EPT[Riot] LoL All-Stars Tournament 2014 - Page 101
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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
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Sleight
2471 Posts
On May 10 2014 08:11 MattBarry wrote: Yeah. Fnatic is the most stacked team with mechanical talent in the West, maybe tied with supercharged Amazing TSM. Fucking TSM man, they keep picking up players I like, I'm basically a fan now Even though balls is mechanically better than dyrus, meteos is better than amazing, and lemon is better than gleeb, 2 is totally more than 3. I doubt there is a meaningful gap between Sneaky and Turtle. Hai 1v1'd bjergsen last match so the gap can't be that big. | ||
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Tribute
United States146 Posts
On May 10 2014 09:20 NeoIllusions wrote: Easier? Doesn't that just mean NA doesn't have talent if you're opting to import from EU (actually costing you more)? It's the old adage of "Cheap, Good, Fast: Pick two." NA teams, having an abundance of money, can afford to forgo picking up an unknown player and possibly have to go through a developmental season. Instead they get someone who can produce results right away and who is tested in a LAN setting. Doesn't mean there's no talent in NA, just that teams are more focused on immediate results. Which is actually a little concerning in terms of developing the NA scene. It's not the end of the world, but up and coming talent in NA need an path to get LAN experience, and if importing continues, LCS won't be the place to get that experience, at least not on top teams. Maybe from the bottom 4 teams? | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On May 10 2014 09:32 Tribute wrote: It's the old adage of "Cheap, Good, Fast: Pick two." NA teams, having an abundance of money, can afford to forgo picking up an unknown player and possibly have to go through a developmental season. Instead they get someone who can produce results right away and who is tested in a LAN setting. Doesn't mean there's no talent in NA, just that teams are more focused on immediate results. Which is actually a little concerning in terms of developing the NA scene. It's not the end of the world, but up and coming talent in NA need an path to get LAN experience, and if importing continues, LCS won't be the place to get that experience, at least not on top teams. Maybe from the bottom 4 teams? If importing continues, LCS will just grow in size, that's it. Or it will be like NA SC2. | ||
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SimulatedAnneal
765 Posts
On May 10 2014 09:07 MattBarry wrote: NA may be on an upswing now but I feel like NA teams with exception of Cloud9 are applying band-aid solutions to serious problems. There's simply no reason for NAs talent to be so far behind EUs. We can't keep importing Europeans forever...I think. It's not like these Europeans are competing in the challenger scene either so our amateur talent isn't getting any better from it. Of course there's a reason. EU has 2.5x the ranked population of NA . This means both that NA's best player is likely worse than EU's best player and that the 40 best players in NA are probably worse than their counterpart among the 40 best players in EU. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
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MattBarry
United States4006 Posts
On May 10 2014 09:25 Sleight wrote: Even though balls is mechanically better than dyrus, meteos is better than amazing, and lemon is better than gleeb, 2 is totally more than 3. I doubt there is a meaningful gap between Sneaky and Turtle. Hai 1v1'd bjergsen last match so the gap can't be that big. I completely agree that C9 being weak mechanically is a bunch of crap, maybe in comparison to Korea yeah. But C9 has either number 1 2 or arguably 3 in mechanics in every role. I'm hesitant to say they're better mechanically than TSM, though gleeb is a huge step down from xpecial On May 10 2014 09:39 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: If importing continues, LCS will just grow in size, that's it. Or it will be like NA SC2. There's no reason to believe LCS will be expanding any time soon. Riot hasn't said anything regarding if the LCS is making money, though the exposure factor is hard to quantify plus it keeps people into the game. I'd wait for Riot to officially say something on that before counting on it | ||
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
 ) on top of money and fame. EG is one move that I actually didn't like, but I put more blame to the Riot's relegation system than to them allowing Garfield's shenaningans to go through. I dunno, I like the changes, NA will finally be enjoyable to watch for me and EU is going nowhere.And I agree with Loco that NA being "less mechanically talented" than EU is no longer true - I'd argue that CLG might have the most individual talent in the west right now, and both TSM and C9 aren't terribly far. Even Dig might be strong in that regard right now. | ||
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MattBarry
United States4006 Posts
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
Which broke my heart btw, I loved Amazing/Forgiven/Unlimited lineup. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On May 10 2014 09:20 NeoIllusions wrote: Easier? Doesn't that just mean NA doesn't have talent if you're opting to import from EU (actually costing you more)? It's a matter of developing talent. why bother doing that when you can go EG style and buy proven talent. | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On May 10 2014 10:00 MattBarry wrote: I completely agree that C9 being weak mechanically is a bunch of crap, maybe in comparison to Korea yeah. But C9 has either number 1 2 or arguably 3 in mechanics in every role. I'm hesitant to say they're better mechanically than TSM, though gleeb is a huge step down from xpecial There's no reason to believe LCS will be expanding any time soon. Riot hasn't said anything regarding if the LCS is making money, though the exposure factor is hard to quantify plus it keeps people into the game. I'd wait for Riot to officially say something on that before counting on it If it doesn't make the money at all, considering gains from viewership, merchandise on venues and other stuff, i'm not sure, should Riot keep it or change their business model of paying for everything and controlling everything by themselves. And ofc, time to blame lack of official merchandise shop as well, i assume that it will take longer than implementing replay system into client. I don't see a reason to expand either, but if top teams are going to go hard this split and next, i'm probably be worried about so-called "mid-class" in LCS because it's going to be clear separation for "rich" and "poor". On May 10 2014 10:18 AlterKot wrote: What new midlaner? And after watching playoffs I'm not sure if replacing youngbuck shouldn't be a bigger priority. Maybe Amazing just went for cash, but I imagine him and Forgiven jumping the ship might've been just as well because Youngbuck and Cowtard didn't plan on stepping down. Which broke my heart btw, I loved Amazing/Forgiven/Unlimited lineup. You're replacing toplaners nowdays only in critical situations. Midlane is way more valuable and cowTard just doesn't seem to perform on LCS stage, nothing changed since 2013. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
I know a lot of you disagreed with me on this before, but I still think individual strength wise NA is not really that behind. I think C9 showed that you can take a team of above-average players (but in no way dominating in individual strengths) and turn it into a great team with good management and training. LoL is a team game. But more than that, not only can a single misplay from a single player flat out throw away a match, sometimes you can be (perceived or real) the best player on your team and not perform due to some external circumstances (lane swaps, teammate fed, camping, etc.). In this kind of environment, how do you motivate your players to work their hardest every day to achieve a goal as a team? How do you measure the individual growth of each player on a team, especially when their performance can depend on numerous external factors? How do you prepare them psychologically for the big stage with high stakes? How do you discipline your under-performing players? I think these are all very difficult questions and (IMO) harder to deal with than some of the classic professional sports. This is not Starcraft Proleague. In those kinds of set ups, you can literally just buy the best playerss and make them win for you - and you can easily measure their performance by their game record. I don't think LoL management is this straight forward. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
I mean, just list top 5 skill wise for each role within NA/EU. Most of those lists except maybe ADC is going to be predominantly EU. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
Not sure how serious lomonation and sneaky are, but they don't think they have that great of a chance against OMG. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On May 10 2014 08:41 Zergneedsfood wrote: People watching OMG who have seen OMG play would get the impression that they were sandbagging. People who have not watched a lot of LPL probably wouldn't know though. Again, that doesn't discount the fact that C9 played well and OMG played badly (missing ults, etc. etc.), but I think the sandbagging is there for people who know how OMG plays and what they draft. Sandbagging just like they did for the finals of LPL last year and Worlds. Brilliant strategy. With that said I'd put a lot of money on OMG to win vs C9. | ||
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Lylat
France8575 Posts
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On May 10 2014 12:30 Sufficiency wrote: I still think what makes an LCS team good is management and team synergy. I know a lot of you disagreed with me on this before, but I still think individual strength wise NA is not really that behind. I think C9 showed that you can take a team of above-average players (but in no way dominating in individual strengths) and turn it into a great team with good management and training. LoL is a team game. But more than that, not only can a single misplay from a single player flat out throw away a match, sometimes you can be (perceived or real) the best player on your team and not perform due to some external circumstances (lane swaps, teammate fed, camping, etc.). In this kind of environment, how do you motivate your players to work their hardest every day to achieve a goal as a team? How do you measure the individual growth of each player on a team, especially when their performance can depend on numerous external factors? How do you prepare them psychologically for the big stage with high stakes? How do you discipline your under-performing players? I think these are all very difficult questions and (IMO) harder to deal with than some of the classic professional sports. This is not Starcraft Proleague. In those kinds of set ups, you can literally just buy the best playerss and make them win for you - and you can easily measure their performance by their game record. I don't think LoL management is this straight forward. It's not like my lovely SKT T1 started to win consistently in Proleague only for last few weeks, rolling in Code S and failing in SPL for months before. And it's nothing different with classic sports. There are known hockey players, who're used to be training beasts, rolling everyone on their heads in training and then come to game and fail everything, same in football, and so on. And it's not like, haha, that someone alone can't throw a game in american football, soccer and so on. So sports and esports in general have many things in common. And about NA talent. Better midlaners are in EU, for supports NA has 2 mechanically legit guys and Lemon, no junglers for NA because of it, 4/8 are imports and one is Chinese, toplane is most dead position in the West with hyped Balls failing mechanically against SKT T1 and slumping sOAZ and there is a thing with ads that if Doublelift retires after this split, NA will be left with Sneaky on downfall after his peak, with qtpie and WildTurtle diving enemies backlines. While EU is growing up a lot in marksman/adc talent, getting Rekkles, Tabzz and so on. On May 10 2014 15:59 Lylat wrote: I also think that OMG didn't play at 100% vs C9 but that doesn't mean C9 will lose. I think they have a fairly good chance of winning if they don't choke because despite having a sub they're playing very well.. If OMG plays at least for 80%, they will just roll C9 over. Remember, how Lemondogs were smashed by Cool and company, picking Cassiopeia, Nidlaee, Veigar and jungle Yorick? They weren't even trying when doing it and Lemondogs were best team on the West back in the S3 Worlds. | ||
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Lylat
France8575 Posts
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
That being said, giving pomelo lee sin is sandbagging lol. When LPL degenerates into "our matches don't matter let's yolo" most teams are running top annie, jayce and blitz botlanes and karthus jungle, when OMG is doing that pomelo gets lee sin he really does blow at lee. Still I think C9 has a better shot than people think as long as moemoelink survives against xiyang reasonably well. | ||
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