Balls failing against SKT was largely Cloud 9's macro level strat being extremely poor and screwing over Balls. It looked ugly, but you can't really judge a player by that. He screwed up once against Piglet and Pooh and he was done. Anything after that was pretty meaningless, he was never going to be relevant in that game after that.

Same thing happened to Gogoing against Cloud 9, so Cloud 9 obviously learned from that game and got better.

The NA vs EU discussion on talent is stupid. Aside from the tippity top (and probably including), they're both light years behind China or Korea. Having more depth doesn't particularly matter if all your teams are mired in mediocrity with no end in sight.

Fusilero

United Kingdom50293 Posts

May 10 2014 08:39 GMT

#2022

In the current meta it's absurdly hard to compare top laners, most will live or die by their team's early game plan so a top laner can get screwed out of the game due to poor macro stratetgies that leave them starved under their T1 while their counterpart had frozen a wave at the T2

Bulgaria4134 Posts

May 10 2014 09:17 GMT

#2023

On May 10 2014 17:39 Fusilero wrote:
In the current meta it's absurdly hard to compare top laners, most will live or die by their team's early game plan so a top laner can get screwed out of the game due to poor macro stratetgies that leave them starved under their T1 while their counterpart had frozen a wave at the T2

Yeah agree, couple of days ago I was thinking that in the current meta top laners will be better of picking another support, so they can have a champ that is actually useful even without items and levels. Not saying this will work but definitely put a thought on it

AlterKot

Poland7525 Posts

May 10 2014 09:20 GMT

#2024

On May 10 2014 12:44 wei2coolman wrote:
I mean, just list top 5 skill wise for each role within NA/EU.
Most of those lists except maybe ADC is going to be predominantly EU.

Top: Balls, Zoro, Wickd, Seraph, Quas?, Soaz?, Kevin?
Jungle: Meteos, Amazing, Svenskeren, Dexter, k0u?, Shook?
Mid: Froggen, Bjergsen, Nuke, Shiptur, Hai?, Overpow?
ADC: Rekkles, Doublelift, Tabzz?, Forgiven?, Rallez?, Sneaky?
Support: Moo, Xpecial, Vander, Yellowstar?, Mithy?, Edward?

I think both "NA has better ADC" and "EU has better players" are stupid stereotypes. I mean, we have a couple more but duh, we have 2.5x more players in ranked ladder.

Comparing toplaners by their mid-late game decisions, I wanna oficially give The Westrice Award to Achie, for proving that toplane is hard.

wei2coolman

United States60033 Posts

May 10 2014 09:22 GMT

#2025

DL sneaky and turtle all in top 5 western adc imo. But pretty much all those other slots are about right. See how far behind NA is in terms of talent?

Also shiphtur over hai and nukeduck imo.

AlterKot

Poland7525 Posts

May 10 2014 09:30 GMT

#2026

Alright I added Shiptur.

NA: Balls, Quas, Meteos, Shiptur, Hai, Doublelift, Sneaky, Moo, Xpecial
EU: Zoro, Wickd, Soaz, Amazing, Svenskeren, Dexter, k0u/shook, Froggen, Bjergsen, Nuke, Rekkles, Tabzz, Forgiven, Yellowstar, Mithy, Vander

9 to 16 - pretty good imho for a region that has 2.5 less ranked players. Not to mention that I would personally call Dexter and Bjergsen NA players at this point.

I'm also not sure if I would be confident in calling any western team "the best at Worlds" because fnatic got a much easier bracket than LD, but the latter didn't really look like they would beat fnatic. As a matter of fact, they didn't in playoffs.

Itsmedudeman

United States19229 Posts

May 10 2014 09:42 GMT

#2027

Jesus christ can people stop saying shiptur is good. Shiptur is good at laning that is IT. He is not close to international mids whatsoever, his champion pool is ass, and he is terrible at team fighting.

Fusilero

United Kingdom50293 Posts

May 10 2014 09:54 GMT

#2028

I'd honestly take hai over nukeduck, I think hai is top 5 western mid imo

AlterKot

Poland7525 Posts

May 10 2014 09:55 GMT

#2029

Who would you take over him? Link, Overpow, xPeke? We're comparing EU to NA only.

Also, I admit that I put players in order from the best to 5th in my opinion, but the important part was to list 5 in each role.

Doctorbeat

Netherlands13241 Posts

May 10 2014 10:31 GMT

#2030

On May 10 2014 18:54 Fusilero wrote:
I'd honestly take hai over nukeduck, I think hai is top 5 western mid imo

Definitely. Him being the shotcaller increases his value too, just like Reginaldo used to be more valuable to TSM than people thought.

If I had to make those lists:

Top: Balls, Wickd, Kev1n, Seraph, Zion
Jungle: Meteos, Cyanide, Dexter, Amazing, TOO (RIP)
Mid: Hai, Froggen, Bjergsen, L1nk, XWX/Nukeduck/Shiphtur
AD: Sneaky, WildTurtle, Doublelift, Candypanda, Rekkles
Support: Yellowstar, Aphromoo, Lemonnation, Nyph, nRated

EU mid pool has declined severely. We used to have xPeke/Alex/Froggen as the absolute rulers of mid lane that could compete internationally. xPeke and Alex have lost their passion, other mids aren't remarkable other than Nukeduck.

Oh and C9 OP.

Doctorbeat

Netherlands13241 Posts

May 10 2014 11:04 GMT

#2031

Kobe's looking incredibly tired.

Dan HH

Romania9161 Posts

May 10 2014 11:05 GMT

#2032

I figured out why C9 is doing so well. Remember how CLG with subs always got better results at events? What we're seeing here is their ultimate form, CLG with 4 subs

Fusilero

United Kingdom50293 Posts

May 10 2014 11:06 GMT

#2033

Archie can't cut a break, jungle ezreal into utility bitch pantheon into 1v1ing shy.
OH MAN LUCIAN, I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE FUCKING LUCIAN SO HYPED WOW