|
Unfounded matchfixing accusations are not welcome. Refrain from making off-the-wall accusations without concrete evidence. |
On September 20 2014 04:32 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 04:29 VayneAuthority wrote:On September 20 2014 04:26 iCanada wrote:
All trying to be eastern does to western player's is burn them out and kill their motivation.
Look at sc2, there were foreigners who were just as good if not better than many of the Koreans, but they then moved to Korea and saw no improvement, burned out, and quit playing the game.
Guys like IdrA, jinro, tlo... We just aren't made to boot camp and practice fourteen hours a day. Just burns us out, we can't handle that style of work, that style of living. It's not healthy, western society strives for space, freshness.
Jinro was a better sc2 player before he was forced to practice kespa style. There is literally no examples of a western player that integrated with Korean pros and was successful for it. Literally none. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Grrrr... Grrr was better than all the Koreans before he went to Korea, and then he quickly fell from grace. Grrr was literally from pre-kespa. Grrr was part of the wave that made bw relavent, not really the same thing.
I linked him more to bolster the statement I made, he had terrible mechanics but made it as a foreigner through high intelligence. Then was overpowered by high mechanics that western people aren't capable of, not because they dont train hard enough but because they will never be able to achieve it
|
On September 20 2014 04:37 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 04:32 iCanada wrote:On September 20 2014 04:29 VayneAuthority wrote:On September 20 2014 04:26 iCanada wrote:
All trying to be eastern does to western player's is burn them out and kill their motivation.
Look at sc2, there were foreigners who were just as good if not better than many of the Koreans, but they then moved to Korea and saw no improvement, burned out, and quit playing the game.
Guys like IdrA, jinro, tlo... We just aren't made to boot camp and practice fourteen hours a day. Just burns us out, we can't handle that style of work, that style of living. It's not healthy, western society strives for space, freshness.
Jinro was a better sc2 player before he was forced to practice kespa style. There is literally no examples of a western player that integrated with Korean pros and was successful for it. Literally none. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Grrrr... Grrr was better than all the Koreans before he went to Korea, and then he quickly fell from grace. Grrr was literally from pre-kespa. Grrr was part of the wave that made bw relavent, not really the same thing. I linked him more to bolster the statement I made, he had terrible mechanics but made it as a foreigner through high intelligence. Then was overpowered by high mechanics that western people aren't capable of, not because they dont train hard enough but because they will never be able to achieve it
That's not true. A guy like n0ny had Korean like mechanics. He went in, smashed starleague first go, got his pro license, and then fell off the map because he just became do depressed with the life style. We're talking about an absolute prodigy in n0ny.
All us sending talent to Korea achieved was burning out our top talent.
|
On September 20 2014 04:37 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 04:32 iCanada wrote:On September 20 2014 04:29 VayneAuthority wrote:On September 20 2014 04:26 iCanada wrote:
All trying to be eastern does to western player's is burn them out and kill their motivation.
Look at sc2, there were foreigners who were just as good if not better than many of the Koreans, but they then moved to Korea and saw no improvement, burned out, and quit playing the game.
Guys like IdrA, jinro, tlo... We just aren't made to boot camp and practice fourteen hours a day. Just burns us out, we can't handle that style of work, that style of living. It's not healthy, western society strives for space, freshness.
Jinro was a better sc2 player before he was forced to practice kespa style. There is literally no examples of a western player that integrated with Korean pros and was successful for it. Literally none. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Grrrr... Grrr was better than all the Koreans before he went to Korea, and then he quickly fell from grace. Grrr was literally from pre-kespa. Grrr was part of the wave that made bw relavent, not really the same thing. I linked him more to bolster the statement I made, he had terrible mechanics but made it as a foreigner through high intelligence. Then was overpowered by high mechanics that western people aren't capable of, not because they dont train hard enough but because they will never be able to achieve it
Bullshit
There is no magic Asian DNA that makes you better mechanically. They practice for hours and hours to get those skills and anyone who did the same training with the same commitment can match them.
|
Attributing things to genetics is such a cop-out 'answer' to me lol.
It's like when people used to think that the results of IQ tests 'proved' that white ppl were 'just' more (and significantly so) intelligent than every other ethnic group when it was just a case of incorrect conclusions drawn from research conducted using an imperfect test .
|
so even though there are thousands and thousands of asians training trying to get into the NBA or NFL, 2 of the more demanding sports in terms of physical talent, there are still barely any in either league?
They train harder according to you guys but they can't make it, can't have it both ways
and believe me players dont just stay in the asian league because they cant "handle our lifestyle"
99% of those players want to be in the NBA, and washed up people tend to show up in other leagues around the world from the NBA.
|
On September 20 2014 04:48 VayneAuthority wrote:
so even though there are thousands and thousands of asians training trying to get into the NBA or NFL, 2 of the more demanding sports in terms of physical talent, there are still barely any in either league?
They train harder according to you guys but they can't make it, can't have it both ways
and believe me players dont just stay in the asian league because they cant "handle our lifestyle"
99% of those players want to be in the NBA, and washed up people tend to show up in other leagues around the world from the NBA.
aren't we cute trying to use shit arguments. We know height is a thing in genetics. Until you can show me a trustworthy scientific study proving Asians have greater aptitude for mechanic skill because of genetics I'm calling BS on your "theory'.
|
On September 20 2014 04:52 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 04:48 VayneAuthority wrote:
so even though there are thousands and thousands of asians training trying to get into the NBA or NFL, 2 of the more demanding sports in terms of physical talent, there are still barely any in either league?
They train harder according to you guys but they can't make it, can't have it both ways
and believe me players dont just stay in the asian league because they cant "handle our lifestyle"
99% of those players want to be in the NBA, and washed up people tend to show up in other leagues around the world from the NBA. aren't we cute trying to use shit arguments. We know height is a thing in genetics. Until you can show me a trustworthy scientific study proving Asians have greater aptitude for mechanic skill because of genetics I'm calling BS on your "theory'.
i can show you a scientific study that you are in the upper 1% echelon of butthurt people in the world at this moment
|
If your hypothesis is correct, what makes League of Legends and Starcraft unique among esports that they are so Korean dominated that you are willing to blame genetics for the disparity rather than environment or dedication
CLG.eu was more or less on par with the top Korean teams 2 years ago. Its the fact that NA and EU are regions in which being the best is less relevant than being the most entertaining that has made the regions fall behind.
|
Other thing is, regardless of mechanical skill, we're talking about lol, it's not like we're losing to Korea because they have higher apm and therefore better macro. The difference in csing and control is barely notable if at all.
|
On September 20 2014 04:41 iCanada wrote:That's not true. A guy like n0ny had Korean like mechanics. He went in, smashed starleague first go, got his pro license, and then fell off the map because he just became do depressed with the life style. We're talking about an absolute prodigy in n0ny..
Not really accurate. He lost his final courage match (the first attempt), and to the best of my knowledge never won courage. He never played in a Starleague. Yeah, it wasn't because of lack of mechanics. Also, there's a pretty big difference between getting your license and being near the best.
|
On September 20 2014 05:04 Kupon3ss wrote:
If your hypothesis is correct, what makes League of Legends and Starcraft unique among esports that they are so Korean dominated that you are willing to blame genetics for the disparity rather than environment or dedication
CLG.eu was more or less on par with the top Korean teams 2 years ago. Its the fact that NA and EU are regions in which being the best is less relevant than being the most entertaining that has made the regions fall behind.
Back then KeSPA wasn't involve in LoL.
|
On September 20 2014 05:12 zer0das wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 04:41 iCanada wrote:That's not true. A guy like n0ny had Korean like mechanics. He went in, smashed starleague first go, got his pro license, and then fell off the map because he just became do depressed with the life style. We're talking about an absolute prodigy in n0ny.. Not really accurate. He lost his final courage match, and to the best of my knowledge never won courage. He never played in a Starleague. Yeah, it wasn't because of lack of mechanics.
Yeah, that's what I meant, courage.
Still though, his showing at courage pre kespa boot camping was hella impressive. There was buzz even in Korea that after he got on a team he'd become an absolute monster player... but it didn't happen that way. And it's not like Nony did anything wrong, that lifestyle just isn't healthy for westerners, we need personal space, we thrive on being well rested and fresh.
There is a reason no talented foreigners went to Korea and became amazing. On the overhand, in pro sports talented foreigners come in and dominate the nba, the nhl, mlb etc.
Professional sports teams in NA practice like once a week, that's it.
The Canadian hockey team at Sochii had two practices all tourney long, yet came in first in dominating fashion. Russia practiced the most of every team in the tournament but was it before elimination games even started despite being rented number 1 in the world.
Psychologically westerners are better off practicing less and being mentally well prepared / happy / motivated. We will never beat Koreans at being Korean.
|
|
|
United States47024 Posts
On September 20 2014 05:20 iCanada wrote:
Psychologically westerners are better off practicing less and being mentally well prepared / happy / motivated. We will never beat Koreans at being Korean.
So how do you characterize ethnically Asian westerners, which happen to make up a good chunk of the Western teams?
Likewise the "genetics" argument is somewhat hamstrung by these ethnically Asian western players who, despite having Asian genes, show no mechanical advantage over their Caucasian/White counterparts and are equally disadvantaged against Asian teams.
On September 20 2014 05:19 orzeu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 05:04 Kupon3ss wrote:
If your hypothesis is correct, what makes League of Legends and Starcraft unique among esports that they are so Korean dominated that you are willing to blame genetics for the disparity rather than environment or dedication
CLG.eu was more or less on par with the top Korean teams 2 years ago. Its the fact that NA and EU are regions in which being the best is less relevant than being the most entertaining that has made the regions fall behind. Back then KeSPA wasn't involve in LoL.
KeSPA doesn't influence genetics. KeSPA's involvement being a requirement for Korea's growing advantage supports the idea that the Korean advantage is based on environment and on infrastructure rather than on genetics.
|
I'm merely trying to suggest what would work better for our player's.
|
On September 20 2014 05:43 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 05:20 iCanada wrote:
Psychologically westerners are better off practicing less and being mentally well prepared / happy / motivated. We will never beat Koreans at being Korean. So how do you characterize ethnically Asian westerners that grew up with a culturally Asian upbringing, which happen to make up a good chunk of the Western teams? Likewise the "genetics" argument is somewhat hamstrung by these ethnically Asian western players who, despite having Asian genes, show no mechanical advantage over their Caucasian/White counterparts and are equally disadvantaged against Asian teams.
Not saying genes, saying growing up we have a certain set I'd values, ideals, and optimal conditions instilled on us.
The ones we get in the western world are different than the ones a Korean would get. In Asia getting a job where it's your whole life is normal. Here we work to live. Not live to work. Here we grow up in big houses with four people living in them, there they have small house's with dozens of people in them.
The psychological expectations are different. Westerners need that personal space.
|
United States47024 Posts
An ethnically Asian child growing up in the West doesn't get a fully Western upbringing either. The American-born Asian gets a weird hybrid culture instilled in them.
The genetics part was aimed at VayneAuthority's argument, not yours.
|
On September 20 2014 05:49 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 05:43 TheYango wrote:On September 20 2014 05:20 iCanada wrote:
Psychologically westerners are better off practicing less and being mentally well prepared / happy / motivated. We will never beat Koreans at being Korean. So how do you characterize ethnically Asian westerners that grew up with a culturally Asian upbringing, which happen to make up a good chunk of the Western teams? Likewise the "genetics" argument is somewhat hamstrung by these ethnically Asian western players who, despite having Asian genes, show no mechanical advantage over their Caucasian/White counterparts and are equally disadvantaged against Asian teams. Not saying genes, saying growing up we have a certain set I'd values, ideals, and optimal conditions instilled on us. The ones we get in the western world are different than the ones a Korean would get. In Asia getting a job where it's your whole life is normal. Here we work to live. Not live to work. Here we grow up in big houses with four people living in them, there they have small house's with dozens of people in them. The psychological expectations are different. Westerners need that personal space.
This is a highly flawed argument built on new-age sociological pseudoscience that you would read in a Malcolm Gladwell polemic or see being promoted by a liberal content aggregator.
The easiest counterexample is in competitive athletics, where the most rigorous and effective training regimens are portable across athletes of different cultural backgrounds.
More directly, the notion that Westerners need to be pampered with personal space is refuted by varsity high school and university athletic programs where once again brutal training regimens and small-community hazing would follow your idealized notion of an "Asian" culture of conformity and dedication.
|
You mean where everyone gets their own personal space, they're own room, you practice twice a week, and then you spend the rest of your time partying?
That was my varsity experience...
Not to mention, post secondary dorm students have the highest rate of suicide in the entire western world...
|
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
where does sports culture work into all of this
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
