EPT[IEM] Katowice 2015 Discussion - Page 261
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
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asymptotech
United States295 Posts
On March 17 2015 03:20 Caiada wrote: I really don't get the hateboner for Turtle. Aside from the 15% of the time he does dumb bullshit, he's a perfectly serviceable adc and does some carrying when necessary. You're just looking at him in comparison to Bjerg, who shits on everyone who gets in his way. He's a member of TSM who makes mistakes. That will make the incoming-anonymous-hate-level magnitudes larger than it would for another player of the exact same caliber in a different situation. You know, because it's TSM fans who are the annoying ones. | ||
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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O-ops
United States4236 Posts
Back in s2 camping Dyrus is the easiest way to win because it's not like the rest of that team is gonna do anything in respond, they get out rotated and individually outskilled. Dyrus was probably the hardest member to deal with when TSM is going against a strong team. God forbid Regi actually do anything vs the people he plays against. Not only were they good, Regi's primary strength is to abuse lack of vision and people being afraid of scraps. When he played against a team with good vision and a mid that realize they actually outscrap regi he just get shit on. Oddone and Chaox just get outskilled, and in Chaox's case specifically he needed Dyrus to either peel his ass or become secondary carry (since Regi won't be doing anything). If Dyrus is shut out Chaox would just die to the assassin mid that got fed from regi every game. Now that Dyrus actually has a team that takes advantage of the other team giving up pressure on half the map to camp top, we can actually see that he could hang just fine with the best of them and is a fucking god in teamfights. There's a lot to be said when his scoreline is irrelevant in all those games. You camp him and kill him, his team get shit done cross map, and then teamfights come around he still dumps you, or you don't camp him and game 3 vs WE happens. His biggest issue was dying to camps and in this specific tourney he showed that his perceived weakness is irrelevant. If anything, this tournament shows that Dyrus shouldn't even be in consideration for the bench. He's versatile, skilled enough to do what needs to be done, always there for the team, mentally strong, and is a veteran of the game, both in and out of the rift. | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On March 17 2015 03:15 Zdrastochye wrote: There's no way Turtle is as bad as Woong was on Frost. He's fine, Dyrus needs some work on his champion pool because based on what I saw he shouldn't ever pick Rumble. Woong was better than Hermes, Space and Locodoco, rofl. Plus Woong was brains behind team, there is reason why Frost fell so hard after he left. Dyrus's champion pool and map awareness sucks, but if TSM really doesn't want to win Worlds, Dyrus is more than enough to win golds in domestic region and get to Ro8/Ro4 of Worlds. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On March 17 2015 04:34 O-ops wrote: I don't get the hate on Dyrus. Why are people surprised at Dyrus dying when at least 2 games out of a set teams sent 3 members on him before he hits 6 and were willing to sacrifice objectives and map control everyone else to continue doing so? That liss game vs Yolo Wolves they sent their 3 solos all the way top go get dyrus (rengar burned ulti on it) as drag was 5 sec away from spawning. It's not like they make it obvious, and pretty much every international games involving a korean/chinese team the opposing jungler have always been arguably the best or second best on that team. Back in s2 camping Dyrus is the easiest way to win because it's not like the rest of that team is gonna do anything in respond, they get out rotated and individually outskilled. Dyrus was probably the hardest member to deal with when TSM is going against a strong team. God forbid Regi actually do anything vs the people he plays against. Not only were they good, Regi's primary strength is to abuse lack of vision and people being afraid of scraps. When he played against a team with good vision and a mid that realize they actually outscrap regi he just get shit on. Oddone and Chaox just get outskilled, and in Chaox's case specifically he needed Dyrus to either peel his ass or become secondary carry (since Regi won't be doing anything). If Dyrus is shut out Chaox would just die to the assassin mid that got fed from regi every game. Now that Dyrus actually has a team that takes advantage of the other team giving up pressure on half the map to camp top, we can actually see that he could hang just fine with the best of them and is a fucking god in teamfights. There's a lot to be said when his scoreline is irrelevant in all those games. You camp him and kill him, his team get shit done cross map, and then teamfights come around he still dumps you, or you don't camp him and game 3 vs WE happens. His biggest issue was dying to camps and in this specific tourney he showed that his perceived weakness is irrelevant. If anything, this tournament shows that Dyrus shouldn't even be in consideration for the bench. He's versatile, skilled enough to do what needs to be done, always there for the team, mentally strong, and is a veteran of the game, both in and out of the rift. Pretty much this. Dyrus is just tantalizing enough to pull pressure but strong enough gameplay wise where camping him hard will no longer autolose TSM the game. With the changes to dragon and early tower durability, the top side of the map is barren of value when it comes to getting a kill. Unless you have a decently sized wave and two strong pushers in your top/jungle, you probably aren't taking a tower and losing something at the same time. Dyrus generally isn't put on super farm dependent tops like Hecarim and can stabilize a disadvantage against most opponents and still be relevant in teamfights. His play, when camped, is the definition of "Worth." | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
My inner armchair psychiatrist says that him being so good (even the Koreans and Chinese said he could hang with them) eventually led to him playing a little too cocky. I mean, the adrenaline of trucking down an enemy team as Draven, that's gotta be addicting and he just wants more of that. Combined with other teams adjusting to his aggression, this led to stupid plays, getting caught, and a slump. He's toned it down a bit, so now I'd rate him as one of the more mechanically proficient (others have gotten better), though still with a slight tendency to do dumb things. Considering that he's able to maintain all those accounts at the top of the ladder also says something about his individual skills. There's a bit of a fine line between playmaking and dumb shit. Turtle veered towards the dumb shit side a bit, but he's been making his way back to the right side. | ||
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
On March 17 2015 04:50 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Woong was better than Hermes, Space and Locodoco, rofl. Plus Woong was brains behind team, there is reason why Frost fell so hard after he left. Dyrus's champion pool and map awareness sucks, but if TSM really doesn't want to win Worlds, Dyrus is more than enough to win golds in domestic region and get to Ro8/Ro4 of Worlds. Saying Turtle is better than Locodoco doesn't point out anything new. Saying he's better than Woong does. And yes Woong was Frost's shotcaller but I'm just observing his play as an adc compared to Turtle's, and both are mediocre on a global level, yet Turtle is comparatively better in his region (due to not many great NA adcs despite what everyone deludes themselves into believing about Dlift) "More than good enough to ... get Ro8/Ro4 of Worlds" is not saying enough. That's like saying "X player isn't a complete burden on his team, so if they get to the world's semifinals it'll be because he got carried hard". It says more about his allies than it does about the player. And to be frank I disagree that TSM could get to semis at worlds, where the Koreans won't be in such a bad condition as they were at Katowice. If TSM had to fly to Korea and play GE in a bo3 the day after they arrived I bet they wouldn't play their best either. | ||
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crimethinking
Vietnam765 Posts
On March 17 2015 05:29 Gahlo wrote: If Dyrus played things super safe all the time people wouldn't camp him. You can't catch fish without bait. He plays the masterb8ter role, just like pieliedie used to play position #322 for C9.Dota, sacrificing himself to create space for the other 4. | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
On March 17 2015 04:34 O-ops wrote: Back in s2 camping Dyrus is the easiest way to win because it's not like the rest of that team is gonna do anything in respond, they get out rotated and individually outskilled. Dyrus was probably the hardest member to deal with when TSM is going against a strong team. God forbid Regi actually do anything vs the people he plays against. Not only were they good, Regi's primary strength is to abuse lack of vision and people being afraid of scraps. When he played against a team with good vision and a mid that realize they actually outscrap regi he just get shit on. Oddone and Chaox just get outskilled, and in Chaox's case specifically he needed Dyrus to either peel his ass or become secondary carry (since Regi won't be doing anything). If Dyrus is shut out Chaox would just die to the assassin mid that got fed from regi every game. i feel like this description of S2 TSM is kind of off, a lot of TSM wins were on the back of oddone snowballing regi by camping... maokai leblanc was their most feared combo at the time, to the point where maokai seemed to be a priority ban against TSM. around then, dyrus was known for just being solid but not exceptional on irelia/jax/singed/mundo/shyvana, his irelia was overshadowed by wickd's(though i'd say roughly equal skill to), his singed was overshadowed by TPA.stanley's (and i also felt TSM was overly reluctant to pick singed when he was actually strong and dyrus was trying to tell them so), and his jax/mundo/shyvana were overshadowed by shy's (darien's shyvana and shen were also clearly better too). he was more solid than a lot of lesser NA and EU tops, but he always felt unexceptional. TSM's upsets were always on the back of regi carrying hard, iirc. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On March 17 2015 05:29 Gahlo wrote: If Dyrus played things super safe all the time people wouldn't camp him. You can't catch fish without bait. Or dyrus could just be good... | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
You're right, I think Dyrus is good. :^) | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On March 17 2015 05:49 Zdrastochye wrote: Saying Turtle is better than Locodoco doesn't point out anything new. Saying he's better than Woong does. And yes Woong was Frost's shotcaller but I'm just observing his play as an adc compared to Turtle's, and both are mediocre on a global level, yet Turtle is comparatively better in his region (due to not many great NA adcs despite what everyone deludes themselves into believing about Dlift) "More than good enough to ... get Ro8/Ro4 of Worlds" is not saying enough. That's like saying "X player isn't a complete burden on his team, so if they get to the world's semifinals it'll be because he got carried hard". It says more about his allies than it does about the player. And to be frank I disagree that TSM could get to semis at worlds, where the Koreans won't be in such a bad condition as they were at Katowice. If TSM had to fly to Korea and play GE in a bo3 the day after they arrived I bet they wouldn't play their best either. WT is really receiving way more negative than he deserves I never saw any other adc, who could be such rnjesus, but in general, he just changed from being primary carry of TSM in season 3, when he was considered "hella good" for Western standards, to be secondary carry in s4-5 due to Bjergsen growing so fast. He simply doesn't need to carry, so he can just Corki/Sivir every game Zefa/PraY style and watch Bjergsen winning games. Like, even in NA, will you take anyone but Sneaky and Doublelift over WT right now? Probably no, especially due to Altec commiting sudoku, and first is really only carry in his team and needs to tryhard his ass off every game for C9 to win games and second basically does same things WT does in TSM with just way better laning phase and completely different teams playstyles. And Lustboy was never some laning support God either, don't forget. Bjergsen will be resident only next year, so it makes no sense for TSM to find new toplaner right now, considering that they can't get better one in NA. And it's pretty same with adc. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On March 17 2015 08:08 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: WT is really receiving way more negative than he deserves I never saw any other adc, who could be such rnjesus, but in general, he just changed from being primary carry of TSM in season 3, when he was considered "hella good" for Western standards, to be secondary carry in s4-5 due to Bjergsen growing so fast. He simply doesn't need to carry, so he can just Corki/Sivir every game Zefa/PraY style and watch Bjergsen winning games. Like, even in NA, will you take anyone but Sneaky and Doublelift over WT right now? Probably no, especially due to Altec commiting sudoku, and first is really only carry in his team and needs to tryhard his ass off every game for C9 to win games and second basically does same things WT does in TSM with just way better laning phase and completely different teams playstyles. And Lustboy was never some laning support God either, don't forget. Bjergsen will be resident only next year, so it makes no sense for TSM to find new toplaner right now, considering that they can't get better one in NA. And it's pretty same with adc. Of those two, I'd honestly only even consider taking Sneaky over Turtle. DLift is good, but I'd call him third best AD behind the the other two. He hasn't been a contender for number one AD since S3. He's still good, but a lot of the CLG botlane's success has come from Aphro really developing as a support. Speaking of that as well, it's hard to say how Sneaky would play without Lemon as well- no doubt he's a great AD and has come the farthest of the three, but having champs that work well together and just chemistry is hella important. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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crimethinking
Vietnam765 Posts
This comes from a TSM hater. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On March 17 2015 10:25 krndandaman wrote: I'm glad lustboy is getting a bit more recognition after this tournament. he's pretty much turned this team around since joining and hes without a world class support and the best outside of asia imo. in terms of star power I don't think lustboy falls behind bjergsen at all. his impact is immense. the only difference is bjergsen's competitors are pretty garbage for the most part while there are a decent number of good supports. gah regi really hit the goldmine with bjerg/lustboy Regi hit a goldmine with all his players. Regi is a genius. | ||
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