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On May 13 2015 04:53 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 04:31 AlterKot wrote:
The interesting stat to me is the blueside/redside - SKT went 8-1 on blueside (only lost their last game) and 2-4 on redside (only won against Beskitas and AHQ). Makes me wonder if they could lose to Fnatic and EDG in groupstage if they didn't get the cointosses, and then maybe not even get to the final if they weren't the higher seed? Fnatic went 4-1 on blueside (lost to AHQ) and 0-5 on redside, EDG: 7-0 blueside, 3-3 on redside (all lost to SKT but they didnt play against Fnatic on redside). Stats look even worse if we take AHQ, Beskitas and TSM out of equasion. Pretty crazy. SKT went 3-4 on red side though and 8-2 on blue side.
2 red wins in group stage
2 red losses against FNC
2 red losses against EDG
3 blue wins in group stage
3 blue wins against Fnatic
2 blue wins against EDG
1 blue loss against EDG
Also are you suggesting that there's definitely no reason why Sivir had low winrate and winrates are a meaningless stat? Wonderful pls
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On May 13 2015 05:01 AlterKot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 04:53 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On May 13 2015 04:31 AlterKot wrote:
The interesting stat to me is the blueside/redside - SKT went 8-1 on blueside (only lost their last game) and 2-4 on redside (only won against Beskitas and AHQ). Makes me wonder if they could lose to Fnatic and EDG in groupstage if they didn't get the cointosses, and then maybe not even get to the final if they weren't the higher seed? Fnatic went 4-1 on blueside (lost to AHQ) and 0-5 on redside, EDG: 7-0 blueside, 3-3 on redside (all lost to SKT but they didnt play against Fnatic on redside). Stats look even worse if we take AHQ, Beskitas and TSM out of equasion. Pretty crazy. SKT went 3-4 on red side though and 8-2 on blue side. 2 red wins in group stage 2 red losses against FNC 2 red losses against EDG 3 blue wins in group stage 3 blue wins against Fnatic 2 blue wins against EDG 1 blue loss against EDG Also are you suggesting that there's definitely no reason why Sivir had low winrate and winrates are a meaningless stat? Wonderful pls
They had only 1 blue side win against EDG, in first game.
Bang's Ezreal win was from red side, their only win in playoffs on red.
Bang went 0-4 on Sivir in playoffs, Sivir was 0-5 in SKT-FNC, etc.
Does it mean that Fnatic can't play with Sivir or Bang is bad Sivir? Hell no.
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OK reversing those wins in games 3-4 of the final actually changes a lot to me.
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On May 13 2015 02:52 Fusilero wrote:I've personally managed to reconcile the results of EDG vs SKT and Fnatic vs SKT with all three of them are equally trash and no one is good at league of legends. At least it's coherent :> Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 02:51 ticklishmusic wrote:On May 13 2015 02:48 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 13 2015 02:25 ticklishmusic wrote:
I'm glad that AHQ looked strong during MSI. If they'd drawn against anyone but EDG, they would've gotten second place (their semi match was the real final though, lets be real). I think it points to SEA having pretty decent strength though, maybe on par with Korea considering the talent drain from there.
After seeing SKT and the SKT-EDG finals, it's pretty obvious that AHQ would've been demolished vs. SKT almost as hard as vs. EDG. AHQ would've beat Fnatic in a Bo5 but that would've required a SKT-EDG semifinals which wasn't happening. The difference between top TW (SEA is a separate region) and mid-TW is also huge, Korea is without a doubt significantly stronger than TW as a whole. The two regions should re-merge (IIRC the Garena split for Hong Kong and Taiwan was what, a year ago?). The two regions are too small of ecosystems separately IMO. Vietnam is probably better than bottom half of LMS maybe but outside of that it'd be pretty awful if we were sacrificing spots so the pinoys can go 0-10 some more ~_~
Just call them challenger teams hue
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
skt tends to play execution heavy, fragile strategies that gets unwinded when they get fucked early game. explains some of the wide divergence between red/blue because of the way bengi performed was pretty critical to their early game.
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On May 13 2015 02:53 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 02:51 ticklishmusic wrote:On May 13 2015 02:48 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 13 2015 02:25 ticklishmusic wrote:
I'm glad that AHQ looked strong during MSI. If they'd drawn against anyone but EDG, they would've gotten second place (their semi match was the real final though, lets be real). I think it points to SEA having pretty decent strength though, maybe on par with Korea considering the talent drain from there.
After seeing SKT and the SKT-EDG finals, it's pretty obvious that AHQ would've been demolished vs. SKT almost as hard as vs. EDG. AHQ would've beat Fnatic in a Bo5 but that would've required a SKT-EDG semifinals which wasn't happening. The difference between top TW (SEA is a separate region) and mid-TW is also huge, Korea is without a doubt significantly stronger than TW as a whole. The two regions should re-merge (IIRC the Garena split for Hong Kong and Taiwan was what, a year ago?). The two regions are too small of ecosystems separately IMO. A re-consolidated SEA/TW will likely be stronger than the LCS regions, whereas right now LCS is probably a bit better overall. Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 02:52 Fusilero wrote:
I've personally managed to reconcile the results of EDG vs SKT and Fnatic vs SKT with all three of them are equally trash and no one is good at league of legends. At least it's coherent :> Fits nicely into the EVERYONE IS A FRAUD narrative.
I'd like to think of TSM's implosion following LimpingGoat's proclamations as the cherry on top of me calling SKT frauds. You can't really get sweeter than that in one tourney.
+ Show Spoiler +Full disclosure: I hope SKT gets their shit in order, but I ain't counting on it.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On May 13 2015 03:46 Caiada wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 03:27 oneofthem wrote:On May 13 2015 02:39 Azarkon wrote:On May 12 2015 12:34 oneofthem wrote:
i think it's easy to tell that the LPL has improved greatly, and that this improvement has been greater as the season went on. In that case, EU LCS has to have also improved greatly for the results to be coherent. Otherwise, it isn't logical that Fnatic was able to achieve 2-3 vs. a weakened LCK while EDG was only able to achieve 3-2 vs. a weakened LCK despite LPL improving greatly. And to think people - including Monte - were saying EU LCS was trash and had regressed because of their chaotic & messy play style. Looks to me the regions with chaotic and messy play styles - ie EU LCS and LPL - out-performed the regions with the slow-paced, methodical styles this MSI. It isn't the first time that's been the case. During S4 Worlds, the slow-paced, methodical style of EU LCS at the time was also crushed by LPL teams. No wonder Fnatic and UOL were the top 2 EU teams this split. look at the teams. edg showed that they are probably the best team in the world atm. lgd showed tremendous growth late in the season and in playoffs. ig showed somewhat growth and is better than ig last season. vg was a hot mess at the start of hte season, became better than whatever the 4th team last year. the OMG roster did not change or saw an upgrade, but their result in lpl became worse. fnatic's major carries in that series, their top and jungle, are korean imports. they also improved over last season. but they should not have taken 2 games, and that series showed the same weakness in skt as the finals, the inconsistent botlane. Huni, sure, but Reignover over Febiven/Yellowstar in that SKT series? Is that a joke?
huni and reignover performed well enough to be major carries, point of citing those two is that they are korean imports. the main idea is that this fnatic team has improved. read the post in context
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On May 13 2015 03:43 Zess wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2015 11:24 Azarkon wrote:On May 12 2015 09:57 red_ wrote:
I just want to note that we can't just write Korea's infrastructural advantage off just yet. It's been what like 5 months since the exodus? Even given their infrastructure is far superior, is that really enough time? I would even say a 'failure' at Worlds is still not long enough. If there isn't another exodus this year, and they have had ample time to really just sit and redevelop, I'd wager that Korea will roar back in S6. There were a few blips in SC2 where "Korea"(different from 'Korean players') appeared to be weakening, and then they reminded everyone that they were still well beyond compare for basically everyone but Taeja(who is a weird outlier, and also muddies the decision whether you count him as a foreigner who is Korean or just full blown Korean given his tournament choices over the years). I'm fine with waiting for additional data. What's obvious now is that LCK has weakened vs. other regions. The results from IEM and MSI both support that, and not just vs. China but vs. the West and TW. Lest we forget, SKT dropped two games to Fnatic and were it not for a 10k throw from AHQ, was going to drop that game too. Whether it's improved LPL is less easy to say. Obviously LPL did win this MSI, but take away LCK and they were favorites to win Worlds in S3 and S4, too. RC was in the finals of S3 and S4. OMG was in the finals of S3 All-Stars. They beat Western teams to get there. Did they improve vis-a-vis the West now vs. before? Difficult to say. At the event, Monte and I discussed whether the methodical Korean way of playing was the "correct" way to play the game anymore. Due to the artificial clocks put on the game by the S4 changes, the game just needs to be played faster, which favors the Chinese style of abandoning lanes to make giant gank trains. I don't think TSM's coaching was subpar at all. If the game was still being played like it was at IEM, where the dominant style in the regions were GE/SK of making space and controlling the map, they would've done much better. But while the rest of the world went with lots of brawling, NA kind of fell behind where you still saw a lot of prioritization around picks like Sejuani (who did terribly this tournament) and so TSM was used to dominating using a playstyle that just isn't current anymore. I don't think this is a question of how regions have "improved" or not, but like TPA's win at S2 worlds, certain teams were just much better suited to be playing the current version of the game. If anything, SKT are actually one of the more impressive teams, because they survived and adapted the best to the fast paced, high-pressure version of the game that is in favor right now. In light of that lens, then TSM are probably quite weak because they honed their strength for a certain playstyle, without realizing that in a competition controlled by the whims of Riot Games, you need either extreme adaptability, or just rely on luck (TPA, SHRC) to get to the "top."
Its also quite amazing to me that SKT is the only team that seems capable of overcoming large deficits in this meta, when that was a S5 Riot goal.
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On May 13 2015 09:07 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 03:43 Zess wrote:On May 12 2015 11:24 Azarkon wrote:On May 12 2015 09:57 red_ wrote:
I just want to note that we can't just write Korea's infrastructural advantage off just yet. It's been what like 5 months since the exodus? Even given their infrastructure is far superior, is that really enough time? I would even say a 'failure' at Worlds is still not long enough. If there isn't another exodus this year, and they have had ample time to really just sit and redevelop, I'd wager that Korea will roar back in S6. There were a few blips in SC2 where "Korea"(different from 'Korean players') appeared to be weakening, and then they reminded everyone that they were still well beyond compare for basically everyone but Taeja(who is a weird outlier, and also muddies the decision whether you count him as a foreigner who is Korean or just full blown Korean given his tournament choices over the years). I'm fine with waiting for additional data. What's obvious now is that LCK has weakened vs. other regions. The results from IEM and MSI both support that, and not just vs. China but vs. the West and TW. Lest we forget, SKT dropped two games to Fnatic and were it not for a 10k throw from AHQ, was going to drop that game too. Whether it's improved LPL is less easy to say. Obviously LPL did win this MSI, but take away LCK and they were favorites to win Worlds in S3 and S4, too. RC was in the finals of S3 and S4. OMG was in the finals of S3 All-Stars. They beat Western teams to get there. Did they improve vis-a-vis the West now vs. before? Difficult to say. At the event, Monte and I discussed whether the methodical Korean way of playing was the "correct" way to play the game anymore. Due to the artificial clocks put on the game by the S4 changes, the game just needs to be played faster, which favors the Chinese style of abandoning lanes to make giant gank trains. I don't think TSM's coaching was subpar at all. If the game was still being played like it was at IEM, where the dominant style in the regions were GE/SK of making space and controlling the map, they would've done much better. But while the rest of the world went with lots of brawling, NA kind of fell behind where you still saw a lot of prioritization around picks like Sejuani (who did terribly this tournament) and so TSM was used to dominating using a playstyle that just isn't current anymore. I don't think this is a question of how regions have "improved" or not, but like TPA's win at S2 worlds, certain teams were just much better suited to be playing the current version of the game. If anything, SKT are actually one of the more impressive teams, because they survived and adapted the best to the fast paced, high-pressure version of the game that is in favor right now. In light of that lens, then TSM are probably quite weak because they honed their strength for a certain playstyle, without realizing that in a competition controlled by the whims of Riot Games, you need either extreme adaptability, or just rely on luck (TPA, SHRC) to get to the "top." Its also quite amazing to me that SKT is the only team that seems capable of overcoming large deficits in this meta, when that was a S5 Riot goal.
Even SKT really couldn't. It only appeared that way because they were often playing late scaling comps and Bengi was prioritizing farm/counterjungling over ganking at times.
I wouldn't put too much stock in TSM's failure. They're probably much better than they showed but they really lack strategic diversity.
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I think EDG adapted to the meta better if what Zess said about the meta-shift is true. In this tournament they played way more aggressive than they used to be. Actually they were a methodical and objective oriented team in LPL. Yet they still made many mistakes when they tried to execute this style of game which they are not quite familiar with. Luckily they can compensate their mistakes with individual skills.
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What Monte said was the so-called correct way to play this game was the methodical and objective oriented, which is the Korean way to play this game. The best example should be CJ vs Jin air.(I thought it was a extremely boring game, but some may consider it as the best game). Both teams wanted to control this game, played this game safe, not willing to take risks. That was the easiest way to show a methodical game if both teams want to be methodical.
But when the methodical defensive play style plays the weaker team with endless aggression(FNC,AHQ), they need to make decisions under tremendous pressure. That was a very different scenario from that both teams play methodical. In this case, the teams are very likely to play sloppy compared to the previous one, and look chaotic
So I honestly don't think one of these playstyles is superior than the other one. It is still very dependent on players skills.
Although EDG win the championship, I feel disappointed because the result should not be that closed. Individually EDG are far better than SKT(maybe except Mid, but Pawn counter Faker, kappa). But Pawn and Deft were underperforming in the whole tournament except the last game, not even closed to their LPL performance.
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With that same logic you can say that SKT also underperformed and was not even close to their LCK performance. End of the day it's a wash because of how close the games were. LPL is probably fielding the strongest competition with their korean infusions, but it's not a huge gap as everyone was originally led to believe. I would actually be surprised if an LPL team didn't win worlds this year.
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I think the number of teams that finish ahead of GE this split will be very indicative of the region's strength. They were a team assembled (imo) for the sole purpose of winning the OGN Spring Split (close, but no they got Hooned) and maintaining their position in the league after that (I don't think they have much chance of falling out of OGN next season). But its a low-upside team (analogous to if C9 had kept Hai for the summer), so if they finish top-3 again in summer it will be a poor indicator for Korean strength.
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On May 13 2015 02:53 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 02:51 ticklishmusic wrote:On May 13 2015 02:48 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 13 2015 02:25 ticklishmusic wrote:
I'm glad that AHQ looked strong during MSI. If they'd drawn against anyone but EDG, they would've gotten second place (their semi match was the real final though, lets be real). I think it points to SEA having pretty decent strength though, maybe on par with Korea considering the talent drain from there.
After seeing SKT and the SKT-EDG finals, it's pretty obvious that AHQ would've been demolished vs. SKT almost as hard as vs. EDG. AHQ would've beat Fnatic in a Bo5 but that would've required a SKT-EDG semifinals which wasn't happening. The difference between top TW (SEA is a separate region) and mid-TW is also huge, Korea is without a doubt significantly stronger than TW as a whole. The two regions should re-merge (IIRC the Garena split for Hong Kong and Taiwan was what, a year ago?). The two regions are too small of ecosystems separately IMO. A re-consolidated SEA/TW will likely be stronger than the LCS regions, whereas right now LCS is probably a bit better overall.
Strongly disagree.
Re-consolidated SEA/TW = GPL/LMS/whateverthenewacronymwillbe will be forced to allocate minimum number of spots to each country, because viewership and local audience engagement = Stronger countries starved of spots in the league, teams from weaker countries in their place = Back to square 1 (i.e. GPL) = Weakened league.
The only way I see re-consolidation strengthening SEA/TW will be if it adopts EU LCS style of spots being FFA regardless of the nation the teams are based in. Which isn't going to happen, I don't think.
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Well, didn't expect TSM to do so horribly. I was wrong.
Proud of myself for predicting SKT to not take the tournament when everyone was saying they were favorites though. Interesting that it was so close, definitely felt like SKT was weaker going into it than they showed, but this tournament will definitely help me get a better idea of all the regions and teams' strengths going into Summer Split and Worlds.
I assume a moderator has gone ahead and banned the person who bet me that SKT would win MSI?
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Baa?21243 Posts
On May 16 2015 01:09 LimpingGoat wrote:
I assume a moderator has gone ahead and banned the person who bet me that SKT would win MSI?
I commuted his ban to 90 days.
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On May 16 2015 01:20 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2015 01:09 LimpingGoat wrote:
I assume a moderator has gone ahead and banned the person who bet me that SKT would win MSI? I commuted his ban to 90 days.
For some reason I feel like I wouldn't have received the same mercy.
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Baa?21243 Posts
No, you probably would've.
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On May 16 2015 01:36 LimpingGoat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2015 01:20 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 16 2015 01:09 LimpingGoat wrote:
I assume a moderator has gone ahead and banned the person who bet me that SKT would win MSI? I commuted his ban to 90 days. For some reason I feel like I wouldn't have received the same mercy.
3 months woulda been just enough time for you to come back for Worlds and proclaim TSM is the best team again.
Who would ever pass on that chance?
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On May 16 2015 01:51 Lost My Will To Live wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2015 01:36 LimpingGoat wrote:On May 16 2015 01:20 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 16 2015 01:09 LimpingGoat wrote:
I assume a moderator has gone ahead and banned the person who bet me that SKT would win MSI? I commuted his ban to 90 days. For some reason I feel like I wouldn't have received the same mercy. 3 months woulda been just enough time for you to come back for Worlds and proclaim TSM is the best team again. Who would ever pass on that chance?
I wonder how the forum will react when I predict a team other than TSM as favorites going into a tournament? Guess I will just be fanboy of that team.
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EPT
