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On August 06 2012 17:36 syllogism wrote:
How exactly do players punish for repeated and intentional bad play/playing against win con? RoL clearly didn't care at all and knowing that you are going to die is no excuse for his play (in fact, he didn't even know as the nuke could have been dud as well). He hasn't even bothered to apologize or explain why he did what he did.
Bad play =/= playing against your win condition. Please don't equate them in this way. They're not even close to the same thing. Playing against your win condition means you are INTENTIONALLY trying to sabotage your team's chances of winning. To be punishable, it really has to be blatantly obvious (doing something like posting the mafia list as scum). However, when it is punishable, it is usually cause for a permaban. It is serious. Please stop throwing around accusations of this behavior when they aren't accurate.
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I said intentional bad play, which is the same thing. He hasn't been here to explain why he would do what he did and it is quite difficult to come up with a reason that doesn't amount to "I didn't care at that point". You may see this as a minor issue, but I disagree. It certainly can and should be punishable as I find it much more game destroying than, say, forgetting to vote, accidentally editing or posting too much. I can and will keep equating this kind of behavior while also recognizing that there are different degrees of this sort of behavior, thanks.
Certainly I am not the one who decides the rules, but I am voicing my opinion and I know I am not alone in my thinking.
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Blazinghand
United States25555 Posts
Was it a dick move? Yeah. Definitely. But was it playing against his wincon? No. Not at all.
People say it was bad play, but I'm not sure it really is the same thing, though. Lots of bad play is by nature intentional-- such as not posting as much as you should since you'd rather go out to a baseball game, or lurking for 15 hours and making a half-assed read because you were at your own birthday party. Did you CHOOSE to play bad? Yeah, sure. But on the other hand, that doesn't mean you played against your win-con. You just played sub-optimally, and could have played better.
Lets say you're in a game and someone is pushing a lynch on you, and you think he's town, but you get mad and instead of taking time to think through things, you OMGUS him. Are you intentionally playing bad? Yes, you're mad! But you're not trying to lose, you're just getting emotional and not letting yourself calm down.
I think playing against your wincon is limited to a few things: claiming scum as scum without it helping your team somehow, using the scum kp that you're delivering to shoot your scumbuddies, outing your scumbuddies on purpose in-thread, in a way that can't help (not by bussing, is what I'm saying). As town you can do it only with great difficulty, since you're the uninformed minority.
In fact, if you think about it, at the end of D1 in that game, a lot of people thought Kurumi was scum after the fake nuke failed. The reason is, the fake nuke puts a HUGE amount of pressure on someone, scum or town. As town, you get mad, and try to do what you can before you die. As scum your goal is actually just to not give anything away, so you clam up since you know you're dead. Although this didn't turn out to be true, a fake nuke can straight-up out scum.
Did RoL do little else useful D1? Sure. Is he guilty of playing against his wincon? I don't think so. What if Kurumi had been scum, and his scummy response to the fake nuke led to a scum-lynch D2? We wouldn't be talking about this at all. We'd think "hey, RoL got lucky. Good use of the fake nuke, given he was dying"
I think RoL does NOT deserve punishment for the usage of his fake nuke. It was a dick move, imo, but it was not playing against his wincon. You can be a dick and it's not against the rules.
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United States22154 Posts
On August 07 2012 01:50 syllogism wrote:
I said intentional bad play, which is the same thing. He hasn't been here to explain why he would do what he did and it is quite difficult to come up with a reason that doesn't amount to "I didn't care at that point". You may see this as a minor issue, but I disagree. It certainly can and should be punishable as I find it much more game destroying than, say, forgetting to vote, accidentally editing or posting too much. I can and will keep equating this kind of behavior while also recognizing that there are different degrees of this sort of behavior, thanks.
Certainly I am not the one who decides the rules, but I am voicing my opinion and I know I am not alone in my thinking.
Banning for playing poorly is a terrible idea.
Where do you draw the line? Oh, he only posted 6 times day 1, thats not as active as I like, so he's playing against his wincon! Oh, he vigied the guy who accused him, that was OMGUS not good play! Ban him! Oh, he fakeclaimed cop as scum, when there was no reason to! Ban him!
Correcting bad play is the responsibility of the player base, by policy lynching/viging and exerting pressure. Hosts can also use their discretion to help weed out "bad" players if they wish to run high level games.
Quoting myself:
The purpose of the banlist is these two things
1.) Bar inactive players from playing. Inactivity is defined as posting X amount of times per cycle (X is defined by the host) and voting every cycle.
2.) Punish people who break the rules of the game, as stated in the OP, as those rules are there to ensure both fairness and fun for everyone. The point of the "Play to win" clause is to have a catchall for things that clearly break the spirit of the game or sabotage it (Claiming mafia day 1, outing yourself a sk for giggles, etc), but aren't spelled out
Elaborating on #2, the reason we can do this is because the rules are spelled out, in detail. I can hardly measure the amount of "effort" a player puts into a game and judge based on that, is a player who misses his teams last minute vote switch playing poorly? How about one who only analyzes voting lists but still finds scum?
We cannot ban people based on some metric of "effort",either talk with players you think are playing poorly *before* their game starts and ask them to do better/not dick around (I know I've done that when hosting games when players who tend to troll too much sign up), or find an alternate method of getting them not to play poorly, or start enacting policy lynches/vigis.
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I'm not talking about effort. There was some talk about warning kurumi for randomly nuking someone, and RoL is in a very similar position, except he has not explained his actions nor did he redeem himself by actually playing the game he accepted an invite for. Once again sometimes a clear distinction can be made between bad play, which is completely acceptable and I am also guilty of that all the time, and play that can only be explained if the person in question is intentionally acting in a manner that he knows is against his win con. Sometimes this kind of behavior can be excused due to the exact circumstances, sometimes it should not be.
Policy lynching/vigging does not correct bad play when the player in question does not care about the game or otherwise doesn't considering dying a punishment.
But yes, I am fully that aware you are never going to warn or ban people for this kind of behavior so might as well drop this.
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As another option, you can always PM the host and request that they not allow a specific person into their game. The hosts always have discretion to disallow anyone they want from playing. However, this simply isn't something which is banworthy.
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Honestly I do not want to exclude anyone, so I am never going to make such a request. There is also always the option of not signing up rather than denying someone else the opportunity to play. I just think it would be useful if this kind of behavior was at least frowned upon. I have absolutely nothing against RoL and he seems like a very nice person. I may complain about his activity, but I'm sure he genuinely doesn't have time. I did not even suggest that it was ban worthy.
e: and my guess is that RoL simply didn't read anything and thus didn't even know people considered Kurumi confirmed mafia based on the sandroba pm trap.
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Eh, RoL is not the day 1 type of guy. Being nuked by me did not help either. He isn't dodging discussion, he probably has no idea it is happening. If anything, I can take the blame for his play. People should ask him two times about his participation in the games though, because he tends to underperform.
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You are allowed to play against your wincondition. As long as you don't admit that that is what you were doing.
+ Show Spoiler [For instance] +You are town. All town have day shots and mafia do not.
Is there a player that asked you to let him post once the day begins? Is is lylo? Can said player do absolutely nothing if they are mafia? Is said player asleep? Is it lylo?
Do you:
A) Ignore the repeated posts that remind you that there is no risk leaving said player alive
B) Ignore that it's lylo
C) Shoot the most active player in the thread
D) All of the above
You are mafia.
Are you playing and talking to your mafia team? Are you being accused of being inactive in this thread which you have a history of doing as scum?
Do you:
A) Stop lurking and play?
B) Continue lurking?
C) Promise your team that you will be more active and talk extensively with them
D) Convince your team mate that the thread is spreading false meta and that you are not inactive as scum?
E) Argue with the host about the set-up for days
F) options B), C), D) & E)
Having taken option F it looks as if your mafia team have gone all in to secure a mislynch on Toadesstern which will win them the game. There are still a bunch of players that are suspicious of you but there are begining to forget why.
Do you:
A) Not draw attention to yourself
B) Start a stupid argument and remind everyone just how scummy you look ensuring that you arnd your team get lynched
You are town!
Having signed up for a game and not yet posted anything of any value to anyone and facing pressure from the thread to play the damn game,
Do you:
A) Vote for yourself
B) Lurk more
C) Post to indicate that you are reading the thread but make no effort to engage in the game
D) Troll the thread
E) All of the above
You are town!
Congratulations! You have made it to be Emperor and wha't's more the scum have been dropping like stock prices in late 1929! You have a way to 100% secure town's win.
Do you:
A) Take it
B) Take it
C) Take it
D) Take it
E) Take it
F) You seriously managed to not select any of the above? Then why don't you mess around and throw it away?
Oh no! You have just been nuked! But your role has fake nuke and there is a chance that the nuke is not real. There is also evidence that implicates the person that nuked you.
Do you:
A) Give up
B) Play a bit
C) Nuke the player that the thread was going to lynch allowing that player to survive another day
You are a DT.
Why don't you randomly voteswitch to layabout causing him to die after not reading his posts and then spending multiple posts bashing his play and insulting him even though it was clear from your very first post about him that you had not read his posts. Why don't you then mess up a roleclaim and make everyone want to quit and kill themselves? And while you are at it why don't you continue to talk to the 3rd party player who is known to have a wincon that does not support yours?
You are NOT allowed to get mad at other people for deliberately playing against their win-con, shitting over the thread or ruining your games. You are not allowed to be just as rude as other people have been and gotten away with being. That is bannable.
At a very basic level all mafia games are about town trying to kill the mafia and the mafia trying to kill town. Since players on both teams are trying to pursue these goals they will act in a variety of ways to help them to win. The enitre game is about looking at what people are doing and why they are doing it. If people don't try to win and just do whatever they feel like there there is no game. Just shouting and flipping a biased coin. That isn't fun.
You can't expect players to punish bad play because time and time again they have proven that they are unwilling to do so and because killing players for being bad gets in the way of killing mafia. Nobody is willing to make the short term sacrifice in the hopes that the standard of play might improve.
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On August 07 2012 08:47 layabout wrote:You are allowed to play against your wincondition. As long as you don't admit that that is what you were doing. + Show Spoiler [For instance] +You are town. All town have day shots and mafia do not.
Is there a player that asked you to let him post once the day begins? Is is lylo? Can said player do absolutely nothing if they are mafia? Is said player asleep? Is it lylo?
Do you:
A) Ignore the repeated posts that remind you that there is no risk leaving said player alive
B) Ignore that it's lylo
C) Shoot the most active player in the thread
D) All of the above
You are mafia.
Are you playing and talking to your mafia team? Are you being accused of being inactive in this thread which you have a history of doing as scum?
Do you:
A) Stop lurking and play?
B) Continue lurking?
C) Promise your team that you will be more active and talk extensively with them
D) Convince your team mate that the thread is spreading false meta and that you are not inactive as scum?
E) Argue with the host about the set-up for days
F) options B), C), D) & E)
Having taken option F it looks as if your mafia team have gone all in to secure a mislynch on Toadesstern which will win them the game. There are still a bunch of players that are suspicious of you but there are begining to forget why.
Do you:
A) Not draw attention to yourself
B) Start a stupid argument and remind everyone just how scummy you look ensuring that you arnd your team get lynched
You are town!
Having signed up for a game and not yet posted anything of any value to anyone and facing pressure from the thread to play the damn game,
Do you:
A) Vote for yourself
B) Lurk more
C) Post to indicate that you are reading the thread but make no effort to engage in the game
D) Troll the thread
E) All of the above
You are town!
Congratulations! You have made it to be Emperor and wha't's more the scum have been dropping like stock prices in late 1929! You have a way to 100% secure town's win.
Do you:
A) Take it
B) Take it
C) Take it
D) Take it
E) Take it
F) You seriously managed to not select any of the above? Then why don't you mess around and throw it away?
Oh no! You have just been nuked! But your role has fake nuke and there is a chance that the nuke is not real. There is also evidence that implicates the person that nuked you.
Do you:
A) Give up
B) Play a bit
C) Nuke the player that the thread was going to lynch allowing that player to survive another day
You are a DT.
Why don't you randomly voteswitch to layabout causing him to die after not reading his posts and then spending multiple posts bashing his play and insulting him even though it was clear from your very first post about him that you had not read his posts. Why don't you then mess up a roleclaim and make everyone want to quit and kill themselves? And while you are at it why don't you continue to talk to the 3rd party player who is known to have a wincon that does not support yours?
You are NOT allowed to get mad at other people for deliberately playing against their win-con, shitting over the thread or ruining your games. You are not allowed to be just as rude as other people have been and gotten away with being. That is bannable. At a very basic level all mafia games are about town trying to kill the mafia and the mafia trying to kill town. Since players on both teams are trying to pursue these goals they will act in a variety of ways to help them to win. The enitre game is about looking at what people are doing and why they are doing it. If people don't try to win and just do whatever they feel like there there is no game. Just shouting and flipping a biased coin. That isn't fun. You can't expect players to punish bad play because time and time again they have proven that they are unwilling to do so and because killing players for being bad gets in the way of killing mafia. Nobody is willing to make the short term sacrifice in the hopes that the standard of play might improve.
Im pretty sure that if im on the mafia team, and I had a team member giving our scum list to people, I would have a right to be mad.
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United States22154 Posts
On August 07 2012 08:47 layabout wrote:You are allowed to play against your wincondition. As long as you don't admit that that is what you were doing. + Show Spoiler [For instance] +You are town. All town have day shots and mafia do not.
Is there a player that asked you to let him post once the day begins? Is is lylo? Can said player do absolutely nothing if they are mafia? Is said player asleep? Is it lylo?
Do you:
A) Ignore the repeated posts that remind you that there is no risk leaving said player alive
B) Ignore that it's lylo
C) Shoot the most active player in the thread
D) All of the above
You are mafia.
Are you playing and talking to your mafia team? Are you being accused of being inactive in this thread which you have a history of doing as scum?
Do you:
A) Stop lurking and play?
B) Continue lurking?
C) Promise your team that you will be more active and talk extensively with them
D) Convince your team mate that the thread is spreading false meta and that you are not inactive as scum?
E) Argue with the host about the set-up for days
F) options B), C), D) & E)
Having taken option F it looks as if your mafia team have gone all in to secure a mislynch on Toadesstern which will win them the game. There are still a bunch of players that are suspicious of you but there are begining to forget why.
Do you:
A) Not draw attention to yourself
B) Start a stupid argument and remind everyone just how scummy you look ensuring that you arnd your team get lynched
You are town!
Having signed up for a game and not yet posted anything of any value to anyone and facing pressure from the thread to play the damn game,
Do you:
A) Vote for yourself
B) Lurk more
C) Post to indicate that you are reading the thread but make no effort to engage in the game
D) Troll the thread
E) All of the above
You are town!
Congratulations! You have made it to be Emperor and wha't's more the scum have been dropping like stock prices in late 1929! You have a way to 100% secure town's win.
Do you:
A) Take it
B) Take it
C) Take it
D) Take it
E) Take it
F) You seriously managed to not select any of the above? Then why don't you mess around and throw it away?
Oh no! You have just been nuked! But your role has fake nuke and there is a chance that the nuke is not real. There is also evidence that implicates the person that nuked you.
Do you:
A) Give up
B) Play a bit
C) Nuke the player that the thread was going to lynch allowing that player to survive another day
You are a DT.
Why don't you randomly voteswitch to layabout causing him to die after not reading his posts and then spending multiple posts bashing his play and insulting him even though it was clear from your very first post about him that you had not read his posts. Why don't you then mess up a roleclaim and make everyone want to quit and kill themselves? And while you are at it why don't you continue to talk to the 3rd party player who is known to have a wincon that does not support yours?
You are NOT allowed to get mad at other people for deliberately playing against their win-con, shitting over the thread or ruining your games. You are not allowed to be just as rude as other people have been and gotten away with being. That is bannable. At a very basic level all mafia games are about town trying to kill the mafia and the mafia trying to kill town. Since players on both teams are trying to pursue these goals they will act in a variety of ways to help them to win. The enitre game is about looking at what people are doing and why they are doing it. If people don't try to win and just do whatever they feel like there there is no game. Just shouting and flipping a biased coin. That isn't fun. You can't expect players to punish bad play because time and time again they have proven that they are unwilling to do so and because killing players for being bad gets in the way of killing mafia. Nobody is willing to make the short term sacrifice in the hopes that the standard of play might improve.
1.) Being angry is fine, flaming is not.
2.) Playing poorly is not playing against your wincondition. Trying to have fun is also not playing against your wincondition. We have the benefit of hindsight, sometimes in the heat of the moment you do stupid things. I remember someone (I forget who) who was annoyed at the game and rnged who he shot as a vigi. Its really easy to say after the game is over, DOH! SHOOTING A FAKE NUKE WAS DUMB! but at the time other factors come into play.
At the end of the day, mafia is a game, which people play to have *fun* sometimes that means they won't play as optimally as you'd like.
Honestly, I get the feeling that you are extremely burntout from playing mafia, remember that at the end of the day this is a game, if its causing you anger and stress, take a break. If its no fun for you, you *should* step back and sit out a few games. Its what I did when mafia became more work than fun for me.
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United States22154 Posts
1.) PM the host of your game if a player is being problematic/misbehaving, and explain your issues with the player to them.
2.) Bans/warns are only handled post game and usually only at the request of the host.
3.) We don't discuss ongoing games here.
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Ok, seriously, read the fucking stickies all the way through.
First it was hosting, now ban thread. If you want to play here you need to read the rules, which is apparently something you're incapable of.
READ. ALL. STICKY. THREADS.
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Way of punishing players for playing badly? BM will always be a lynch candidate D1, unless he learns to play town better. VE went through a period of getting lynched/shot as town at the start of the game for playing terribly. Sure, in the short term this is not good if BM/VE is town (sorry you two, you were the examples that came to mind immediately). However, it is even LESS fun for these players. Getting lynched as town is not a good feeling and generally encourages people to step up their play. VE has been a lot better in his more recent games and he hasn't claimed medic on D1 in quite a while now 
@layabout: I know from first-hand experience that in one of those games you mention there was no deliberate play against the player's wincon. Mistakes and suboptimal play happen unintentionally. Modkilling everybody for playing suboptimally or making mistakes will not make the game any more fun for anybody; regardless of how stupid you think the mistakes are (especially with 20/20 hindsight).
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Standard inactivity ban for MrMedic for his inactivity in Newbie Mini Mafia XXII.
I'll look into JingleHell's behavior at some point soon and give my opinions on it, but I doubt that it's worth anything more than a warning.
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I'm going to point out that anyone complaining about how mean I am probably shouldn't make 85% of his posts provocative complaints about me ignoring him, as my defense regarding Shady.
I replaced into a bad position at Marv's request, PMed. Even in the host QT, I spotted this regarding the bit that convinced them I was scum...
ghost_403 08-08-2012 09:45 AM ET (US) JingleHell: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15682271 > As per üsh (think first syllable of usual, the way Barney Stinson would do it. also, this QT needs more HIMYM), JH jumps into the game accusing someone. It's not a bad case either. I really didn't like Shady's post count post earlier in the game. This is a great way to establish innocence early on, especially as a replacement.
From that post on, however, the entire town WIFOM'd literally everything I did into me being scum. They dismissed everything I said, blew off my massive contribution to the two scum I made huge cases on, pushing voteswings despite their inclination to chase confirmation bias on me.
I took constant sniping about my "bad" and "terrible" play, and had constant complaints about not posting enough analysis.
They wouldn't let me ignore their sniping at me, and then when I got sick of it and fired back, Shady brought a complaint here. Before the game was over.
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Blazinghand
United States25555 Posts
The issue isn't whether or not you were unfairly being pushed, the issue is whether or not you violated behavior rules in the game. If people played sub-optimally (or highly optimally, if they were scum) and were pressuring you, that's not an excuse to insult people and engender hatred. I know they really got your goat, but that's how it is. That being said, I don't think there will be a push for a warning or a ban. I don't see Ghost in here requesting a ban for you, so there's no need to worry for now.
E: and unless Ghost does, let's keep this contained to the XXII postgame area. All this spillover into the Ban thread is embarrassing, honestly
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Requesting standard ban to Axero for repeatedly talking about the game with another player outside the thread in Newbie Mini Mafia XXIII.
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United States22154 Posts
On August 14 2012 09:43 prplhz wrote:
Requesting standard ban to Axero for repeatedly talking about the game with another player outside the thread in Newbie Mini Mafia XXIII.
Sure
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EPT
