EPTPick Your Power Mafia!
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
1. Bill Murray - [1] [1] ? confirmation needed 2. "L"- [1][?] ? confirmation needed 3. Foolishness [1][?] ? confirmation needed 4. Korynne [1][5] 5. Falcynn 6. [NyC]HoBbes - [4] [1] 7. ~Opz~ 8. d3_crescentia - [4][14] 9. Caller 10. sidesprang 11. Qatol - [6] [1] 12. JeeJee 13. DarthThienAn [8][1] 14. johnnyspazz 15. Amnesia 16. Zona 17. citi.zen - [12] [3] 18. Radfield - [10][1] 19. Scamp - presumably [10][1] He's the updated draft order, as far as I can tell - I picked [8][1]. Falcynn must have either gotten "[1][5+] or [4][1] with Hobbes. Opzz could have either gone for [4][1] or [4][<14]. Either way, he picked [4]. Caller/sidesprang must have picked between [4][15+] and [6][1]. JeeJee could have gotten [6][?] or [8][1] (stuck with me) johnnyspazz could have been [8][1] or [8][?] as well. Amnesia and Zona got anywhere from [8][] to [12][]. Radfield's numbers make NO sense to me ([10][1]). Not pointing the figure I'm just really confused about how the draft order worked. If everyone got duped, then how is [10] after [12]? We really need our top players to announce their numbers - it's possible that BM dodged a dupe and that's why he's on top. But that still doesn't explain why Radfield is behind citi.zen. Scamp's number would help as well. | ||
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
And I just realized that BM implied that he picked some random crazy number that was unique. On May 01 2010 19:37 Bill Murray wrote: i don't know if i will take inventor, as I can't trust anyone (they have to give their gifts to someone) Uhh... >.> | ||
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
On May 02 2010 03:23 Korynne wrote: Uh, considering BM said he picked some "crazy high numba" the only way L would be unique is if he picked a "craaaay-zay craaaay-zay high numba". It could happen =p, no? As long as BM didn't pick 20, there's a chance that L was unique. Else, he won the roll with Foolishness | ||
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
On May 02 2010 04:25 Qatol wrote: Lots of stuff to comment about: Bill, why are you withholding your number? As I've already explained, your number cannot hurt the town or the SK. It can only hurt the mafia. If you're really green, you would rather that you have the role Inventor than anyone else have it. If you don't want your targets to have anything good, give them something like a gun without bullets. If you actually want to help the side you just claimed for, you will give out veteran vests or alignment check kits because they don't help the mafia but they help the town. Then it doesn't matter who you gave your inventions to. Nothing else helps the town as much as taking that role. Don't try to out think this, Bill. Just think through the logic of the stuff I have already presented. Easily compensated for. First of all, it hands us a mafia with one of these 3 roles. That is a big hit for the mafia. Second of all, just consider taking one of them yourself (preference for the earlier ones in the list of 3). Just leave the threat out there that the "best" roles may not fall down to the mafia where they want to take them. Do not tell us until after the roles are given out. In fact, consider rethinking your choice if you don't trust Bill, L's replacement, or Foolishness. That should account for your discrepancy. I'll post an updated list at the end of this post. Agreed. The numbers probably won't help us in the short run (unless the mafia lie and we catch them), but in the long run, it is a way to find mafia and innocents logically (meaning anyone can do it and the mafia can't argue their way out of it). Thanks for the vote of confidence. You had better pick roleblocker. Is there a good argument why we shouldn't? I haven't seen one so far. Not really. Compulsive Vigilante gets to hit every night. Jack gets 1 chance to use the Vigilante role. For the mafia, Investigate (gives alignment) is only useful for finding the SK, talk just isn't that strong except in the hands of very specific people, and Protect doesn't help the mafia much. Shoot is good. Remember, the Jack only gets 1 shot with each role. I'm honestly more worried about Day Vigilante (which can't be blocked). + Show Spoiler [Updated number list  +1. Bill Murray - high number (unique?) - hasn't completely claimed 2. L (or replacement when he/she gets access) - unique number or [1] [1] - hasn't claimed 3. Foolishness - [1] [1] 4. Korynne - [1] [5] 5. Falcynn [1] [5-20] or [4] [1] - hasn't claimed 6. [NyC]HoBbes - [4] [1] 7. ~Opz~ - [4] [1-14] - hasn't claimed 8. d3_crescentia - [4] [14] 9. Caller - [4] [14-20] or [6] [1] - hasn't claimed 10. sidesprang - [6] [1] 11. Qatol - [6] [1] 12. JeeJee - [6] [1-20] or [8] [1] - hasn't claimed 13. DarthThienAn - [8] [1] 14. johnnyspazz - [8] [4] 15. Amnesia [8] [4-20] or [10] [1] - hasn't claimed 16. Radfield - [10] [1] 17. Scamp - [10] [1-20] - hasn't claimed 18. Zona - [12] [1-3] - hasn't claimed 19. citi.zen - [12] [3] If you haven't claimed, you are a suspect. I expect the mafia to try and hold out as long as possible to give them flexibility about lying (just in case their number was tripled up). Claim your numbers! Ah, that does explain it. I looked at Ace's post backwards and took the wrong numbers as the right ones. @the argument against your plan, I haven't seen one, but I've seen a reluctance from BM / slight reluctance (or something) from Foolishness. Still nothing from L / his replacement. + Show Spoiler [ My updated number list:] + 1. Bill Murray - high number (unique?) - hasn't completely claimed 2. L/replacement - unique number or [1] [1] - hasn't claimed 3. Foolishness - [1] [1] 4. Korynne - [1] [5] 5. Falcynn [1] [5-20] or [4] [1] - hasn't claimed 6. [NyC]HoBbes - [4] [1] 7. ~Opz~ - [4] [1-14] - hasn't claimed 8. d3_crescentia - [4] [14] 9. Caller - [6] [1] 10. sidesprang - [6] [1] 11. Qatol - [6] [1] 12. JeeJee - [6] [1-20] or [8] [1] - hasn't claimed 13. DarthThienAn - [8] [1] 14. johnnyspazz - [8] [4] 15. Amnesia [8] [4-20] or [10] [1] - hasn't claimed 16. Radfield - [10] [1] 17. Scamp - [10] [1-20] - hasn't claimed 18. Zona - [12] [1-3] - hasn't claimed 19. citi.zen - [12] [3] On May 02 2010 04:40 Korynne wrote: I don't know. But if any of the first two are mafia we're pretty screwed with this plan. If I was mafia I'd rather let BM or L die, and then have double kill power for the rest of the nights. BM can only hide for 1 night if he isn't the inventor. L can hide for 2 since vigi can't kill first night. Then next night we go oh shi--- mafia killed two people at night. And we can't even prove anything for sure, like if L takes Jack of all Trades, he can hide for 3 nights, or if town votes for the vigi hit to be on a townie during the night there's no reason not to just go ahead and do it. And then if we get paranoid of his role, he might've picked meth man instead and we all go omg we gotta check him and boom, all our investigators are dead (so let's please at least coordinate the rolechecking guys). So I'd say BM's role is pretty safe, in terms of he's outed the second day if he's not inventor. L's is the one I'm worried about, if he is mafia then he can pick meth man or jack of all trades and then when he finally gets outed like 3rd or 4th day then they have already easily secured the double lynch. Foolishness' role is pretty safe for town too, in terms of well if he tries to roleblock he gets killed. Why did you choose to place the compulsive vigilante role as second, Qatol? Also what are your thoughts on having somebody closer to the back of the draft claim copy cat? This way we know if mafia decides to steal it, and if they do we offer them up some "useless" role. I would suggest someone taking the Floridian at the end, just so we can lynch that person if copy cat is taken. Floridian being useless This way if copy cat is not mafia, then mafia will have to kill someone less significant the first night. If copy cat was mafia, it would still be pretty hard for them to do anything since town is watching them. So if compulsive vigilante dies first night, then we just treat copy cat as him instead. So really I see no drawbacks to this idea. Now to pick a copy cat, and to pick the Floridian. I suggest the following format: We want them to be closer to the back of the line, since we're wasting ability to get good KP/investigative roles if we put them in the front. So I suggest picking from 16 onwards. So I select: 18. Zona to be the Floridian. 17. Scamp to be the copy cat. Since both these roles are heavily controlled by town (and the Floridian is pretty much "useless") it wouldn't make sense for me to give these roles to my partners if I was scum, since Floridian pretty much kills one of 4 mafia roles, and the copy cat is controlled by town like the first couple roles. Any issues with this? I don't like the idea of the copycat/Floridian trade... we're sacrificing a player to give a mafia a crappy role, and that's only if they go for copycat. It doesn't tell us who the mafia is =[. Doing this means we 1st day lynch whoever gets the Floridian power, so we'd already be down a player... which is bad, yes? | ||
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
On May 02 2010 05:08 Zona wrote: I'm glad someone's stepping up with the first proposals for the town. Yet once again, in yet another game, I have to take issues with the blind spots in the plan, as well as the "I declare it, thus it must be so" tone and mindset. I think it's clear to everyone that Inventor and Compulsive Vigilante are by far the most powerful and influential roles in the game, so it's no surprise when you mention them, but I find it curious you lump the roleblocker with them. The roleblocker is a very weak role for town, and while it can be useful for mafia, there are far better picks for them. The only critical situation where I see mafia really wanting the roleblocker is to counter a vocal pro-town bulletproof player, as they will have no other way to get rid of them. It's true that the roleblocker can shut down a town power role, even perhaps the compulsive vig or inventor, but don't overestimate the importance of having such roles active for the town. A compulsive town vig will likely hit a lot of town anyways, and depending on which plan the town inventor follows (night-protect vests, investigate kits, etc), it's similar to a medic, or a cop. To be honest a town inventor might get more mileage out of more wild ideas than the ones presented so far. Still, this is just a relatively minor issue I have with your plan. More importantly is the lack of focus on town grabbing powers that are important to town success. Particularly, investigative roles (tracker, alignment cop) that are very important for town. Now you mention that these are "very important" in your post but then ask that those near the bottom try to get them? Shouldn't players in the middle or even higher up aim to snag these? Your proposal seems focused on denying powers to mafia, which is a good thing. But that's only HALF the story, and missing the important other half: grabbing essential powers for the town. Without investigative roles on the town's side, the town's chances of winning are very low. When I was digging through statistics of played games when trying to ensure that the balance in Micro-MAFIA was as best as it could be - I found something very striking. In the absense of cops, even a 5:1 ratio of town to mafia was shown to be mafia favored. And it's striking how many games are lost for town when the cop dies early on. This showed me that investigative powers are core to a town's success. In fact, given the unknown sanity on the alignment cop - the tracker is likely the most powerful investigative role in the game. This is really why I don't like how you list roleblocker as the third thing for town to grab - when tracker and alignment cop are far more important for town members high up in the draft order to choose. It's all good to deny the mafia strong powers - I agree this is important. But if town gets denied the investigative powers, it will be very difficult to identify the right targets to lynch, unless you are banking on scum making mistakes. But I'll reiterate - in the absense of cops, even a 5:1 ratio of town to mafia was found to be mafia favored. Town needs the investigative powers. Getting investigative powers is as important, if not moreso, than denying mafia killing powers. So focusing on the latter misses at least half of the picture. Finally, I really dislike how you make a declaration as if your proposal is the only one to be followed, and make statements as extreme as "we will immediately lynch you" if someone steps out of line - especially when your plan is flawed. As well, if the top draft order people actually do listen to you, then they've basically claimed their role day 1, making it a lot easier for the mafia to take steps to mitigate their power. A major part of the mafia's game plan is to identify which players have the power roles which are a threat to them - your plan does that for them. I'd rather players make their picks in secret, and only claim when necessary. This keeps the mafia guessing as to who has what power, and who is really a threat to them. Summary and a proposed alternative: Qatol's plan focuses mainly on denying mafia powers (the good part) and misses the boat on grabbing essential town powers, such as investigative roles (the bad part). While he does mention the "importance" of various roles to the town, the way he asks players to pick does not put any real emphasis on getting such roles. Also, he wants certain players to pick certain roles - so if his plan is followed, it's clear to the mafia who owns what powers. Alternative, better proposal: Follow Qatol's emphasis on the compulsive vig and inventor roles, but not the roleblocker. Include the tracker and alignment cop in the "group of important roles". Do not follow Qatol's plan of person x in the draft order picks role y. Instead, if you are a town player high in the draft order, go for one of these, but don't make it obvious which one you have, so it's harder for mafia to arrange their plans on how to deal with these powers. While it's a risk that certain players in the draft order won't get their pick if not all the picks are laid out beforehand, that risk applies to mafia too. If town members DID in fact follow the plan and picked the role that they were told to, mafia can also pick roles without fear of being bumped into vanilla. A few good points in here - but Roleblocker is still relatively important. The goal of getting Roleblocker early is to deny it from the mafia so that they can't roleblock our doctors, our cops, etc. Tracker is an interesting role since I've never seen it before - it does have a lot of potential though, as the chance of tailing a mafia is pretty high. So if the tracker's targets visits the dead person the next day, then we know who the mafia is. Could we arrange the first 4 to choose between these 4 roles then maybe? I had another role in mind that would be good but can't remember which one it was t.t | ||
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
On May 02 2010 05:58 Korynne wrote: Darth: We're sacrificing 1 person out of 15 to make 1 person out of 4 useless for mafia. Sounds pretty good to me I don't know about you... We only lynch the Floridian if whoever was supposed to get copy cat didn't manage to get it due to mafia. (Town should not be retarded and take the role of copy cat if you're not designated to take it. If mafia steals it then they're automatically turned into a Floridian, which is very easily under the town's eyes because all we have to do is remember it requires n-1 to lynch) I already said, if copy cat isn't claimed by mafia, then we proceed as usual. We're probably not going to lynch someone the first day, so THIS DETERS THE MAFIA FROM SHOOTING IMPORTANT ROLES FIRST NIGHT because the copy cat will just get the same role and listen to town and continue the work. The copy cat is essentially having two "lives" for a role, to prevent mafia from offing the compulsive vigilant and inventor on the first nights, because then we're just going to have another one. Someone at the end of the list isn't likely to get a good role anyway, so picking Floridian is more useful than being townie, because it's the first power role kill that applies to the copy cat. Mafia would be retarded to pick Floridian so we don't have to be worried about mafia trying to do this. There's only 4 mafia, with vigilant and cops and whatever missing a townie isn't all that important if that means making one of the mafia useless in terms of roles. So can we please consolidate our plans? Right now we're ambiguous on how many people in the front should consolidate roles. Also people I've mentioned haven't confirmed whether they will take Floridian and Copy Cat. If they don't post in this thread to by like 1 hour before roles are due, will you take Copy Cat Qatol? Everyone: Can you post your input on both of these points in a post? This way we can finalize the plans for the front and the copy cat/floridian. I think this one is very important. I guess that makes sense... I feel like outside the inventor and compulsive vig, none of these roles are drastically game changing, so that's why I wanted to play it more like a normal mafia game, but having ONE solid plan is better than disagreement. | ||
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
On May 02 2010 06:14 Korynne wrote: I think we should have Jack claim too perhaps? I just realized my most recent plan doesn't work because Jack could screw things up. That seems too complicated, scratch my last idea probably. xD How does the Jack screw things up? | ||
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
On May 02 2010 07:48 Radfield wrote: This is a great discussion everyone, but I feel like we need to narrow down our focus for now. I think that by far the most important thing we need to be able to do is keep tabs on the compulsive vig and the inventor. Both of these roles double the mafia KP. We need to ensure that regardless of whether they fall into mafia or town hands, we know who has them, and we control them. For this reason I think the first two people NEED to take them. First inventor, then Compulsive Vig(or vice versa, but it was already mentioned this way). That means BM and L's replacement, or foolishness if L is not replaced. What we cannot have happen is that the mafia land either of these roles, and we don't know who they are. Bill Murray, regardless if you ever even use the inventor role, you need to take it simply to keep it out of mafia hands. To do otherwise would be very anti-town. We will likely have two docs, so they can protect you from a mafia hit while you invent pro-town equipment and dole it out. But even if you get killed, you STILL keep the inventor role out of mafia hands, which is a huge boost for the town. If anyone has any argument against this please speak up. Just to be clear, to have either of those high KP roles in unknown mafia hands would be very painful for the town. Agree with this. Priority should be those two... and our first two on the draft should confirm their acceptance of this plan? | ||
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
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DarthThienAn
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I wish BM was more straightforward about things, but I guess this is his playing style... Is there anyone who went for inventor or day vigi, but also, do we WANT to figure out who got what roles? Especially with the copycat potentially in mafia hands, we might want to leave the roles out of this, at least until day 2 or something. Hopefully the mafia pick up something bad during the night. Medics should obviously cover people from the top 4 or 5, people who might have good roles. Role/Alignment Checks should go up on suspicious people. Hopefully we'll have a better idea of who to lynch tomorrow. In response to Qatol's analysis: All of those players are pretty inactive so far, but to me Amnesia sticks out because he hasn't posted ANYTHING relevant to the game "Let us begin!" which is pretty bad in my opinion, although that could be the infamous TL inactivity bug going around. Inactivity is not scummy, but it's definitely not pro-town t.t. | ||
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
This game, we have variants of our Cop/Doctors, which means we might not be able to rely on them as much. Maybe the JOAT should consider using his alignment check tonight? The earlier we get information, the better. | ||
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
On May 03 2010 01:17 Scamp wrote: I, for one, am not afraid of a mafia copycat. If we get a mafia with a day 1 lynch then they had the role anyway. And even if we lose an exceptionally powerful role we'll still know where it is. I think it might be best to push for BM or Foolish right away, the only problem is whether or not I trust Korynne. Right now I'm not sure. That's a pretty big if imo. This is only my second game on TL, but we were pretty bad at taking out mafia last game, especially with no information to go on. How do you propose we get a mafia on a day 1 lynch? Also, if the mafia copycat picks up a good role, we don't know who the copycat is - how does that mean that we'll know where it is? I think if I were SK I might just shoot myself a few times just for fun. +1 on this though ^^ | ||
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
If you're mafia and comp vigi, how is killing you bad? Killing you immediately might be bad, but by day 2, presuming a power role has been either lynched or hit at night, killing you would be win/win. Assuming Qatol isn't lying, yes, we should wait on lynching BM/Foolishness. You're in the same boat as them atm. Since this all banks on whether you + Qatol are lying or not, I have an idea for our role cop + alignment cop: Both check out Qatol tonight - Role cop's check will tell us his alignment (he wouldn't lie about having no role if he was a townie), and at the same time, it should narrow down the Alignment cop's sanity to either paranoid or insane. 1) He gets guilty back, role cop gets "innocent" back - either paranoid or insane. Next day, gets a guilty back - could still be either, but as soon as he hits one innocent, he'll be able to confirm that he's insane. If he keeps getting guiltys... well either everyone's mafia (unlikely) or he's a paranoid cop =[. 2) He gets innocent back; role cop gets "innocent" - he's sane (sweet) role cop gets guilty (a role) - he's insane (still sweet) This plan might be bad... I'm just throwing my ideas out there in hopes that the town will have SOME plan today/tonight. The major problem I see with it right now is the role claim, so we can't actually use any of this information until later on, when our town roles claim. | ||
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DarthThienAn
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On May 03 2010 05:32 Bill Murray wrote: the fact you all are talking about lynching the person who picked first means: 1) you are mafia, have the copycat, and are scratching your nuts for my role 2) you are the copycat, and you expect me to have a good role 3) you are a terrible town player I think what Korynne and I have been saying is that we need to get the copycat role out of the way before we even consider lynching you o.O. | ||
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
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DarthThienAn
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So lynching someone to figure that out is bad imo. | ||
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DarthThienAn
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DarthThienAn
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On May 05 2010 00:44 ~OpZ~ wrote: "Oh I thought opz or Falcynn"....What? No...I posted what happened with my shit, before reading the thread. Go check it out. Me and d3 picked the exact same numbers...-_- You can't prove I'm lying, unless you can RC...and I don't think your RCing me, but feel free to. Bill, give me a phone, I don't care. Hell...Give me a T.V. that reveals my role to the world. And stop saying CV should hit Qatol flat out. Notice Caller was killed? Clearly they want our vets. -__- Not that I really care about Qatol, but protecting him, and adding time to the game would be nice. One of the kills had to be SK =[. But that's a good point, that we lost two vets. I don't see where he suggested hitting Qatol "flat out" though. On May 05 2010 00:45 Falcynn wrote: So do I to an extent, but that's not really enough reason to lynch him, especially now. His plan actually makes sense, if we lynch sidesprang, we'll have some info on whether or not the people above him are telling the truth with their claims (and I'm sure that you guys are experienced enough to know the whole "lynch all liars" strategy). Lynching Radfield now doesn't do anything, it's not like we'll lower the mafia KP by getting him, and he's so far down the list that it's unlikely that he has a really powerful role. We have plenty of time to get people based on suspicions like this, but right now let's just work on getting information based on roles since that's the best lead we've been given. With 3 possible kills each night (mafia, CV, SK) and the random 1 or 2, and a daily lynch, we're only going to have 4 to 6 turns total I think. And most of the night kills with hit town. So we have to play this right, and hit a mafia ASAP. | ||
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
On May 05 2010 06:30 Radfield wrote: Korynne is a girl folks, or at the very least, has roleclaimed girl  lol. Korynne, that doesn't tell us anything, why'd you roleclaim? On May 05 2010 06:46 Radfield wrote: In my eyes, it would be very strange for picks 1-5 to take copy cat. They can already take a good role, the only reason to take copy cat would be to deny Qatol a role. 7 and 8 are dead. Qatol has cleared up his position in his recent novel, I'm inclined to believe him. For now this leaves Sidesprang(9) and Opz(6). Opz at 6 is on that bubble of not making much sense to pick CC, but he might have. He also claims he went for CompVig, but of course his claim doesn't mean much for now. Sidesprang, you happen to be at the perfect spot for taking CopyCat. On another note. I hadn't realized we can vote on the CV hits at night. But of course this makes perfect sense and is what we should be doing. Opz is also suspicious to me though. He claims he went for CompVig AFTER Korynne already stated that she went for it and failed - not only is that a useless roleclaim, but it's completely un-confirmable, which makes me think he might be lying. Well, you can confirm with a Role Check but that requires the Role Cop to claim, which obviously is not a good idea. His pointing out that going CC is retarded makes that just a little bit more suspicious, trying to cover his tracks and whatnot. He's also been (in general) against most of what the town has been saying, and without much justification, which is scummy to me. Definitely agree with the CV at night deal. I have a question though (read Qatol's post), who are we lynching? He/Rad I think suggested Day Vig'ing sidesprang and then lynching someone else? And what do we do in the case that no one picked Day Vig? Back to reading that essay -_- | ||
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
Also, do we want to take a closer look at the inactive people? ie. Amnesia, who basically hasn't posted ANYTHING here. Read: mafia scum trying to hide and stay out of the spotlight, or: busy with life, and still useless -__-. Other players have been posting from time to time, although some of them post worthless these (maybe that includes me, from other's perspectives...) I think there should be a way to work with that CV+medic dealio, but I'm gonna go back to the drawing board on that. | ||
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
On May 05 2010 06:54 Qatol wrote: Oh another thing I want to know: was anyone roleblocked last night? We need to know if there is a roleblocker out there. Judging from the RCs we've seen so far, I feel like we're missing a LOT of roles. We weren't really clear about which roles to get in the beginning (despite that one post by you) and it seems like several players "missed" the PMing and are Vanilla. Assuming no one's lying of course -_-. Since we sort of prioritized roleblocker, though, I'm worried that someone might not have gotten it. im out though >< | ||
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DarthThienAn
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On May 05 2010 23:32 johnnyspazz wrote: if you guys feel like i'm the best target for compvig, then i'll just take one for the town. i know i haven't really been doing much for the town, sorry. maybe someone should go check the list of people who didn't vote for sidesprang for the next lynch target. Bill Murray JeeJee DarthThienAn Scamp citi.zen Meh... i rushed out after my last post to get dinner yesterday and didn't come back to my computer until now o.O. Would've voted for side if I had seen Qatol's clarification, but when I refreshed, I only say the post just before that, didn't refresh again before heading to dinner. Simple as that, not gonna waste much time defending myself. + Show Spoiler + On May 06 2010 02:44 Qatol wrote: First, an updated number list. + Show Spoiler [Bid list] + 1. Bill Murray - [17] [4] 2. Foolishness - [1] [1] 3. Korynne - [1] [5] 4. Falcynn [1] [5-20] or [4] [1] - hasn't claimed 5. [NyC]HoBbes - [4] [1] 6. ~OpZ~ - [4] [14] 7. 8. 9. 10. Qatol - [6] [1] 11. JeeJee - [6] [1] 12. DarthThienAn - [8] [1] 13. johnnyspazz - [8] [4] 14. 15. Radfield - [10] [1] 16. Scamp - [10] [11] 17. Zona - [12] [1] 18. citi.zen - [12] [3] Falcynn SERIOUSLY needs to come forward with his numbers. Groups: + Show Spoiler [Group 1] + Bill Murray + Show Spoiler [Group 2] + Foolishness Korynne Falcynn + Show Spoiler [Group 3] + Falcynn Hobbes ~OpZ~ + Show Spoiler [Group 4] + Qatol JeeJee + Show Spoiler [Group 5] + DarthThienAn johnnyspazz + Show Spoiler [Group 6] + Radfield Scamp + Show Spoiler [Group 7] + Zona citi.zen Now this should presumably clear group #4. However, I'm still not entirely sure that JeeJee belongs IN group #4. Notice that he claimed his numbers after both DarthThienAn and I claimed ours. He could have gotten into the same spot in the drafting order with the numbers [8][1]. This is further complicated by johnnyspazz's presence in group 5. On the one hand, he didn't come forward with his numbers until after both Radfield and DarthThienAn came forward with theirs. On the other, it would be a horrible risk for him to lie about his numbers and then have Amnesia come foward with a contradicting set. I think it is unlikely that he lied about his numbers. So there you have it. Logically, only one of johnnyspazz or JeeJee can be the mafia from group 5 (and I think it is one of them because I still think that Darth is the SK). Anyone want to make a case for hitting one of them over the other? We HAVE to CompVig one of them tonight. Also, Zona, I seem to have broken the archive thread by accidentally typing a [ instead of a ] earlier. Could you fix it lest I make that thread ridiculously long? + Show Spoiler [Final Bid list (Minus Amnesia)] + 1. Bill Murray - [17] [4] 2. Foolishness - [1] [1] 3. Korynne - [1] [5] 4. Falcynn [1] [7] 5. [NyC]HoBbes - [4] [1] 6. ~OpZ~ - [4] [14] 7. 8. 9. 10. Qatol - [6] [1] 11. JeeJee - [6] [1] 12. DarthThienAn - [8] [1] 13. johnnyspazz - [8] [4] 14. 15. Radfield - [10] [1] 16. Scamp - [10] [11] 17. Zona - [12] [1] 18. citi.zen - [12] [3] Qatol, I'm not sure how this changes your grouping - does Falcynn move up a group or what? Anyway, between johnnyspazz and JeeJee (read their posts thru archive): johnnyspazz seems a little bit scummy. + Show Spoiler + On May 04 2010 06:17 ZBot wrote: johnnyspazz: + Show Spoiler + On April 22 2010 10:26 johnnyspazz wrote: can i play? On April 30 2010 07:59 johnnyspazz wrote: omg 3 more hours On May 02 2010 01:29 johnnyspazz wrote: I picked [8][4]. Good call darth On May 02 2010 18:20 johnnyspazz wrote: wow ok so i skipped the part where i was supposed to pm a role to ace, gg me as for voting for me, i guess that would be a great start since you wouldn't be losing anyone important. as for incognito "coaching" me, all he did was refer me to good players such as yourself qatol to ask for advice. last game i tried to be super active and that only turned the town against me. let me guess, people are going to accuse me for being a lurker and responding when a vote is casted on me. well, there's nothing i can really do if i was busy all day and when i get the chance to read the thread, there's a vote on me by the end. coincidences happen On May 03 2010 01:02 johnnyspazz wrote: should we assume you are just as vanilla townie since you were gone? On May 03 2010 10:33 johnnyspazz wrote: i think we as a town should agree on what the invention should be and what it should do. that way we know if the inventor is pro-town or not. On May 03 2010 14:14 johnnyspazz wrote: he said he was gone all day. i was asking if he made the same mistake that i did, not pming a role to ace, and confirming his story. yeah that's fishy, sorry. On May 03 2010 14:21 johnnyspazz wrote: i realize now that pointing out the people who have no abilities in the thread is very dumb because it gives the mafia a smaller list of targets to attack! i was only thinking about confirming townies...crap On May 04 2010 08:18 johnnyspazz wrote: you want people claim in the thread so mafia can just have a list of targets to destroy? or are you just looking for someone good to give your invention to? On May 04 2010 14:46 johnnyspazz wrote: i'm guessing his cellphone allows you to pm people one of the hits wasn't mafia, i'm guessing SK killed caller and mafia hit d3? after all, assuming the mafia has copycat, why would they hit caller? On May 05 2010 11:26 johnnyspazz wrote: i'm still trying to catch up on the reading, it is MUCH easier to do stuff in nano games since there are 95% less posts to read. On May 05 2010 11:33 johnnyspazz wrote: ##Vote Sidesprang## after reading through everything, i agree that sidesprang would be a good lynch target why aren't people using the compvig vote idea that was brought up earlier in the game? On May 05 2010 12:01 johnnyspazz wrote: funny you should say this because i didn't even play in flamewheel's game On May 05 2010 12:15 johnnyspazz wrote: my bad scamp, i don't think anyone is denying the BM is the inventor unless i missed it earlier. why are you bringing it up? On May 05 2010 23:32 johnnyspazz wrote: if you guys feel like i'm the best target for compvig, then i'll just take one for the town. i know i haven't really been doing much for the town, sorry. maybe someone should go check the list of people who didn't vote for sidesprang for the next lynch target. Bill Murray JeeJee DarthThienAn Scamp citi.zen notable things are: a little of roleclaiming/hunting.. might be looking for "good targets". He follows this by criticizing BM for looking for someone trustworthy (ie. by roleclaiming), which is a bit hypocritical since he did a little bit of the same earlier. Bandwagons sidesprang, claims inactivity. Hasn't really contributed anything original though, and none of his posts make him out to be pro-town. ----- JeeJee, on other hand, does the opposite: he says he's not going to claim his role despite several others claiming Vanilla, but then goes and says: On May 04 2010 23:30 JeeJee wrote: now that we know this.. # Bill Murray inventor let me add a piece of it as well # JeeJee VANILLA i didn't go for copycat so presumably we have some liars up in here either that or hobbes is mafia for the role that he is (or should be), he sure isn't doing shit with it. then again neither is sidesprang so i'm at a loss here so foolishness, who are you gonna hit tonight? Really unnecessarily imo, claiming is never good unless you are a) trying to trick mafia, b) lying because you are mafia, or c) have useful information that requires that you claim. But I think we've been over this, so why is he claiming if he has no concrete follow up to it? Could be scum trying to hide by pleading vanilla town. On May 05 2010 00:04 JeeJee wrote: hold on citizen. why would hobbes or sidesprang have lied? assuming all vanilla claism are true,it's still entirely possible one of them is copycat and the other one is my role it still works out. of course that doesn't mean they're not mafia but in actuality my role probably isn't that desirable for mafia (and figuring they were closer to the top i'd have a better chance of getting this one) so that's another thing to keep in mind. i'm thinking atm. On May 06 2010 03:06 JeeJee wrote: you are correct, i probably know hobbes' role now, of course that's still pending whether others have lied but the way the events have unfolded so far, the claims seem legit. i think i probably understand hobbes' strategy now and it kind of makes sense.. we shall see. atm i am leaning towards hobbes being townie so that's where we stand on that issue. what's the plan with inventions this night? i'm still leaning towards alignment kits. maybe you can get creative and get a gun with special bullets .. if you hit a mafia, they die, if you hit a townie, nothing happens. its like an alignment kit with bullets, whooo =) From this, we can gather that if JeeJee is town, then Hobbes is town. The invention idea is undoubtedly pro-town, but it could be an act.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In short I'm leaning toward johnnyspazz for a CV hit. Both of them are... questionable, but johnnyspazz seems a bit more scummy, whereas JeeJee is either trying to keep a low profile, or he just likes being ambiguous (which is good! don't want to tell the mafia too much). ##CompVig Kill: johnnyspazz | ||
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DarthThienAn
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On May 06 2010 04:15 Qatol wrote: Easy. Do you trust Bill not to make a regular gun but have the same name? How about he makes another one after that? And then the mafia all fire their guns the same night. Is there a way we can confirm Bill as town? Or anyone for that matter? I'm inclined to think Radfield for one is town, as he led us to sidesprang, who turned out to be mafia. Call it luck if you want, but no way that mafia would kill each other with only 4 in the game. | ||
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On May 06 2010 05:39 citi.zen wrote: This is silly - ANYTHING can be used to kill someone - the key is in the description, not the name. Us giving Bill ideas does not help or stop him from changing the attributes we cannot observe. Am I the only one who does not get this or is this plainly obvious? But based on Night 1, Ace won't tell us the description, he'll just tell us the name. The point of a transparent name is that whoever doesn't get it in the town can still tell what is does / is. | ||
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On May 06 2010 06:14 Qatol wrote: Wait, question: If you were planning on making your invention work like this, why were you calling for the medic to protect you? You have already provided a huge disincentive for targeting you. Shouldn't the medic try to block a hit on someone else? It makes sense for the medic to protect him - mafia still have a hit. But not multiple medics - the only reason why he would need more than one is if he's worried that, if Foolishness if mafia, they'll try to do a trade? Which doesn't sound unreasonable since the Inventor is such a powerful role. But I kinda feel like this would be a bad trade for us - considering the number of vanilla claims that have gone through, I feel like the town is short on roles, so having the Inventor is really important imo. | ||
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On May 06 2010 06:38 Foolishness wrote: You really think the town is short on roles given the huge list of town roles to choose from? (There's definitely a few roles on the list that the mafia would never grab outside the sole purpose of not letting the town have it). You think that 3-5 people ended up picking CV or Inventor? I don't think anyone here is that dumb, people are obviously lying about being a townie. So wait, first BM says I'm mafia and I'm going to kill him at night, then he says he's entrusting the laptop to me to find a mafia? Let's try to be more wishy-washy please. Dude, have been listening to the role claims so far? Half the people forgot to PM Ace apparaently and half the people went for something that was already taken. If no one's lying, there are something like 10-14 roles in the game, 3 of which are gone (death), and 3 more of which could be mafia... | ||
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The tossup for compvig kill was originally between jspazz and jeejee. I think it was partially based on Qatol's groupings earlier. If jspazz flips green, theres a higher chance that jeejee is red? But Radfield brings up a really good point - multiple accusations and trying to stir up a kill seems a little scummy. BUT. If what BM says is true about last game, then that clears Scamp. Not to mention that the mass finger pointing seems a little TOO much for mafia. Mafia would try to lay low right? That or try to be all goodie goodie town town. I'm inclined to think Scamp is town. | ||
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On May 06 2010 11:49 Zona wrote: Bill - if you're town, you need to work with us, your fellow town members in order to get rid of scum. Even if you identify scum, you cannot lynch anyone on your own, and since you can't use your own inventions, you aren't able to kill on your own either. You've been examining other people's arguments for holes - for example, saying Qatol's number grouping argument wasn't a strong sign that he was town. Have you considered examining the arguments you make on your own behalf that way? After all, the rest of us should be reading what you say the way you are reading other players' posts, if we are to be careful town members. You need to invent something that is clearly pro-town and useful only to town members. Why is this? Like others have said, you need to clear suspicion around yourself. You clearly know if you're town, but you need to convince us, and so far your arguments and actions do not confirm you, and you should realize this if you examine what we can see of what you've done the way you are examining other players. The thing is - a mafia inventor would clearly bring benefit to his or her team by turning out guns and other destructive inventions. But if that inventor did that it would clearly draw the attention of the town to get rid of this inventor as soon as possible. However, if a mafia inventor didn't want the town to immediately aim for his or her death, the inventor could turn out ambiguous inventions or tools that benefit the mafia in smaller ways, but aren't as obvious when publicized. It's up to you to prove to us that this situation is not the case. I really hope that you don't instantly react to any criticism of you and your actions by thinking or saying that the person doing the criticizing is scummy, but instead take steps to address the criticism. If you act in an obviously pro-town way that OTHERS CAN UNDERSTAND, then you could be one of the town leaders, given your powerful role. And if your goal is a "town circle" (I really don't prefer this term), it doesn't necessarily have to rely only on PMs. A "town circle" is simply a group of players who know that each of the other players in the group are pro-town and work together to find and lynch scum. The reason they usually need to communicate in secret is that they're vulnerable if revealed to the public - but in this game, you as an inventor can take steps to counter that. Hey BM, invent a: Detective_Kit_to_Confirm_Bill_Murray's_Innocence. | ||
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On May 06 2010 11:53 johnnyspazz wrote: see, that's what scamp wants you to think so he can skate by O_o. That simple sentence makes me really confused about Scamp T_T... | ||
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... ... I'm going to assume the medic DIDNT protect Bill Murray -_- | ||
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On May 06 2010 14:01 Qatol wrote: Hmm the Night post has a few interesting points. Only 2 deaths: johnnyspazz and Bill Murray. Did we have a hit blocked? Or did the mafia and the SK happen to hit the same target? If anyone else has more information about the night (like if you took a hit), please come forward. Is it possible that the SK stacked with the mafia on BM? It seems really really unlikely, but it's possible. But I don't know why the SK would hit BM... This is assuming that jspazz died from our CV hitting him as we suggested. | ||
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On May 06 2010 14:03 Qatol wrote: It doesn't necessarily mean that at all. The medic very well could have protected Bill Murray. It is just as likely that both the mafia and the SK hit Bill Murray. EBWOP: Sorry, got excited and didn't point out the other thing interesting about the night post: No invention. Is that just because he died? Yea. And yea @ EBWOP, was just gonna point that out myself. | ||
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On May 06 2010 22:35 citi.zen wrote: Interesting claim that you got hit and were protected. There is only one medic in the game (at most). They could be red I suppose, but if they aren't, this would be a very hard claim to fake since someone would know you are lying. So this moves the needle a bit more towards your innocence in my mind. And it certainly means you are NOT the SK - which is nice to know. As far as BM - yes, I think he was a threat to the SK, in particular if he made some invention along the lines of what we suggested. It would provide a 3rd person with a way to find the SK and also kill them (assuming Ace allowed it to work like that). Speaking of finding people - would a townie ever take the godfather role? That and the role-blocker are much stronger in mafia hands. Yup, Bill changed his style, but isn't a better player unfortunately. In particular, when he is town he continues to be a big time liability. If he made no invention, I was going to vote for him 100%, which would be a wasted day. Given he was going to not make anything, it's actually a good thing the reds chose to kill him instead of someone else. Well... it doesn't necessarily mean that he isn't the SK. All it means that the medic actually DID protect him, or else he's taking a risk in assuming that there are no medics left in the game so that he won't get called out. However, to me, he's 99% pro-town. Hobbes and JeeJee seem to know something that no one else knows - either both of them are town, or both of them are mafia? Well... that's not necessarily true, but both of them think the other is of the same alignment at least. 1 could be mafia tricking the other into believe he is innocent using the role that they picked. As for my "fading out", I've been reading pretty relatively regularly... well not "regularly" but frequently I think. I post when I have something to contribute, or have an idea. Plus, stuff happens. We all have lives =p. On May 06 2010 19:25 Radfield wrote: OK, lets look at some potential suspects. Foolishness certainly gets a pass for now, no reason to worry about him as long as he keeps shooting properly. But, I think it likely the mafia would have had someone put down 1 as there number, so.... Korynne: A lot of theorycrafting early on, but posting less and less as time goes on, barely contributing at all as far as our lynch suspect or compvig hit. She has continually mentioned that killing her off for info is a good idea. She voted 6th on the Sidesprang lynch with very little analysis. We would gain a bit of info from her death(if she's red then foolishness and citizen are almost certainly green) but not much Korynne, I'm pointing the FoS at you. I don't have a great case, but I'd like to hear you on the record with who you find scummy and why, and who you think we should lynch/compvig today. Also, I think it very unlikely that Qatol is mafia. Serial Killer maybe, but that goes for anyone at his point, no matter how pro-town they've been. Qatol basically got sidesprang killed by revealing that he went for copycat and missed. I can't think of any good reason for sidesprang's or qatol's actions if they were mafia buddies. I'm not sure the mafia would've put someone down as 1. I mean, we basically had two or three people claiming they were going 1, 1 early right? I know L said that. It seems silly for them to waste their time doesn't it? The only reason I see them doing it, is they are assuming that only one person would pick 1,1, so they want to deny that person getting first pick. | ||
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On May 07 2010 01:09 Qatol wrote: Okay without Hobbes/JeeJee as mafia and without anyone who picked 1 as mafia, and I'll take out yourself and radfield you are basically saying the mafia are 3 of these 4: Opz, scamp, zona/citizen, and myself. Is that an accurate assessment of the situation to you? + Show Spoiler [Radfield's post] + On May 07 2010 01:23 Radfield wrote: Well, as far as I'm concerned this takes both Hobbes and JeeJee off the short list. They might both be mafia together, but in that case one will lead us to the other. Qatol, I was re-reading those posts I put up this morning, and I was a little bit confused as to why I put Citizen on that non-mafia list as well. The reason is this though, pretty much everyone on my suspicious list has called out citizen as potential mafia. Citizen style this game also just seems so obviously scummy, (right down to the pointless arguing with you, when you are very obviously in my eyes non-mafia) that I'm inclined to think him a townie. If pressed I would take him off the non-mafia list, but I don't think him all that likely to be scummy. As far as Falcynn, my sole reasoning is that he immediately agreed with my origional post about sidesprang, and the way he worded everything strikes me as town. No one else had agreed with me about Sidesprang yet, and yet he was still the first one aboard. I think a mafia would have been slightly less ok with it. The post I'm referring to: Korynne: I completely understand what you're saying about possibly being burnt out etc. However, I think you're a very clever player. You played your first game as a very active townie, you played your second game as a very active mafia, and being very convincing at that. I'm inclined to think that if you got mafia again in this game, you might play it exactly the way you are. Fake being tired of Mafia as an excuse to post less. Unfortunately for all of us, there's little you can do at this point to remove suspicion from yourself. Anyways, I'm genuinely hoping you're mafia, and that you're burnt out routine is an act, because you seem like a good player to have around. Korynne is a good target, because I think despite her alignment, she told the truth about being Vanilla. So worst case scenario we kill a vanilla townie who isn't that upset about being killed anyways, but gives us a lead to Foolishness maybe. Best case we get a vanilla mafia. JeeJee and Hobbes should get a pass for today, but if a bunch of other targets turn up innocent, we might have to hit them both. At some point the information they are sharing needs to be made public. If we don't hit a mafia with our lynch or comphit hit today, and the SK hits another townie, we'll need as much info as we can get. If we had to lynch one of them, I'd go with JeeJee I stand by what I said earlier about Scamp, but if we decide to lynch him and he is the medic, then he needs to roleclaim. If no one contradicts him, then we call off the lynch. Keep in mind, the medic is basically a confirmed townie, and pretty much a confirmed non-SK. I can't see why the SK would take medic as a role, though perhaps to deny it from the town, perhaps because it gives him/her a convenient cover. ~opz~: I think Opz threw me off his trail by his vehement defense when I called him out. He just seemed outraged that I was wasting time by putting him on any suspect lists. What made me suspect him was how he tried to sidetrack my Sidesprang argument, but looking at it now makes me think it was just a knee-jerk reaction of seeing his name on a suspect list. I also buy his story of trying for CompVig and failing. Likely Vanilla either way. Personally his posting makes me think he's town. I put him as a second string lynch target for now. DarthTheinAn seems suspect. He made a case against ~opz~ early on. Votes for Jspazz over JeeJee for the CV hit. Try's to give Scamp a pass for being TOO mafia. None of these things necessarily make him a mafia. But his posting in general smacks of mafia to me, I recommend everyone look through his posting. Points out lots of obvious stuff, steers the convo away from certain people, lots of theorycrafting early on, not much talk about voting later on. Darth seems mafia, and seems like he might lead us to other mafia. I vote we lynch DarthTheinAn, If he flops red, then I propose we Compvig Scamp, and ask the SK to hit JeeJee ##Vote DarthTheinAn## I haven't really talked about Zona, but I really don't have much to say about him. He seems fairly legit and is likely working hard on the zbot.... I didn't proofread as I've run out of time and steam. If there's anything I said that doesn't make sense please point it out. Alright. Let me explain myself, hopefully in full. I personally don't buy that something like a third of the players in the game are Vanilla because they "forgot" to PM Ace with their picks or they picked something already picked. THREE people picked Comp Vig, Opz being the lowest one down - he claimed he didn't read the thread before picking which is just dumb to me, and is one of the things that made me suspicious. Well, let's first rewind - the first thing that made me notice him was the fact that picked [4][14], which was coincidentally d3's number. But no one else seemed to care and we were steering away from the draft analysis, so I didn't bring it up again and distract the thread. Back to his role. Foolishness and Korynne (I'm assuming Foolishness is the CV and Korynne also picked it) I sort of understand picking CV because Foolishness... might have wanted CV (? Don't really know why he went for it) and Korynne picked it as per what the town was discussing iirc. But Opz, I don't really understand at all. There's no reason why you would do that, the same as if there's no reason why anyone would have picked copycat, except for mafia. What's more, as I said when I called him out, is that he claimed going for Comp Vig after Korynne had long been talking about it, which makes it really easy for him to lie, similar to the way some of the numbers people claimed could be lies. He also said this early on: + Show Spoiler [Opz's post] + On May 03 2010 14:42 ~OpZ~ wrote: It also gives the perfect opportunity for meds to just protect a smaller list of people. Inventor could claim, give someone from the top a veteran kit/bulletproof kit/nightlight to keep away the evil mafia away. Medicas can protect the other ones. We don't know who claimed Role Cop/ Alignment cop/meds... We don't need the role I tried to pick, so me claiming shouldn't matter. Compulsive vig isn't really an epic role unless you are insanely lucky, or the town is insanely coordinated and good. So we should be good. Alignment should check near top/Role cop should check near top. perhaps RC number 2, and alignment #1/3 Inventor could likely safely claim and coordinate atleast two protections. Seriously, hand out a vetkit/nightlight, and have a med protect him....If mafia hit a vet/bulletproof/protected target, they lose their nightkill... Inventor shouldn't hide, and meds should protect him if mafia are likely to hit the top of the list. Why claim later then? He says he's not going to claim, and later claims CompVigDenied-Vanilla. And, like I said, there was no need for him to roleclaim - there was no possible way it could help the town. We already knew that the CompVig was above Korynne. Unless she was lying, but his word was as good as hers. So claiming only helps the mafia really (unless you are lying to trick the mafia), because town can't really confirm that whether or not you're vanilla, but you're giving the mafia less targets to hit first. So a lot of unprovable "I'm Vanilla townie" things = I read possible scum. + Show Spoiler [His reply to me] + On May 05 2010 08:23 ~OpZ~ wrote: And when I die, I hope they read your name as the perpetrator who hath slain me. Just because I refuse to led around like a sheep? You go be sheep. I've also defended killing Qatol, which quite a few people jumped on that to say he should die, just based on role claims alone. Eh? Please appear less scummy to the green towny plz Darth. Thank you. Oh, and seriously, go look me up. I've been mafia once? I was silent the entire game. And every game I'm townie, I always say F the towns sheepness. I didn't bother replying with this because, we were moving on to move important things first of all, and his response didn't say anything except "this is how I play, Darth be less scummy plz." He sorta dodged the things I pointed out against him, but, once again, I didn't point this out because by the time I rechecked the thread, it would have been a waste of all of our times to reply. He's still suspicious to me, but you apparently have other concerns, so... Next. My thoughts about Scamp were this: as someone pointed out (Radfield maybe?), Scamp was a bit sporadic in his finger pointing. My argument was that a normal mafia wouldn't do this, imo. Mafia want to throw attention onto other people/things, not attract attention by calling out several people without justification. That's why I said that Scamp might be more town to me. It was just a personal hunch though. If you guys feel strongly about Scamp, go with it. Those alive: 2. Foolishness - [1] [1] 3. Korynne - [1] [5] 4. Falcynn [1] [7] 5. [NyC]HoBbes - [4] [1] 6. ~OpZ~ - [4] [14] 10. Qatol - [6] [1] 11. JeeJee - [6] [1] 12. DarthThienAn - [8] [1] 15. Radfield - [10] [1] 16. Scamp - [10] [11] 17. Zona - [12] [1] 18. citi.zen - [12] [3] I think Rad is innocent. I think Qatol is most likely town as well. Zona/citi.zen I haven't really looked at. Scamp I kinda thought was innocent because of his finger pointing. I'm not sure about the [1]'s, but, looking at who we have left, one of the mafia might be among them. If I was mafia, I personally wouldn't have picked [1] except to deny L first pick, but they very well could've. So what I said earlier was just a possibility - the same way that Qatol's groups, though it's very likely that they work out, are not for certain. I actually have to go now, so I'll post this now and finish up later >_>. Class ~ | ||
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
On May 07 2010 04:55 Qatol wrote: What? Why can't we have a mafia Korynne and an innocent Foolishness? Foolishness could have just been innocent and gone against his assignment. He does do somewhat paranoid things from time to time. Like in the speed game, he told me he was in contact with a nonexistent vigilante because he was suspicious of me. Late game, when we needed that vigi to take a shot, it didn't happen and we lost. That's because nobody really had anything to gain by claiming that little quirk. opz had to have picked [4][?]. The second number really isn't that important. No this is a decent argument other than the numbers thing. You really should have brought this up sooner. Out of your statements, you said earlier you are inclined to believe that hobbes and jeejee are the same alignment. Now you just eliminated myself and radfield. I'm just wondering who that leaves. Foolishness/Korynne/Falcynn, opz, scamp, and zona/citi.zen unless hobbes and jeejee are both mafia. And one of the situations which you say is unlikely to be true pretty much must be true. I've been thinking about the medic thing a bit more. You are obviously a decently smart player (protecting Radfield over Bill Murray), so I think we should leave claiming up to you. However, you need to decide whether you want to claim right now. This is because if we put a mafia up on the chopping block, they can just claim medic to out you anyways. Serial Killer may try to do it to save their skin as well. If you do it, the mafia may just crossclaim in order to make us waste a lynch on you anyways (less likely than the other two, but possible, considering the state the game is in). The only way a player does not claim medic when they are on the chopping block is if they are an innocent non-medic. So I propose this idea: we believe a roleclaim of medic for the next 10 hours. This allows the medic to separate himself or herself from those we are actively talking about on the chopping block if necessary. If no roleclaim is forthcoming, we do not believe any future roleclaims of medic. Do not roleclaim unless you deem it absolutely necessary. We don't want to lose you tonight if we can help it. Anyone disagree with this idea? Yeah I was getting around to my most recent post when I had to rush out - I still think it's highly likely that Hobbes and JeeJee are of the same alignment, whether that be town or mafia. I'm kinda leaning toward the idea that one of Foolishness, Korynne, Falcynn are mafia. I already explained why I think Opz is probably mafia. Scamp I'm not sure of, and the whole idea of a medic claiming would be really troublesome. However, I'm not sure that he's medic - he showed some reluctance to going for the role early on saying that he would get it only if others thought that he REALLY should. If my memory serves, no one really followed up on that, which makes me think he might have gone for a different role. Once again, Zona and citi.zen I haven't looked at too closely - if I'm right about the first group having one and Opz being mafia, then that leaves one of Scamp/Zona/citi.zen as the last mafia. The only thing I've noticed about Zona is that he writes not frequently, but he writes really long posts with quality, which is better than spam. He's done a lot of "bringing us down to earth" so to speak, and making sure we consider different angles, much like BM did (if I'm not getting confused with other players). That's about all he's done though, I don't think he's really actively pushed for anything. citi.zen has been a bit more hostile as you guys have noted. He calls out Foolishness and Korynne with his "preliminary impressions," sticks on the two of them for awhile actually, though Korynne a bit longer than Foolishness. Defends sidesprang - wow I just realized how much he tried to defend / delay sidesprang's death: red flag - and in the end votes for sidesprang giving "information gathering" as his reason, a jump on the bandwagon imo. Then there's battle with Qatol. I don't know his style. But his defense of sidesprang has just made me suspicious. I think it's definitely worth considering, and I think he might be mafia - that or, based on his animosity toward Korynne, Korynne is mafia. What does everyone think? + Show Spoiler [citizen's notable posts] + On May 02 2010 12:33 citi.zen wrote: Preliminary impressions: Zona is town aligned; Quatol seems town aligned but less sure of it (scary if he isn't). Foolishness is extremely shady - his first post is this ad-hominem attack: ...followed a bit later by another post that does not sit well with me: Korynne also seems off to me. He is clearly thinking about the roles a lot, yet makes repeated mistakes in his proposed "pro-town" plans. This could be a new player thing, or someone who is trying to seem active but not paying enough attention to "the other side's view". Together with their number picks (which Foolishness describes as having "outsmarted" others - which implies strategy, not luck) I view them as very fishy. These are first impressions. I am not going to pretend they are strong and will not argue with anyone just yet - don't bother. Onwards and upwards. On May 03 2010 11:54 citi.zen wrote: ##Vote johnnyspazz On May 04 2010 22:33 citi.zen wrote: This possibility is pretty bothersome - we may learn less than advertised by lynching Sidersprang. That said, I would like to hear more from Qatol, he's sort of gone dormant after being very active early on. I really wish Bill would have just made detective kits or something to that effect. Remember Zona's observation about town win rates when the DT is dead/alive. In this case the role-picked DT may not be sane... so a plain vanilla Dt would be hugely helpful. Nothing will give us clearer information right now. Town circles CAN be effective IF there is decent information to provide some minimum amount of trust/information (ie - a detective). Also, town circles can easily be infiltrated with this set of rules and, in this case, they will take way too long to set-up. How exactly was the cell phone supposed to work anyway? Does the "other" person need one too or can you PM anyone? Some other way? On May 04 2010 23:08 citi.zen wrote: Yup, at the end of the day some information is better than no information, so lynching him helps more than some other shot in the dark. Too early to have very strong red candidates anyway. Let's do it. ##Vote Sidesprang ## On May 04 2010 23:29 citi.zen wrote: Not a bad question - even if he is willing to play along I don't think we will be able to use his kills properly just yet, so he is probably helping the mafia. It would be a great defensive play, but in the end I'd rather try to get some extra info by lynching sidersprang I guess. I would NOT use the day vigilante of sidersprang though. Lynch him and save the day vig hit. No need to rush into this and start killing people left and right on very little information. On May 04 2010 23:47 citi.zen wrote: Or sidersprang took it and Qatol lied. Or another vanilla role claimant lied. On May 04 2010 23:58 citi.zen wrote: Ok, we have 4 vanilla role claimants + Hobbes + sidersprang, one of which lied if JeeJee is telling the truth. We should lynch sidersprang, as discussed. I'd like to keep Qatol around. Hitting Hobbes is risky if he has a good role and is pro-town. Leaving us with Korynne, Falcynn and ~Opz~ to use the compulsive vigilante hit on. I will vote to compulsive vig hit Korynne out of that group. And no, I still don't like using he day vig. No reason to speed up the killing on poor information. Let's wait for the lynch flop and save the day vig hit for a time we have more info. On May 05 2010 02:08 citi.zen wrote: I don't care if "deserves it". Every single game there are bad town-aligned players who screw their team over, and it's too many of them to lynch the lot of them. That's just a sad fact. What matters is what are our best options going forward. I like your reasoning a lot, which is why I voted for him. But can we do better? On May 05 2010 05:49 citi.zen wrote: I only have a very weak preference for you. Perhaps we can compvig hit sidersprang and not lynch? Not sure, but I don't want to take too many random shots before the dt(s) if bill agrees to make more kits) have time to perform checks. Before then it's more likely we will kill townies and help the mafia. On May 05 2010 23:14 citi.zen wrote: Sidersprang wasn't lynched because he was terribly suspect, but because he didn't really reply + we thought we might get more info on other people from lynching him. We got lucky with our lynch, which is great, but remember the mafia KP is the same whatever happens. For tonight, I still like alignment kits as our invention - the chance of hitting a red by shooting into the crowd are now even lower. Alternatively - what do we think of making some meth-bomb-like item which would not kill all visitors, only the shooter? If enough townies have those the reds eventually kill themselves. I need to review people's posts relative to Sidersprang. | ||
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
On May 07 2010 06:32 Qatol wrote: So you think the mafia picked 1? Darth was just mentioning that he did not think that was the case because of L/Bill Murray both claiming to have taken [1][1]. Do you disagree? Why? To clarify, I find it unlikely - but am open to the idea if anyone can explain to me why the mafia would do so EXCEPT to deny someone the unique [1][1]. That or explain why that denying is enough incentive for them to go [1][1]. Like Radfield said, we all have to be careful of accepting things as fact when it's more of a, "likely possibility." Even I'm guilty of that, trying to correct myself now >< | ||
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DarthThienAn
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On May 07 2010 07:01 Korynne wrote: citi.zen Thinks Zona is town, and less sure but thinks Qatol is town too. Thinks Foolishness and Korynne are shifty. In defence of what citi.zen says about: If you read my last two games I always try to think about the other side. I think I got carried away with like omg qatol has an awesome plan let's add to it. This game clearly has more "vets" (Qatol seems like one of them) than the other games I've played so purposely slipping up here seems like a bad idea on my part. Stuff about BM's invention and town circles etc etc Proposes an alignment and not role detective kit. Replies to Radfield asking him if he will lynch sidesprang with yes, information is better than no information. Proposes saving the dayvig kill. Apparently [continues] "to like Korynne as a red" xD 4 vanilla claimants and one must be lying if JeeJee is telling the truth (sidesprang ended up being the guy lying here) Still voting for hitting Korynne... xD Again, no dayvig plz. Points out johnnyspazz missed him in the voted for sidesprang count. Buncha stuff about invention stuffs... Argues with Qatol about invention stuffs... Likes JeeJee's play. Basically back and forth with Qatol, accusing Korynne in between. xD Conclusion: Likes to accuse me a lot, but I can see how I've been playing not so well this game. xD Doesn't seem to give /too/ much information on why I should be lynched, just slightly prefered and FoS on me and Foolishness from the start. Verdict: Slightly suspicious. I don't like the focus on inventions and quibbling with Qatol, seems like fake activity almost. Also Darth that is poor reasoning. Animosity towards another player when you are town does not indicate whether someone is mafia. I agree I've played rather poorly this game in terms of being lazy and not thinking enough about the plan but that doesn't make me mafia if citi.zen is town. Likewise if you lynch me and I'm town, that doesn't automatically make citi.zen mafia. If one of us flips red, you can consider the other more green/be suspicious by reverse psychology since mafia would know whether the other person was green. But two people pointing fingers at each other doesn't really mean much if the first one killed ends up green. Well, I think if he's mafia, then it clears you as town, and vice versa - mafia wouldn't continually point each other out so unnecessarily imo. So I'm thinking the other way around with what you're thinking. On May 07 2010 08:35 Korynne wrote: Darth's only "significant" post (slightly long and looks like it wasn't written in 5 minutes) seem to be the one for reasoning to kill johnnyspazz, except one way before on some plan on verifying alignment cop's sanity. Didn't vote for sidesprang or make any mention of it. Prefered killing spazz to JeeJee. Seems reasonably scummy to vote for. Excuse me? I just spent my entire afternoon today while not in class writing up a post that's on one of the last couple pages. Almost NONE of my posts are "written in 5 minutes." Maybe it's because I spend more time reading than posting, but at least represent me fairly if you're going to call out my posting quality. I didn't vote for sidesprang because I wasn't around to do it. I think I've said this before; I wasn't there when everyone except for Qatol and Radfield started voting for sidesprang, and didn't know I wouldn't make it back in time to vote. There was discussion of going for someone else and CV'ing sidesprang instead, so I held back my vote for later - which I missed obviously, unplanned. I'm sorry if TL Mafia isn't my #1 priority in life. But I've said this like 3 times at least now, please read through my posts before you bring up things I already addressed, or point the things out that don't make sense in my follow-ups. I preferred johnnyspazz over JeeJee because neither was really "clear scum" but we had to go for something. My reasoning to end up with johnnyspazz is in the post that you already mentioned. Explain to me why I'm scummy again? Radfield, this goes out to you too. The only reason I've seen you give to lynch me is that my "posting is generally scummy" - I think your town, but I disagree with this - could you be more specific with that comment? | ||
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DarthThienAn
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On May 07 2010 09:01 Korynne wrote: Right, it's okay if mafia isn't everyone else's priority in life but I'm the one being the suspect for it. >_> Most of your posts are like 5min posts, I even went through them again afterwards to make sure. They're mostly like 1-5 lines long and are like conversational rather than analysis. I'm taking my information from zbot so it's not updated with your entire afternoon writing stuff, but I mean given that everyone is accusing you today it would be rather silly to sit back and read and not post long defenses. Though my bad on the explanation on not voting sidesprang, it was in the johnnyspazz long pots so I skimmed and didn't catch it. Hmm. really? I just looked at all my posts, and most of them are either fairly long, or multiple posts near each other. If you look at your own posting, it's about the same, maybe slightly more than my posting. And though a couple things are "conversational," it's hardly the majority of my posts. In fact, I think I put in quite a few good bits on analysis here and there: draft, Opz, johnnyspazz, analysis about several different roles, a bit on CV and inventions as well. What are you suspect for? It was like one comment by Qatol or Radfield, there are plenty other things that you're under suspicion for; no one's really using that as the focus of their reason to accuse you. And I posted long posts before I started getting called out - it's a matter of whether or not I had something to say. I didn't realize that I was supposed to write a daily essay for you guys. I have school making do that already, thanks. Basically: anything you're accusing me of, Korynne, you're basically guilty of as well. So maybe Radfield or Qatol can call me out for it, but you, don't try to use it against me. And, since I probably won't be here tonight: ##Vote Korynne | ||
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On May 07 2010 09:50 Radfield wrote: I agree, the cast majority of Foolishness' posts come across with a very aggressive tone. That's more metagame than anything pertinent though. @Darth Darth, let me be clear, I don't have a solid case against you like I did against Sidesprang. Here is why you strike me as scummy. If you're town you'll hopefully understand my reasoning, if you're mafia you'll know where you went wrong. Some of these points are stronger than others, none of them make any kind of case against you on their own. You missed the first vote, so did many people, but either way this is not a good sign. You contributed a lot early on when we weren't discussing mafia at all, and then your activity level plummeted once we got around to lynching and CVing. You point out a lot of obvious stuff in your early posts. You also do a lot of agreeing without a lot of adding your own suggestions. Lots of 'so what do we do next team', 'lets get a plan' You call out amnesia and Jspazz as scummy, both flip town.(again, none of these on their own are indicative of mafia on their own) You did NOT vote for Sidesprang. you're "inclined to think Scamp is town". And then THREE minutes later you waffle on it after a nothing comment by JSpazz You're more recent posts are not in the Zbot and I don't feel like searching for more. These in a nutshell are why I think you're scum. Because you've talked so much, we would gain a lot of info from you flipping red. Also, the more I look through you're posts the scummier you look... I missed the first vote because time went fast and I was busy casting for CSL and forgot =[. It happens I guess. I'll admit that my activity level plummeted quite a bit. Part of the reason is that the weekend ended, so I spent less time on mafia than on the weekend obviously. Once we got down to concrete analysis, I had less to say, and only posted when I DID have something to say. Theorycrafting is easy for me, especially with numbers >_>. Analyzing posting behavior is hard, since I don't know any of you. I didn't realize that I pointed out obvious stuff and didn't contribute much =[. Guess I'll have to work on that. I called Amnesia out for being scummy on the fact that he was completely inactive and getting away with it. I called it scummy not necessarily because I thought he was mafia, but because I didn't want people to let him get away if he WAS mafia. I felt that my accusation on jspazz was merited - I mean, Qatol basically said: "let's pick between jspazz and JeeJee" and no one picked between them, so I did. sidesprang, I've been through several times. I think even those who voted for him could be suspicious. Whether or not you vote on a mafia is not an indication on your alignment, unless you are the one who starts it. Even the second or third person could be mafia. Again, my position on Scamp is really shaky. There's a fine line between mafia and TOO mafia. I was hoping that someone would analyze what I had said / agree with it, but jspazz throws out a nothing comment that accents my concerns instead - multiple reverse psychologies is possible, after all. Anyway, lynching me, town'll lose something. But I'll try to help out before my corpse offers you guys information. Any suggestions before I go? If you can't figure out what that means, please don't post, your thoughts aren't worth listening to at this point. | ||
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On May 07 2010 10:41 Qatol wrote: Then why didn't you advocate making one even once? (I assume rd=red here) Anyways, I'll leave this alone until the lynch. We have other priorities. Umm Strategic modkill = nono unless Ace is moderating this WAY differently from every other host (which I highly doubt). Yes, please give us your honest impressions of as many people as you can before you die. I will make sure they are discussed after you die. Opz I know you had a longer post, but I wanted to take care of the quick stuff right now. Look closer and gimme a name. | ||
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~~gg, gl. | ||
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I'm surprised Foolishness did as well as he did. I blame our failure on Zona going MIA >>. imo all the mafia going [x][1] didn't really matter did it? I mean, the first number mattered to us; the second number hardly mattered at all. gg, nj Foolishness. I'll admit, my shot on Radfield was anti-town, not hunting for SK. But it gave Foolishness a CHANCE to win at least, since there was no one anyone would lynch Radfield. | ||
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On May 11 2010 12:31 Ace wrote: Well look at it like this: Read over the Game on Day 1 and 2. Qatol was ASSIGNING roles - that's like blatant anti-town activity. You guys know nothing of his alignment, and then you willingly followed it? Nevermind that it's possible 3 people are going to be picking ahead of you. Scum also had the chance to say they know nothing of you or Qatol's alignment and you're buddying up to put a powerful role in someone's hands. Even if Qatol is scum and you were Mafia he'd have the perfect chance to call shots on who the CV hits as long as it isn't a scumbuddy. So many ways to just cause a big ruckus on Day 1 but Scum didn't pick up on it. Then it happened AGAIN with the CC situation. Sidesprang didn't even claim which sucked for scum but oh well. There were like 5 people before SS on the list, all claimed Vanilla. That means they all are telling the truth and ALL of them missed investigation roles or they are lying. Either way both of these scenarios don't mean SS = scum. Even if they are true SS can just say he didn't trust Qatol with the role and took it. Doesn't mean he is scum. Basically instead of trying to punish the town for tying picking order and role picks to alignment, the scum just sat back and let it ride. Town has no information roles and are making logical correct arguments that have tons of loopholes. If Zona would have pardoned SS(he didn't because SS didn't show up) or Darth then he also had a great argument to back him up. Likewise Foolishness could have told the town to shove it, and he'd kill whoever he wanted to after it was obvious he was CV. Town kept outting their own power roles (why?) so then he could have slammed you even further for trying to force him to RC when he didn't have to. So many ways to destroy the town but they seemed to be thinking like Scum and not thinking like Town. Well the whole CC situation was a mess since SS hardly showed. We suggested that he call out people that were before him as potential copycats, which he did, but way too late =[. Zona not showing up really messed things up too. Even while he was alive, mafia had a good chance of winning, since town would not only have to figure out Foolishness/Zona were mafia, get past the pardon, and still be alive. =[. I learned a lot this game though so I'm happy =p. | ||
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On May 11 2010 12:31 L wrote: Enraging that I woulda had the inventor but got banned. I was going to make some pretty hilarious shit. ? Bill was #1 though =p. You woulda been vanilla if you went for it. | ||
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On May 11 2010 12:39 Ace wrote: Yea I acknowledged Zona going afk screwed you over. Both scum lynches were literally down to "we have to do this because this # theory holds up" not necessarily because you did anything blatantly scummy. Ah well, I'll run this setup again albeit with a few different roles. Yeah, me dying because the numbers were convenient was pretty lame too >>. On May 11 2010 12:45 Ace wrote: Yea Foolishness I have a question...why didn't you vote for citizen? Soon as he voted for you and Korynne DIDN'T vote but posted you should have tried to sympathize. She said "this obviously makes me innocent because I could hammer and end the game now". If you took that point seriously and voted on citizen you might have had a shot. The way I would've seen that (if I was in Korynne's spot), him changing to go after citi.zen would confirm him as mafia, since he was so willing to switch targets (he had been against Korynne pretty heavily in the last few turns). Switching suddenly definitely would have been more suspicious. But yea, I think his killing Falcynn (you mentioned this earlier) was because that was the town CV vote kill, right? Although, I suppose he could have defended his going against that pick and such. Yeah, like I thought, a lot of the roles got missed. As soon as I got Day Vig, I suspected that people hadn't really gotten any roles. but whatttever. Definitely would be up for a rerun of this setup, with more active players >>. Even though I seemed inactive for a bit, I was just lurking kekeke. | ||
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On May 11 2010 16:15 Scamp wrote: I think next time it'd be a good idea to PM people and say "Hey, this is a notice that the game has started and you have one day to draft a role." I'm so used to signing up and then ignoring the thread until I get my role PM. Good thing I checked the thread an hour before the deadline, although all I protected this game was a Serial Killer. Made the mafia use a daykill on an SK, though. So silver lining. I really don't see how town was lucky the mafia killed Rad. He was clearly the person the town was looking toward for leadership at the time. That's generally why neutral parties don't go all-out on the scumhunting. On the other hand, you can't just play like a typical SK and not expect to be looked into for it. Yay town win! He would've killed them all and won. lol, I think SK is a separate win party? | ||
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On May 11 2010 17:35 Scamp wrote: I like to think that not reading the thread is still a valid excuse. I was probably being ultra-lazy but I didn't think to read the thread after receiving my first PM. I really expected to be PM-ed with the draft order when it happened. I suppose I never should have gotten that idea in the first place, but I don't think the OP ever had any information on when the draft would start either. To me the signup phase is where I care the least. It's just a bunch of people signing up or making random comments. I might check the OP to see changes or who's signed up so far, but that's about as far as I'll go until I know the game has started. There's a difference between not reading anything at all and not being sure and being lazy. Case in point: I don't think Darth read the opening post regarding the SK's win condition. Anyway, I can see how you wouldn't want to hold people's hands and badger them with unnecessary things, but I think you should also consider that if you're using an unconventional format that it's a good idea to make sure people understand what's going on. Uhh..I agree that the first day is usually the most random day, but it's also one of the most important for town. The first day is when town has to come up with a plan to, well, do stuff. Without a good plan, they are usually screwed. Not reading the thread, even early game, is not a valid excuse. Seeing as how a draft number was due at midnight on the first night, wouldn't it be a safe assumption that the draft order would be posted shortly after that? Same with roles? The fact that people didn't PM Ace a role because they didn't know is really mind-boggling to me. Like he said, it's "PICK YOUR POWER" mafia. There's gotta be a time when you pick it right? It's mentioned in the PM he sent, And I'm not a very good example to prove that people didn't read the OP or were lazy. 1) I was right o.O. The SK is a separate win party. 2) The ruling about town vs SK's win condition is very subtle. Looking through the OP again, the only way I would know about this win condition is if I read the starting town PM example which, considering I was mafia, why would I do? I assumed that it was as it is, but wasn't 100% sure. 3) It wasn't even relevant to me as a mafia player; to mafia, the SK is just another townsperson, with a super-role basically. 4) I read the SK's win condition and know that wins when he is the last man standing. I didn't read the town's win condition, which clarifies when the town wins. And I think, before you sign up for any game, you should at least read the OP. We're not kids (which isn't to say we're all 18+...). We shouldn't need our hands held. Bottom line, I think if you're going to play, you should at least read the thread regularly >_>. | ||
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On May 11 2010 18:36 Qatol wrote: After a line like that, you are never going to get away with lurking in these games ever again. I already admitted I had been lurking in this past game ^^. | ||
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kekeke. | ||
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On May 11 2010 20:24 Ace wrote: I'll host this setup after all other games are concluded. Also next time I will give Mafia 2KP. ~1 week was around the time I wanted this game to last and with 18 players + modkills on 1 KP it happened. So next time I'll give scum 2KP. Any other comments and suggestions about this setup are welcome. So far Qatol advocates Mad Hatters which means Meth Man has to be taken out. Inventor is right now looking like it will be scrapped. Don't ask for Bus Drivers because I won't put those in ^_^ Meth Man puts the fear of God into the mafia. lolol. I think if all of the town gets roles, 2KP is good. 1KP would have been tough had most of the town gotten roles like they should have. | ||
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