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Baa?21243 Posts
On May 13 2015 02:25 ticklishmusic wrote:
I'm glad that AHQ looked strong during MSI. If they'd drawn against anyone but EDG, they would've gotten second place (their semi match was the real final though, lets be real). I think it points to SEA having pretty decent strength though, maybe on par with Korea considering the talent drain from there.
After seeing SKT and the SKT-EDG finals, it's pretty obvious that AHQ would've been demolished vs. SKT almost as hard as vs. EDG. AHQ would've beat Fnatic in a Bo5 but that would've required a SKT-EDG semifinals which wasn't happening.
The difference between top TW (SEA is a separate region) and mid-TW is also huge, Korea is without a doubt significantly stronger than TW as a whole.
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France12883 Posts
On May 13 2015 02:25 ticklishmusic wrote:
I'm glad that AHQ looked strong during MSI. If they'd drawn against anyone but EDG, they would've gotten second place (their semi match was the real final though, lets be real). I think it points to SEA having pretty decent strength though, maybe on par with Korea considering the talent drain from there.
Don't understand the TSM hate (okay yeah I do actually). They win the last major international tourney, smash their region, underperform at MSI and all of a sudden they're a bad team. Fnatic takes 2 games off the weakest iteration of SKT and all of a sudden "omg Europe is good, Fnatic world class team".
The line-up at IEM wasn't as stacked as this MSI and even though they lost in the bo1 phase, losing to the same "simple" strategy every game yet not even once trying to adapt to this "counter strat" has exposed a real flaw.
People are exagerating because they (and their fans if I ununderstood correctly, maybe even Riot) trashtalked Europe but got slapped in the end.
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On May 13 2015 02:48 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 02:25 ticklishmusic wrote:
I'm glad that AHQ looked strong during MSI. If they'd drawn against anyone but EDG, they would've gotten second place (their semi match was the real final though, lets be real). I think it points to SEA having pretty decent strength though, maybe on par with Korea considering the talent drain from there.
After seeing SKT and the SKT-EDG finals, it's pretty obvious that AHQ would've been demolished vs. SKT almost as hard as vs. EDG. AHQ would've beat Fnatic in a Bo5 but that would've required a SKT-EDG semifinals which wasn't happening. The difference between top TW (SEA is a separate region) and mid-TW is also huge, Korea is without a doubt significantly stronger than TW as a whole.
The two regions should re-merge (IIRC the Garena split for Hong Kong and Taiwan was what, a year ago?). The two regions are too small of ecosystems separately IMO.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
I've personally managed to reconcile the results of EDG vs SKT and Fnatic vs SKT with all three of them are equally trash and no one is good at league of legends. At least it's coherent :>
On May 13 2015 02:51 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 02:48 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 13 2015 02:25 ticklishmusic wrote:
I'm glad that AHQ looked strong during MSI. If they'd drawn against anyone but EDG, they would've gotten second place (their semi match was the real final though, lets be real). I think it points to SEA having pretty decent strength though, maybe on par with Korea considering the talent drain from there.
After seeing SKT and the SKT-EDG finals, it's pretty obvious that AHQ would've been demolished vs. SKT almost as hard as vs. EDG. AHQ would've beat Fnatic in a Bo5 but that would've required a SKT-EDG semifinals which wasn't happening. The difference between top TW (SEA is a separate region) and mid-TW is also huge, Korea is without a doubt significantly stronger than TW as a whole. The two regions should re-merge (IIRC the Garena split for Hong Kong and Taiwan was what, a year ago?). The two regions are too small of ecosystems separately IMO.
Vietnam is probably better than bottom half of LMS maybe but outside of that it'd be pretty awful if we were sacrificing spots so the pinoys can go 0-10 some more ~_~
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Baa?21243 Posts
On May 13 2015 02:51 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 02:48 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 13 2015 02:25 ticklishmusic wrote:
I'm glad that AHQ looked strong during MSI. If they'd drawn against anyone but EDG, they would've gotten second place (their semi match was the real final though, lets be real). I think it points to SEA having pretty decent strength though, maybe on par with Korea considering the talent drain from there.
After seeing SKT and the SKT-EDG finals, it's pretty obvious that AHQ would've been demolished vs. SKT almost as hard as vs. EDG. AHQ would've beat Fnatic in a Bo5 but that would've required a SKT-EDG semifinals which wasn't happening. The difference between top TW (SEA is a separate region) and mid-TW is also huge, Korea is without a doubt significantly stronger than TW as a whole. The two regions should re-merge (IIRC the Garena split for Hong Kong and Taiwan was what, a year ago?). The two regions are too small of ecosystems separately IMO.
A re-consolidated SEA/TW will likely be stronger than the LCS regions, whereas right now LCS is probably a bit better overall.
On May 13 2015 02:52 Fusilero wrote:
I've personally managed to reconcile the results of EDG vs SKT and Fnatic vs SKT with all three of them are equally trash and no one is good at league of legends. At least it's coherent :>
Fits nicely into the EVERYONE IS A FRAUD narrative.
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On May 12 2015 13:51 TheYango wrote:
Just filtering this thread for his posts is glorious and cringeworthy at the same time.
He was correct in that SKT didn't win MSI, but even a broken clock is right twice a day. I think the prediction that SKT wouldn't win MSI is invalidated because he was confident SKT wouldn't take top two, and that TSM vs EDG would've been a close call (something like TSM #1, EDG #2 would've been his dream, SKT doesn't make it out of groups).
The five stages of LimpingGoat:
Denial:
On May 08 2015 06:16 LimpingGoat wrote:
Lol. You guys think a bo1 matters.
On May 08 2015 06:19 LimpingGoat wrote:
TSM is still the best team in the world.
Anger:
On May 08 2015 06:24 LimpingGoat wrote:
Yeah, it's pretty hilarious watching you guys react to TSM losing this bo1 against Fnatic.
On May 08 2015 06:36 LimpingGoat wrote:
So many of you guys are going to feel real stupid with what you're saying after TSM losing a bo1 against Fnatic once we get into the further parts of the tournament.
Depression:
On May 08 2015 06:52 LimpingGoat wrote:
Talk to you guys once we snap back to reality.
Bargaining:
On May 08 2015 07:09 LimpingGoat wrote:
Fuck it. I'll 1 week banbet TSM vs SKT bo1 today. Any takers?
Acceptance:
On May 08 2015 13:47 TL.net Bot wrote:
LimpingGoat was just temp banned for 1 week by Carnivorous Sheep.
That account was created on 2015-01-07 05:06:52 and had 0 posts.
Reason: Ban bet. TSM TSM TSM.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
Re-consolidated SEA will just be lulz.
Almost half of LMS teams is already getting slaughtered by top-4, so we're basically looking at SF5 fighting with Logitech Snipers and sniper assassin for top-5, which won't benefit top-4 by any mean, outside of giving up slightly more deaths than against Dream or Reality, lomo.
Lmao, the 5 stages.
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
On May 13 2015 03:09 Zess wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2015 13:51 TheYango wrote:
Just filtering this thread for his posts is glorious and cringeworthy at the same time. He was correct in that SKT didn't win MSI, but even a broken clock is right twice a day. I think the prediction that SKT wouldn't win MSI is invalidated because he was confident SKT wouldn't take top two, and that TSM vs EDG would've been a close call (something like TSM #1, EDG #2 would've been his dream, SKT doesn't make it out of groups). The five stages of LimpingGoat:Denial:Show nested quote +On May 08 2015 06:19 LimpingGoat wrote:
TSM is still the best team in the world. Anger:Show nested quote +On May 08 2015 06:24 LimpingGoat wrote:
Yeah, it's pretty hilarious watching you guys react to TSM losing this bo1 against Fnatic. Show nested quote +On May 08 2015 06:36 LimpingGoat wrote:
So many of you guys are going to feel real stupid with what you're saying after TSM losing a bo1 against Fnatic once we get into the further parts of the tournament. Depression:Show nested quote +On May 08 2015 06:52 LimpingGoat wrote:
Talk to you guys once we snap back to reality. Bargaining:Show nested quote +On May 08 2015 07:09 LimpingGoat wrote:
Fuck it. I'll 1 week banbet TSM vs SKT bo1 today. Any takers? Acceptance:Show nested quote +On May 08 2015 13:47 TL.net Bot wrote:
LimpingGoat was just temp banned for 1 week by Carnivorous Sheep.
That account was created on 2015-01-07 05:06:52 and had 0 posts.
Reason: Ban bet. TSM TSM TSM.
I'm totally bookmarking this.
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I love LimpingGoat ^_^ im glad he didnt get banned. Hope he dont do ban bets anymore cuz i value his opinions and want to see them in LR.
I blame Locodoco for TSM's failure. He thought it'd be okay to play like NA LCS against best teams in the world. Locodoco is the one who got exposed. I think that TSM is still top tier team.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On May 13 2015 02:39 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2015 12:34 oneofthem wrote:
i think it's easy to tell that the LPL has improved greatly, and that this improvement has been greater as the season went on. In that case, EU LCS has to have also improved greatly for the results to be coherent. Otherwise, it isn't logical that Fnatic was able to achieve 2-3 vs. a weakened LCK while EDG was only able to achieve 3-2 vs. a weakened LCK despite LPL improving greatly. And to think people - including Monte - were saying EU LCS was trash and had regressed because of their chaotic & messy play style. Looks to me the regions with chaotic and messy play styles - ie EU LCS and LPL - out-performed the regions with the slow-paced, methodical styles this MSI. It isn't the first time that's been the case. During S4 Worlds, the slow-paced, methodical style of EU LCS at the time was also crushed by LPL teams. No wonder Fnatic and UOL were the top 2 EU teams this split.
look at the teams.
edg showed that they are probably the best team in the world atm.
lgd showed tremendous growth late in the season and in playoffs.
ig showed somewhat growth and is better than ig last season.
vg was a hot mess at the start of hte season, became better than whatever the 4th team last year.
the OMG roster did not change or saw an upgrade, but their result in lpl became worse.
fnatic's major carries in that series, their top and jungle, are korean imports. they also improved over last season. but they should not have taken 2 games, and that series showed the same weakness in skt as the finals, the inconsistent botlane.
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On May 13 2015 03:09 Zess wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2015 13:51 TheYango wrote:
Just filtering this thread for his posts is glorious and cringeworthy at the same time. He was correct in that SKT didn't win MSI, but even a broken clock is right twice a day. I think the prediction that SKT wouldn't win MSI is invalidated because he was confident SKT wouldn't take top two, and that TSM vs EDG would've been a close call (something like TSM #1, EDG #2 would've been his dream, SKT doesn't make it out of groups). The five stages of LimpingGoat:Denial:Show nested quote +On May 08 2015 06:19 LimpingGoat wrote:
TSM is still the best team in the world. Anger:Show nested quote +On May 08 2015 06:24 LimpingGoat wrote:
Yeah, it's pretty hilarious watching you guys react to TSM losing this bo1 against Fnatic. Show nested quote +On May 08 2015 06:36 LimpingGoat wrote:
So many of you guys are going to feel real stupid with what you're saying after TSM losing a bo1 against Fnatic once we get into the further parts of the tournament. Depression:Show nested quote +On May 08 2015 06:52 LimpingGoat wrote:
Talk to you guys once we snap back to reality. Bargaining:Show nested quote +On May 08 2015 07:09 LimpingGoat wrote:
Fuck it. I'll 1 week banbet TSM vs SKT bo1 today. Any takers? Acceptance:Show nested quote +On May 08 2015 13:47 TL.net Bot wrote:
LimpingGoat was just temp banned for 1 week by Carnivorous Sheep.
That account was created on 2015-01-07 05:06:52 and had 0 posts.
Reason: Ban bet. TSM TSM TSM.
Holy shit this is brilliant
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On May 12 2015 11:24 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2015 09:57 red_ wrote:
I just want to note that we can't just write Korea's infrastructural advantage off just yet. It's been what like 5 months since the exodus? Even given their infrastructure is far superior, is that really enough time? I would even say a 'failure' at Worlds is still not long enough. If there isn't another exodus this year, and they have had ample time to really just sit and redevelop, I'd wager that Korea will roar back in S6. There were a few blips in SC2 where "Korea"(different from 'Korean players') appeared to be weakening, and then they reminded everyone that they were still well beyond compare for basically everyone but Taeja(who is a weird outlier, and also muddies the decision whether you count him as a foreigner who is Korean or just full blown Korean given his tournament choices over the years). I'm fine with waiting for additional data. What's obvious now is that LCK has weakened vs. other regions. The results from IEM and MSI both support that, and not just vs. China but vs. the West and TW. Lest we forget, SKT dropped two games to Fnatic and were it not for a 10k throw from AHQ, was going to drop that game too. Whether it's improved LPL is less easy to say. Obviously LPL did win this MSI, but take away LCK and they were favorites to win Worlds in S3 and S4, too. RC was in the finals of S3 and S4. OMG was in the finals of S3 All-Stars. They beat Western teams to get there. Did they improve vis-a-vis the West now vs. before? Difficult to say.
At the event, Monte and I discussed whether the methodical Korean way of playing was the "correct" way to play the game anymore.
Due to the artificial clocks put on the game by the S4 changes, the game just needs to be played faster, which favors the Chinese style of abandoning lanes to make giant gank trains. I don't think TSM's coaching was subpar at all. If the game was still being played like it was at IEM, where the dominant style in the regions were GE/SK of making space and controlling the map, they would've done much better.
But while the rest of the world went with lots of brawling, NA kind of fell behind where you still saw a lot of prioritization around picks like Sejuani (who did terribly this tournament) and so TSM was used to dominating using a playstyle that just isn't current anymore.
I don't think this is a question of how regions have "improved" or not, but like TPA's win at S2 worlds, certain teams were just much better suited to be playing the current version of the game. If anything, SKT are actually one of the more impressive teams, because they survived and adapted the best to the fast paced, high-pressure version of the game that is in favor right now.
In light of that lens, then TSM are probably quite weak because they honed their strength for a certain playstyle, without realizing that in a competition controlled by the whims of Riot Games, you need either extreme adaptability, or just rely on luck (TPA, SHRC) to get to the "top."
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On May 13 2015 02:53 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 02:51 ticklishmusic wrote:On May 13 2015 02:48 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 13 2015 02:25 ticklishmusic wrote:
I'm glad that AHQ looked strong during MSI. If they'd drawn against anyone but EDG, they would've gotten second place (their semi match was the real final though, lets be real). I think it points to SEA having pretty decent strength though, maybe on par with Korea considering the talent drain from there.
After seeing SKT and the SKT-EDG finals, it's pretty obvious that AHQ would've been demolished vs. SKT almost as hard as vs. EDG. AHQ would've beat Fnatic in a Bo5 but that would've required a SKT-EDG semifinals which wasn't happening. The difference between top TW (SEA is a separate region) and mid-TW is also huge, Korea is without a doubt significantly stronger than TW as a whole. The two regions should re-merge (IIRC the Garena split for Hong Kong and Taiwan was what, a year ago?). The two regions are too small of ecosystems separately IMO. A re-consolidated SEA/TW will likely be stronger than the LCS regions, whereas right now LCS is probably a bit better overall. Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 02:52 Fusilero wrote:
I've personally managed to reconcile the results of EDG vs SKT and Fnatic vs SKT with all three of them are equally trash and no one is good at league of legends. At least it's coherent :> Fits nicely into the EVERYONE IS A FRAUD narrative.
Playoffs were essentially held at a beach.
A nudist beach.
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On May 13 2015 03:27 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 02:39 Azarkon wrote:On May 12 2015 12:34 oneofthem wrote:
i think it's easy to tell that the LPL has improved greatly, and that this improvement has been greater as the season went on. In that case, EU LCS has to have also improved greatly for the results to be coherent. Otherwise, it isn't logical that Fnatic was able to achieve 2-3 vs. a weakened LCK while EDG was only able to achieve 3-2 vs. a weakened LCK despite LPL improving greatly. And to think people - including Monte - were saying EU LCS was trash and had regressed because of their chaotic & messy play style. Looks to me the regions with chaotic and messy play styles - ie EU LCS and LPL - out-performed the regions with the slow-paced, methodical styles this MSI. It isn't the first time that's been the case. During S4 Worlds, the slow-paced, methodical style of EU LCS at the time was also crushed by LPL teams. No wonder Fnatic and UOL were the top 2 EU teams this split. look at the teams. edg showed that they are probably the best team in the world atm. lgd showed tremendous growth late in the season and in playoffs. ig showed somewhat growth and is better than ig last season. vg was a hot mess at the start of hte season, became better than whatever the 4th team last year. the OMG roster did not change or saw an upgrade, but their result in lpl became worse. fnatic's major carries in that series, their top and jungle, are korean imports. they also improved over last season. but they should not have taken 2 games, and that series showed the same weakness in skt as the finals, the inconsistent botlane.
Huni, sure, but Reignover over Febiven/Yellowstar in that SKT series? Is that a joke?
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Baa?21243 Posts
Reignover, over the coursse of that tournament (and in parts of SKT-FNC) was much better than Febiven and Yolostar.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
Can't tell if KLK reference or not.
Also I'm pretty sure that constitutes bullying zess but it's way too lomo for me to really object.
On May 13 2015 03:12 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
Re-consolidated SEA will just be lulz.
Almost half of LMS teams is already getting slaughtered by top-4, so we're basically looking at SF5 fighting with Logitech Snipers and sniper assassin for top-5, which won't benefit top-4 by any mean, outside of giving up slightly more deaths than against Dream or Reality, lomo.
Lmao, the 5 stages.
It's assassin sniper you pleb
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On May 13 2015 03:48 Fusilero wrote:Can't tell if KLK reference or not. Also I'm pretty sure that constitutes bullying zess but it's way too lomo for me to really object. Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 03:12 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
Re-consolidated SEA will just be lulz.
Almost half of LMS teams is already getting slaughtered by top-4, so we're basically looking at SF5 fighting with Logitech Snipers and sniper assassin for top-5, which won't benefit top-4 by any mean, outside of giving up slightly more deaths than against Dream or Reality, lomo.
Lmao, the 5 stages.
It's assassin sniper you pleb
God bless worst name since Unicorns of Love.
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The interesting stat to me is the blueside/redside - SKT went 8-1 on blueside (only lost their last game) and 2-4 on redside (only won against Beskitas and AHQ). Makes me wonder if they could lose to Fnatic and EDG in groupstage if they didn't get the cointosses, and then maybe not even get to the final if they weren't the higher seed? Fnatic went 4-1 on blueside (lost to AHQ) and 0-5 on redside, EDG: 7-0 blueside, 3-3 on redside (all lost to SKT but they didnt play against Fnatic on redside). Stats look even worse if we take AHQ, Beskitas and TSM out of equasion. Pretty crazy.
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Baa?21243 Posts
Jungle is probably the main reason for the disparity. A lot of overlap in what the players were good at and a heavy focus on banning each other out. SKT's only loss came from a totally unexpected jungle pick, which supports the idea. I don't have the numbers or the pick/bans in front of me but IIRC jungle was first pick in a majority of the games.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On May 13 2015 04:31 AlterKot wrote:
The interesting stat to me is the blueside/redside - SKT went 8-1 on blueside (only lost their last game) and 2-4 on redside (only won against Beskitas and AHQ). Makes me wonder if they could lose to Fnatic and EDG in groupstage if they didn't get the cointosses, and then maybe not even get to the final if they weren't the higher seed? Fnatic went 4-1 on blueside (lost to AHQ) and 0-5 on redside, EDG: 7-0 blueside, 3-3 on redside (all lost to SKT but they didnt play against Fnatic on redside). Stats look even worse if we take AHQ, Beskitas and TSM out of equasion. Pretty crazy.
SKT went 3-4 on red side though and 7-2 on blue side.
But it's like saying that Sivir is bad champion, because she went 2-8 in playoffs or something with both wins by Deft on red side.
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EPT
