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On October 24 2011 07:20 Protactinium wrote:
I am going to request 1 game bans for Mig and sinani206.
Mig breadcrumbed role PMs to syllogism, which is definitely something that is not allowed. While "no discussing role PMs" is not an explicit rule, "no posting/comparing times on role PMs" is. This ban request is certainly not unprecedented, as (bumatlarge?) was modkilled in Ace's game for breadcrumbing, and Curu was modkilled for the same in the last game (XLV). Given that Mig was playing and was aware of what was going on last game, there really should be no excuse for his behavior in this game. I propose at least a 1 game ban for him.
Ace's opinion because I'm guessing he won't post it here:
On October 24 2011 08:43 Ace wrote:
Even discussing whats in your role PM should be a 5 game ban at the minimum. Like this shit is common sense. Don't quote it, don't allude to it, don't ask "hey what is the 4th word in your role PM?", don't try and intentionally use a unique word in the role PM in casual chat, just fucking BAN PMs. God every fucking one of these PM based games have been absolute shit for the last 5 years. I don't know why you guys continue to do it. Add in a game with 3 Mafia factions that have to compete with each other + the Town for roles and you've got a disaster waiting to happen without some seriously great players.
But what do I know, I'm just some guy that's amazed Tranformers is showing on TBS and Transformers 2 is showing on FX at the same time.
My personal opinion is that it deserves at least a 3 game ban. He knew it was wrong when he was doing it (it was a problem in previous games), yet he did it anyways. I believe that merits a stern response.
Regarding Sinani, I agree with a 1 game ban. He was inactive enough to merit an inactivity modkill and I think we should treat it as if he was given one.
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Iirc it was Deconduo in closed casket mafia who said a comment about Shady Iraqis only giving him one bullet for his gun, which was a direct reference o his role PM which says Shady Iraqis gave him two bullets. Caller picked up on it because they had the same role PM.
But yeah, trying to game the system is a pretty fucked up way to try to win or gain an advantage. Unless I am using a closed set up, I generally just put the role PM's in the OP.
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On October 24 2011 11:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Iirc it was Deconduo in closed casket mafia who said a comment about Shady Iraqis only giving him one bullet for his gun, which was a direct reference o his role PM which says Shady Iraqis gave him two bullets. Caller picked up on it because they had the same role PM.
But yeah, trying to game the system is a pretty fucked up way to try to win or gain an advantage. Unless I am using a closed set up, I generally just put the role PM's in the OP.
While that's a good way to get around the problem, I still don't think that excuses what happened. People should know better.
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While breadcrumbing role PMs is, or should be, obviously against the rules, the way Mig did it didn't really affect the game as he was really vague about it. I'm a bit puzzled as to why hosts like to change role PMs from the ones they include in their OP anyway. Regardless, one game ban is still reasonable enough.
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On October 24 2011 07:20 Protactinium wrote:
I am going to request 1 game bans for Mig and sinani206.
Mig breadcrumbed role PMs to syllogism, which is definitely something that is not allowed. While "no discussing role PMs" is not an explicit rule, "no posting/comparing times on role PMs" is. This ban request is certainly not unprecedented, as (bumatlarge?) was modkilled in Ace's game for breadcrumbing, and Curu was modkilled for the same in the last game (XLV). Given that Mig was playing and was aware of what was going on last game, there really should be no excuse for his behavior in this game. I propose at least a 1 game ban for him.
sinani206 brings up an example of what seems to be happening fairly often in recent games. People join games, then after the game starts, send a PM asking to be replaced with little to no compelling reasons. I understand that sometimes something important unexpectedly comes up, but this is getting ridiculous. Reasons like "I just came back from vacation and am too busy" really don't cut it. The exemptions are there to grant leniency in serious emergency cases and should not be used liberally. In the past few games I think this leniency has been abused, and it is not fair to the hosts and players when you decide you want to be replaced without a serious excuse.
I think that because of the new trend of accepting replacements, people have taken their commitment to the game less seriously and are using replacements as an easy out. I don't think many of the people asking for replacements have ever hosted a game, but it is seriously a big headache to the host when they have to scramble on short notice to find a player to replace you. The replacement policy is not here to allow you to pass your burden off to the host when you dont want to play anymore. It is here primarily to deal with emergencies. When you sign up for a game, you are signalling your intention to play. Please take it seriously.
Lol.
For you three to ban Mig for something that isn't written precisely in the rules is so grossly hypocritical it's hilarious.
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hi im sitting out newbie mini mafia
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On October 24 2011 14:18 DropBear wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 07:20 Protactinium wrote:
I am going to request 1 game bans for Mig and sinani206.
Mig breadcrumbed role PMs to syllogism, which is definitely something that is not allowed. While "no discussing role PMs" is not an explicit rule, "no posting/comparing times on role PMs" is. This ban request is certainly not unprecedented, as (bumatlarge?) was modkilled in Ace's game for breadcrumbing, and Curu was modkilled for the same in the last game (XLV). Given that Mig was playing and was aware of what was going on last game, there really should be no excuse for his behavior in this game. I propose at least a 1 game ban for him.
sinani206 brings up an example of what seems to be happening fairly often in recent games. People join games, then after the game starts, send a PM asking to be replaced with little to no compelling reasons. I understand that sometimes something important unexpectedly comes up, but this is getting ridiculous. Reasons like "I just came back from vacation and am too busy" really don't cut it. The exemptions are there to grant leniency in serious emergency cases and should not be used liberally. In the past few games I think this leniency has been abused, and it is not fair to the hosts and players when you decide you want to be replaced without a serious excuse.
I think that because of the new trend of accepting replacements, people have taken their commitment to the game less seriously and are using replacements as an easy out. I don't think many of the people asking for replacements have ever hosted a game, but it is seriously a big headache to the host when they have to scramble on short notice to find a player to replace you. The replacement policy is not here to allow you to pass your burden off to the host when you dont want to play anymore. It is here primarily to deal with emergencies. When you sign up for a game, you are signalling your intention to play. Please take it seriously. Lol. For you three to ban Mig for something that isn't written precisely in the rules is so grossly hypocritical it's hilarious.
I´m also uncomfortable about this. If discussing role-PMs isn´t against the rules yet, then breadcrumbing them shouldn´t be either. If there´s a problem with this, then add it to the OP and let Mig off with just a warning.
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On October 24 2011 21:35 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 14:18 DropBear wrote:On October 24 2011 07:20 Protactinium wrote:
I am going to request 1 game bans for Mig and sinani206.
Mig breadcrumbed role PMs to syllogism, which is definitely something that is not allowed. While "no discussing role PMs" is not an explicit rule, "no posting/comparing times on role PMs" is. This ban request is certainly not unprecedented, as (bumatlarge?) was modkilled in Ace's game for breadcrumbing, and Curu was modkilled for the same in the last game (XLV). Given that Mig was playing and was aware of what was going on last game, there really should be no excuse for his behavior in this game. I propose at least a 1 game ban for him.
sinani206 brings up an example of what seems to be happening fairly often in recent games. People join games, then after the game starts, send a PM asking to be replaced with little to no compelling reasons. I understand that sometimes something important unexpectedly comes up, but this is getting ridiculous. Reasons like "I just came back from vacation and am too busy" really don't cut it. The exemptions are there to grant leniency in serious emergency cases and should not be used liberally. In the past few games I think this leniency has been abused, and it is not fair to the hosts and players when you decide you want to be replaced without a serious excuse.
I think that because of the new trend of accepting replacements, people have taken their commitment to the game less seriously and are using replacements as an easy out. I don't think many of the people asking for replacements have ever hosted a game, but it is seriously a big headache to the host when they have to scramble on short notice to find a player to replace you. The replacement policy is not here to allow you to pass your burden off to the host when you dont want to play anymore. It is here primarily to deal with emergencies. When you sign up for a game, you are signalling your intention to play. Please take it seriously. Lol. For you three to ban Mig for something that isn't written precisely in the rules is so grossly hypocritical it's hilarious. I´m also uncomfortable about this. If discussing role-PMs isn´t against the rules yet, then breadcrumbing them shouldn´t be either. If there´s a problem with this, then add it to the OP and let Mig off with just a warning.
Huh? You actually want a rule in the OP for this? Things like this are the reason why the OPs got too long in the first place....
1. It's common sense. Doing something like this is totally against the spirit of the game.
2. It's a PM from the host. Last time I checked, you aren't allowed to be discussing those....
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On October 24 2011 21:35 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 14:18 DropBear wrote:On October 24 2011 07:20 Protactinium wrote:
I am going to request 1 game bans for Mig and sinani206.
Mig breadcrumbed role PMs to syllogism, which is definitely something that is not allowed. While "no discussing role PMs" is not an explicit rule, "no posting/comparing times on role PMs" is. This ban request is certainly not unprecedented, as (bumatlarge?) was modkilled in Ace's game for breadcrumbing, and Curu was modkilled for the same in the last game (XLV). Given that Mig was playing and was aware of what was going on last game, there really should be no excuse for his behavior in this game. I propose at least a 1 game ban for him.
sinani206 brings up an example of what seems to be happening fairly often in recent games. People join games, then after the game starts, send a PM asking to be replaced with little to no compelling reasons. I understand that sometimes something important unexpectedly comes up, but this is getting ridiculous. Reasons like "I just came back from vacation and am too busy" really don't cut it. The exemptions are there to grant leniency in serious emergency cases and should not be used liberally. In the past few games I think this leniency has been abused, and it is not fair to the hosts and players when you decide you want to be replaced without a serious excuse.
I think that because of the new trend of accepting replacements, people have taken their commitment to the game less seriously and are using replacements as an easy out. I don't think many of the people asking for replacements have ever hosted a game, but it is seriously a big headache to the host when they have to scramble on short notice to find a player to replace you. The replacement policy is not here to allow you to pass your burden off to the host when you dont want to play anymore. It is here primarily to deal with emergencies. When you sign up for a game, you are signalling your intention to play. Please take it seriously. Lol. For you three to ban Mig for something that isn't written precisely in the rules is so grossly hypocritical it's hilarious. I´m also uncomfortable about this. If discussing role-PMs isn´t against the rules yet, then breadcrumbing them shouldn´t be either. If there´s a problem with this, then add it to the OP and let Mig off with just a warning.
4. Comparing role PM times to determine roles.
5. Posting screenshots of your inbox.
6. Posting any PM you receive from a host.
It falls under 4/6. Discussing role-PMs has always been considered illegal. Else people would have been asking for role PMs from people in every single game. You can note that usually hosts say you are not allowed to post anything from your role PM. People have been banned/modkilled for it before so it's not the same at all to the Prot situation since account sharing hadn't really been ever discussed as an issue.
@Dropbear, drop the issue, the prot thing was handled and now it's done with, I don't see the need to bring it up again. Its not written precisely but it's alluded to a bunch of times that PM breadcrumbing/posting is wrong. Compared to the NOT WRITTEN AT ALL situation of account sharing it can be seen that the situations are wildly different. Mig is not only assistant mod in this forum but he also knew what he did was wrong
[17:30] <kitaman27> [21:52] <kitaman27> what in the skype conv made him think you were town?
[17:30] <kitaman27> [21:53] <Mig__> hm well honestly
[17:30] <kitaman27> [21:53] <Mig__> the town win con is a little different than op and I kind of breadcrumbed it to him in skype I probably shouldnt probably not fair
[17:30] <kitaman27> [21:56] <Mig__> and yea I wasnt really thinking when I did it also it doesnt prove I am town if hosts send an example pm to scum teams
[17:30] <kitaman27> [21:56] <Mig__> but I really shouldnt be breadcrumbing anything probably
He should be held to a high standard.
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I think we need to draw the line between breadcrumbing the role and breadcrumbing the role PM... Because I think sometimes it's really useful to do that. I think referring to something exact in the role PM should be forbidden, but hinting that You have a weapon won't hurt anyone, right?
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hosts should be posting example role pms in the op or giving them to scum. this kind of thing breaks games.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Three games seems too severe for an issue that has happened 10+ times in the last year without resulting any bans. One game ban seems sufficient for the mistake. Perhaps we could discuss lengthening the standard ban for future occurances of this type.
Posting example role pms in the OP isn't always practical if the setup is closed. A host could post the standard town role pm, but suppose there are two "super cool vigilantes" in the setup. If the host doesn't want to reveal the role at the beginning of the game, they shouldn't have to worry about the two vigilantes confirming themselves to each other using the wording of the pm. The host could try to write unique role pms for each individual, but that's a lot of extra work.
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On October 24 2011 23:14 redFF wrote:
hosts should be posting example role pms in the op or giving them to scum. this kind of thing breaks games.
Yes hosts might want to do this but again, this is a problem with PLAYERS. It's a common sense thing that shouldn't have to result in more work for the hosts/mods since the players can just choose not to mention anything about win conditions or PM breadcrumbs and such. Hosting is enough work as it is so I don't see why it needs to be more work for players who are basically coming in to enjoy the product of said work.
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On October 24 2011 23:27 kitaman27 wrote:
Three games seems too severe for an issue that has happened 10+ times in the last year without resulting any bans. One game ban seems sufficient for the mistake. Perhaps we could discuss lengthening the standard ban for future occurances of this type.
Posting example role pms in the OP isn't always practical if the setup is closed. A host could post the standard town role pm, but suppose there are two "super cool vigilantes" in the setup. If the host doesn't want to reveal the role at the beginning of the game, they shouldn't have to worry about the two vigilantes confirming themselves to each other using the wording of the pm. The host could try to write unique role pms for each individual, but that's a lot of extra work.
The only reason it didn't result in bans before is because the hosts never requested bans for this before. It isn't really fair to use that history unless you want each previous host to discuss situationally why they didn't request a ban for this behavior in their game and then have us go back and decide whether that decision was appropriate or not.
On October 24 2011 23:00 Kurumi wrote:
I think we need to draw the line between breadcrumbing the role and breadcrumbing the role PM... Because I think sometimes it's really useful to do that. I think referring to something exact in the role PM should be forbidden, but hinting that You have a weapon won't hurt anyone, right?
And this is where we are drawing the line. It isn't like you can't still roleclaim or post the results of a rolecheck or whatever. The situations are pretty obviously different.
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On October 24 2011 23:00 Kurumi wrote:
I think we need to draw the line between breadcrumbing the role and breadcrumbing the role PM... Because I think sometimes it's really useful to do that. I think referring to something exact in the role PM should be forbidden, but hinting that You have a weapon won't hurt anyone, right?
There is no such thing as breadcrumbing a role. You can't do that. You can breadcrumb results of an investigation. That's all.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On October 25 2011 05:15 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 23:00 Kurumi wrote:
I think we need to draw the line between breadcrumbing the role and breadcrumbing the role PM... Because I think sometimes it's really useful to do that. I think referring to something exact in the role PM should be forbidden, but hinting that You have a weapon won't hurt anyone, right? There is no such thing as breadcrumbing a role. You can't do that. You can breadcrumb results of an investigation. That's all.
Suppose you're a watcher and on day one you work the word watch into a post using the first capital letter of each sentence. Suppose later on at LYLO you role claim revealing a scum and point back to the day one post to show that you aren't coming up with a convienet result. Is that something that would be allowed?
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On October 25 2011 05:48 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 05:15 Ace wrote:On October 24 2011 23:00 Kurumi wrote:
I think we need to draw the line between breadcrumbing the role and breadcrumbing the role PM... Because I think sometimes it's really useful to do that. I think referring to something exact in the role PM should be forbidden, but hinting that You have a weapon won't hurt anyone, right? There is no such thing as breadcrumbing a role. You can't do that. You can breadcrumb results of an investigation. That's all. Suppose you're a watcher and on day one you work the word watch into a post using the first capital letter of each sentence. Suppose later on at LYLO you role claim revealing a scum and point back to the day one post to show that you aren't coming up with a convienet result. Is that something that would be allowed?
Kitaman nailed what I was thinking about.
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Here is my perspective about Mig's situation, for what Its worth. These are the facts of the situation unless I am mistaken:
Mig breadcrumbed his role. In PMs during the game he even acknowledges that it was wrong. People arguing about the ambiguity of the breadcrumb have made points that stuff like this has gotten away before, and that it wasn't a direct post of the role he received, are correct in there observations. However, It does not change the fact that the spirit of the rule was broken.
IMO a ban in this situation is justifiable.
That said, I feel a 3 game ban on Mig is a bit much. He has never been Banned before. His intent was not of trying to break the game or ruin anyone's fun. It probably just slipped out in a way that he did not intend. this is of course all speculation at this point, and it would be great if Mig would speak up about his perspective before giving out the ban, as it would be good in judging his actions and intentions.
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United States4714 Posts
While talking with syllo I was looking at my role pm and saw that the win con was worded differently and mentioned that to him. Didn't even really think about it when I did it. So just a dumb mistake on my part.
It is my own fault so 1/3/5 game bans whatever people want I won't argue against. I would request tho that a decision be made quickly if possible, so that I am not sitting in limbo for an extended period of time.
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On October 25 2011 05:48 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 05:15 Ace wrote:On October 24 2011 23:00 Kurumi wrote:
I think we need to draw the line between breadcrumbing the role and breadcrumbing the role PM... Because I think sometimes it's really useful to do that. I think referring to something exact in the role PM should be forbidden, but hinting that You have a weapon won't hurt anyone, right? There is no such thing as breadcrumbing a role. You can't do that. You can breadcrumb results of an investigation. That's all. Suppose you're a watcher and on day one you work the word watch into a post using the first capital letter of each sentence. Suppose later on at LYLO you role claim revealing a scum and point back to the day one post to show that you aren't coming up with a convienet result. Is that something that would be allowed?
Yes it would be allowed but it would be incredibly stupid. Nothing stops Scum from doing this either. However if you breadcrumb the result of your Watcher actions and then die, your flip will confirm your posts assuming people go back to read.
You don't breadcrumb your role because nothing stops the other side from doing it. I hope no one does this.
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EPT
