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On August 17 2014 01:25 AlterKot wrote:
Well, I have no faith in EU this season and I never caught the ALL hype, and so far the playoffs reassured my stance. I'm really curious about the NA playoffs though, would be cool to see C9, CLG or TSM in top4.
i have no hope in eu either, but saying clg or tsm has better chances is naive, c9 might be best bet for western fans this year also even thought fnatic played like shit yesterday (way below expectations) they always manage to do well so you can never count them out
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Dunno kongoline, as much as we make fun of CLG getting beaten by IM #5 and Apdo's challenger team, I think the trip is legitimately a huge opportunity to get better. It's hard to question Moo's talent, and while neither Dexter nor Double had season of their lives, I still hold them in high regard. Already explained TSM in previous post, but obviously that one is even more of bold prediction, because it only works if Turtle/Lustboy become at least as good as Turtle/Xpecial, Amazing learns at least 2 new champions (Lee/Elise/Kha, Eve, J4?) and Loco prepares some godly strats. Of course I'm also expecting ALL and FNC to play at least as "badly" as in playoffs so far, but well, I guess it just goes down to faith and expectations based on previous results, and in that case, I expect CLG and TSM to be better than ALL and FNC.
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On August 17 2014 03:38 kongoline wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2014 01:25 AlterKot wrote:
Well, I have no faith in EU this season and I never caught the ALL hype, and so far the playoffs reassured my stance. I'm really curious about the NA playoffs though, would be cool to see C9, CLG or TSM in top4. i have no hope in eu either, but saying clg or tsm has better chances is naive, c9 might be best bet for western fans this year also even thought fnatic played like shit yesterday (way below expectations) they always manage to do well so you can never count them out
I don't think CLG/TSM have better chances over c9, but I respect that CLG/TSM(as a team) seem to pay a lot of attention to wanting to improve internationally rather than just in NA. They know enough to want to improve, and are making serious attempts at creating a team for the world stage as their goal. Of course, c9 are contenders for doing well at Worlds. The problem is that I feel they are still fairly untested internationally, and that makes it difficult to try to predict what will happen. So, I tend to forget about them.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On August 17 2014 04:00 AlterKot wrote:
Dunno kongoline, as much as we make fun of CLG getting beaten by IM #5 and Apdo's challenger team, I think the trip is legitimately a huge opportunity to get better. It's hard to question Moo's talent, and while neither Dexter nor Double had season of their lives, I still hold them in high regard. Already explained TSM in previous post, but obviously that one is even more of bold prediction, because it only works if Turtle/Lustboy become at least as good as Turtle/Xpecial, Amazing learns at least 2 new champions (Lee/Elise/Kha, Eve, J4?) and Loco prepares some godly strats. Of course I'm also expecting ALL and FNC to play at least as "badly" as in playoffs so far, but well, I guess it just goes down to faith and expectations based on previous results, and in that case, I expect CLG and TSM to be better than ALL and FNC.
You overrate NA a lot.
Noone was expecting Fnatic to go into Ro4 last time and they could get finals if not puszu.
It's more about what draw are teams going to get, in both groups and elimination rounds.
But i don't think that C9 will be ok on international stage this season, Hai is just too heavy, i'm not channelling any hopes for CLG, fuck it, 4 last years taught me it.
Even if TSM finally channeled inner Korean after adding Lustboy, it's still not enough to prevent Dyrus from unstoppable feeding and Amazing from being useless + WT isn't anywhere close to his S3 form. LMQ might be really only real hope for NA, rofl, but i don't see them getting from the groups with Korean team/OMG, for example.
SK is lock from EU to get out in the groups if ofc they don't get some real luck with SEA/Wildcard in their group but i want to hope that it's not happening and SK are just going down instantly.
Alliance and Fnatic are almost locks to get out from groups on the other hand, Fnatic tend to step up almost always on international stage and Alliance just need to stop Shook from bleeding so hard on big stage.
Most likely, let's be honest, if groups are going to be +- okay and not 2 groups of death and 2 groups where EU and NA champions are playing with SEA/Wildcards/EU-NA lesser teams, then we will have 3 Korean teams, 2 or 3 Chinese, EU/NA champions and probably one more EU/NA team, either it's going to be Fnatic or CLG, it doesn't matter.
On the other hand, if Arrows somehow get out of the Regionals and come to Worlds, i can easily see them going full Ozone and losing in groups with their playstyle it won't work in bo1's.
Also, if there will be only one group with Korean team and Chinese team in it, then it's good for EU/NA, if more than two - welp, guess, we can see only 2 representatives in Ro8 with one of them being hidden 4th Chinese team. Imagine if Quantic had qualified, lol.
4 Korean teams and 4 Chinese. Perfect.
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Talking about the last patch: Hecarim is quite good after the small buff. Played some games with him. Not sure they pick him in lcs but hes actually quite strong. Good ganks and if good played a lot of potential even in teamfights.
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I'm not sure who thought Fnatic will lose to C9, I sure as hell didn't back then. But I do now. You think that I overrate NA, I think you underrate it, glad we got that sorted out.
"Useless Amazing", you watched Shook and Cyanide in semis :D ?
Fnatic really shown how to step up at allstars lol. I also like how you think I overrate NA by thinking that bootcamp in Korea and a month-long practice for TSM and C9 will fix a lot of their issues, but also think that Alliance "just" need to make Shook play well.
But I like that you brought up groups. Last year to get out of groups, Fnatic had to beat:
- Voidle Gambit
- Zoonie and friends
- Minlolski
- Drugged SSW
And then C9 who haven't played a single non-american team at this point. TSM was a mess of Turtle/Xpecial playing well, and then having useless mid, useless jungler and Dyrus in the worst shape of his life. Vulcun didn't practice because they were busy learning latin. Sadly we'll never know how well Lemondogs would do against teams other than OMG and T1K, but I doubt they would outperform Fnatic anyway.
Now C9 has experience from Worlds, 2 IEMs, BotA, All-Stars and playing a season against LMQ. CLG has just spent 2 or 3 weeks playing against OGN/NLB teams. TSM is literally NA ALL - veteran toplaner whose form fluctuates, european jungling prodigy, star danish midlaner, highly regarded ADC and an experienced support who was never considered to be top of the class. Both teams have mix of experienced members and not experienced. Of course ALL played together for a longer time, but before NA playoffs start, I'm pretty full of hope.
Of course a lot depends on who gets the group without either Korean or Chinese team, but considering that most groups will have an NA and an EU team, it's far more likely to me that americans get to quarters AND MAYBE EVEN SEMIS WHO KNOWS than europeans. Not to mention the whole infrastructure/coaching/motivation/strategy things that were shoved down our throats for the entire season and I'm willing to believe at this point.
And lol "if arrows somehow get out of regionals" yeah they just beat what people thought was clear #1 in the World, I'm sure they are going into regionals as underdogs :D But yeah I agree that if any possible Korean team isn't getting out of groups, it's them.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On August 17 2014 08:27 AlterKot wrote:
I'm not sure who thought Fnatic will lose to C9, I sure as hell didn't back then. But I do now. You think that I overrate NA, I think you underrate it, glad we got that sorted out.
"Useless Amazing", you watched Shook and Cyanide in semis :D ?
Fnatic really shown how to step up at allstars lol. I also like how you think I overrate NA by thinking that bootcamp in Korea and a month-long practice for TSM and C9 will fix a lot of their issues, but also think that Alliance "just" need to make Shook play well.
But I like that you brought up groups. Last year to get out of groups, Fnatic had to beat:
- Voidle Gambit
- Zoonie and friends
- Minlolski
- Drugged SSW
And then C9 who haven't played a single non-american team at this point. TSM was a mess of Turtle/Xpecial playing well, and then having useless mid, useless jungler and Dyrus in the worst shape of his life. Vulcun didn't practice because they were busy learning latin. Sadly we'll never know how well Lemondogs would do against teams other than OMG and T1K, but I doubt they would outperform Fnatic anyway.
Now C9 has experience from Worlds, 2 IEMs, BotA, All-Stars and playing a season against LMQ. CLG has just spent 2 or 3 weeks playing against OGN/NLB teams. TSM is literally NA ALL - veteran toplaner whose form fluctuates, european jungling prodigy, star danish midlaner, highly regarded ADC and an experienced support who was never considered to be top of the class. Both teams have mix of experienced members and not experienced. Of course ALL played together for a longer time, but before NA playoffs start, I'm pretty full of hope.
Of course a lot depends on who gets the group without either Korean or Chinese team, but considering that most groups will have an NA and an EU team, it's far more likely to me that americans get to quarters AND MAYBE EVEN SEMIS WHO KNOWS than europeans. Not to mention the whole infrastructure/coaching/motivation/strategy things that were shoved down our throats for the entire season and I'm willing to believe at this point.
And lol "if arrows somehow get out of regionals" yeah they just beat what people thought was clear #1 in the World, I'm sure they are going into regionals as underdogs :D But yeah I agree that if any possible Korean team isn't getting out of groups, it's them.
Lol, calling Arrows as favourite against K/White in bo5 with having one game plan? No, thanks.
And they have to beat NJWS in bo5 as well before it, it won't be that easy either.
TSM hadn't practiced for a month, Amazing got dropped to Germany because of visa issues for a week, so they got basically 2 weeks, it's nothing.
And CLG didn't have game problems, it was all about tiltiing hard and making stupid decisions, not like they're changing their playstyle completely in Korea.
Allstars, rofl. Best tournament to bring up, like, seriously. Why not IEM?
About Amazing. He's com-ple-te-ly useless outside of Elise, it's not funny to call Shook or Cyanide here, we're speaking about Amazing and not pointing fingers in kids style like it was in school:
- Why do you have that grade?
- But he has it as well!
On less serious note:
>>TSM is literally NA ALL
It's not even funny. Especially, calling out Lustboy for not being top of the class when he was top-2 Korean support for until Blaze's collapse against dade for 1,5 years and then was considered as top-3 safely, until Heart's and Piccaboo's rise.
Well, it might sound harsh, but TSM ain't even close to Alliance. Wickd won't feed like Dyrus can, Shook at least, can force something somewhere, Froggen is 2 heads above Bjergsen right now when Syndra is banned, WT is slumping for 2 splits already while Tabzz is going to be best EU ad tomorrow and poor Lustboy just got brought into team.
It's not like i defending Fnatic or don't want CLG to win Worlds, but, it's just lol.
Time will tell how it goes, i'm still going with [A] as team with best Western chances at Worlds if they don't get hit by Blue/OMG or White/OMG groups, other are durable, Fnatic as second and CLG as third if they qualify.
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On August 17 2014 08:27 AlterKot wrote:
I'm not sure who thought Fnatic will lose to C9, I sure as hell didn't back then. But I do now. You think that I overrate NA, I think you underrate it, glad we got that sorted out.
"Useless Amazing", you watched Shook and Cyanide in semis :D ?
Fnatic really shown how to step up at allstars lol. I also like how you think I overrate NA by thinking that bootcamp in Korea and a month-long practice for TSM and C9 will fix a lot of their issues, but also think that Alliance "just" need to make Shook play well.
But I like that you brought up groups. Last year to get out of groups, Fnatic had to beat:
- Voidle Gambit
- Zoonie and friends
- Minlolski
- Drugged SSW
And then C9 who haven't played a single non-american team at this point. TSM was a mess of Turtle/Xpecial playing well, and then having useless mid, useless jungler and Dyrus in the worst shape of his life. Vulcun didn't practice because they were busy learning latin. Sadly we'll never know how well Lemondogs would do against teams other than OMG and T1K, but I doubt they would outperform Fnatic anyway.
Now C9 has experience from Worlds, 2 IEMs, BotA, All-Stars and playing a season against LMQ. CLG has just spent 2 or 3 weeks playing against OGN/NLB teams. TSM is literally NA ALL - veteran toplaner whose form fluctuates, european jungling prodigy, star danish midlaner, highly regarded ADC and an experienced support who was never considered to be top of the class. Both teams have mix of experienced members and not experienced. Of course ALL played together for a longer time, but before NA playoffs start, I'm pretty full of hope.
Of course a lot depends on who gets the group without either Korean or Chinese team, but considering that most groups will have an NA and an EU team, it's far more likely to me that americans get to quarters AND MAYBE EVEN SEMIS WHO KNOWS than europeans. Not to mention the whole infrastructure/coaching/motivation/strategy things that were shoved down our throats for the entire season and I'm willing to believe at this point.
And lol "if arrows somehow get out of regionals" yeah they just beat what people thought was clear #1 in the World, I'm sure they are going into regionals as underdogs :D But yeah I agree that if any possible Korean team isn't getting out of groups, it's them.
Hmm... I wouldn't count on CLG, TSM and SK... And wouldn't have counted on ROC too. People always tend to speculate too much and since the beginning of LCS it has been the same. In general EU does slightly better in international events and only the teams that have shown consistence at being at the top do well.
The rest: FNC, ALL for EU and LMQ, C9 for NA can play rly rly solidely and don't have big core problems like the ones above (jungler interaction with lanes for CLG and TSM, laning phase for SK).
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On August 17 2014 08:37 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Lol, calling Arrows as favourite against K/White in bo5 with having one game plan? No, thanks.
And they have to beat NJWS in bo5 as well before it, it won't be that easy either.
TSM hadn't practiced for a month, Amazing got dropped to Germany because of visa issues for a week, so they got basically 2 weeks, it's nothing.
And CLG didn't have game problems, it was all about tiltiing hard and making stupid decisions, not like they're changing their playstyle completely in Korea.
Allstars, rofl. Best tournament to bring up, like, seriously. Why not IEM?
About Amazing. He's com-ple-te-ly useless outside of Elise, it's not funny to call Shook or Cyanide here, we're speaking about Amazing and not pointing fingers in kids style like it was in school:
- Why do you have that grade?
- But he has it as well!
On less serious note:
>>TSM is literally NA ALL
It's not even funny. Especially, calling out Lustboy for not being top of the class when he was top-2 Korean support for until Blaze's collapse against dade for 1,5 years and then was considered as top-3 safely, until Heart's and Piccaboo's rise.
Well, it might sound harsh, but TSM ain't even close to Alliance. Wickd won't feed like Dyrus can, Shook at least, can force something somewhere, Froggen is 2 heads above Bjergsen right now when Syndra is banned, WT is slumping for 2 splits already while Tabzz is going to be best EU ad tomorrow and poor Lustboy just got brought into team.
It's not like i defending Fnatic or don't want CLG to win Worlds, but, it's just lol.
Time will tell how it goes, i'm still going with [A] as team with best Western chances at Worlds if they don't get hit by Blue/OMG or White/OMG groups, other are durable, Fnatic as second and CLG as third if they qualify.
They practiced for the superweek and they probably got a substitute jungler to practice while Amazing was gone which allowed building synergy with Lustboy, and Amazing could spend that time widening his champion pool, so not ideal, but not completely wasted. And lol, "making stupid decisions" isn't a game problem? A problem that might be fixed by having a coach in-person and practicing against team that will heavily punish you for those decisions rather than just trolling around?
Are you implying that IEM and Allstars are worse measure of a team than LCS?
Wut, Amazing did just as well on Lee as on Elise, and I'm only calling out Cyanide and Shook because we're comparing NA and EU World's representatives. If Amazing's strength is playing junglers with good clear and ganks (just like Shook supposedly!) than I think he will do better now that you don't have to just ban 2 champions against him since Kha is back in the fray.
Can't really add anything to the last point since I already stated my opinion on TSM, only that I wasn't the most avid watcher during S2, but I though that Cain, Madlife and later Mafa (and Mata, and Mandu) were generally considered better than Lustboy, but now I'm only repeating what I heard. Other than that, Dyrus can feed just as hard as Wickd picking a champ he can't play and building something stupid on him, Tabzz lol and I'm not judging Bjergsen vs Froggen based on the allstar showmatch. That's why it's C9 > CLG/TSM > ALL/FNC for me.
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Hm I'm probably late to this, but I am interested in seeing some behind the scenes stuff with teams like Chasing the Cup Season 2 series produced by MachinimaVS which follows CLG and C9. I just found out about it. Is there anything else similar to this with other teams?
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On August 17 2014 15:33 ketchup wrote:
Hm I'm probably late to this, but I am interested in seeing some behind the scenes stuff with teams like Chasing the Cup Season 2 series produced by MachinimaVS which follows CLG and C9. I just found out about it. Is there anything else similar to this with other teams?
To my knowlegde there were two more things like this. The first one is famous CLG documentary which was recorded around the CLG's season 2 trip to Korea. It was first aired as a 4-part series of 8-17 minute long episodes, but an uncut version was later released which is generally considered to be better.
The second is Gamecrib, which is pretty much the first Chasing the Cup (same concept), except it followed TSM exclusively during season 3. Worse production, more filler, but also more drama.
Season 1: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=EL1dpKNAyqb4o
Season 2: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=ELRY02ZLSpIZc
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On August 17 2014 16:04 AlterKot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2014 15:33 ketchup wrote:
Hm I'm probably late to this, but I am interested in seeing some behind the scenes stuff with teams like Chasing the Cup Season 2 series produced by MachinimaVS which follows CLG and C9. I just found out about it. Is there anything else similar to this with other teams? To my knowlegde there were two more things like this. The first one is famous CLG documentary which was recorded around the CLG's season 2 trip to Korea. It was first aired as a 4-part series of 8-17 minute long episodes, but an uncut version was later released which is generally considered to be better. The second is Gamecrib, which is pretty much the first Chasing the Cup (same concept), except it followed TSM exclusively during season 3. Worse production, more filler, but also more drama. Season 1: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=EL1dpKNAyqb4oSeason 2: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=ELRY02ZLSpIZc
Thanks. I have already watched all of these from before since I find the behind the scene stuff more interesting.
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When has NA ever outperformed EU, besides post-season show match events when Fnatic shows up out of practise and gets wrecked?
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The whole discussion on this page seems weird to me. Some Eu team has to beat another EU team hard to be better at worlds?
I also dont get why people seem to think All has the better chances at worlds than Fnatic. Where is this coming from? Usually I saw EU pros rate Fnatic higher than All.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On August 17 2014 21:54 Redox wrote:
The whole discussion on this page seems weird to me. Some Eu team has to beat another EU team hard to be better at worlds?
I also dont get why people seem to think All has the better chances at worlds than Fnatic. Where is this coming from? Usually I saw EU pros rate Fnatic higher than All.
sOAZ is choking a bit too much this season and his perfomance is usually key for Fnatic's success.
And Froggen is core of Alliance, everything is around him and i don't remember when he choked last time, i guess, it was in 2012 if was at all.
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Woolite - Rookie of the Year
Nyph - Most assists in summer split (Why not call this best support player or something considering assists mean a lot for support players)
Rekkles - Most lethal player in summer split & Most Valuable Player of 2014 summer split
Do they not do individual role awards? Do they get money for these awards? What's the reason for the awards if they don't earn anything from it? So confused
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On August 17 2014 22:04 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2014 21:54 Redox wrote:
The whole discussion on this page seems weird to me. Some Eu team has to beat another EU team hard to be better at worlds?
I also dont get why people seem to think All has the better chances at worlds than Fnatic. Where is this coming from? Usually I saw EU pros rate Fnatic higher than All. sOAZ is choking a bit too much this season and his perfomance is usually key for Fnatic's success.
He's just way too inconsistent imo.
Like his swain and nida were rly good but his alistar extremely underwhelming with questionable items.
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On August 17 2014 22:04 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2014 21:54 Redox wrote:
The whole discussion on this page seems weird to me. Some Eu team has to beat another EU team hard to be better at worlds?
I also dont get why people seem to think All has the better chances at worlds than Fnatic. Where is this coming from? Usually I saw EU pros rate Fnatic higher than All. sOAZ is choking a bit too much this season and his perfomance is usually key for Fnatic's success. And Froggen is core of Alliance, everything is around him and i don't remember when he choked last time, i guess, it was in 2012 if was at all.
You mistake this fnatic for earlier seasons.Rekkles/yellowstar is the core of the team and it all comes down if the laners and jungler aren't too heavy.
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Typical Riot: we can't give one player 2 awards in a row, so Rekkles gets MVP not Froggen.
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Kind of funny to have them standing there with their prizes before they're even announced. I guess riot's new strategy to avoid awkward award ceremonies is to give the prizes out off camera :p
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EPT
