On March 17 2014 07:38 Itsmedudeman wrote: The KT B at this tournament was significantly better than the one that lost to IM twice. For one, Insec was actually the star instead of a feeder. He was the main reason KT B lost to IM in both those games. Also, their late game execution was incredibly strong, even by Korean standards. One of the few teams that really know how to close out games, even when they only have a couple thousand gold lead and/or have a weaker late game team composition.
That's because the way Insec plays involves making flashy, high-risk plays. Which consequently means he will always be the star vs. weaker teams and always be the feeder vs stronger teams.
It's a poor quality to have as a jungler at the level of play amongst the top OGN teams because the best teams WILL punish you for playing that way. It can be somewhat desirable to have a player like that on other roles, but jungle definitely not.
I'm hesitant to make a judgement right now, but I do agree. Insec's jungling style this tournament was actually not very korean relative to season 4. He camped a lot and against really smart teams that might end up putting him very far behind. I also didn't think he played the early game jungle as well as some other korean junglers who typically get a gank and transition that into an easy objective.
Still, he was impressive in his own way this tournament, and even against a well respected jungler like diamond he ended up outpressuring him.
On March 17 2014 07:52 orzeu wrote: Ofc that gap between KR and West has widened and people that think is different are retarded. There is no money in Western scene compare to Korea (especially EU) and most teams has terrible management. China is not miles ahead only because they are 10 patch behind and they make retarded roster changes.
There's lots of money in Western LoL but it doesn't come from sponsors but streaming and Riot. Where in KR the teams are owned by sponsors and teams have to perform in order to stay on the team and get a bit of money, NA/EU you are guaranteed a salary by Riot for LCS qualification even if you play like shit the whole LCS long. There is no sponsor pressure to make the team perform.
This is imo one overlooked reason why the KR scene is far more competitive.
On March 17 2014 06:06 Reggiegigas wrote: I knew this would happen, I predicted the result.
I'm just thinking, this must be crushing for a lot of the LCS players to see. It's not even the best korean team and they absolutely destroy everyone without losing even once. Not a single game. What can they even do? "Try to practice harder"?
I think most NA pros reached thus conclusion at end of s2. Now it's all about the entertainment value.
That's pretty insulting to LCS players (he was talking about LCS players, not just NA players) to assume that they stopped trying at the end of season 2. I don't think it's fair to apply your sensibilities to people who have actually experienced pro gaming success at a high level, those guys are EXTREMLY competitive, thats why they're good at the game and why they are on pro teams. If they truly didn't think they had any realistic shot at ever beating koreans they would probably just retire/become full time streamers. Also, KTB is one of the best teams in Korea, i'm tired of people saying theyre "not even the best team in korea" they are one of the top 3 or 4 teams from KR, a region where the skill gap between teams is MUCH smaller compared to a region like NA where the top teams are WAY way better than the bottom teams. After watching this IEM and comparing it to the matches at World's, even though Fnatic lost 3-0 to KTB, it seems like the LCS teams are closing the gap to the Koreans, very slowly but surely. The LCS teams have likely surpassed the chinese/SEA teams (for the time being) and the gap between the top EU and NA teams is almost negligible at this point.
It's hardly insulting.
this has simply been the thought process since post s2. A lot of the pros only want to be good enough so they put up decent scores among each other, I'm sure there are some pros that have the hunger, but single players aren't good enough, you need multiple teams with that hunger to be the best to create a competitive environment so eventually a team pops up to that level.
In regards to insec, I dunno why they moved him from top lane back to jungle. His stupidly aggressive playmaking style was so good with all that extra solo lane gold.
On March 17 2014 07:52 orzeu wrote: Ofc that gap between KR and West has widened and people that think is different are retarded. There is no money in Western scene compare to Korea (especially EU) and most teams has terrible management. China is not miles ahead only because they are 10 patch behind and they make retarded roster changes.
How is there no money in western LoL? Im 99% sure there is MORE money in western LoL. The problem is with the players/teams. There is a much bigger drive to excel coming from Korea. They don't settle for being less then the best and they actually have good practice methods.
There entire team practice structure is just so much better. And the reason for that is only that the west can barely be bothered to do it. Its not a mystery how these teams operate. You just have to go and do it yourself aswell.
On March 17 2014 07:52 orzeu wrote: Ofc that gap between KR and West has widened and people that think is different are retarded. There is no money in Western scene compare to Korea (especially EU) and most teams has terrible management. China is not miles ahead only because they are 10 patch behind and they make retarded roster changes.
There's lots of money in Western LoL but it doesn't come from sponsors but streaming and Riot. Where in KR the teams are owned by sponsors and teams have to perform in order to stay on the team and get a bit of money, NA/EU you are guaranteed a salary by Riot for LCS qualification even if you play like shit the whole LCS long. There is no sponsor pressure to make the team perform.
This is imo one overlooked reason why the KR scene is far more competitive.
It's not overlooked teams/players just don't care because there's still good money coming in.
On March 17 2014 07:38 Itsmedudeman wrote: The KT B at this tournament was significantly better than the one that lost to IM twice. For one, Insec was actually the star instead of a feeder. He was the main reason KT B lost to IM in both those games. Also, their late game execution was incredibly strong, even by Korean standards. One of the few teams that really know how to close out games, even when they only have a couple thousand gold lead and/or have a weaker late game team composition.
On the other hand though their early game gank execution looked really off. Not just messing up ganks, but dying under turret several times and trading evenly is not something you want to do against other Korean teams who know how to snowball games and counter jungle pressure. This is where Kakao was a much better jungler.
not sure about him being better. he didn't play vi but played khazix. that alone should make him look much better. he's made his share of big mistakes that got his team behind but they didn't lose because of it.
about ktb though, they were never a team that won because of outplays. they won based on their edge in macro play and pick/bans. people say korean teams have improved in that department across the board this season, especially the weaker teams. they do have very high amount of scrimming, and exchanging information between sister teams can get them at least competent in the macro rotations.
On March 17 2014 07:52 orzeu wrote: Ofc that gap between KR and West has widened and people that think is different are retarded. There is no money in Western scene compare to Korea (especially EU) and most teams has terrible management. China is not miles ahead only because they are 10 patch behind and they make retarded roster changes.
How is there no money in western LoL? Im 99% sure there is MORE money in western LoL. The problem is with the players/teams. There is a much bigger drive to excel coming from Korea. They don't settle for being less then the best and they actually have good practice methods.
There entire team practice structure is just so much better. And the reason for that is only that the west can barely be bothered to do it. Its not a mystery how these teams operate. You just have to go and do it yourself aswell.
So you are saying that western teams has more money then Kespa teams?
kespa teams have more money towards the infrastructure, but their players are not better off than a western personality who streams with good numbers. it's a different business model
On March 17 2014 07:52 orzeu wrote: Ofc that gap between KR and West has widened and people that think is different are retarded. There is no money in Western scene compare to Korea (especially EU) and most teams has terrible management. China is not miles ahead only because they are 10 patch behind and they make retarded roster changes.
How is there no money in western LoL? Im 99% sure there is MORE money in western LoL. The problem is with the players/teams. There is a much bigger drive to excel coming from Korea. They don't settle for being less then the best and they actually have good practice methods.
There entire team practice structure is just so much better. And the reason for that is only that the west can barely be bothered to do it. Its not a mystery how these teams operate. You just have to go and do it yourself aswell.
So you are saying that western teams has more money then Kespa teams?
Champions Winter's prize for 1st place was ~75k. Iirc, a team in LCS makes $125k for being in a single split.
Even if a team were to win 1st place in Champions Winter, Spring, and Summer they will make around $25k less regular season prize money than a team that is in LCS and does nothing outside of not being relegated.
Odee has confirmed that Scarra, by himself, will earn ~$200k this year.
On March 17 2014 08:51 oneofthem wrote: kespa teams have more money towards the infrastructure, but their players are not better off than a western personality who streams with good numbers. it's a different business model
Most pro players are not personalities tho and most of lcs players make nothing from streaming. Western scene needs infrastructure to improve.
On March 17 2014 07:52 orzeu wrote: Ofc that gap between KR and West has widened and people that think is different are retarded. There is no money in Western scene compare to Korea (especially EU) and most teams has terrible management. China is not miles ahead only because they are 10 patch behind and they make retarded roster changes.
How is there no money in western LoL? Im 99% sure there is MORE money in western LoL. The problem is with the players/teams. There is a much bigger drive to excel coming from Korea. They don't settle for being less then the best and they actually have good practice methods.
There entire team practice structure is just so much better. And the reason for that is only that the west can barely be bothered to do it. Its not a mystery how these teams operate. You just have to go and do it yourself aswell.
So you are saying that western teams has more money then Kespa teams?
Ofc TSM isnt going to outspend Samsung if it came down to it but you combine accommodations + salary + living expenses ect ect then yes I say western teams have/spend more then Kespa teams. The difference between Korea and the rest of the world isn't because of how much money they spend.
On March 17 2014 07:52 orzeu wrote: Ofc that gap between KR and West has widened and people that think is different are retarded. There is no money in Western scene compare to Korea (especially EU) and most teams has terrible management. China is not miles ahead only because they are 10 patch behind and they make retarded roster changes.
How is there no money in western LoL? Im 99% sure there is MORE money in western LoL. The problem is with the players/teams. There is a much bigger drive to excel coming from Korea. They don't settle for being less then the best and they actually have good practice methods.
There entire team practice structure is just so much better. And the reason for that is only that the west can barely be bothered to do it. Its not a mystery how these teams operate. You just have to go and do it yourself aswell.
So you are saying that western teams has more money then Kespa teams?
Champions Winter's prize for 1st place was ~75k. Iirc, a team in LCS makes $125k for being in a single split.
Even if a team were to win 1st place in Champions Winter, Spring, and Summer they will make around $25k less regular season prize money than a team that is in LCS and does nothing outside of not being relegated.
Odee has confirmed that Scarra, by himself, will earn ~$200k this year.
You are talking about super star. Look at LD last year. They were living for 4 months in shitty hotel, practicing in esl studio while being the best team in EU. Also I was talking not about players salaries, but money invested in to a team, like management and stuff.
Lemondogs is a notoriously terrible organization with little to no serious management. Good organizations like SK, Fnatic, Alliance etc provide team houses. Keep in mind that the LCS is still young and it takes time to establish solid infrastructure.
NA had teams moving all over the place last season. Teams had no coaching, a lot of infighting and only a basic amount of management. The scene became a lot more professional in just a few months. Now the teams have a supporting staff that consists of multiple people usually.
Proteams are making huge leaps towards a more professional structure. A lot has to grow over time though. Korea has an advantage of more than ten years, you can't close the game in a few months. The West has money and is investing it. You can't deny that.
The total money allocated to TSM and SKT(K) is probably fairly similar if you include stream revenue and sales and other stuff. Difference lies elsewhere, SKT gets ROI through advertising, and very likely has a much, much larger set of staff to pay.
Outside the top KR/LCS teams though, definitely much better conditions for the LCS teams.
On March 17 2014 09:41 Don_Julio wrote:A lot has to grow over time though. Korea has an advantage of more than ten years, you can't close the game in a few months. The West has money and is investing it. You can't deny that.
A lot of people keep bringing up that Korea had the infrastructure but I dont buy it as a reason. Yes they had it with BW but the west could have just as easily copied that system that we know works when the scene here developed. They just chose not to do it.
And that is the point behind almost every reason why the west is behind. They could have done X. But they chose not to do it.
On March 17 2014 09:41 Don_Julio wrote:A lot has to grow over time though. Korea has an advantage of more than ten years, you can't close the game in a few months. The West has money and is investing it. You can't deny that.
A lot of people keep bringing up that Korea had the infrastructure but I dont buy it as a reason. Yes they had it with BW but the west could have just as easily copied that system that we know works when the scene here developed. They just chose not to do it.
And that is the point behind almost every reason why the west is behind. They could have done X. But they chose not to do it.
It's not so much a "choice". For Korean E-sports to get where it is now, a lot of people had to work hard and fail to get nothing. Korean E-sports was built on a history of people who took those hard times and made those sacrifices for the scene to grow. It's not just a simple thing to ask people to be those forerunners who will ultimately end up with nothing so that the Flashes and Jaedongs of the future that they haven't met yet can exist.
On March 17 2014 09:41 Don_Julio wrote:A lot has to grow over time though. Korea has an advantage of more than ten years, you can't close the game in a few months. The West has money and is investing it. You can't deny that.
A lot of people keep bringing up that Korea had the infrastructure but I dont buy it as a reason. Yes they had it with BW but the west could have just as easily copied that system that we know works when the scene here developed. They just chose not to do it.
And that is the point behind almost every reason why the west is behind. They could have done X. But they chose not to do it.
That statement is false. It's not just a system people can copy that easily. There are also a lot of cultural differences involved. Add in to the fact, in the old days, that solo queue streamers can potentially make a lot of money just streaming(in comparison to tournaments), there was very little incentive to get a team house for most teams. Another problem is that it's not like these teams who are spending real money on it will magically decide everything works now that they have a copied system from overseas. That's not how things work. I don't understand why you seem to think copying a system that works for one culture, will work for another 1-to-1. They need to adapt the structure in their own way, and that takes a long time. Another problem you are forgetting is that most of the leaders of the teams are still relatively young. There's no such thing as a player association either. There's a lot of things wrong with that statement.
EPT
