts are a detriment to his town and the 4 posts he has are fishy, and if we go with what Qatol has claimed, it's possible sidesprang has picked copy cat. But everything else you are doing - I don't like it. You say you are not in favor of outing all the roles. But as a consequence of your posts and actions, we now have a set of what are probably serious role claims from more than half the players in the game. First of all - what does the mafia not know about the game? The mafia doesn't know who has what roles, and the mafia doesn't know who the serial killer is. So the town shouldn't help mafia figure out who has what roles - I've been saying this all game. So I've been saying that town members shouldn't claim their roles. But you know what? If town members lie about their roles - that's good, too. This is the ONLY aspect in which I think it's good for town members to lie - every other type of lie by town members usually muddles the picture and is detrimental to the town, but lying about your role - the thing that mafia doesn't know and wants to know - that's useful for the town. You are trying to pin down which of the people at Qatol's position in the draft order and above is lying about their role - but identifying liars (about roles) does NOT identify mafia! I reiterate - if you catch someone lying about almost everything else in the game, that might be a sign of mafia - but lying about your role is one thing town members likely SHOULD DO! I wish that a lot of the "vanilla" claims that have come out really are lies! But I have a bad feeling they aren't, due to the way things have played out. In fact - your push for everyone to come clean with their role does NOT identify mafia (because liars about roles aren't necessarily mafia) but also make it clearer to the mafia who has what roles, if they can discern who is lying. I'm really unhappy with what's transpired. Especially now that one pro-town doctor has been killed, and the other doctor in unknown hands with unknown sanity, it's probably now a lot easier for the mafia and the serial killer to pick off the targets they choose. (The only time a mass roleclaim is useful for town, in my opinion, is when the town is on the verge of losing and has no concrete information - then that's the time you expect honest roleclaims from every town member and hope to catch mafia and the serial killer lying. But this is a desperation move by the town, not something you should be doing mid game!) I agree that the mass roleclaim isn't good. However, what's done is done. There shouldn't be any additional roleclaims, but the ones we have we need to make use of. No, if you're town-aligned, we WILL worry about you. You have the strongest role in the game. If you don't use it responsibly, it is a huge detriment to the town. On May 05 2010 05:20 Bill Murray wrote: Quoting Zona: he's advocating not lynching liars, which is scummy as fuck people who have been hunting liars (like radfield) increase town cred a lot when he says "but identifying liars (about roles) does NOT identify mafia!" he is just trying to confuse you. No, he's advocating not lynching people who are lying about their role. Really people shouldn't be roleclaiming either way. Here is the problem: people want to lie about their roles. If you are a medic, you want to pretend to be a veteran or a green in the hopes that the mafia look elsewhere. The problem with this is that some people have the "brilliant" idea to claim a role instead of just not talking about it. On May 05 2010 05:23 Zona wrote: To give further emphasis on why it's important to preserve our roles - the serial killer. Pretty much no one has talked about our other enemy (except for a mention by Scamp) - but consider this person's abilities. Appears innocent to cops. Cannot be killed at night. Has no team - so there will be no teamwork slipups that we can catch. Other than a unlucky hit by this person on the methman, town will have to identify this person and lynch (or dayvig or venge-kill) him or her to win. If this person is careful in the thread and we fail to identify him or her by his or her posts - which is the only role that can identify this person? The tracker. The tracker is the only role (other than an inventor's inventions) that can identify the serial killer. And now it seems like the town has basically told both mafia and the serial killer which half of the players they can ignore if they're looking to kill the tracker. Stop digging after roles, please! While it would be nice to catch the serial killer, there really isn't anything we can do about him right now except look for trashy behavior and hope that Bill starts using his role better/we get protects. On May 05 2010 05:41 Radfield wrote: I'm not hunting for the copycat or the weak doctor, I'm hunting for scum, regardless of role. I'm not sure where else we can start. I'm realizing now that Qatol could have lied about being Vanilla at the start to protect himself, in which case all my logic flies out the window. It also means Sidesprang could be one of our few townies with a sweet role... ugh. I suppose if that is the case Qatol could let us know before we lynch him(...I know, again with the roleclaims....) I did not lie. I'm not stupid enough to make a move like that if I'm innocent. I don't like roleclaiming at all unless it is absolutely necessary. In this case, it was. On May 05 2010 06:25 sidesprang wrote: Someone here is definitely lying, Read: im not copycat. I can't argue against that i do not look suspicious. But the evidence against me is very circumstantial, it requires 5 people who has role claimed already to speak the truth about their role for me to be guilty. Falcynn: Needs to not have picked a role Hobbes: His fun fun role(which could have been copycat imo, prolly methman tho) is not copycat. Korynne: Needs to have picked compulsive but got nothing. I kinda believe him, as picking compulsive vigilante as third is not that far fetched. opz: Needs to have picked compulsive vigilante as number 6, seems like a stupid choice so late. Qatol: Needs to have picked copycat and told the truth about him not getting it. What all these roleclaims have in common is that they discourage mafia/sk to kill them although they are high on the list. But even in this game i find it really stupid to roleclaim, and that so many people have done it already shocks me. This made it a lesser risk for the mafia/SK to kill people high on the list as their chance of hitting a good blue is better. About why caller died idk, seems like a poor choice by the mafia/SK if they believed caller in his roleclaim. And FYI i got beta key invite yesterday(if you want proof i got in here on TL forums), and i was at work. So I have been inactive You still have yet to actually contribute. All you have done is come out and defended yourself. You won't even give us a better target! | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
| ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 05 2010 06:54 DarthThienAn wrote: lol. Korynne, that doesn't tell us anything, why'd you roleclaim? Opz is also suspicious to me though. He claims he went for CompVig AFTER Korynne already stated that she went for it and failed - not only is that a useless roleclaim, but it's completely un-confirmable, which makes me think he might be lying. Well, you can confirm with a Role Check but that requires the Role Cop to claim, which obviously is not a good idea. His pointing out that going CC is retarded makes that just a little bit more suspicious, trying to cover his tracks and whatnot. He's also been (in general) against most of what the town has been saying, and without much justification, which is scummy to me. Definitely agree with the CV at night deal. I have a question though (read Qatol's post), who are we lynching? He/Rad I think suggested Day Vig'ing sidesprang and then lynching someone else? And what do we do in the case that no one picked Day Vig? Back to reading that essay -_- We are lynching sidesprang unless a day vigi steps up. And sorry! Like I said, I was sick. I really wish I had been around to post that in pieces as they were relevant. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 05 2010 07:02 DarthThienAn wrote: @giving people vests, it makes mafia immune to serial killer kills as well... which is a luck-based thing, but IT STILL PROTECTS THEM at night. So I think we need something more creative that just bulletproof vests =[. The alternative is doing it anyway and assuming our information will get better if we delay the game. But we don't really want to save mafia - I can see this still being done, but there's gotta be something better, any ideas? >_> Also, do we want to take a closer look at the inactive people? ie. Amnesia, who basically hasn't posted ANYTHING here. Read: mafia scum trying to hide and stay out of the spotlight, or: busy with life, and still useless -__-. Other players have been posting from time to time, although some of them post worthless these (maybe that includes me, from other's perspectives...) I think there should be a way to work with that CV+medic dealio, but I'm gonna go back to the drawing board on that. I'd rather rely on the town's lynches than a serial killer who is not working for the town for killing mafia. Thanks for confirming yourself as likely serial killer though. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 05 2010 07:19 Radfield wrote: A quick off topic post: At what point does Amnesia get modkilled?? How long can one go without posting? He's been active on other parts of the site, but has either given up on the game or is hardcore lurking. Also, an invention that keeps evil-doers away would be good to give out. Like the night-light that Opz suggested. It doesn't protect against those who are pure at heart etc. Better than armor in that it stops serial killer hits, and doesn't stop town aligned hits. I'm cool with that if Ace allows it. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [Posts in other threads] + On May 05 2010 06:59 johnnyspazz wrote: i got the town-check pm i did not get the "you were protected" pm On May 05 2010 07:04 johnnyspazz wrote: i like hobbes's vote without any reason scummy imo He posted in Nano-MAFIA 1 and 2 a little over an hour ago, but hasn't posted in this thread at all. This isn't exactly out of character for him this game either. When I first proposed my numbers plan, I took note of the players who were posting elsewhere in the forum but not here (figuring that the mafia would want to talk things out before making a move). He was one of them. + Show Spoiler [Numbers Plan] + On May 01 2010 14:09 Qatol wrote: Okay, fun time. I've been doing some thinking about the game setup and have some thoughts for the town going forward: The first major item of note is this: + Show Spoiler [Vanilla Scum] + You are Vanilla Scum! The ability to kill 1 player per night belongs to you. One of you must PM me a kill for the night even though all 4 of you participate in the kill. Remember you can coordinate your # picks during the draft phase. The Mafia team this round consists of: Jack, Jill, this bottle and my ecstasy pills! You win when you outnumber the town, or there is no way for them to stop you from outnumbering them. This tells us 2 things: 1. The mafia only have 1 KP in a game with 19 players. They also only have 4 members. Why is this important? With all the rolecheck abilities out there, the mafia are unlikely to stand much of a chance unless they get some very powerful roles. 2. The mafia team knew who each other were during the draft phase and were allowed to communicate with each other during said phase. Assuming they talked to each other at all, they did not overlap with each other. These 2 points lead us to a pretty simple conclusion: The mafia made sure they have very low numbers and their numbers were probably consecutive in order to guarantee that they would wind up with powerful role choices. I wouldn't be surprised if they did something like: [3] [1] [4] [1] [5] [1] [6] [1] in order to avoid overlapping with the town as much as possible while still keeping near the top. I think it is unlikely that they bid a [1] [1] or even a [2] [1] just because they were worried the town would also bid those numbers. Bill Murray already claimed he bid [1] [1]. I wouldn't be surprised if this was actually the case. I think L probably bid [2] [1] hoping that people would stack on 1. The people I'm looking at right now are these people in particular: 3. Foolishness 4. Korynne 5. Falcynn I strongly believe that 1 or 2 of them are mafia. They are also likely to go for the roles the mafia will rely upon for the game. Remember that aside from the Copy Cat (which would be a risky role for the mafia to take), if the mafia want a role that gives them additional KP, they are likely to take it with these picks. I'm specifically thinking that the mafia here will be targeting Jack of All Trades, Day Vigilante, and Vengeful Player. Keep these 3 players in mind for later. I also propose that people announce something: whether or not you moved down and what you bid. Why would you do that and why would it matter? Because it gives us an idea of what range people bid in. Remember, we want to piece together who bid what because the mafia did not stack numbers on top of each other. I realize that the mafia can lie about this, but it really doesn't matter. If they lie about their bidding numbers, then the town has an opportunity to catch them in a lie based on who else bid that number. If someone moved down, they are placed in a group with the people around them. When you find a mafia in that group, it increases the level of trust with the people around you. With this in mind, I would like to announce that I moved down. I bid [6] [1] thinking that the mafia might try for consecutive numbers starting between 2 and 4. That would mean that they would end between 6 and 8. I'm almost positive I overlapped with one of the mafia. This means that we should also be looking very hard at: 10. sidesprang 12. JeeJee I confirmed with Ace that this situation: A - [3] [1] B - [3] [1] C - [5] [1] D - [5] [2] will result in: A and B are ordered randomly, C, D. The second tie does not move you down a second time. This means that anyone who moved down yet is still above me bid at least a 6. Everyone below me moved down AND bid at most a 6. If you bid between 3 and 5 and moved down, it is especially important that you speak up. Why am I coming forward with this information right now and not after roles are selected? Because I want the town to deny the mafia the most powerful roles or at the very least control their use. We can't stop the mafia from taking roles to increase their KP, but we can still control who gets what role and try to keep the mafia away from the 3 most important ones: Inventor, Compulsive Vigilante, and Role Blocker. Why are these roles especially important? The first 2 provide the mafia with kill power EVERY NIGHT. The third one allows the mafia flexibility to get around this plan. Therefore, I want Bill Murray to take Inventor and L's replacement to take Compulsive Vigilante. Foolishness will take Roleblocker. Bill Murray, you will be making meth bombs (if Ace allows it) or at least bulletproof vests for people every night. The day post will confirm that you followed these directions. This way you cannot give the mafia additional kill power. L's replacement, the town will be directing your shots. We will vote during the day on your hit. Foolishness, you will not be roleblocking anyone. If anyone claims to be roleblocked, we will immediately lynch you. Roleblocks are much stronger for the mafia than they are for the town. I would just as soon nobody get them. tl;dr: Look hard at these 5: 3. Foolishness 4. Korynne 5. Falcynn 10. sidesprang 12. JeeJee Claim your numbers. Revealing this information does not hurt the town but does hurt the mafia. Bill Murray, L's replacement, Foolishness: you have additional instructions. Read them. + Show Spoiler [His posts] + From Nano-MAFIA 1: On May 01 2010 15:27 johnnyspazz wrote: ##signup## sup Nano-MAFIA 2: On May 01 2010 15:27 johnnyspazz wrote: ##signup## On May 02 2010 01:29 johnnyspazz wrote: I picked [8][4]. Good call darth Because of this, and because he wasn't contributing, I pushed for him to get lynched. Notice that no bandwagon formed at all. I believe this is because the mafia didn't want to see him lynched. They only joined the voting for him after they were sure it wouldn't pass. I even called him out on his lack of contribution: + Show Spoiler + On May 02 2010 17:32 Qatol wrote: + Show Spoiler [Bid list] + 1. Bill Murray - [17] [4] 2. Foolishness - [1] [1] 3. Korynne - [1] [5] 4. Falcynn [1] [5-20] or [4] [1] - hasn't claimed 5. [NyC]HoBbes - [4] [1] 6. ~Opz~ - [4] [14] 7. d3_crescentia - [4] [14] 8. Caller - [6] [1] 9. sidesprang - [6] [1] 10. Qatol - [6] [1] 11. JeeJee - [6] [1] 12. DarthThienAn - [8] [1] 13. johnnyspazz - [8] [4] 14. Amnesia [8] [4-20] or [10] [1] - hasn't claimed 15. Radfield - [10] [1] 16. Scamp - [10] [11] 17. Zona - [12] [1] 18. citi.zen - [12] [3] This gives us a few potential groups: + Show Spoiler [Group 1] + Bill Murray + Show Spoiler [Group 2] + Foolishness Korynne Falcynn + Show Spoiler [Group 3] + Falcynn Hobbes Opz d3_crescentia + Show Spoiler [Group 4] + Caller sidesprang Qatol JeeJee + Show Spoiler [Group 5] + DarthThienAn johnnyspazz Amnesia + Show Spoiler [Group 6] + Amnesia Radfield Scamp + Show Spoiler [Group 7] + Zona citi.zen So we have 4 mafia and 7 potential groups. There is likely only 1 mafia in each group unless they lied about their numbers. Either way, these groups are a starting point. For the first lynch, I propose that we do not select anyone in groups 1-3. The mafia likely have control of the copy cat role, and those groups are where we will likely find the most powerful roles. Of those, I have picked out 5 players who have not contributed from that list: Caller - claimed only his role and that nobody told him about role selection sidesprang - claimed his number and some sort of reasoning, but nothing else JeeJee - complained about the tiebreaks and pointed out that the town likes even numbers johnnyspazz - gave his numbers Amnesia - hasn't contributed at all + we don't have his numbers These are my thoughts on each of the 5: Caller - He likes to troll and be generally useless early in games. I don't have a strong read on his role yet. However, if he's innocent, it is also possible that he doesn't have a role because he forgot to send in a role selection PM. I don't want to take that chance quite yet. sidesprang - Relatively new player. I know he's played in a few games, but I don't know much about his posting habits. I'm going to have to go back and read his previous games to get a feel for his behavior, but I feel like he should be more active than this. JeeJee - He can be pretty iffy with his activity as well. He has had some pretty inactive games in the past, but I was very impressed with his play in WaW mafia. He needs to start talking more. johnnyspazz - Another relatively new player. However, he told me that he has been receiving coaching from Incognito. If this is the case, I find it hard to believe that he would be contributing this little when innocent. Major red flags here. Amnesia - I know nothing about him. Is this his first game? He sure doesn't seem to have his bearings about him, posting but not giving us his numbers. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt right now, but he needs to get up to speed and start contributing. Obviously, I'm going to have to go back and do a little more research when it isn't 4am, but for right now, I think johnnyspazz is our best lynch target. ## vote: johnnyspazz I may change this later, but we need to be discussing suspects. Let's get talking, guys and Korynne! As for what to do about Korynne's role discrepancy, I don't think there is much we CAN do about it at least until night time. But we need to think about using our alignment checks on the early part of the list. Let's just focus on making sure the town contributes and the mafia are forced to talk for right now. His response: [spoiler[ On May 02 2010 18:20 johnnyspazz wrote: [/spoiler]wow ok so i skipped the part where i was supposed to pm a role to ace, gg me as for voting for me, i guess that would be a great start since you wouldn't be losing anyone important. as for incognito "coaching" me, all he did was refer me to good players such as yourself qatol to ask for advice. last game i tried to be super active and that only turned the town against me. let me guess, people are going to accuse me for being a lurker and responding when a vote is casted on me. well, there's nothing i can really do if i was busy all day and when i get the chance to read the thread, there's a vote on me by the end. coincidences happen And then he goes right back to lurking/ not contributing. So johnnyspazz: why so quiet? **NOTE: this is not to indicate that I am pushing lynching anyone other than sidesprang. We need to get a lynch through and that one is the most likely to get through. However, johnnyspazz should be HEAVILY considered if we day vigi sidesprang or with the compulsive vigi hit. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 05 2010 08:27 Foolishness wrote: Thanks for saving me the trouble of having to post something like this...although I kinda already did in an indirect stance. At the very least, if someone can give me a good reason why I should be upfront about my role I'll gladly say something. But I don't see any reason. I think people are REALLY overlooking the fact that almost anybody could be lying about what role they have. Has anyone ever thought that Qatol lied about taking the copycat and is in fact some other role? Personally I don't think it's true, but all options must be considered. Yay another person trying to "subtly" poke holes in my credibility. Having fun over there with your buddy ~OpZ~? I just find it so hard to believe that so many people near the top of the draft did not get a role. It seems so unbelievable, especially when you know a few roles are going to get grabbed by the top few players (it was even discussed in Qatol's plan in the thread). When you could easily snag any other role why go for one of those? Opz says he picked his role without reading the thread. That's garbage in my opinion. sidesprang still looks fishy, but when he says someone is definitely lying, I can't help but feel for him. Agreed. I feel much better about johnnyspazz, but after the day 1 voting fiasco, I don't trust the town to get their act together in time on anyone except sidesprang. I also think there is a decent chance that he is mafia. At the very least, he hasn't been helpful at all. I'm willing to gamble on this one. Again, I'm not saying anything about my role unless someone can provide good reason. As I believe there are huge incentives to lie, I think that myself claiming could only distract from what needs to be done. At the same time, it seems that everyone is blindly believing what everyone says about their role, and I think you all should consider things from my perspective first. What if I had listened to Qatol and took the roleblocker, do you really think I'm going to come out about it now? That'd be a shit storm. If I waited a day or two, then my position could become more believable depending on who dies and who we find is mafia. Except you have something to contribute. If you took anything other than CompVig, you should have already roleclaimed because then we have a confirmed mafia in the first 3 players. I approve this message, however given the inactivity of voting yesterday (I think more people did NOT vote than actually voted...) I don't recommend this. Obviously if something big comes up and it's really clear that we need to change who the CompVig hits, then sure. Otherwise we should pick during the day. Fine. I nominate johnnyspazz. We can worry about the higher people on the list later. And speaking of which, that needs to be decided upon as well as the lynch today. I don't see how this confirms anything. Have we not considered BM is lying about being inventor? Does this idea not seem so far fetched? Remember this is BM we're dealing it. Imagine this scenario: instead of finding out the inventor made a cell phone, we find out the inventor made a life-vest or something. Of course we're going to be like, ...wtf at first, but then we see BM makes a post right under of "sorry guys, I realized that my plan to form a town circle wasn't going to work, so I went and did this instead, since it was discussed in thread". I'm pretty sure the general reaction to everyone would be "ughh....Bill Murray..." and that'd be the end of it. Yet if anyone else tried that I'm sure they'd be under heavy pressure right now, and they'd be first candidate for lynch. Ya'll think BM is really this stupid? I've played enough games with the guy to know he's not. Really? You think Bill would lie about taking the inventor role? Here's the thing: If he's innocent, it doesn't help the town for him to lie about his role. It just makes us lynch people around him whether or not we actually have solid reads on them. I would hope that he is smart enough to see that. This kinda seems contradictory with what you said above, but yes. I wrote my spiel above before I saw this. That's great and all except we're trying to lynch mafia, not townspeople. Ace said he will PM the person if they got roleblocked, irregardless if they have a role or not. I don't think revealing if you got roleblocked means anything unless you're obviously town, which is nobody at this point. Actually, that is wrong. Either you are town and legitimately got roleblocked (telling us there is a mafia roleblocker out there) or you are mafia and did not get roleblocked (telling us that there is no mafia roleblocker out there). I'd like to be able to figure out which of these cases is the truth. You also said roleblocker can choose to not roleblock someone. Considering you wanted me to pick the roleblocker and do exactly that for the entire game, maybe that's what happened during the night. In which case nobody except the mafia will claim to be roleblocked and I'm happy. We should be talking about this right now. As far as I can see it, sidesprang is dead unless he posts again. Until that time let's figure out who else to kill. If you think sidesprang's alignment should influence who we kill at night, say so and give people to kill in each situation. If Amnesia is not going to get modkilled, I vote him. While he's a good candidate to lynch, I feel like using the CompVig to kill inactives is safer (more so because we can all agree on it. I don't want to be in a scenario where the town is 50/50 on deciding who the CompVig is to hit because that more or less leaves it up to the CompVig to decide, which is bad in the event the CompVig is mafia). I think Amnesia is a useless townie. He's too prominent to be mafia. I wouldn't be surprised if the mafia want to use him as a scapegoat. johnnyspazz > Amnesia If sidesprang doesn't post more than we should definitely lynch him. His defense means nothing if he doesn't follow it up. Personally, I think if there's a dayVigi they should wait until later on to use their kill. And I think we need to clear the DayVigi from our suspect list. That would be easier if they took their shot. Nope. But even if he gave some wavy explanation, you'd totally believe him like everyone else right? We can't do anything BUT trust that it did what it was supposed to do at this point. But he really needs to be giving something else out: tracking kits, vet lives, dt kits. I would say meth bombs except I'm still not sure that Cell Phone isn't a detonator. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 05 2010 08:55 ~OpZ~ wrote: Why have you been talking about comp vig in the third person...If korynne picked at comp vig and got plain townie...either you or bill picked it. Johnnyspazz does seem suspicious...but not everyone comments on every plan... Hell, ask citizen, I pm'd him either before/after the game started (not sure at the time, and didn't mean to but I got dupe'd). I sent him 4, BEFORE I even understood we had to pick two numbers. Sorry I've been busy for a lil while, but damn. Didn't have time to read all the plans before the game began, and I sent Ace both numbers (citizen told me I needed two numbers actually...-________-) Dunno...Sorry for the fuck up, but bleh....Goes as far as I can to clarify I didn't read the thread to hard then or the OP...I mixed up who was assisting the host. I can even direct you to the post that dupe'd me. -__-... Really? Then why was his first post afterwards his numbers? But then you aren't exactly clean to me either. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the mafia had 4 of these 5: you, johnnyspazz, foolishness, jeejee, sidesprang | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 05 2010 09:28 ~OpZ~ wrote: Wanna make a wager? First let me show how you were wrong... Post that duped me (he has since edited it) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=120729¤tpage=4#75 Very next post by citizen. (Not his numbers) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=120729¤tpage=5#85 Now, how about when I die, you agree die next? Or lets kill sidesprang, and day vigi foolishness. You sure seem to be screaming scum to me right now, Qatol. As I've said, you're all over the map and need to calm down. I know everyone else see's it. I don't need six pages worth of posts and contradictions to show it. -___- I can quote some of yours, and I highly doubt you'll be an idiot misguided townie with your attack on me. Just reread some of your own statements. I've defended you, not attacked you. While I didn't notice Johnnyspazz was posting other places, and I'm happier killing foolishness or korynne because CLEARLY one of them is lying about CV. I picked it too, and foolishness calls me stupid for picking it. I picked it because...well...Vig really isn't that insanely powerful. Dt's are more important in my opinion. I just felt I'd be better sitting around and slaughtering individuals. I wanted to power to murder. I wanted to feel like the mafia! But sadly...I fucked myself and should of picked Jack. Or Meth. I spoke about my role because if everyone feels like USING the comp vig, then we might as well know who he is right? I never said anything about you and your role selection. I'm fully aware citi.zen made that post. I was talking about johnnyspazz? On May 02 2010 01:29 johnnyspazz wrote: I picked [8][4]. Good call darth It was his first post after the game started. And we can play your little game of chicken if you really want, but I'm definitely innocent. Or do you not remember the plans where I was likely checked out by the role cop and/or tracker? Do you really think I would be contributing the way I have if I were mafia? Anyways, I will try to be more focused in my accusations. Sound good? Lynch sidesprang, compvig johnnyspazz I'll leave it at those two. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 05 2010 10:08 Korynne wrote: Or actually, correction, stop trying to lynch me because you think I am mafia. It is perfectly legit to lynch me to confirm what I say about Bill/Foolishness. No, it isn't. If you are really legit, we have better ways to find out about Bill/Foolishness. If we lynch you, it should be because we think you are mafia. No other reason. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 05 2010 10:39 Foolishness wrote: Have you not read anything Qatol or I have said about NOT claiming as claiming only helps the mafia? I said in my post, I will claim if it is necessary and bring impertinent information to the town. Right now me claiming does no good, so I'm not going to. You can be upset that you didn't get your role (if you're even telling the truth here), but that doesn't mean you have to force me to claim and help the mafia (but who am I kidding, you already did that yesterday, great job there btw). Why do you care so much about this fact? Why are you putting so much emphasis on YOUR credibility? Nobody other than yourself knows that you are innocent (unless someone checked you or something), and yet you expect us to just blindly believe everything you say? You're sounding more and more like BM as the game goes on. You're honestly expecting everyone in the town to just believe everything you say. Saying this is what is causing me to doubt your credibility, not anything else you say. Furthermore, my paragraph in which I said those things had NOTHING to do with your credibility. It was about people lying in general, and I just picked you as an example. There are huge benefits in this game to lying about what role you got or what numbers you picked, no matter what side you are on (I can clarify this point if need be). I'm trying to raise this point up because people are just believing anyone is saying. At this stage in the game, some things are not adding up right with what everyone is saying. Somebody has to be lying, somebody who's talking a lot probably. There are things left unsaid that need to be answered (what did BM's invention actually do?). Opz wants to kill me and you're calling us buddies? o.O Maybe I want credibility because I'm sick and tired of being ignored? (notice how early I tried to focus on a lynch on day 1 yet we still managed to have a no lynch? People didn't even really argue about it? They just focused on the roles and didn't even worry about the lynch.) (additionally, notice that nobody other than opz has even mentioned that analysis of johnnyspazz - how is the guy this slippery when he isn't even posting?) Anyways, I'm done with this. Just don't stop reading my posts. If you disagree with the logic in them, point it out like Zona did earlier. Dismissing them out of hand or saying that I am expecting you to just follow them does not help anyone. If you aren't persuaded, tell me why. Please clarify your point about why you would want to lie about your numbers if you're innocent. Which is what I'm skeptical about when I mention this. In any other mafia game, it's not very well in a townspersons' interest to lie about their role. In this game it is very well in their interest. You claimed you picked copycat and didn't get the role. What I think is equally as likely (I'm not accusing you) is that you picked some other role instead. Let's assume for a moment that you are town. Given how much you emphasized in the thread you were taking copycat, it goes without saying that probably nobody below you picked it (and thus can't counter confirm your choice). Then after the picks were done you said in the thread, "hey guys I didn't get my role...wtf" (I'm paraphrasing obviously). Now the mafia think you're a green townie and won't bother hitting you. If you picked a good town role (a cop, medic, tracker, or something) you're in a great position to just do your thing for the next few days. What I'm trying to say is, even if I come out with information that says "hey guys...either BM or Korynne is lying", that doesn't necessarily mean one of us is mafia. I'll reserve my judgment on this until I see the first CompVig hit. But if they aren't following the town, you NEED to speak up. BM said before the picks went out that he didn't even want the inventor role. I think it's possible that nobody on the list picked inventor. Or if you're lower on the list, you picked inventor and got it, would you really come out and say so? Maybe, but if I was low on the list, and was actually the inventor, I'd be very very very scared about claiming. Hell I had second pick on the draft and I'm scared to claim as it is. And you're 'if' statement there says "If he's innocent,...". What if he's not? I'm just trying to account for all possibilities here, because it seems to me nobody else is. And I think that it is impossible that nobody picked the inventor because we saw a cell phone made. After Bill said that he was trying to make a town circle and something about being able to PM on day 4. After Bill was talking about making a town circle. It sure seems to me like he has the role or is working with the person that has it. And yes, if I were the one with the inventor role, I would roleclaim. Why? because it means we have found someone actively working against the town (Bill). I'm kinda confused by this. What I originally meant was that claiming you got roleblocked says nothing of whether you have a special role or not. You mention that either a town or mafia member could claim to get roleblocked, and what I was saying is that if someone claims to get roleblocked, it doesn't reveal much information. This would only help later in the game if they died or if someone had checked them or something. All I want to know is whether we have a roleblocker out there working against us. Personally, I'd like to know what the mafia can do. Maybe it won't matter, maybe we wind up in a situation where we should have a DT roleclaim while we drop our medic on them. I'd like to know if that is an option. No it's not, we don't have time to waste like that. Lynching you to confirm what one of BM/me is says nothing about who's mafia (other than you cause you're dead and we find out). Also, that kinda talk is mafia like (the whole "fine if you don't believe me, just go ahead and kill me, then you'll see). Agreed on this point. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 05 2010 11:33 johnnyspazz wrote: ##Vote Sidesprang## after reading through everything, i agree that sidesprang would be a good lynch target why aren't people using the compvig vote idea that was brought up earlier in the game? Okay so you read through everything. You agree that the logic on sidesprang is a good target. Why are you still not saying anything? No impressions? No analysis? You point out that we aren't using the compvig vote idea, but then you don't even suggest a target? This sort of posting behavior is exactly why I am calling you out. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 05 2010 11:55 Foolishness wrote: Yeah, after thinking about it, I don't think there's any reason to lie about your numbers, especially now that the draft's far over and we kinda have an idea of who's what. I can be sympathetic of you being tired of being ignored. However first day you were here early, then you just disappeared for a long while, which didn't help your cause (yeah I know you were sick, but if you hadn't been and had been around during this time we'd be in a much different position about you methinks). And contrary, I haven't dismissed any of your posts, more of I'm questioning your attitude. I'm not persuaded because it seems to me you're taking up a BM attitude here: "guys, it's obvious I'm greener than grass, you should listen to me". Frankly, it's not obvious to us (although your constant activity right now helps). That's why I kept mentioning of thinking things from everyone's perspective, and to think of all possibilities, however ridiculous. As for Jspazzz, I will agree on your point that he is filler-posting and has yet to make a contribution of his own. Looking through past games quickly, I'd say he's about as active as during BM's game (a little less maybe) and about as active as during flamewheel's game. Both times he was green. I'll need to look through more games for a better consensus on that. If nobody has any better idea on who the CompVig should kill then we should go with that, especially if Amnesia gets modkilled. Right, my bad on that, there must be an inventor. However, if BM didn't take inventor and it fell into the mafia hands, they might have incentive to keep quiet about it. And I still say BM could have picked a cop with a "i'm going to win this game for the town when i come out with all this information day 3!!!!" attitude. Fair enough. The reason I'm taking this attitude is because I want people to think for themselves and realize that what I'm saying makes logical sense. The only true leap of faith I've asked of anyone so far was that I tried to take and didn't get copycat. I realize that this one is a leap of faith which I'm hoping my behavior will speak for. Other than that, I am hoping that my posts make sense from a logical point of view. Have I said anything else which you think requires a leap of faith? It means that the logic hasn't come through entirely, and that should be rectified. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 05 2010 12:43 Zona wrote: Alright - I'm here and back to vote. Looks like no better target appeared, so sidesprang it is. Counted things up quickly though and I think sidesprang is already at majority of 9 votes, from: radfield falcynn citi.zen hobbes korynne scamp foolishness johnnyspazz opz but just in case I've miscounted I'll throw mine down - probably just symbolic though. ##Vote: sidesprang We should all join the compvig vote now, though, so there's no ambiguity. From my quick read of the new posts it seems johnnyspazz is the leading candidate? I voted for him too, it was just mixed into my super long post, so you might have missed it. I'll post it again just to be sure. [b]##Vote: sidesprang | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 05 2010 18:58 Bill Murray wrote: im the inventor radfield how can you even doubt that medics protect me That depends. Are you going to cooperate with the town now and make one of the devices we have suggested? Or are you going to continue to make cell phones? | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [Bid list] + 1. Bill Murray - [17] [4] 2. Foolishness - [1] [1] 3. Korynne - [1] [5] 4. Falcynn [1] [5-20] or [4] [1] - hasn't claimed 5. [NyC]HoBbes - [4] [1] 6. ~OpZ~ - [4] [14] 7. 8. 9. 10. Qatol - [6] [1] 11. JeeJee - [6] [1] 12. DarthThienAn - [8] [1] 13. johnnyspazz - [8] [4] 14. 15. Radfield - [10] [1] 16. Scamp - [10] [11] 17. Zona - [12] [1] 18. citi.zen - [12] [3] Falcynn SERIOUSLY needs to come forward with his numbers. Groups: + Show Spoiler [Group 1] + Bill Murray + Show Spoiler [Group 2] + Foolishness Korynne Falcynn + Show Spoiler [Group 3] + Falcynn Hobbes ~OpZ~ + Show Spoiler [Group 4] + Qatol JeeJee + Show Spoiler [Group 5] + DarthThienAn johnnyspazz + Show Spoiler [Group 6] + Radfield Scamp + Show Spoiler [Group 7] + Zona citi.zen Now this should presumably clear group #4. However, I'm still not entirely sure that JeeJee belongs IN group #4. Notice that he claimed his numbers after both DarthThienAn and I claimed ours. He could have gotten into the same spot in the drafting order with the numbers [8][1]. This is further complicated by johnnyspazz's presence in group 5. On the one hand, he didn't come forward with his numbers until after both Radfield and DarthThienAn came forward with theirs. On the other, it would be a horrible risk for him to lie about his numbers and then have Amnesia come foward with a contradicting set. I think it is unlikely that he lied about his numbers. So there you have it. Logically, only one of johnnyspazz or JeeJee can be the mafia from group 5 (and I think it is one of them because I still think that Darth is the SK). Anyone want to make a case for hitting one of them over the other? We HAVE to CompVig one of them tonight. Also, Zona, I seem to have broken the archive thread by accidentally typing a [ instead of a ] earlier. Could you fix it lest I make that thread ridiculously long? | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 02:55 Falcynn wrote: My draft numbers? [1][7] I didn't read the thread before I put in my numbers, and I was preparing for the filmrace so I never bothered checking if the town was organizing someway of having people pick numbers. Sorry if my numbers turned out to be anti-town. It isn't that. It's just that having a complete list helps the town significantly. Short version is that having the numbers lets us group players. We think it is unlikely that the mafia deliberately picked the same numbers. Therefore, if you find a mafia in a group of people who picked a certain number, you won't find another one there and can check off the rest of the group as mostly-confirmed town/SK. I really wish we had gotten Amnesia's numbers before he was modkilled. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 05 2010 23:14 citi.zen wrote: Sidersprang wasn't lynched because he was terribly suspect, but because he didn't really reply + we thought we might get more info on other people from lynching him. We got lucky with our lynch, which is great, but remember the mafia KP is the same whatever happens. For tonight, I still like alignment kits as our invention - the chance of hitting a red by shooting into the crowd are now even lower. Alternatively - what do we think of making some meth-bomb-like item which would not kill all visitors, only the shooter? If enough townies have those the reds eventually kill themselves. I need to review people's posts relative to Sidersprang. I can't believe I missed this earlier. No bombs please. I don't trust that day 1 cell phone not to be a detonator. Please let's just stick with something that prevents hits. We are losing town members too fast. I like the security camera/trip wire idea suggested earlier if ace allows it (prevents the hit and shows you your attacker). Otherwise, just something that turns a player into a veteran would be quite useful. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 03:06 JeeJee wrote: you are correct, i probably know hobbes' role now, of course that's still pending whether others have lied but the way the events have unfolded so far, the claims seem legit. i think i probably understand hobbes' strategy now and it kind of makes sense.. we shall see. atm i am leaning towards hobbes being townie so that's where we stand on that issue. what's the plan with inventions this night? i'm still leaning towards alignment kits. maybe you can get creative and get a gun with special bullets .. if you hit a mafia, they die, if you hit a townie, nothing happens. its like an alignment kit with bullets, whooo =) Absolutely not. The mafia want to speed this game up. It's the only way they win. We already have some good suspects right now. We do NOT need alignment kits. And I'm not sure the person with the gun won't die immediately. Please stick to something that keeps players alive. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 03:34 JeeJee wrote: ^ you realize inventions just last one night right? so if bill guesses wrong (which is quite likely, ask any doc) no info is gained, no townie is saved. with an alignment kit we have persistent information. Where did you get that? I don't see any indication that inventions last one night. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
Okay wow. That was apparently buried in the thread somewhere? I'm still unsure how that would interact with a vet ability. One DT check =/= one night of vet armor (because the player can use the DT check any night). However, if you are right about that, then I'll agree with you that we should be looking for an alignment check kit or possibly a tracking kit. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 04:08 citi.zen wrote: I love the invention suggestion. How can this harm the town? Swift justice + lasting info. Call it... the silver bullet gun. DT kit v. 2.0. Easy. Do you trust Bill not to make a regular gun but have the same name? How about he makes another one after that? And then the mafia all fire their guns the same night. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 04:21 DarthThienAn wrote: Is there a way we can confirm Bill as town? Or anyone for that matter? I'm inclined to think Radfield for one is town, as he led us to sidesprang, who turned out to be mafia. Call it luck if you want, but no way that mafia would kill each other with only 4 in the game. If you believe my list theory, then I am somewhat confirmed (I was in a group with sidesprang). However, because it was my theory, I won't go there. Radfield is the other player I would agree is almost certainly town. He has had very good logic this entire game and the sidesprang catch was very good. I guess I'm okay with Radfield getting a gun with a silver bullet. But I don't trust anyone else with it, and I'm worried that he may not survive the night. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 04:37 Bill Murray wrote: quit filling people's heads with absolute SHIT. seriously. you're saying there's NO CHANCE you and jeejee did that on purpose for a ploy to look innocent? you're saying there's NO CHANCE one of you isn't the serial killer? give me a damn break Really? What about my claim is shit exactly? I have already said that I am not going to clear myself with my own theory. I have already said that JeeJee very well could have lied about his numbers because he claimed them after I claimed mine. I have said that this list only clears out mafia, not the Serial Killer. Hell, even in that statement I said "presumably." For god's sake, at least give me civility if you won't give me the benefit of the doubt AFTER we JUST caught the mafia with the copycat role. What exactly is your problem? And tell us, what are you inventing? | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 04:47 citi.zen wrote: This is your strangest comment yet Qatol. If you do not trust Bill this entire discussion is worthless. It makes no difference if you ask him to make invention X or Y - if he works for the mafia he will make what he wants or change the properties of the invention how he wants. I don't get it. Actually, it makes perfect sense. The thing is, if Bill is working for the mafia, he will want to give out as many inventions as he possibly can before we catch him. To do that, he has to give out inventions which seem to be helping the town when they will actually help the mafia in the long run. If we are asking him to give out guns, what is to stop him from giving out his "guns" to mafia members and either claim that they went to people who just died or just say they went to the mafia members? Then the mafia can just go on a shooting spree in a few nights and close out the game. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 04:49 Bill Murray wrote: and by "claim" i meant "this clears list 4" because it really doesn't clear anything. if you would have said "this makes it much less likely that jeejee and i are mafia, but we could still be a serial killer so you cant trust anyone if you are town-aligned" I would completely agree. I am also not trying to be an asshole, it comes naturally, and I am grumpy in the morning Okay, I will agree with that statement. I thought "presumably" covered it. Sorry, I apparently wasn't clear. This list pulls some suspicion off myself and JeeJee as far as being mafia, but does nothing towards us being Serial Killer. Good? On May 06 2010 04:51 Bill Murray wrote: furthermore, i DO feel like your list is useful. i DO feel like you are pro-town, but i DO want to win so i'm trying to take into account every possible scenario. I am considering giving foolishness a laptop that will enable him to do an alignment check Please don't call it a laptop. Please call it an alignment check kit. You need to be more transparent with what your inventions do. Remember, our only descriptions of your inventions come from the names themselves. A laptop just has WAY too many potential uses other than alignment checks. Also, why foolishness? We don't know if we trust him at all until he makes a night kill. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 04:55 Bill Murray wrote: or i could make a gun that backfires when someone tries to shoot it, and give it to a townie I thought the person you give it to gets the same description you gave to Ace? In that case, the townie would never fire it and would just call you out. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 05:42 JeeJee wrote: this doesn't make sense if he claims the gun went to a mafia and thats why it hasn't been used, then he should call out said mafia and we lynch him, lol Okay so what if he claims it went to someone who died but actually gives it to a mafia member? Nobody can dispute that. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 05:39 citi.zen wrote: This is silly - ANYTHING can be used to kill someone - the key is in the description, not the name. Us giving Bill ideas does not help or stop him from changing the attributes we cannot observe. Am I the only one who does not get this or is this plainly obvious? Ace has said that the invention's use has to be related to its name. I would find it unlikely that he would allow an "alignment check kit" allow that player to kill others. There just is no connection. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 05:49 JeeJee wrote: ebwop: this is why i mean make the name as obvious as humanly possible. i.e. name it a DT_Alignment_Check_Kit etc. no ambiguity. On May 06 2010 05:52 Bill Murray wrote: well i was going to make it double-serve as an alignment checking kit and something that would blow foolishness up if he targeted me tonight Then call it a DT_Alignment_Check_Kit_That_Blows_Up_If_The_User_Attacks_Bill_Murray Good? Your invention just needs a more transparent name. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 05:52 Bill Murray wrote: well i was going to make it double-serve as an alignment checking kit and something that would blow foolishness up if he targeted me tonight Wait, question: If you were planning on making your invention work like this, why were you calling for the medic to protect you? You have already provided a huge disincentive for targeting you. Shouldn't the medic try to block a hit on someone else? | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 06:35 Scamp wrote: Wow that would be so cool if we still had multiple medics in this game right now. Especially considering 40 percent of all deaths in this game are medic-related. Best case scenerio is we have one medic, someone is bulletproof, someone is a veteran, and they're all town. We could also have a jack with a medic protection available. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 06:24 DarthThienAn wrote: It makes sense for the medic to protect him - mafia still have a hit. But not multiple medics - the only reason why he would need more than one is if he's worried that, if Foolishness if mafia, they'll try to do a trade? Which doesn't sound unreasonable since the Inventor is such a powerful role. But I kinda feel like this would be a bad trade for us - considering the number of vanilla claims that have gone through, I feel like the town is short on roles, so having the Inventor is really important imo. And I want to leave it open to the medic's discretion and make the mafia at least consider hitting Bill Murray. Let me lay down the cases: 1. Bill Murray is mafia, Foolishness is any role - medic protection is a waste, we want Bill Murray dead 2. Bill Murray is SK, Foolishness is anly role - medic protection is a waste, Bill Murray won't die to anything thrown at him 3. Bill Murray is innocent a. Foolishness is mafia - it is unlikely the mafia will hit Bill because they don't want to lose another member + their CompVig. SK might take a shot at him if he likes his chances about the medic protection. Medic protection might be useful. b. Foolishness is SK - then Foolishness definitely won't take a shot. Mafia might. Medic protection might be useful. c. Foolishness is innocent - Mafia or SK might both take shots or just one of them. Medic might be useful. I'm just saying I'd like the medic to use their discretion. Bill Murray should definitely be on the short list of players the medic should be thinking about, but he shouldn't 100% be the pick. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 07:20 Bill Murray wrote: 1 medic takes 1 hit off me foolishness + mafia = 2 hits foolishness not hitting me because hes mafia and doesnt want to die + mafia hitting me = 1 hit therefore, OUR MEDIC SHOULD PROTECT ME IF HES TOWN ALIGNED. I believe I covered this scenario. If foolishness is mafia, it doesn't matter which hit is used on you, he would still die. On May 06 2010 07:23 Bill Murray wrote: qatol you saying the medic shouldnt protect the inventor is making you look more and more scummy Really? Is that what I said? I believe I said the medic should CONSIDER protecting someone other than you because it increases the chances of getting a protection. I believe I also said that you should be a high priority, but not an ironclad 100% protection target. I just want the mafia to think twice about hitting someone like maybe Foolishness (if innocent) or Radfield AS WELL AS you. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 07:25 johnnyspazz wrote: my bad, foolishness fits under the category of compvig and mafia member in this case. now i understand. also yes medics should definitely protect BM tonight because worst case scenario, they trade their compvig and mafia member for our inventor which is a good trade imo. if foolishness is town-aligned, then he will hit me and bm will still be able to give his invention to foolishness. hypothetical situation: what if mafia hits foolishness? then invention will be wasted again and the town will lose two more greens. Which is exactly the case I'm hoping to avoid by suggesting that the medic not be ordered to protect Bill Murray (just highly encouraged) | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 07:39 Radfield wrote: I'd like to bring this back to our compvig hit. At this point it seems like everyone who has posts an opinion has said to hit Johnnyspazz. Personally I don't find him all that scummy, so I'd like to propose a possible second target. At first I was suspicious of Falcynn, but I checked though his history and the main thing that jumped up was that he voted second on the sidesprang lynch, so he seems slightly in the clear. But you know who does strike me as scummy? Scamp. I'm not familiar with his posting in other games, so this might be the norm, but he has accused just about everyone in this game of being mafia. Lets check out some posts This one is taken slightly out of context, but still somewhat incriminating. He followed it with: Finally puts a vote on Sidesprang, AFTER a majority was reached(I think) So what do we have here, early on he pushes for a quick lynch of either BM or Foolishness, while downplaying the importance of the CopyCat. We now know that the copycat was in mafia hands. He puts a hard or soft FoS on pretty much any active poster he can: BM, Foolishness, Korynne, Falcynn, Qatol and myself. This is not an open and shut case, but I'd love for a few other people to take a close look at him. Also I am not yet recommending we switch our compvig vote. Lets stick with Johnnyspazz for now unless more people agree with me on Scamp. ##CompVig Johnnyspazz## I absolutely agree. I've been wondering about Scamp and citi.zen, but didn't want to go there until after we have resolved Johnnyspazz/JeeJee because, as OpZ told me earlier, I was "too all over the place". As far as his posting in other games goes, I can't definitively tell you either. The only other game I played with him was his first game, not counting speed or smurf if he was in them. He was mafia in the first game I hosted and played the clueless newbie extremely well early on, but because the mafia had a huge lead, they all got cocky and basically stopped talking (Scamp included). At the very least, Scamp would make an excellent target for a rolecheck/alignment check/tracker. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 07:46 citi.zen wrote: I do not want the discussion about names distract us from the function. Invent a gun_that_only_kills_Mafia. Or a grenade, so medic or bullet proof or vet does not stop it. Grenade is a horrible idea. We do not want anything that can kill townies. We do not want anything bomb-related because of the cell phone. The gun I can accept. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
. It looks like rolechecks or guns that only kill mafia/SK are our best bet.Oh, because I haven't explicitly done this yet (but I'm definitely pushing for it) ##CompVig Johnnyspazz## | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 07:58 Bill Murray wrote: the cellphone was a pm device dude can you please stop saying that youre annoying me with that And this is the first time you have explicitly told us what it did. Besides, I've made this very clear: I don't trust you. Maybe that will change based on how you act in the future, but for right now, you have fought the town every step of the way. Give me a reason to trust you and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 08:07 Bill Murray wrote: i dont need to prove shit to you Actually, you do. You need to prove to everyone that you are innocent. That means being more transparent and forthcoming than you have been so far. On May 06 2010 08:08 Scamp wrote: Qatol this whole cell phone as detonator thing is striking me as wildly paranoid. Not that that can't be the case, but you constantly bringing it up is starting to get annoying. I was probably wrong about Radfield and Qatol, but I don't think my suspicions were so off-base. My quote on Rad was before the game even began, and Falcynn, BM, and Foolishness haven't exactly done much to rid themselves of suspicion IMO. And no, my vote for SS was not after majority had been reached. I think I was right in the middle, which is of course the most likely spot for a mafia bus. So that doesn't actually help my defense. I really don't think anything I've done has been so wrong. Oh I agree I'm probably being paranoid. However, notice that I only bring this up whenever someone talks about making a bomb. If people would stop doing that, I would stop bringing it up. I'm just trying to drive home the point that bombs are a bad idea while Bill Murray's alignment is a question mark. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 08:10 citi.zen wrote: Not if the name says it, right? Anyway, it should flat out kill, regardless of vet/protection status, and only kill reds. Can we agree this is better than a kit? Sorry, I totally misinterpreted. A weapon that can kill SK or mafia is fine by me. I'm okay with Bill wanting to make it detonate if that player attacks him as well. But I don't see why it can't be a gun with bulletproof piercing rounds. I guess I'm just arguing semantics though. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 08:38 Bill Murray wrote: ill just invent an alignment checking kit that can only be used to check me so u will shut up You shouldn't have to. If you would just follow the town's instructions, we could use this check on someone more suspicious like Scamp instead of wasting it on you. Believe it or not, the game is not all about you. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 08:43 Bill Murray wrote: i am much more suspicious of you than scamp, and i am not suspicious of you at all really. the only reason i'm suspicious of him at all is from his stance towards sidesprang. the only reason i am suspicious of you at all is because of your attitude. Then give us someone you are more suspicious of. Who do you want to see alignment checked? | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 12:08 citi.zen wrote: You entire stance on this issue is extremely shaky. First you don't want a gun. Then you are OK with it, but would simply make it bullet-piercing (even though that still allows a medic-protected red to live, presumably). Then you are "ok" with the gun detonating if the attacker hits Bill - yet the whole freaking point of the gun is that it CAN ONLY KILL REDS - so if Bill is town making the gun he should have no need for it to detonate, since IT CAN'T KILL BILL ANYWAY. This is very shaky reasoning about a very simple matter, totally out of character for you Qatol. The original gun we were talking about could kill innocents. I hadn't thought of a gun that cannot kill innocents until someone else had brought it up. I'm okay with a gun that can't kill townies. Bill still has to give the gun to someone else to use. While it can't shoot him, he is giving it to someone we basically know has KP (though he hasn't acknowledged it). Thus he wants it to be able to detonate if that player shoots him even through other means. This idea also protects him in the future if he happened to give a gun to the mafia because if the mafia hit him, the gun blows up one of their members. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 11:48 johnnyspazz wrote: ionno i read this and thought jeejee and i were related somehow You two are somewhat related in that you might be in a group together. So if one of you is mafia, the other cannot be mafia. Really I only brought you up together because at the time neither of you had been contributing. I didn't even realize at the time that you two could be in a group together until I looked at when people claimed their numbers. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 12:36 Qatol wrote: You two are somewhat related in that you might be in a group together. So if one of you is mafia, the other cannot be mafia. Really I only brought you up together because at the time neither of you had been contributing. I didn't even realize at the time that you two could be in a group together until I looked at when people claimed their numbers. Sorry, Foolishness and Bill Murray. I did it again. If one of them is mafia, it is extremely unlikely that the other one is mafia, but they could still be Serial Killer. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 12:56 citi.zen wrote: By the way - Qatol's objections were never that it would not be allowed. Instead, he repeatedly tried to say such an invention would not help the town, even if allowed. I said the detective kit wasn't as good as the extra night life when I thought it was permanent. Detective kit is fine if conditional bullets are not allowed. And what "half-baked objections" are you worried about? I don't like bombs. I agree the mafia gun thing JeeJee caught was a bit of a slipup. Is there anything else? You're pushing pretty hard and I'm starting to wonder why. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 13:03 Zona wrote: Actually the more I think about it the more I like the gunpowder detection kit idea. The tracker role is able to see the serial killer when the serial killer goes out on the kill, so there is a way for the serial killer to be detected - as long as functionality doesn't depend on the serial killer's alignment itself. A gunpowder detection kit will detect not based on alignment, but ability to kill - so I'm expecting that it would be able to detect the serial killer's guns. A gunpowder detection kit - that's what I suggest the inventor invent. Hmm but wouldn't this also detect the Jack and DayVig? Or does it only work when the targeted player actually kills? | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 13:17 citi.zen wrote: Because these are very simple mistakes and I'd expect better. Pointing out that Bill is not making sense is useless. Having that happen with you, Ace, Zona, etc - is a whole different animal. What exactly was a mistake? The only mistake I have made so far that you are talking about was my screwup with the mafia/gun thing. You haven't challenged any of my explanations. Why is this such an issue? Do my explanations not make sense? I ask you again: why are you pushing so hard? What are you even pushing on? Why are you putting words into my mouth? | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 13:36 citi.zen wrote: Which words did I put in your mouth? On May 06 2010 12:56 citi.zen wrote: By the way - Qatol's objections were never that it would not be allowed. Instead, he repeatedly tried to say such an invention would not help the town, even if allowed. Don't speak for me. I can do that myself thank you. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
| ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 13:59 DarthThienAn wrote: Uhh... ... ... I'm going to assume the medic DIDNT protect Bill Murray -_- It doesn't necessarily mean that at all. The medic very well could have protected Bill Murray. It is just as likely that both the mafia and the SK hit Bill Murray. On May 06 2010 14:01 Qatol wrote: Hmm the Night post has a few interesting points. Only 2 deaths: johnnyspazz and Bill Murray. Did we have a hit blocked? Or did the mafia and the SK happen to hit the same target? If anyone else has more information about the night (like if you took a hit), please come forward. EBWOP: Sorry, got excited and didn't point out the other thing interesting about the night post: No invention. Is that just because he died? | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 14:14 citi.zen wrote: Good one. So, in your own words - did you ever raise the objection that JeeJee's suggested invention was not permitted? I don't even know what invention you are talking about any more. Either way, let me make my own objections to proposals. Call me out for being inconsistent if you will, but let me talk for myself. On May 06 2010 16:35 Korynne wrote: I don't follow BM's logic with his last post. XD In any case I've been reading, I just haven't posted because I don't really have anything to say... We now have 12 people left, 3 mafia. Now that BM is gone I'm concerned that no one will stand up to Qatol in case he is mafia. But other than that I think town is better off without the distraction of what to invent and whether BM is pro town. I know this is a very fluffy post but like I said not much I have to say... Just letting you know I'm still around. If you don't want me pushing around the town, then why don't you stand up to me yourself? Or why don't you read the last few pages and notice that citi.zen and I have been squabbling? On May 06 2010 19:09 Radfield wrote: I have been shot at and saved by the medic. Good work medic. Likely scenario:Foolishness kills Jspazz, Mafia shoot at me, SK kills Bill Murray. If you think about it, BM was a bigger threat to the SK then anyone else in the game. Considering that the only way the SK can get found is either the tracker or BM's inventions. Wow, the likelihood of us lynching you for this move was decently high... oh well I think your scenario is probably the most likely one too. You caught a mafia and basically established yourself as likely not mafia. That makes you a pretty good target for a night hit. On May 06 2010 19:44 Radfield wrote: Forgot to mention, she also made some strange contradictory comments about role checking and alignment checking. It really jumped out at the time. She claimed Vanilla, and then suggested that we rolecheck her? If you were a Vanilla mafia a great way to clear some suspicious off of oneself would be to get rolechecked. It tells nothing about alignment, but makes you at worst a powerless mafia. Also, a big note to the Serial Killer. You need to be playing on the town side. With a 8:3:1 ratio, things are definitely in favor of the mafia, considering we don't have any great leads. I propose we vote on the Serial Killer hit tonight in addition to our CompVig hit. Presumably it is in the best interests of the SK and he/she may follow along. If the SK doesn't follow along, it doesn't hurt us anyways. Thoughts? People who strike me as possible Mafia: One of JeeJee or Hobbes(where are you?) , Scamp, DarthTheinAn I'd like to hear all of your thoughts on lynching and CompVig hitting. People who strike me as Not-Mafia: Citizen, Qatol, Falcynn, maybe Zona (I don't like innocent lists[check out incognito last game], and can explain all of the people on this list if need be) I wasn't really worried about citi.zen until a few pages ago when he started attacking me out of nowhere, so I'd like to hear your reasoning on him. And Falcynn has barely contributed in the thread. At the very least, he hasn't brought much in the way of new ideas to the conversation. Who do you think is the strongest candidate for mafia on that list? Cases have been made against JeeJee and Scamp so far. Out of the other players, both Darth and Korynne started out strong, but have really faded due to recent inactivity (which is actually a pretty strong scum tell usually). I don't believe Hobbes was super active at any point in the game? What do you think about OpZ? + Show Spoiler [Bid list] + 1. 2. Foolishness - [1] [1] 3. Korynne - [1] [5] 4. Falcynn [1] [7] 5. [NyC]HoBbes - [4] [1] 6. ~OpZ~ - [4] [14] 7. 8. 9. 10. Qatol - [6] [1] 11. JeeJee - [6] [1] 12. DarthThienAn - [8] [1] 13. 14. 15. Radfield - [10] [1] 16. Scamp - [10] [11] 17. Zona - [12] [1] 18. citi.zen - [12] [3] Groups: + Show Spoiler [Group 1] + + Show Spoiler [Group 2] + Foolishness Korynne Falcynn (could have lied and is really in Group 3) + Show Spoiler [Group 3] + Hobbes ~OpZ~ + Show Spoiler [Group 4] + Qatol JeeJee (could have lied and is really in Group 5) + Show Spoiler [Group 5] + DarthThienAn + Show Spoiler [Group 6] + Radfield Scamp (could be in Group 7, but that is unlikely because Ace moved him + Radfield around together and it relies upon Amnesia being in this group) + Show Spoiler [Group 7] + Zona citi.zen This is the time of the game where this list starts to become strong. Based on the number theory, I think it is unlikely that both Darth and JeeJee are mafia. Similarly, it is unlikely that Hobbes and OpZ are mafia together. Based on the list you presented, I think the best lynch target is Scamp. I want to give Darth and JeeJee a chance to distinguish themselves (I would have pushed for him based on what I was saying during the night except he actually came out and posted a few things which were somewhat constructive while Darth really hasn't done much since day 1). The biggest worrisome thing about this to me is that we know there is a medic out there still and I told Scamp to take medic very early. I don't know for sure that he did so, but it seems like a pretty likely bet. Thoughts anyone else? | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 06 2010 23:06 citi.zen wrote: For some reason I don't have the "show all posts" option anymore in the thread - does anyone know how I can get it back? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=121629 View all posts has been disabled for all threads > 25 pages. It's a serious pain for mafia threads. You basically need to use the archives now and doing research in older threads takes a lot more time. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 07 2010 01:01 DarthThienAn wrote: Well... it doesn't necessarily mean that he isn't the SK. All it means that the medic actually DID protect him, or else he's taking a risk in assuming that there are no medics left in the game so that he won't get called out. However, to me, he's 99% pro-town. Hobbes and JeeJee seem to know something that no one else knows - either both of them are town, or both of them are mafia? Well... that's not necessarily true, but both of them think the other is of the same alignment at least. 1 could be mafia tricking the other into believe he is innocent using the role that they picked. As for my "fading out", I've been reading pretty relatively regularly... well not "regularly" but frequently I think. I post when I have something to contribute, or have an idea. Plus, stuff happens. We all have lives =p. I'm not sure the mafia would've put someone down as 1. I mean, we basically had two or three people claiming they were going 1, 1 early right? I know L said that. It seems silly for them to waste their time doesn't it? The only reason I see them doing it, is they are assuming that only one person would pick 1,1, so they want to deny that person getting first pick. Okay without Hobbes/JeeJee as mafia and without anyone who picked 1 as mafia, and I'll take out yourself and radfield you are basically saying the mafia are 3 of these 4: Opz, scamp, zona/citizen, and myself. Is that an accurate assessment of the situation to you? | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 07 2010 01:09 Qatol wrote: Okay without Hobbes/JeeJee as mafia and without anyone who picked 1 as mafia, and I'll take out yourself and radfield you are basically saying the mafia are 3 of these 4: Opz, scamp, zona/citizen, and myself. Is that an accurate assessment of the situation to you? EBWOP: That should be opz/falcynn depending on whether or not you trust opz's #s | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 07 2010 01:14 Qatol wrote: EBWOP: That should be opz/falcynn depending on whether or not you trust opz's #s EBWOP again: ugh. Sorry. I mean opz/falcynn depending on whether or not you trust FALCYNN's #s | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 07 2010 01:23 Radfield wrote: Well, as far as I'm concerned this takes both Hobbes and JeeJee off the short list. They might both be mafia together, but in that case one will lead us to the other. Qatol, I was re-reading those posts I put up this morning, and I was a little bit confused as to why I put Citizen on that non-mafia list as well. The reason is this though, pretty much everyone on my suspicious list has called out citizen as potential mafia. Citizen style this game also just seems so obviously scummy, (right down to the pointless arguing with you, when you are very obviously in my eyes non-mafia) that I'm inclined to think him a townie. If pressed I would take him off the non-mafia list, but I don't think him all that likely to be scummy. As far as Falcynn, my sole reasoning is that he immediately agreed with my origional post about sidesprang, and the way he worded everything strikes me as town. No one else had agreed with me about Sidesprang yet, and yet he was still the first one aboard. I think a mafia would have been slightly less ok with it. The post I'm referring to: Korynne: I completely understand what you're saying about possibly being burnt out etc. However, I think you're a very clever player. You played your first game as a very active townie, you played your second game as a very active mafia, and being very convincing at that. I'm inclined to think that if you got mafia again in this game, you might play it exactly the way you are. Fake being tired of Mafia as an excuse to post less. Unfortunately for all of us, there's little you can do at this point to remove suspicion from yourself. Anyways, I'm genuinely hoping you're mafia, and that you're burnt out routine is an act, because you seem like a good player to have around. Korynne is a good target, because I think despite her alignment, she told the truth about being Vanilla. So worst case scenario we kill a vanilla townie who isn't that upset about being killed anyways, but gives us a lead to Foolishness maybe. Best case we get a vanilla mafia. JeeJee and Hobbes should get a pass for today, but if a bunch of other targets turn up innocent, we might have to hit them both. At some point the information they are sharing needs to be made public. If we don't hit a mafia with our lynch or comphit hit today, and the SK hits another townie, we'll need as much info as we can get. If we had to lynch one of them, I'd go with JeeJee I stand by what I said earlier about Scamp, but if we decide to lynch him and he is the medic, then he needs to roleclaim. If no one contradicts him, then we call off the lynch. Keep in mind, the medic is basically a confirmed townie, and pretty much a confirmed non-SK. I can't see why the SK would take medic as a role, though perhaps to deny it from the town, perhaps because it gives him/her a convenient cover. ~opz~: I think Opz threw me off his trail by his vehement defense when I called him out. He just seemed outraged that I was wasting time by putting him on any suspect lists. What made me suspect him was how he tried to sidetrack my Sidesprang argument, but looking at it now makes me think it was just a knee-jerk reaction of seeing his name on a suspect list. I also buy his story of trying for CompVig and failing. Likely Vanilla either way. Personally his posting makes me think he's town. I put him as a second string lynch target for now. DarthTheinAn seems suspect. He made a case against ~opz~ early on. Votes for Jspazz over JeeJee for the CV hit. Try's to give Scamp a pass for being TOO mafia. None of these things necessarily make him a mafia. But his posting in general smacks of mafia to me, I recommend everyone look through his posting. Points out lots of obvious stuff, steers the convo away from certain people, lots of theorycrafting early on, not much talk about voting later on. Darth seems mafia, and seems like he might lead us to other mafia. I vote we lynch DarthTheinAn, If he flops red, then I propose we Compvig Scamp, and ask the SK to hit JeeJee ##Vote DarthTheinAn## I haven't really talked about Zona, but I really don't have much to say about him. He seems fairly legit and is likely working hard on the zbot.... I didn't proofread as I've run out of time and steam. If there's anything I said that doesn't make sense please point it out. First thing that jumps out at me is if you believe the mafia didn't intentionally pick the same number (on 6 or 8 no less), JeeJee and Darth are not mafia together. I fully agree about opz. He went crazy when I mentioned him too. I took him off my list for the moment because of that. He's either an amazing actor or is legitimately townie, and I'm leaning towards the latter, especially since I haven't seen any indications of amazing play in his previous games. I'd like Darth to respond to my post before I decide he's the best target. Why not push for Scamp right now though? With your lynch plan he would have to roleclaim as medic before the mafia/SK hit list is posted anyways. The only thing I see Darth resolving for us is JeeJee who I think is basically equally suspect. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 07 2010 01:59 Radfield wrote: That's a good point. JeeJee and Darth are likely not mafia together. JeeJee is less likely overall given the fact that he possibly shares numbers with Sidesprang. It is possible he lied about them. Worth checking the time stamps on all the number claims to see if he was totally in the clear when he posted his numbers. If he was, it gives that defence less credibility. Either Scamp or Darth are good targets. I don't mind lynching either one. Whoever the medic is out there, be sure to roleclaim if you are going to be killed by the town, whether it by lynching, CV or suggested SK hit. As far as I'm concerned, the medic is very very likely pro-town. Unfortunately this quickly lowers the possible people the medic could be, and makes his/her death-by-mafia much more likely. Lets just hope there's a meth-man out there as well to keep the mafia honest. I already checked the time stamps. The people who could have plausibly lied are JeeJee and Falcynn. Scamp technically could have, but he would need serious guts to have done so. That's why I think we are basically stuck with a coin flip between the two unless someone has a strong case to go for one over the other. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 07 2010 02:51 Scamp wrote: Actually, I'm kind of confused why people suspect me right now. There's a whole lot of analysis and then I'm thrown in there as a good lynch target. Has my play been anti-town at any point? I don't think I've seen much evidence of that. Just a list of people I find (or used to find) suspect. I think it's more that you haven't done much which seemed pro-town and your suspect lists seem like they are pretty off base. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 07 2010 03:46 Scamp wrote: The only problem with Korynne being mafia is that Foolishness would have to be mafia too. Remember that compvig was never actually confirmed, though if Radfield is telling the truth then there is one in the game (or we have a very sly mafia Joat). Now that BM is confirmed inventor, for Korynne to lie about not getting compvig that means that Foolishness did not pick it. If Foolishness did not pick compvig then he would have no reason to lie to us at this point except if he's mafia. What? Why can't we have a mafia Korynne and an innocent Foolishness? Foolishness could have just been innocent and gone against his assignment. He does do somewhat paranoid things from time to time. Like in the speed game, he told me he was in contact with a nonexistent vigilante because he was suspicious of me. Late game, when we needed that vigi to take a shot, it didn't happen and we lost. On May 07 2010 04:24 DarthThienAn wrote: + Show Spoiler [Qatol's post] + On May 07 2010 01:09 Qatol wrote: Okay without Hobbes/JeeJee as mafia and without anyone who picked 1 as mafia, and I'll take out yourself and radfield you are basically saying the mafia are 3 of these 4: Opz, scamp, zona/citizen, and myself. Is that an accurate assessment of the situation to you? + Show Spoiler [Radfield's post] + On May 07 2010 01:23 Radfield wrote: Well, as far as I'm concerned this takes both Hobbes and JeeJee off the short list. They might both be mafia together, but in that case one will lead us to the other. Qatol, I was re-reading those posts I put up this morning, and I was a little bit confused as to why I put Citizen on that non-mafia list as well. The reason is this though, pretty much everyone on my suspicious list has called out citizen as potential mafia. Citizen style this game also just seems so obviously scummy, (right down to the pointless arguing with you, when you are very obviously in my eyes non-mafia) that I'm inclined to think him a townie. If pressed I would take him off the non-mafia list, but I don't think him all that likely to be scummy. As far as Falcynn, my sole reasoning is that he immediately agreed with my origional post about sidesprang, and the way he worded everything strikes me as town. No one else had agreed with me about Sidesprang yet, and yet he was still the first one aboard. I think a mafia would have been slightly less ok with it. The post I'm referring to: Korynne: I completely understand what you're saying about possibly being burnt out etc. However, I think you're a very clever player. You played your first game as a very active townie, you played your second game as a very active mafia, and being very convincing at that. I'm inclined to think that if you got mafia again in this game, you might play it exactly the way you are. Fake being tired of Mafia as an excuse to post less. Unfortunately for all of us, there's little you can do at this point to remove suspicion from yourself. Anyways, I'm genuinely hoping you're mafia, and that you're burnt out routine is an act, because you seem like a good player to have around. Korynne is a good target, because I think despite her alignment, she told the truth about being Vanilla. So worst case scenario we kill a vanilla townie who isn't that upset about being killed anyways, but gives us a lead to Foolishness maybe. Best case we get a vanilla mafia. JeeJee and Hobbes should get a pass for today, but if a bunch of other targets turn up innocent, we might have to hit them both. At some point the information they are sharing needs to be made public. If we don't hit a mafia with our lynch or comphit hit today, and the SK hits another townie, we'll need as much info as we can get. If we had to lynch one of them, I'd go with JeeJee I stand by what I said earlier about Scamp, but if we decide to lynch him and he is the medic, then he needs to roleclaim. If no one contradicts him, then we call off the lynch. Keep in mind, the medic is basically a confirmed townie, and pretty much a confirmed non-SK. I can't see why the SK would take medic as a role, though perhaps to deny it from the town, perhaps because it gives him/her a convenient cover. ~opz~: I think Opz threw me off his trail by his vehement defense when I called him out. He just seemed outraged that I was wasting time by putting him on any suspect lists. What made me suspect him was how he tried to sidetrack my Sidesprang argument, but looking at it now makes me think it was just a knee-jerk reaction of seeing his name on a suspect list. I also buy his story of trying for CompVig and failing. Likely Vanilla either way. Personally his posting makes me think he's town. I put him as a second string lynch target for now. DarthTheinAn seems suspect. He made a case against ~opz~ early on. Votes for Jspazz over JeeJee for the CV hit. Try's to give Scamp a pass for being TOO mafia. None of these things necessarily make him a mafia. But his posting in general smacks of mafia to me, I recommend everyone look through his posting. Points out lots of obvious stuff, steers the convo away from certain people, lots of theorycrafting early on, not much talk about voting later on. Darth seems mafia, and seems like he might lead us to other mafia. I vote we lynch DarthTheinAn, If he flops red, then I propose we Compvig Scamp, and ask the SK to hit JeeJee ##Vote DarthTheinAn## I haven't really talked about Zona, but I really don't have much to say about him. He seems fairly legit and is likely working hard on the zbot.... I didn't proofread as I've run out of time and steam. If there's anything I said that doesn't make sense please point it out. Alright. Let me explain myself, hopefully in full. I personally don't buy that something like a third of the players in the game are Vanilla because they "forgot" to PM Ace with their picks or they picked something already picked. THREE people picked Comp Vig, Opz being the lowest one down - he claimed he didn't read the thread before picking which is just dumb to me, and is one of the things that made me suspicious. Well, let's first rewind - the first thing that made me notice him was the fact that picked [4][14], which was coincidentally d3's number. But no one else seemed to care and we were steering away from the draft analysis, so I didn't bring it up again and distract the thread. That's because nobody really had anything to gain by claiming that little quirk. opz had to have picked [4][?]. The second number really isn't that important. Back to his role. Foolishness and Korynne (I'm assuming Foolishness is the CV and Korynne also picked it) I sort of understand picking CV because Foolishness... might have wanted CV (? Don't really know why he went for it) and Korynne picked it as per what the town was discussing iirc. But Opz, I don't really understand at all. There's no reason why you would do that, the same as if there's no reason why anyone would have picked copycat, except for mafia. What's more, as I said when I called him out, is that he claimed going for Comp Vig after Korynne had long been talking about it, which makes it really easy for him to lie, similar to the way some of the numbers people claimed could be lies. He also said this early on: + Show Spoiler [Opz's post] + On May 03 2010 14:42 ~OpZ~ wrote: It also gives the perfect opportunity for meds to just protect a smaller list of people. Inventor could claim, give someone from the top a veteran kit/bulletproof kit/nightlight to keep away the evil mafia away. Medicas can protect the other ones. We don't know who claimed Role Cop/ Alignment cop/meds... We don't need the role I tried to pick, so me claiming shouldn't matter. Compulsive vig isn't really an epic role unless you are insanely lucky, or the town is insanely coordinated and good. So we should be good. Alignment should check near top/Role cop should check near top. perhaps RC number 2, and alignment #1/3 Inventor could likely safely claim and coordinate atleast two protections. Seriously, hand out a vetkit/nightlight, and have a med protect him....If mafia hit a vet/bulletproof/protected target, they lose their nightkill... Inventor shouldn't hide, and meds should protect him if mafia are likely to hit the top of the list. Why claim later then? He says he's not going to claim, and later claims CompVigDenied-Vanilla. And, like I said, there was no need for him to roleclaim - there was no possible way it could help the town. We already knew that the CompVig was above Korynne. Unless she was lying, but his word was as good as hers. So claiming only helps the mafia really (unless you are lying to trick the mafia), because town can't really confirm that whether or not you're vanilla, but you're giving the mafia less targets to hit first. So a lot of unprovable "I'm Vanilla townie" things = I read possible scum. + Show Spoiler [His reply to me] + On May 05 2010 08:23 ~OpZ~ wrote: And when I die, I hope they read your name as the perpetrator who hath slain me. Just because I refuse to led around like a sheep? You go be sheep. I've also defended killing Qatol, which quite a few people jumped on that to say he should die, just based on role claims alone. Eh? Please appear less scummy to the green towny plz Darth. Thank you. Oh, and seriously, go look me up. I've been mafia once? I was silent the entire game. And every game I'm townie, I always say F the towns sheepness. I didn't bother replying with this because, we were moving on to move important things first of all, and his response didn't say anything except "this is how I play, Darth be less scummy plz." He sorta dodged the things I pointed out against him, but, once again, I didn't point this out because by the time I rechecked the thread, it would have been a waste of all of our times to reply. He's still suspicious to me, but you apparently have other concerns, so... No this is a decent argument other than the numbers thing. You really should have brought this up sooner. Next. My thoughts about Scamp were this: as someone pointed out (Radfield maybe?), Scamp was a bit sporadic in his finger pointing. My argument was that a normal mafia wouldn't do this, imo. Mafia want to throw attention onto other people/things, not attract attention by calling out several people without justification. That's why I said that Scamp might be more town to me. It was just a personal hunch though. If you guys feel strongly about Scamp, go with it. Those alive: 2. Foolishness - [1] [1] 3. Korynne - [1] [5] 4. Falcynn [1] [7] 5. [NyC]HoBbes - [4] [1] 6. ~OpZ~ - [4] [14] 10. Qatol - [6] [1] 11. JeeJee - [6] [1] 12. DarthThienAn - [8] [1] 15. Radfield - [10] [1] 16. Scamp - [10] [11] 17. Zona - [12] [1] 18. citi.zen - [12] [3] I think Rad is innocent. I think Qatol is most likely town as well. Zona/citi.zen I haven't really looked at. Scamp I kinda thought was innocent because of his finger pointing. I'm not sure about the [1]'s, but, looking at who we have left, one of the mafia might be among them. If I was mafia, I personally wouldn't have picked [1] except to deny L first pick, but they very well could've. So what I said earlier was just a possibility - the same way that Qatol's groups, though it's very likely that they work out, are not for certain. I actually have to go now, so I'll post this now and finish up later >_>. Class ~ Out of your statements, you said earlier you are inclined to believe that hobbes and jeejee are the same alignment. Now you just eliminated myself and radfield. I'm just wondering who that leaves. Foolishness/Korynne/Falcynn, opz, scamp, and zona/citi.zen unless hobbes and jeejee are both mafia. And one of the situations which you say is unlikely to be true pretty much must be true. I've been thinking about the medic thing a bit more. You are obviously a decently smart player (protecting Radfield over Bill Murray), so I think we should leave claiming up to you. However, you need to decide whether you want to claim right now. This is because if we put a mafia up on the chopping block, they can just claim medic to out you anyways. Serial Killer may try to do it to save their skin as well. If you do it, the mafia may just crossclaim in order to make us waste a lynch on you anyways (less likely than the other two, but possible, considering the state the game is in). The only way a player does not claim medic when they are on the chopping block is if they are an innocent non-medic. So I propose this idea: we believe a roleclaim of medic for the next 10 hours. This allows the medic to separate himself or herself from those we are actively talking about on the chopping block if necessary. If no roleclaim is forthcoming, we do not believe any future roleclaims of medic. Do not roleclaim unless you deem it absolutely necessary. We don't want to lose you tonight if we can help it. Anyone disagree with this idea? | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 07 2010 05:34 Foolishness wrote: Maybe not. There could be a Jack protection. Given the lack of roles that were obtained in this game, it's very possible there's no other medic. It still doesn't add up. There's no way he could know there was a medic Okay you are totally right. Sorry, I'm still used to 48 hour days. We just don't have time to deal with a medic claim. I don't think that as a SK he would claim to be protected by a medic unless he was holding the role himself. Otherwise, those sorts of things can wind up coming back to bite you pretty badly, especially considering the emphasis we put on people taking that role during the role selection. Regardless, we need to pick someone and start voting. So who is the most suspicious to you and why? | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 07 2010 06:04 Falcynn wrote: We can just day vig/CV one of us and lynch the other. Although I'm actually not really sold on JeeJee, I'll try to get back in time to do my own analysis on him. Considering Qatol has struck me as suspicious a few times, I'm not just ready to take his word for it, but if other people share the same sentiment that it's very likely either JeeJee or I are lying then I wouldn't be too opposed to essentially a double lynch. Umm I'm talking about the people who could have lied about their numbers. Both you and JeeJee are at the end/start of one of the "groups." Both of you also claimed your numbers after the person above you and below you on the list. Therefore, it is possible that you lied about your numbers. Check it out if you wish. My coin flip was referring to darthienan vs. jeejee. More importantly: you haven't contributed yet. Who do you think we should lynch and why? | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 07 2010 06:28 Foolishness wrote: Korynne is most suspicious to me. She was an active part of the community in the beginning, and has since dropped out due to boredom (conveniently right as we killed a mafia too...). That's a pretty standard mafia move, and I think you already mentioned it: being active in the beginning to gain trust then hiding it out. The biggest reason I'm suspicious of her is because of her "fine just kill me if you don't believe me" attitude, and she has mentioned something along these lines in multiple posts, not just once. I see this defense all the time in real life mafia and it's usually the sign of a mafia member "giving up" so to say. The fact that she admitted to being bored and not wanting to contribute doesn't help either. And as far as I can see, Hobbes has contributed as much as Amnesia has this game. Having a "fun fun role" as he called it does not justify him sitting around. So you think the mafia picked 1? Darth was just mentioning that he did not think that was the case because of L/Bill Murray both claiming to have taken [1][1]. Do you disagree? Why? | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 07 2010 07:57 Ace wrote: By the way, Bill Murray you'll be banned from future games for posting game relevant information after death. You should have known to keep your mouth shut. Right, I was wondering about that one actually. I assume you're talking about him telling us he decided not to make an invention? | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 07 2010 08:07 Radfield wrote: We only have a few hours left till lynch time, so it's time to hone in on people. At this point we have several different routes to go, and several different suspects. The key in my mind, is lynching someone who gives us info towards aiming our CV hit. So if you're going to propose to lynch someone, I'd like to know who you're going to vote for the CV hit if they flop red or green. I'll reiterate my current stance: Lynch Darth, if red CV scamp, if green CV JeeJee. The reason being, I think one of Darth and JeeJee are mafia, so if not Darth then JeeJee. And if Darth is red, then we follow up with our second most suspicious person Scamp. If we lynch Korynne, what do we do if she turns up green? CV Foolishness? Not likely. If she turns up red who do we CV? Darth? JeeJee? Scamp? I'd like to hear other peoples thoughts along this line of thinking. I'd also love to hear what Zona has to say. With 12 in the game we need 7 to lynch. We need to learn from our lynchings, I'm not saying my plan is the best, but I just want everyone to think in terms of a long-term plan. So don't bother criticizing my Darth plan, just come up with a better one. Also, if we don't get a mafia tonight, we are basically forced to lynch Foolishness tomorrow in an effort to buy time. We don't need to discuss this yet, but lets keep it in mind. Fine, I'll bite. I agree that he is suspicious and we need to lynch someone right now. ##Vote: DarThienAn## Though citi.zen never ceases to amaze me with his ability to come out of nowhere and vote. I want to try something out tonight. ##CompVig: citi.zen## This is just a theory, but I think he is the serial killer. Why? Well go back and look at his discussion of inventions. He specifically emphasizes inventions that not only the town, but the SK would also be immune to (immune to alignment checks, guns that can only kill MAFIA not guns that CANNOT KILL INNOCENTS) Finally, I'm hoping that the SK will work with us tonight (and they very well might if I'm off base on this). In that case, I'd like them to hit either Scamp or JeeJee based on how this lynch comes out. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
| ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 07 2010 08:32 Foolishness wrote: Nothing is going to get put together. That's never the case. I don't think we can draw conclusions either way. We should be hunting based on attitude, there's plenty to go by, not by trying to figure out who's death gives us the most information. I would rather kill someone no matter who (not myself though) than have a no lynch. If you're short majority near time I will gladly change. We can't afford not lynching someone. That isn't what I meant. Sorry, I meant put together enough votes to get a lynch. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 07 2010 10:02 citi.zen wrote: Don't have a tone of time, but I think Radfield is right actually. ##vote DarthThienAn## Qatol, thanks. You are making me feel better about arguing against you. I never wanted an invention that would keep the SK safe. I wanted something better than the DT kit. I liked JeeJee's proposal of a gun that would not kill townies. You know this. Keep it up though. Then why didn't you advocate making one even once? On May 06 2010 07:46 citi.zen wrote: I do not want the discussion about names distract us from the function. Invent a gun_that_only_kills_Mafia. Or a grenade, so medic or bullet proof or vet does not stop it. On May 06 2010 08:10 citi.zen wrote: Not if the name says it, right? Anyway, it should flat out kill, regardless of vet/protection status, and only kill reds. Can we agree this is better than a kit? (I assume rd=red here) On May 06 2010 08:53 citi.zen wrote: Just invent the rd-only killing machine man. It's a kit + gun in one and cannot easily hurt the town. Could confuse us at most if given to a red, but I like the odds. On May 06 2010 12:08 citi.zen wrote: You entire stance on this issue is extremely shaky. First you don't want a gun. Then you are OK with it, but would simply make it bullet-piercing (even though that still allows a medic-protected red to live, presumably). Then you are "ok" with the gun detonating if the attacker hits Bill - yet the whole freaking point of the gun is that it CAN ONLY KILL REDS - so if Bill is town making the gun he should have no need for it to detonate, since IT CAN'T KILL BILL ANYWAY. This is very shaky reasoning about a very simple matter, totally out of character for you Qatol. On May 06 2010 12:55 citi.zen wrote: Right: Ace, would we be allowed to invent a "device_that_only_kills_when_pointed_at_reds"? Is this game breaking or not? Anyways, I'll leave this alone until the lynch. We have other priorities. On May 07 2010 10:05 Radfield wrote: That's actually not a bad idea, although it really depends on the situation. There may be a time when we simply can't risk him being mafia and getting off a double kill. Umm Strategic modkill = nono unless Ace is moderating this WAY differently from every other host (which I highly doubt). On May 07 2010 10:38 DarthThienAn wrote: I missed the first vote because time went fast and I was busy casting for CSL and forgot =[. It happens I guess. I'll admit that my activity level plummeted quite a bit. Part of the reason is that the weekend ended, so I spent less time on mafia than on the weekend obviously. Once we got down to concrete analysis, I had less to say, and only posted when I DID have something to say. Theorycrafting is easy for me, especially with numbers >_>. Analyzing posting behavior is hard, since I don't know any of you. I didn't realize that I pointed out obvious stuff and didn't contribute much =[. Guess I'll have to work on that. I called Amnesia out for being scummy on the fact that he was completely inactive and getting away with it. I called it scummy not necessarily because I thought he was mafia, but because I didn't want people to let him get away if he WAS mafia. I felt that my accusation on jspazz was merited - I mean, Qatol basically said: "let's pick between jspazz and JeeJee" and no one picked between them, so I did. sidesprang, I've been through several times. I think even those who voted for him could be suspicious. Whether or not you vote on a mafia is not an indication on your alignment, unless you are the one who starts it. Even the second or third person could be mafia. Again, my position on Scamp is really shaky. There's a fine line between mafia and TOO mafia. I was hoping that someone would analyze what I had said / agree with it, but jspazz throws out a nothing comment that accents my concerns instead - multiple reverse psychologies is possible, after all. Anyway, lynching me, town'll lose something. But I'll try to help out before my corpse offers you guys information. Any suggestions before I go? If you can't figure out what that means, please don't post, your thoughts aren't worth listening to at this point. Yes, please give us your honest impressions of as many people as you can before you die. I will make sure they are discussed after you die. Opz I know you had a longer post, but I wanted to take care of the quick stuff right now. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 07 2010 11:07 DarthThienAn wrote: No one? Yes, I get it. Fine, you want a name? JeeJee. If you are innocent, he should be mafia. Good? | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
| ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 07 2010 11:40 citi.zen wrote: You are intent on using semantics to distract from substantive issues. Semantics: for most townies the SK is no different than a red, in that killing them is good. So whenever I say "reds" I include the SK. The real issue: JeeJee made the suggestion we create something that was a DT kit + killing weapon that could not hurt the town. I immediately loved it - what townies wouldn't? It's so good, Zona even argued it would not be allowed, that it's game breaking like mafia-finding-bulltets. Yet you argued against it! Most importantly - you know all this. This is a clear attempt on your part to distort the truth and fool other people in town into looking at me as a suspect. Maybe it will work, but even if it does, you will not look good if something were to happen to me. At any rate, I will now consider you most likely red. Yes, I include the SK under that heading. ##Vote compvig hit Qatol## And how do you think you're going to look if something happens to me? You have provided a nice diversion for the last day or so, but seriously. You have done nothing productive so far this game. Nothing at all. Hell, your argument doesn't even make sense. Come back when you can actually make a real argument that doesn't have a simple explanation. Okay, the serial killer is gone. Does that make you feel better about me yet? I'm the only living player that has led us to ANY dead mafia. Now let's just find out what Darth flips so we can make our next move. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
| ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 07 2010 13:22 citi.zen wrote: Ouch. More fine word-smithing. For clarity, this is the post where I started the "diversion": That was the full initial post I made. Then you started to argue with me. You know this. The more you try to pretend this isn't what happened, the worse it looks. This just isn't Qatol-like. Also, way to take credit for sidersprang's lynching now that Radfield is dead. In contrast to me, who has done absolutely nothing in this game, you actually tried to tell people what roles to pick; and tell medics to role-claim; and Bill to make weaker inventions than the ones other players thought were obviously so strong they could be game-breaking; and you led the charge to compvig johnnyspazz - thanks. Enough "distractions", as you say. I still have a problem with a gun called a "silver bullet gun." Don't you? It doesn't have an obvious use that can be determined from its name. How the hell do you know what is Qatol-like? You have never played a game with me. You don't know anything about my play style. And don't try to tell me you have read previous games. They mean nothing when looking at my play style. I probably played the PM game more than just about any player. No more than a third of the posts I was making were actually said by me in the thread. Feel free to ask BC or Ver about it after the game. Yes, I told people what roles to pick so we can hold them responsible for their roles. I've done my part. Have you? I'm not taking full credit for sidesprang's lynch, but go check Radfield's posts. He was crediting me with a big part of the lynch as well. Do you know why? It's because without my copycat stuff, that lynch would not have been possible, at least not by that logic. As for the medic roleclaim, I was worried about lynching a medic. I even backed up on that stance ON MY OWN because I thought it through more carefully and realized we didn't have the time to make it work. And what "weaker" inventions are you talking about? Are you talking about the extra night lives when I wasn't clear on the role? Please do tell. You sure talk a lot of shit and you sure as hell aren't backing it up with any solid comments that haven't been explained already. I'm sick of this. Until you back up your comments with quotes and facts (which have not already been explained), I'm just not going to reply to your posts. You do not have anything relevant left to say. If you are scum, good job pissing me off. However, I think it is a lot more likely that you are just an idiot townie barking up the wrong tree. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [Bid list] + 1. 2. Foolishness - [1] [1] 3. Korynne - [1] [5] 4. Falcynn [1] [7] 5. [NyC]HoBbes - [4] [1] 6. ~OpZ~ - [4] [14] 7. 8. 9. 10. Qatol - [6] [1] 11. JeeJee - [6] [1] 12. 13. 14. 15. 16. Scamp - [10] [11] 17. Zona - [12] [1] 18. citi.zen - [12] [3] Groups: + Show Spoiler [Group 1] + + Show Spoiler [Group 2] + Foolishness Korynne Falcynn (could have lied and is really in Group 3) + Show Spoiler [Group 3] + Hobbes ~OpZ~ + Show Spoiler [Group 4] + Qatol JeeJee + Show Spoiler [Group 5] + + Show Spoiler [Group 6] + Scamp (could be in Group 7, but that is unlikely because Ace moved him + Radfield around together and it relies upon Amnesia being in this group) + Show Spoiler [Group 7] + Zona citi.zen JeeJee is cleared by the number theory. Unless the mafia decided to bid 6 6 8 or 6 8 8 (which seems really silly on their part) JeeJee is innocent. Do NOT CompVig him. Another little odd quirk I noticed which might mean nothing: both mafiosos had a 1 as their second number. There are 4 other (non JeeJee) players who have that number. Myself, Foolishness, Zona, and Hobbes. I don't know for sure, but it might have been that the mafia saw the value of 1 as their second number (because it doesn't move you down a second time). Worth thinking about at least. Speaking of which, where the heck is Zona? The guy hasn't posted in over a day now. Anyways, back to the groups: Zona/citi.zen, Scamp, Myself, Foolishness/Korynne/Falcynn, Hobbes/Opz The last 2 mafia are in two of those groups. Opz looks a little better because he cast the deciding vote for darth when we were scrambling to get one. Citizen also gets credit for voting. Korynne does not because the other candidate was Korynne herself. Hobbes picked the wrong horse, but JeeJee vouches for him. I'll trust JeeJee on this for the moment, but I'm still wondering what happened between the two of you to give you this trust. Did you attempt to pick the same role or something? I'm going to personally go with Scamp for the CompVig hit. He hasn't contributed anywhere near as much as I would have expected him to, and JeeJee is the only player I know for certain I can trust right now. ##CompVig: Scamp## | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 07 2010 23:05 Scamp wrote: I really don't see how Hobbes and JeeJee are in the clear. They didn't even do anything during the last day phase except vote. Meanwhile JeeJee's attitude against me is troublesome. All he's been saying is "kill Scamp" with no explanation why and with tunneling persistence. Other people have at least bothered to share their opinion. Read my number theory. Or just think about how likely it is that the mafia selected [6][1] [6][1] [8][1] or [6][1] [8][1] [8][1]. That is how JeeJee is in the clear. JeeJee vouches for Hobbes based upon the role selection. I agree he hasn't posted much in the way of reasoning, but I guess he likes the stuff that has already been posted on you? JeeJee, what are your thoughts about Zona? On May 08 2010 00:04 citi.zen wrote: After Radfield claimed to be medic protected, the mafia knew for sure he was SK, correct? Is there any scenario under which they would not? Well if we have a mafia medic and a mafia jack on our hands, then I guess the mafia would know for sure that he was SK, bulletproof, or vet. What I think is more likely is that the mafia didn't know what was protecting Radfield from night hits. What they knew is that they took a shot at him and it was blocked. Then he turned around and found another one of their members. I'm not sure they shot him because they knew he was SK at all, they just didn't want him doing any more mafia hunting. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 08 2010 03:30 citi.zen wrote: I wasn't suggesting the mafia hit him because they knew he was SK - in fact they would not have done so, because of the bullet proof ability. I was wondering about Radfield's reaction afterwards - ie choosing to claim he was medic protected. At first I wasn't even sure he even got hit (someone had suggested maybe he held off on a hit and claimed the hit just to get more credibility) - but that seems wrong. Double stacking on Bill by chance could have happened too, but again, then there was little reason to claim. So Radfiled really did get hit by the mafia, and he killed Bill. Now, a pro-town player that gets hit would presumably announce it, so he had to say something if he wanted to try to remain undiscovered by the mafia. He could claim medic protection, veteran, or bullet-proof. All risky claims if there is someone else with that role around - and bullet proof makes people think of the SK anyway. So he went with the medic claim. As Foolishness said before, the "right call" would have been to state ambiguously that he "took a hit". But that's exactly what I'm wondering about. What if he really WAS medic protected? Medic protection generally supercedes all other kinds except martyr, and if I were medic, he is the player I would have watched that night. As far as the "took a hit" claim goes - yes, that is almost always the right call in this situation. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
I think you should be hitting either Scamp or Zona (with my preference on Zona unless he speaks up). JeeJee voted Scamp. Several times. Citi.zen voted me. Scamp voted Hobbes. Does anyone else have a second choice? If I missed a vote, it wasn't in the last 4ish pages or it wasn't bolded. So anyone feel free to correct me. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
| ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 08 2010 17:12 Foolishness wrote: If you kill me today, 1mafia/5 town. Goes to night, 1 mafia/4town. If you mislynch, 1 mafia/3 town, goes to night, 1 mafia/2town. Lynch ends the game Worst case scenario there's 3 more days (including today). Keep me alive and we mislynch, 1mafia/5town. Goes to night, mafia hit. Lets say my hit doesn't hit mafia. 1 mafia/3town. Lynch ends the game as if there's a mislynch it goes to night and mafia will kill someone and win. Worst case scenario there's 2 more days (including today). This is all assuming all hits go through, meaning there's no Jack/bulletproof/etc alive. I'd like to point out that I was the one pushing for the CompVig hit on Zona. I realize it probably gets me nowhere in anyone's eyes, but it is still a fact. With Zona flipping scum, as Korynne mentioned, citi.zen is cleared through the numbers. (I think the mafia would have to be insane to double up on 12 with the original setup.) On May 08 2010 16:56 Foolishness wrote: Game will end 1 day sooner if you keep me alive Does it? How? Let's assume you are innocent: 5 1 - lynch an innocent player other than you 4 1 - mafia miss, you miss 2 1 - lynch or lose 5 1 - lynch you 4 1 - mafia miss 3 1 - this is still lynch or lose. If the town mislynches here, we still lose. This is because we would be at 2 1 with a mafia hit incoming. That takes us down to 1 1 and mafia win if their numbers equal our own. Anyways, I have an analysis of you in the works. You have some questions I think you need to answer. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
| ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 08 2010 17:46 Foolishness wrote: I pointed it out above. Ends one day sooner. Your math is wrong here. Stick to your draft numbers, you know the thing you have been focusing on ALL GAME LONG. If your analysis has anything to do with the draft or number picking, I'm not going to bother to respond. You need arguments that aren't centered around it; my eyes are continually sore from your repetitive arguments about people picking numbers. I always thought you were more of a behavioral analysis guy, not an Ace "omg guys I found the ultimate plan to find the mafia if any of you disagree with me we kill you!" kinda guy. On May 08 2010 17:12 Foolishness wrote: If you kill me today, 1mafia/5 town. Goes to night, 1 mafia/4town. If you mislynch, 1 mafia/3 town, goes to night, 1 mafia/2town. Lynch ends the game Worst case scenario there's 3 more days (including today). Keep me alive and we mislynch, 1mafia/5town. Goes to night, mafia hit. Lets say my hit doesn't hit mafia. 1 mafia/3town. Lynch ends the game as if there's a mislynch it goes to night and mafia will kill someone and win. Worst case scenario there's 2 more days (including today). This is all assuming all hits go through, meaning there's no Jack/bulletproof/etc alive. Actually, there is a mistake in your analysis. Here is what you said: 5 1 - mislynch 4 1 - mafia kill an innocent 3 1 - mislynch 2 1 - lynch ends the game? I see a missing night hit. Town still only gets 2 lynches no matter who we lynch. If you think my biggest strength was ever behavioral analysis, you seriously need to reread mafia 4. However, I still found Zona, didn't I? Why have I been making those arguments on numbers? Well have they been wrong yet? Actually, they have been 100% correct so far. I said that the mafia likely didn't pick two of the same number. So far we have seen a [6][1], [8][1], and [12][1]. I said that after we found sidesprang and darth were mafia, JeeJee was cleared. Notice how he was pretty much instantly hit. On May 08 2010 17:58 Foolishness wrote: And oh, I also pushed for Zona to get modkilled. But I suppose the fact we both wanted him dead only strengthens your innocence and not mine. I'm just going to say now your "analysis" is probably going to include something along the lines of "See how Foolishness wanted to modkill Zona and Hobbes? He knew Zona was mia so he was just trying to fool us all into thinking he's innocent." Am I right? Am I right? Am I right? That was my devious plan from the beginning. Modkill my mafia buddy to prove me innocent. Not to mention modkill my PARDONER mafia buddy, who could save me from lynch. And now that I think about it, if I was mafia with him, we might actually have this game in the bag had he been alive. With a pardon, and 2 kills each night, I think we'd win no matter what (definitely need to double check the numbers, I'm too tired to do so). So yes, I gave up a possible auto win to modkill my mafia buddy to try to prove my innocence, and hope to avoid 2 days' worth of lynches. You found out my plan. GG. Pushing for Zona to be modkilled doesn't exactly get you anywhere. How would you look if you had been fighting against him getting modkilled? Especially if you had only been fighting against HIM and not Hobbes too? I don't think that really gets you anything either way. And a pardoner mafia buddy still can't pardon if he isn't around to do so. My analysis wasn't going to mention this at all, but thanks for highlighting that it does nothing for or against you. But don't you worry. I have a real analysis coming on you. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
| ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 08 2010 18:40 Korynne wrote: Seriously you two drop the whole like advocating modkill stuff as town/mafia. If I was mafia I would've definitely not made any noise about that since -1 town and -1 mafia is bad for mafia. Hobbes was under a bit of suspicion by town anyway so it's even less valuable for mafia (the modkill might have been worth it if hobbes was like 99% confirmed town and zona was under heavy heavy suspicion anyway). So nevermind all that, let's move on to the real stuff. Qatol, which two of everyone other than Foolishness do you find most suspicious? I personally propose we lynch Foolishness tomorrow and use our two other chances to hit some peeps. So everyone should vote for two of the following people to be lynched: Qatol (came up with the group plan so could've picked [6][1] to dupe us) Korynne (I do have the number thing going for me... for whatever that's worth) Falcynn (could've faked number, emphasizes lynching sidesprang for information but then says oh cool we caught mafia, does that mean everyone above him is probably telling the truth? Also slightly suspicious of BM, but we all were) OpZ (could've faked number, no idea what his thing with the BP claim`was, please explain) Foolishness I think we should lynch tomorrow if we feeel like he is mafia citi.zen seems pretty in the clear So basically everyone should pick two of the top 4 people they think are most suspicious. Mine would be Qatol and OpZ at the moment... I absolutely agree. I think we should lynch Foolishness tomorrow. I agree that we should decide who to lynch and who to CompVig right now because it increases our chances of getting mafia (2 1 is actually better for the town because a wrong vote for any player in 3 1 is still a town loss - 3 chances for a wrong vote vs. 2 chances). If I had to pick the two players I think are most suspicious right now on that list? I would pick OpZ and Korynne. I propose a different solution: We lynch OpZ. Tonight, we have Foolishness shoot himself. He hasn't contributed much all game, and I still think he is very suspicious. On top of that, he has a really powerful role, and is considered a "vet" as well, but is still alive this late in the game too. If he is innocent, I believe he will be useful to the last mafia as a player of confusing alignment. I have a concern with all of this though: what makes you think that Falcynn will vote? I'm nervous he will miss the vote after missing both the day 1 and day 3 lynch voting. I'm hoping he will show up to resolve those fears. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
| ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
| ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
| ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 08 2010 19:07 Foolishness wrote: After being so incredibly retarded I'm almost okay with shooting myself right now. Honestly I'm probably too tired so I'm just going to wait until I calm down and sleep and then discuss it. REMEMBER DONT READ PAGE 44 GUYS! I'm agreed here. I think I'm going to sleep on this before saying anything else. I'd like to hear what citi.zen has to say as well. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 09 2010 01:36 ~OpZ~ wrote: You use my idea, AND PUSH FOR MY LYNCH. Wow...Are you fucking kidding me? My BP idea? Well hello, we can verify BP! Have foolishness HIT him. Mafia can't claim it and be legit unless the mafia got it. I think it would be interesting to see because the role is actually pretty useless for mafia (SK bullets smack through it). That was my idea. Not like the mafia had truly to fear the comp vig...Easy kill on him. That was why I said BP should claim. It makes wonderful sense to me. Foolishness can verify BP. Yes we can verify BP. I'll even assume that the BP is innocent (though we have no reason to believe that - mafia could have taken the role to deny it from the town). 3 issues: 1. Why should we think there even is one? 2. If we DO shoot the BP does it help us? It results in a 3 townies 1 mafia end game which is still lynch or lose. The town could follow the BP's selection about who is mafia, but that's still a 1 in 3 chance of hitting red unless the BP has a strong read. 3. What if the last mafia has the Jack of All Trades role? We still haven't seen that role show up, and we definitely haven't seen it use its night kill ability unless it was blocked and nobody claimed (unlikely). If that last player is Jack, we may have to win this with that night hit that you want to use on the bulletproof. I'd just rather take 3/2 shots at winning this instead of 2/1 (lynch, compvig hit, lynch(if no jack)) Also, BP may still be able to soak the Jack hit. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 08 2010 23:29 citi.zen wrote: LOL @ foolish(ness). So... with Zona red I am more inclined to think Qatol is town. Not sure who I like as red and on weekends I always have less time. Opz seems like a good candidate, and am OK lynching foolishness too. We decided that the final lynch or lose situation is slightly easier if we don't kill Foolishness now. You are probably taking the mafia hit tonight (because of your numbers), so please pick all 3 hits you want to see done. That leaves 4 players for our first 2 hits: Korynne, OpZ, Falcynn, and myself. If you want to take me off the list too, that leaves Korynne, OpZ, and Falcynn. Please pick 2 of them. Then add Foolishness to the list and pick 1 more player. Apparently Foolishness can't shoot himself. Unfortunate. That said, the two I would like to see take a hit are Korynne and OpZ. Sorry OpZ, I know we are using you a bit. However, do you see what kind of situation we are placed in? You, Korynne, and Falcynn will likely each push for the other 2 to die right now. That leaves the other 3 of us to figure out who to lynch/CompVig. I just don't see Falcynn being able to make the night hit on JeeJee. (I checked his posts and basically all of his posts in the last week have either been here or in a blog about his film. I think his activity levels are at least the same on TL as they are here.) That leaves me with Korynne and OpZ. I'm okay with dealing with you two in either order. However, I'm thinking I want OpZ to go first because of Korynne's CompVig claim. Yes, I realize that OpZ claimed he also went for it and missed, but Korynne claimed first. I think it is more likely that she does not have a role. Meanwhile, with OpZ's newfound interest in the BP role, I think there is a possibility that he has said role. If we want to kill the two, we need to lynch him and shoot her. It can't be the other way around. The only reason I can see for going after Falcynn is in the hopes that he has the Jack role. So I guess I'm advocating this order: OpZ, Korynne, Foolishness. Thoughts citi.zen? Foolishness? | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 09 2010 06:20 citi.zen wrote: ## vote OpZ## Could you contribute more on secondary suspects at some point please? It doesn't have to be now, but it has to be before the next day post. Oh, and ##vote OpZ## | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 09 2010 11:02 ~OpZ~ wrote: two townies = Vanilla townies. -_- Foolishness, if you're compulsive vig, we can just use you as our lynch. Honestly, this was gives us more time, because no body factored in NO LYNCH as an option for us to use. iirc at least. Last few pages have been confusing as hell. So lets just give ourselves another 12 hours to decide on who to kill. (Been at work, not inactive. Worked 1 -9 EST) No lynch gives the mafia more of a chance to whittle us down and gives us less of a shot at winning this. If we give the mafia more chances to shoot townies, that necessarily gives the town less chances to try to hit the mafia. The mafia will NEVER hit himself. Our shots at least have a CHANCE at hitting the mafia. 5 1 - no lynch 5 1 - mafia hits an innocent, town hits an innocent 3 1 - we get 1 more shot to win this. We can lynch here, we can use the CompVig hit, we can lynch the next day (this is probably the smartest choice because 2 vs. 1 is easier for the town than 3 vs. 1). That is still only 2 kills for the town. I'd rather have the town take 3 shots at winning this. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
| ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 09 2010 11:33 citi.zen wrote: I don't know Qatol - if you were really the great town scum-hunter you would have been hit instead of JeeJee last night. After all, JeeJee had gone after Scamp and seemed pretty harmless. Now you are suggesting the mafia will hit me next, because of the all powerful "numbers theory". Then you want to kill Foolishness. So you'd be left with people who don't question you, in a nice end game you can control. Maybe you are town aligned, and you really think the mafia would never think their number selection would be analyzed. Maybe your plan is good. Maybe we should follow it. I am ok with that - right after you flip green. ##Vote Qatol## I'm sorry you feel that way. Why would I have been hit last night? JeeJee was basically confirmed innocent already. You have been trying to get me lynched for 2 game days now. Why should the mafia hit someone when the town will waste a lynch on them on the next day anyways? If it had really been my plan to get rid of people who question me, don't you think I would have offed you sooner? I don't understand how you think I'm playing such a deep game; I guess I am the most amazing player to ever play this game for me to have had the foresight to see this endgame coming. I'll just take your attitude as a compliment. Whatever. I don't believe this change in voting matters anyways. We already reached majority. Unless Ace has changed his voting policy from WAW, your change in vote doesn't change anything. You can try to get me CompVigi'd at night if you wish, but I guarantee to you that it will be a waste. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
| ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
I will be on an airplane for most of the day tomorrow, so don't expect to see much of me around here. I'll check in in the morning just to see the situation and vote for the CompVig if necessary. But it is unlikely that I will be back in time for the day post. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
So ## CompVig Falcynn## If citi.zen has a compelling reason to vote for Korynne instead, I'm okay with going for that. Sorry, I'm just running out of time today. I MIGHT be back in time for the day post (I should be back sometime between midnight and 1am EST) but I don't want to gamble with it. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
| ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
I think I personally messed up the worst in the early/mid game (like after I got sick and the day or so after I came back from it). Unacceptably poor play during that time frame, and no wonder the mafia decided to keep me alive as a distraction to the town. Town caught SOOOO many breaks this game. Radfield was acting so pro-town the only way I had even a little shot at getting him was through the numbers (because mafia picked 6 1, 8 1, 12 1 - 10 1 makes sense as a mafia number). We are really lucky the mafia used their Day Vigi hit on him. Zona's modkill was big too, though we lost Hobbes who was just as important to the town. JeeJee was totally vouching for him, so he was pretty low on the suspect list. Either way, it was fun. I probably won't play again for a while (defending myself for that long was just exhausting and totally sapped my will to play - that post to citi.zen about being pissed off was 100% serious) but it will fun to see a few of the players from this game develop. There were a few players who played very well. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 11 2010 13:46 Ace wrote: Masons are important in all setups. The ability to talk at night lets you get a read on players away from the thread and probe with no interference allowing you to form circles. I guess it depends on the Mason's own ability to get information but a good Mason is dangerous if Town aligned. I didn't give the town the other version of Mason's that get to choose 1 player to Mason to permanently during the game and getting their alignment because I thought that would be too broken. I seriously considered taking this role before I decided to control the copycat role. Private communication is VERY strong/important in these kinds of games. Oh and thanks Ace and Versatile for hosting this game. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 11 2010 13:55 Ace wrote: Don't worry, your #s theory was huge. When I read it I was like Mafia still have have the game won, but as the days went by and they kept letting it go along with other shots I started laughing at the irony of them dying because they got the picks they wanted. Mid-Late game wasn't that bad because since town got to breeze early game with no pressure it became a battle of numbers (which sucks for scum). Yeah we basically had it when Zona died. There was just nothing the mafia could do to come back from that. 3 shots to kill 1 mafia with that few players left? Pretty much a lost cause for the mafia. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
That being said, I'm VERY happy he hit me instead of citi.zen. I would have voted Korynne. (The idea was I was trying to make Foolishness and Korynne absolutely CERTAIN which way I would vote. Then if I died, my mafia pick was correct. If the mafia let me live, it was so they could survive the lynch. Definitely a risk, but there were reasons in my mind to vote for each of them.) Obviously, I had total faith in my numbers theory, so if citi.zen was alive, I would have lynched the other one no matter what. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 11 2010 14:01 Ace wrote: @Foolishness: I had this weird argument in my head that town could have been screwed by. Something about "why isn't Foolisness dead yet if he's an innocent CV?" Which means one of the Scum isn't scared to get shot by accident, which means there's a Scum Bulletproof which means Falcynn/Korynne/Qatol/Citizen is lying about having no role. I thought about that too. However, I had a different reason for deciding it was still possible: sheer KP. We were totally missing with our CompVig hits (notice: we didn't hit red with that once all game). The mafia like us whittling down the town quickly because mafia just don't win super long games without someone seriously screwing up. I figured the mafia were just gambling that we would continue to miss with the hit if Foolishness was innocent, though it DID point towards Foolishness being mafia. The only other reason I could think of was that they were worried that he had a medic on him, but that one seemed like a long shot. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 11 2010 14:00 Foolishness wrote: I recall you saying about a month ago that you were planning on hosting a TL mafia game after you were done with finals. Surely Qatol is not a man to go back on his word eh?  Well blame d3/Korynne and Caller for hosting in my time window. Also, my summer school starts on the 18th when I thought it wouldn't start until June. I would only be able to host if the signups closed sometime around the end of the week/ the start of next week because the setup would take a while (I'm planning on doing a clues game the next time I host but those take a decent amount of work on the front end to figure out). | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 11 2010 14:44 citi.zen wrote: Yup, I did not roleclaim precisely because I though ambiguity would keep the mafia guessing a bit longer. In truth, I was an idiot and never submitted any picks to Ace. I didn't read the rules, instead assuming everyone got a role and I'd just get what's left from the role list. Interesting things happen when you put pressure on people: some make mistakes, others are very eager to take sides, etc. In general lively conversation is good, and I've never been afraid to stir things up a bit. Your plans always seemed like a mix of genius with something evil, so figured I'd start with you! And Radfield - good job man. Up to that medic protection claim you did better than anyone. Yeah but there is a point where pretty much anyone will slip up at least a little. You were nitpicking pretty small stuff for literally days on end. I was playing as much pro-town as I possibly could and you were still finding little things to yell at me about. On top of that, it felt to me like you were barely reading what I was posting. I agree that conversations are a good thing, but I didn't like your method for provoking it very much. I agree that there were totally loopholes in my plans that I could have been exploiting (like if I were mafia, the numbers theory could have been used to help the mafia instead of hurting them), but I put myself into the spotlight far too readily and I'd like to think I didn't really break down too much. After a while, you are just derailing the thread. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 11 2010 15:02 citi.zen wrote: Agreed - when you are offering a lot it's impossible not to slip here and there. Then again, with good players, these are exactly the sort of things you need to watch out for. You, Ace, Incognito, must always seem pro-town, even if you are red - you chose the way of the Jedi. Someone like L or Caller use the dark side of the force and play a different style altogether - a dose of nonsense is par for the course. On my side though, a big problem this time around was that I did not have enough time to carefully build my arguments / think the big picture through, so I can see how it was frustrating arguing with me. Sorry for that. Hey whatever. You saw that you were being irrational soon enough that we could still win it and just before I gave up and let the town kill me to shut you up. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 11 2010 15:06 johnnyspazz wrote: i wish i had read the rules and picked a cool role You just needed to contribute more. I was so suspicious of you because you said you had been getting advice from Incognito and then you seemed to be just lurking/agreeing with others and not really posting original thoughts at all. Even if you die for it, at least then the town can go back and try to see if you were onto anything. Oh and don't post in other threads and not this one. Especially not other mafia games. It was just screaming "lurking mafia" to me. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
Also, I suggest Mad Hatter being included in the role list. It is too awesome of a role to be left out. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 11 2010 15:02 citi.zen wrote: Agreed - when you are offering a lot it's impossible not to slip here and there. Then again, with good players, these are exactly the sort of things you need to watch out for. You, Ace, Incognito, must always seem pro-town, even if you are red - you chose the way of the Jedi. Someone like L or Caller use the dark side of the force and play a different style altogether - a dose of nonsense is par for the course. On my side though, a big problem this time around was that I did not have enough time to carefully build my arguments / think the big picture through, so I can see how it was frustrating arguing with me. Sorry for that. Oh speaking of which, what style exactly did you think was Qatol-like? You kept accusing me of not acting like myself. (Btw, that is the hardest accusation in the WORLD to refute. How do you prove that you are playing like yourself?) | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 11 2010 16:34 Ace wrote: Well I think not PMing people was good in retrospect. If you don't read the thread to see how the game works why should I hold your hand? Because it makes the problem that some town players are really bad about keeping track of the thread even worse. Now not only are they screwing up their side by being generally useless in the thread, but they have nothing to offer even from blue roles because they didn't read the thread early on. Also, there seem to have been quite a lot of people confused this game. Caller, citi.zen, Amnesia, Falcynn messed it up; OpZ and Scamp almost messed it up. That's kinda a big deal for the town. 1/3 of our players didn't even have a shot at a role and it was almost closer to half. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 11 2010 17:03 Ace wrote: I mean looking at the title of the game that should have been an obvious clue. Then you see the whole deal about draft order...what else would people be doing in a draft? :D I know it sucks that a lot of the town aligned players didn't read the game but it's unfair for those that took the time to read the thread. There was even discussion about picks for 24 hours after order was revealed so not reading the thread isn't a valid excuse. Everyone had at least 48 hours to get it right. Yeah I guess you're right. You even mentioned it again in the role PM. Not that much more you could have done. I think I'm just grumpy that so many people still managed to screw it up or at least come close. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 11 2010 18:21 DarthThienAn wrote: Bottom line, I think if you're going to play, you should at least read the thread regularly >_>. After a line like that, you are never going to get away with lurking in these games ever again. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 11 2010 20:21 citi.zen wrote: I just meant that I did not expect you to make what I thought were a good deal of mistakes. Starting with openly telling people what roles to choose. Perhaps these were not mistakes in your view, but to me they were not exactly pro-town moves either. Ace, L and others seem to agree. The invention conversations were another issue. It just seemed like you were trying to control the flow of the game but doing so in a way which could be consistent with what the mafia wanted. So the "style" comment was mostly about consistency and what I thought were mistakes. I see. Btw people are a bit more split on the controlling the first few roles than you might think. Incognito is telling me that he would have done what I did too. The only role I definitely shouldn't have done anything about was telling Scamp to take medic. That was a mistake. I still think that if we hadn't controlled CompVig the way we did, it would have come back to bite us, especially since the mafia got it. Regardless, I guess I can see what you were trying to say. On May 11 2010 19:01 DarthThienAn wrote: I already admitted I had been lurking in this past game ^^. Yeah that's what I mean. You made that statement. People will just bring it up again out of nowhere and totally hose you with it in the future if you decide to lurk ever again. Either way, well played. You were definitely one of the better players that I didn't know anything about going into this game. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
| ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 12 2010 04:18 citi.zen wrote: I thought Foolishness had the attitude too - e.g. the whaa outsmarted post. Yeah he definitely did. But he always acts like that. That post was nothing new from him. I was more surprised that I was being accused of having a serious attitude. Worse, it seemed to be a way for the mafia to try and chip away at my persuasiveness. So could anyone give me the breakdown so I can try to work on it? EDIT: People seem to be confused about what I'm talking about, so I'll add in at least the ones referring to it from the archive that I can find. (Sorry I'm being a bit selfish with this here, but I'd really like to try and learn from my mistakes. If anyone else wants input on how they played this game, I'm certainly willing to try and help.) + Show Spoiler + On May 06 2010 08:43 Bill Murray wrote: i am much more suspicious of you than scamp, and i am not suspicious of you at all really. the only reason i'm suspicious of him at all is from his stance towards sidesprang. the only reason i am suspicious of you at all is because of your attitude. On May 05 2010 11:55 Foolishness wrote: Yeah, after thinking about it, I don't think there's any reason to lie about your numbers, especially now that the draft's far over and we kinda have an idea of who's what. I can be sympathetic of you being tired of being ignored. However first day you were here early, then you just disappeared for a long while, which didn't help your cause (yeah I know you were sick, but if you hadn't been and had been around during this time we'd be in a much different position about you methinks). And contrary, I haven't dismissed any of your posts, more of I'm questioning your attitude. I'm not persuaded because it seems to me you're taking up a BM attitude here: "guys, it's obvious I'm greener than grass, you should listen to me". Frankly, it's not obvious to us (although your constant activity right now helps). That's why I kept mentioning of thinking things from everyone's perspective, and to think of all possibilities, however ridiculous. As for Jspazzz, I will agree on your point that he is filler-posting and has yet to make a contribution of his own. Looking through past games quickly, I'd say he's about as active as during BM's game (a little less maybe) and about as active as during flamewheel's game. Both times he was green. I'll need to look through more games for a better consensus on that. If nobody has any better idea on who the CompVig should kill then we should go with that, especially if Amnesia gets modkilled. On May 02 2010 05:08 Zona wrote: I'm glad someone's stepping up with the first proposals for the town. Yet once again, in yet another game, I have to take issues with the blind spots in the plan, as well as the "I declare it, thus it must be so" tone and mindset. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 12 2010 09:58 Scamp wrote: Guess I'll add that to my record of "game changing saves" as a medic, though I dunno if I really want to. Hey 5 saves in 3 games as medic is still nothing to sneeze at. I just wish you had contributed more in the thread this game. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 12 2010 14:44 Scamp wrote: That may not have been a good thing. I was pretty off this game in terms of my deductions and suspicions. Why didn't you post more of your logic? Were you just trying not to stand out? You mentioned a few people you were suspicious of (myself and Falcynn), but you didn't really do much in the way of analysis or posting your reasoning. | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 12 2010 14:58 Scamp wrote: I usually don't like to join in unless I have something new to bring to the table. I didn't really have solid evidence on some of my suspicions, and I really liked the conversation you and Radfield were bringing to the table. So I figured my options were to say "I agree," derail it for no good reason for my own suspicions, or watch and contribute strongly later. I see. I guess it made sense. I was just surprised because you made a comment about a suspect list of myself and Falcynn but then didn't really do much to push your suspects. I guess you just didn't feel you had a strong enough case? | ||
|
Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On May 12 2010 07:46 Radfield wrote: Qatol, I didn't find much attitude in your posts. I thought you played really well in fact. The only attitude in this game was the occasional aggressive tone from Opz and Foolishness. I think if there is a Mad Hatter it should definitely still have 2 bombs. Otherwise it's just plain worse then the Meth Man. I was kinda looking forward to picking Meth Man next game if I was high on the draft pick. Actually, the hatter has one more feature Meth Man doesn't have: if he happens to be lynched, the bomb still goes off. I think the hatter should have 2 bombs too, but I just thought I'd point it out. And thanks for the compliment on my play. I'm looking forward to seeing how you play in future games. | ||
| ||
