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On March 11 2010 10:30 Incognito wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 10:26 Versatile wrote:On March 11 2010 09:44 L wrote:On March 11 2010 09:00 Incognito wrote:
Mayor elections. I am announcing my candidacy for office.
Rolechecks: There's 1/25 GFs. But there's two known BGs who are pointless to rolecheck, so its really a 1/23 chance. Since 5 mafia can run for office and the GF can be picked after the mafia knows if they will get office, there is little point to rolechecking the mayor/pardoner. If there was one office and elections were determined randomly, there is a 20% chance of having a mafia mayor. Add another office, and your chance increases. Add a mafia busdriver, and you can't really do that. So in the end, BC's contention that elected officials have a greater chance of falling into town hands because false because the GF is picked. Which means that any mafia elected has the possibility of becoming the GF.
BG protection. As BC said, BGs should get protection if we are to have invincible elected officials. In order for us to determine impartially who the medic should protect, we need to make it random. If I announce in the thread however, it may encourage flamewheel to alter the results to screw us over (or not?!). Since we don't know who the bodyguards are yet, as long as we determine now who the medics will protect, it doesn't matter who chooses. So right now, I'm sending pms to 4 people. All four of them will contain the same information, either first or last. After elections, everybody who got a pm reveals it and medics protect which either the first or last BG based on the BG's positions on the signup list. Questions? Objections?
Vigilantes. Stay secret. Mafia bus drivers means you can't announce your hit in thread to confirm yourself.
Town-aligned Bus Driver strategies. You may think that you need to be gosu to use this role effectively. But you don't. You don't even need to know the actions to use this role. The mere threat of Bus Drivers will cause the mafia to second guess any attempts to kill prominent players. One way to use Bus Drivers effectively: Swap a prominent player with some random player who you think won't be targetted. This effectively makes the prominent player invincible for one night. If you are a bus driver, do not reveal whether or not you have used up your 2 actions. To be effective, you need to keep the mafia unaware that you could switch out prominent players at any point in the game. This means that medic lists are not necessary. Medics are free to protect the chosen BG.
Archives. For the sake of the town, please use it. It will help us sort through the inactives and will help us when you die.
About newer players getting elected: Its a nice democratic idea. But its only worked once in the past. And that was with SemiOldGuy. Other than that, the benefits of the Mayor/Pardoner positions are that you are almost impossible to kill by the mafia. The town would benefit the most if the Mayor/Pardoner were strong pro-town players. An invincible pro-town Ver or MBH is more scary than an invincible DT. Especially with this format with bus drivers. If we could get a strong player who happens to be a DT, well, then that's even better. But strong players that the mafia will be afraid of > blue roles. Over the past many games I've realized that the person who first starts pushing the GF as a method of destabilizing town is probably the GF himself. Last game, for instance, Ace made repeated reference to the fact that he wanted to 'prove himself' through shooting. It was a pretty obvious self reference. When I asked called to be put back in, without even seeing the game I told him I was killing Ace, but the game was fucked and over by that point. ermm, ace was innocent last game so that example actually goes against your argument. Ah so you must understand? What does "pushing the GF" mean?
He's trying to make you look bad, by saying that someone who accuses others of being the Godfather is usually the Godfather himself, since said person is just trying to divert suspicion so the town won't realize that it is HE who is GF.. Which doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense to me, because when the accused GF gets lynch and turns over town-aligned, won't the accuser just look like someone who cried wolf?
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On March 11 2010 10:32 Incognito wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 10:30 Versatile wrote:
all this talk about checking the mayor and pardoner is useless.
DTs: you need to decide who you think is most scummy when the election is over; mayor or pardoner. then you need to look @ the vote lists, and decide who you believe to be most scummiest there. the mafia will most likely run their GF, and at least 1 or 2 of them will vote for the GF and they'll show up as red. all of this talk about checking is useless. Maybe we should save it until after the election is over so we don't tell the mafia what to do.
agreed. we're getting ahead of ourselves.
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Keep in mind that the mafia busdriver does NOT know who the mafia are to start off, according to the rules post, so we can push aside fears that they are coordinating right now. Actually the mafia busdriver has a job just like us townies, he or she needs to figure out who the mafia are in order to coordinate with them. Of course the mafia busdriver could try to just cause havok alone, but without coordination the power is far less dangerous to the town. In fact the mafia busdriver needs to be very careful about how he or she uses the power, in case a kill gets redirected to one of his or her teammates.
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Reading the posts above, I have come to conclude that the town does indeed need a pro-town mayor/pardoner, whether they be blue or not. Therefore I propose that all the veterans make a few posts explaining their reasoning about how this game will work, and to also give the more inexperienced players (like me) someone to vote for.
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On March 11 2010 08:47 flamewheel91 wrote:
Qatol the Legal Advisor is now dead.
Fixed. 
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
On March 11 2010 10:58 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 08:47 flamewheel91 wrote:
Qatol the Legal Advisor is now dead.
Fixed.
NEVAR! Why you no like blue 
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On March 11 2010 10:47 Abenson wrote:
Reading the posts above, I have come to conclude that the town does indeed need a pro-town mayor/pardoner, whether they be blue or not. Therefore I propose that all the veterans make a few posts explaining their reasoning about how this game will work, and to also give the more inexperienced players (like me) someone to vote for.
My first post already gave a bunch of thoughts on the different roles. As for the game overall?
Well first of all, the inclusion of bus drivers means any switch means that we can't really trust the information at hand. For example, usually successful medic protections produce 99.99% confirmed townies, but if the medic notices that his protection has been switched, he can no longer trust this information, for the bus driver may have switched the prot + hit onto a mafia member.
There are few mafia members and very low KP. Expect not to have many blue roles. We're going to have to use good old fashioned behavior analysis here. Although we have plenty to talk about. Particularly the new bodyguard mechanic and bus drivers. This thread is so dead right now, its kinda disappointing. Ace?! Chezinu!?
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On March 11 2010 10:58 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 08:47 flamewheel91 wrote:
Qatol the Legal Advisor is now dead.
Fixed.
Compromise?
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^^ Aww its in spoilers. Oh well...
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
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ermm, ace was innocent last game so that example actually goes against your argument. Yeah, hence why Ace's actions were misleading. But the issue is that while he looked like the GF, he wasn't fooling anyone but the town. In the end he got shot for it.
If a member of the mafia wins mayor/pardonner, isn't it GUARANTEED that he'll be the Godfather? Not even remotely. Mafia can grab both spots, put the goon in the mayor role, have him swing around with his 3 votes for a day or 2, then have the GF pardoner gain credibility by pushing the lynch of the mayor. Then lategame comes, we're in a lylo situation and... oh shit, we can't lynch because he pardons.
The reason why they can't is the threat of having DTs check both, yet people are here saying "well, its useless to check". Wrong. checking is the threat itself, and there's a 100% chance that you find someone legit in either mayor or pardoner.
If the GF goes up, what role does he take? What if his counterpart is blue and gets confirmed through role usage? Can the GF have his team hit the BGs in order to take out the confirmed protected blue? If he does, he needs to kill both BGs or reveal a goon (or just reveals a goon), then he needs a GOOD reason for why HE isn't dead the next day.
Either way, the threat of checking both elected positions is massive, especially because if a GF doesn't run, then you have a set of DTs and protected blues that have tools to confirm each other. A medic mayor, for instance, who blocks a hit is a huge "oh shit" moment for mafia. Letting two potential blues have that position is also huge. Additionally, there's the question of 'what blue'? Who does the GF take? If he's a safe role, why would he run for mayor? If he's an active role, he needs to lie carefully and can be found out if he tries to claim.
And that's another point; Pretty much any blue that gets elected is probably going to claim immediately. So the GF can't fucking putz around.
You guys simply don't see how powerful having a blue office holder that can be checked is. Qatol was shitting bricks about it earlier, which is why the BGs are public, but we can abuse that too. Just wait, champs. Think for a bit and build a strategy given our game format; its highly abusable.
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On March 11 2010 01:58 Zona wrote:
I plan on ignoring BM for the entire game, his posts and PMs - and I suggest the town does the same, rather than wasting the first lynch.
If BM is mafia - keeping him alive will probably hurt the mafia a lot in the long run, so there's the benefit there. If BM is town - it's a waste of a lynch to get rid of him, as otherwise we could have gained more information somewhere else.
The day 1 lynch needs to be a natural vote, not based on factors external to this particular game, so that these votes later can be scrutinized for possible mafia activity.
On March 11 2010 04:15 Versatile wrote:
one thing i've noticed in these games is that there's always someone/ multiple people calling for someone to be lynch because of said person's performance in another game.
each game is different, and while someone may just really be a dumbass, i really don't see the point of deciding who to lynch before we've even had elections based on their actions in another game.
let's lynch people playing stupidly and scummy in THIS game.
BM Defenders must Die....
If BM is mafia, we kill Versatile and Zona....Agreed?
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On March 11 2010 11:05 Incognito wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 10:58 Qatol wrote:On March 11 2010 08:47 flamewheel91 wrote:
Qatol the Legal Advisor is now dead.
Fixed. Compromise?
Mmmm I think I can handle that. Just as long as the name is green!
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On March 11 2010 10:37 madnessman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 10:30 Incognito wrote:On March 11 2010 10:26 Versatile wrote:On March 11 2010 09:44 L wrote:On March 11 2010 09:00 Incognito wrote:
Mayor elections. I am announcing my candidacy for office.
Rolechecks: There's 1/25 GFs. But there's two known BGs who are pointless to rolecheck, so its really a 1/23 chance. Since 5 mafia can run for office and the GF can be picked after the mafia knows if they will get office, there is little point to rolechecking the mayor/pardoner. If there was one office and elections were determined randomly, there is a 20% chance of having a mafia mayor. Add another office, and your chance increases. Add a mafia busdriver, and you can't really do that. So in the end, BC's contention that elected officials have a greater chance of falling into town hands because false because the GF is picked. Which means that any mafia elected has the possibility of becoming the GF.
BG protection. As BC said, BGs should get protection if we are to have invincible elected officials. In order for us to determine impartially who the medic should protect, we need to make it random. If I announce in the thread however, it may encourage flamewheel to alter the results to screw us over (or not?!). Since we don't know who the bodyguards are yet, as long as we determine now who the medics will protect, it doesn't matter who chooses. So right now, I'm sending pms to 4 people. All four of them will contain the same information, either first or last. After elections, everybody who got a pm reveals it and medics protect which either the first or last BG based on the BG's positions on the signup list. Questions? Objections?
Vigilantes. Stay secret. Mafia bus drivers means you can't announce your hit in thread to confirm yourself.
Town-aligned Bus Driver strategies. You may think that you need to be gosu to use this role effectively. But you don't. You don't even need to know the actions to use this role. The mere threat of Bus Drivers will cause the mafia to second guess any attempts to kill prominent players. One way to use Bus Drivers effectively: Swap a prominent player with some random player who you think won't be targetted. This effectively makes the prominent player invincible for one night. If you are a bus driver, do not reveal whether or not you have used up your 2 actions. To be effective, you need to keep the mafia unaware that you could switch out prominent players at any point in the game. This means that medic lists are not necessary. Medics are free to protect the chosen BG.
Archives. For the sake of the town, please use it. It will help us sort through the inactives and will help us when you die.
About newer players getting elected: Its a nice democratic idea. But its only worked once in the past. And that was with SemiOldGuy. Other than that, the benefits of the Mayor/Pardoner positions are that you are almost impossible to kill by the mafia. The town would benefit the most if the Mayor/Pardoner were strong pro-town players. An invincible pro-town Ver or MBH is more scary than an invincible DT. Especially with this format with bus drivers. If we could get a strong player who happens to be a DT, well, then that's even better. But strong players that the mafia will be afraid of > blue roles. Over the past many games I've realized that the person who first starts pushing the GF as a method of destabilizing town is probably the GF himself. Last game, for instance, Ace made repeated reference to the fact that he wanted to 'prove himself' through shooting. It was a pretty obvious self reference. When I asked called to be put back in, without even seeing the game I told him I was killing Ace, but the game was fucked and over by that point. ermm, ace was innocent last game so that example actually goes against your argument. Ah so you must understand? What does "pushing the GF" mean? He's trying to make you look bad, by saying that someone who accuses others of being the Godfather is usually the Godfather himself, since said person is just trying to divert suspicion so the town won't realize that it is HE who is GF.. Which doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense to me, because when the accused GF gets lynch and turns over town-aligned, won't the accuser just look like someone who cried wolf?
No,its more that players with a certain role are more likely to ask questions about that role or how they fit into the game than other players. A player who makes a huge post about a DT plan then goes afk looks VERY much like a DT because he's doing 2 things DTs do: thinks about himself and his role as a DT, then he tries to not die. Greens generally run inactive in our games unless they're veteran players trying to run pro-town moves, or bad players trying to stave off the boredom of being plain. Greens also try to trap people in pms, but that doesn't really work well.
By contrast someone like the vet will post excessively pro-town things in a bid to get killed; Ver generally doesn't talk very much in an effort to stay alive for a few days; Last game as Vet he was active far earlier. Some other vets will attempt to claim medic or DT in an effort to get hit. This doesn't work well in our games because we shoot liars (sometimes).
I'm also running on the idea that there's going to be a good player who's GF; I haven't really seen GF given to a shitty player because they generally can't command enough respect within the mafia to have people agree. if that's the case, there are 5 main 'candidates' for GF in the game. Me, Malongo, Incog, Cobbler and Foolishness. I know I'm not, so for my personal calculations, there's a 25% chance one of these 5 is the GF. Additionally, guessing on how teams balance, given mafia's low kp and the structure of the game, I'd say that 2-3 of these players are probably mafia.
Incog and Cobbler have decided to run. That's perfectly fine and entirely expected of them. If the mafia team running is most likely to only send a GF candidate after the early talk of checks, then one of them is probably legit, and the other is probably not. Additionally, that also means that foolishness and Malongo are probably 1-1 on the legit/not ratio too.
But I'm not confirmed to people who aren't me (yet) so the actual numbers are a bit off.
But that's all conjecture, and frankly it won't matter because by night 2 we'll have all of them checked and the 1-2 goons in that group will likely be caught and the rest will join the town circle.
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dont be a pussy ^ trust that guy seems legit.
Just as i said before: i rather go with an active mayor than trusting a half active mayor that wants to go in because "its better for the town" aka im town dont let mafia take the spots. Remember last game redtooth got himself lynched by L and a group of tards simply because he didnt really wanted to be mayor. Id really love to see more newblood there but at this point its useless, so keeping my word and sticking on the Ls. On the plus side he knows that we like to lynch bad officials so he wont fuck it up unless he is purposedly doing it. This game is going to get weird if the drivers switch targets smartly, however i dont see that really happening in the first 2 days. I like Incognitos try so we are protecting at least one of the BGs.
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On March 11 2010 11:12 L wrote:Show nested quote +ermm, ace was innocent last game so that example actually goes against your argument. Yeah, hence why Ace's actions were misleading. But the issue is that while he looked like the GF, he wasn't fooling anyone but the town. In the end he got shot for it. Show nested quote +If a member of the mafia wins mayor/pardonner, isn't it GUARANTEED that he'll be the Godfather? Not even remotely. Mafia can grab both spots, put the goon in the mayor role, have him swing around with his 3 votes for a day or 2, then have the GF pardoner gain credibility by pushing the lynch of the mayor. Then lategame comes, we're in a lylo situation and... oh shit, we can't lynch because he pardons. The reason why they can't is the threat of having DTs check both, yet people are here saying "well, its useless to check". Wrong. checking is the threat itself, and there's a 100% chance that you find someone legit in either mayor or pardoner. If the GF goes up, what role does he take? What if his counterpart is blue and gets confirmed through role usage? Can the GF have his team hit the BGs in order to take out the confirmed protected blue? If he does, he needs to kill both BGs or reveal a goon (or just reveals a goon), then he needs a GOOD reason for why HE isn't dead the next day. Either way, the threat of checking both elected positions is massive, especially because if a GF doesn't run, then you have a set of DTs and protected blues that have tools to confirm each other. A medic mayor, for instance, who blocks a hit is a huge "oh shit" moment for mafia. Letting two potential blues have that position is also huge. Additionally, there's the question of 'what blue'? Who does the GF take? If he's a safe role, why would he run for mayor? If he's an active role, he needs to lie carefully and can be found out if he tries to claim. And that's another point; Pretty much any blue that gets elected is probably going to claim immediately. So the GF can't fucking putz around. You guys simply don't see how powerful having a blue office holder that can be checked is. Qatol was shitting bricks about it earlier, which is why the BGs are public, but we can abuse that too. Just wait, champs. Think for a bit and build a strategy given our game format; its highly abusable.
L seems pretty legit this game, I think I'm going to vote for him.
On checking elected officials: its kind of a damned if you do damned if you don't type of thing. We can gain SOME information from doing it even if its only the supposed roles of the officials. Originally I suggested that we don't check the pardoner because it doesn't matter, but as L points out, it can really screw us over in the late game. It might be better to check both elected officials tonight and get it over with, so we don't have to waste checks later on to confirm their roles. Its better to play safe then to lose later just because we didn't want to spend the time to make sure.
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On March 11 2010 11:28 Malongo wrote:
dont be a pussy ^ trust that guy seems legit.
Just as i said before: i rather go with an active mayor than trusting a half active mayor that wants to go in because "its better for the town" aka im town dont let mafia take the spots. Remember last game redtooth got himself lynched by L and a group of tards simply because he didnt really wanted to be mayor. Id really love to see more newblood there but at this point its useless, so keeping my word and sticking on the Ls. On the plus side he knows that we like to lynch bad officials so he wont fuck it up unless he is purposedly doing it. This game is going to get weird if the drivers switch targets smartly, however i dont see that really happening in the first 2 days. I like Incognitos try so we are protecting at least one of the BGs.
Way to make it seem like I copied you saying the word "legit"
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On March 11 2010 11:12 L wrote:Show nested quote +ermm, ace was innocent last game so that example actually goes against your argument. Yeah, hence why Ace's actions were misleading. But the issue is that while he looked like the GF, he wasn't fooling anyone but the town. In the end he got shot for it. Show nested quote +If a member of the mafia wins mayor/pardonner, isn't it GUARANTEED that he'll be the Godfather? Not even remotely. Mafia can grab both spots, put the goon in the mayor role, have him swing around with his 3 votes for a day or 2, then have the GF pardoner gain credibility by pushing the lynch of the mayor. Then lategame comes, we're in a lylo situation and... oh shit, we can't lynch because he pardons. The reason why they can't is the threat of having DTs check both, yet people are here saying "well, its useless to check". Wrong. checking is the threat itself, and there's a 100% chance that you find someone legit in either mayor or pardoner. If the GF goes up, what role does he take? What if his counterpart is blue and gets confirmed through role usage? Can the GF have his team hit the BGs in order to take out the confirmed protected blue? If he does, he needs to kill both BGs or reveal a goon (or just reveals a goon), then he needs a GOOD reason for why HE isn't dead the next day. Either way, the threat of checking both elected positions is massive, especially because if a GF doesn't run, then you have a set of DTs and protected blues that have tools to confirm each other. A medic mayor, for instance, who blocks a hit is a huge "oh shit" moment for mafia. Letting two potential blues have that position is also huge. Additionally, there's the question of 'what blue'? Who does the GF take? If he's a safe role, why would he run for mayor? If he's an active role, he needs to lie carefully and can be found out if he tries to claim. And that's another point; Pretty much any blue that gets elected is probably going to claim immediately. So the GF can't fucking putz around. You guys simply don't see how powerful having a blue office holder that can be checked is. Qatol was shitting bricks about it earlier, which is why the BGs are public, but we can abuse that too. Just wait, champs. Think for a bit and build a strategy given our game format; its highly abusable.
Uh a bit confusing here. But what happens if the GF just picks green? Nothing to prove and nothing to hide. How do we abuse that instance?
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
On March 11 2010 11:34 Incognito wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 11:12 L wrote:ermm, ace was innocent last game so that example actually goes against your argument. Yeah, hence why Ace's actions were misleading. But the issue is that while he looked like the GF, he wasn't fooling anyone but the town. In the end he got shot for it. If a member of the mafia wins mayor/pardonner, isn't it GUARANTEED that he'll be the Godfather? Not even remotely. Mafia can grab both spots, put the goon in the mayor role, have him swing around with his 3 votes for a day or 2, then have the GF pardoner gain credibility by pushing the lynch of the mayor. Then lategame comes, we're in a lylo situation and... oh shit, we can't lynch because he pardons. The reason why they can't is the threat of having DTs check both, yet people are here saying "well, its useless to check". Wrong. checking is the threat itself, and there's a 100% chance that you find someone legit in either mayor or pardoner. If the GF goes up, what role does he take? What if his counterpart is blue and gets confirmed through role usage? Can the GF have his team hit the BGs in order to take out the confirmed protected blue? If he does, he needs to kill both BGs or reveal a goon (or just reveals a goon), then he needs a GOOD reason for why HE isn't dead the next day. Either way, the threat of checking both elected positions is massive, especially because if a GF doesn't run, then you have a set of DTs and protected blues that have tools to confirm each other. A medic mayor, for instance, who blocks a hit is a huge "oh shit" moment for mafia. Letting two potential blues have that position is also huge. Additionally, there's the question of 'what blue'? Who does the GF take? If he's a safe role, why would he run for mayor? If he's an active role, he needs to lie carefully and can be found out if he tries to claim. And that's another point; Pretty much any blue that gets elected is probably going to claim immediately. So the GF can't fucking putz around. You guys simply don't see how powerful having a blue office holder that can be checked is. Qatol was shitting bricks about it earlier, which is why the BGs are public, but we can abuse that too. Just wait, champs. Think for a bit and build a strategy given our game format; its highly abusable. Uh a bit confusing here. But what happens if the GF just picks green? Nothing to prove and nothing to hide. How do we abuse that instance?
I always wondered why GF's always pick blue roles instead of green, wouldn't it make more sense to pick green because there are more of them?
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Yes, some strong players in all likelyhood will be mafia. But it is still good to have strong elected officials. Elected officials are under a lot of scrutiny. They also usually take on a very active role in town affairs. The more they're on the spotlight, the easier it is to catch them if they are mafia.
Fine. As mentioned, I don't think mayor/pardoner roles are that great for GF early game anyway, so might as well get one who leaves a trail. Make them work for it. The essential thing is the DT stay alive. As long as that is the case it's only a matter of time. Be smart DT, and stealthy!
The good part goes in the spoiler.
+ Show Spoiler +O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!
From far and wide,
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
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EPT
