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Stop arguing or baiting about nationalities or regions. -Page 231 |
On March 17 2014 09:41 Don_Julio wrote:
Lemondogs is a notoriously terrible organization with little to no serious management. Good organizations like SK, Fnatic, Alliance etc provide team houses. Keep in mind that the LCS is still young and it takes time to establish solid infrastructure.
NA had teams moving all over the place last season. Teams had no coaching, a lot of infighting and only a basic amount of management. The scene became a lot more professional in just a few months. Now the teams have a supporting staff that consists of multiple people usually.
Proteams are making huge leaps towards a more professional structure. A lot has to grow over time though. Korea has an advantage of more than ten years, you can't close the game in a few months. The West has money and is investing it. You can't deny that.
You think someone like Alliance would have coach/analyst. They don't and only person outside of team living with them is Krepo girlfriend.
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On March 17 2014 09:46 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 09:41 Don_Julio wrote:A lot has to grow over time though. Korea has an advantage of more than ten years, you can't close the game in a few months. The West has money and is investing it. You can't deny that. A lot of people keep bringing up that Korea had the infrastructure but I dont buy it as a reason. Yes they had it with BW but the west could have just as easily copied that system that we know works when the scene here developed. They just chose not to do it. And that is the point behind almost every reason why the west is behind. They could have done X. But they chose not to do it.
No. Old esports orgs have run teams for a decade. They have years of tial/error about what works and what doesn't. They have a proven track record of improving players. One of the biggest issues for LCS regions is analysts and coaches. Most of the people that are qualified are probably still playing. If you're a player, why would you want to take a step back and give up your already short career as a player? If you can't get somebody like Saint, who has a proven history of being competitive in the game, how do you get these kids will respect enough to listen to as a coach?
Another issue of "just copy it" is that teams aren't willing to tell you everything. Even Monte, who is pretty imbedded in the Korean scene will sometimes get denied an answer to a question because a team doesn't want to give up their methods.
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Well, DoTA2 is still able to be won by Europeans i.e. Na'Vi. My theory is that they love each other like brothers, they train extremely hard, so they stay together keep a good schedule and don't bitch about each other on Twitter.
Lots of teams have 1-2 guys who are total mercenaries and just are expendable. Koreans are often more together and have more camaraderie than NA teams.
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On March 17 2014 13:08 WoodLeagueAllStar wrote:
Well, DoTA2 is still able to be won by Europeans i.e. Na'Vi. My theory is that they love each other like brothers, they train extremely hard, so they stay together keep a good schedule and don't bitch about each other on Twitter.
Lots of teams have 1-2 guys who are total mercenaries and just are expendable. Koreans are often more together and have more camaraderie than NA teams.
Korean hasn't even had their Dota 2 servers for a year if I recall correctly, and LoL is already too ingrained for big old name sponsors to pick a team.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 17 2014 13:08 WoodLeagueAllStar wrote:
Well, DoTA2 is still able to be won by Europeans i.e. Na'Vi. My theory is that they love each other like brothers, they train extremely hard, so they stay together keep a good schedule and don't bitch about each other on Twitter.
Lots of teams have 1-2 guys who are total mercenaries and just are expendable. Koreans are often more together and have more camaraderie than NA teams.
The way the Na'Vi players have described the organization, you could probably also safely call Na'Vi's DotA management the best management in the West.
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On March 17 2014 13:08 WoodLeagueAllStar wrote:
Well, DoTA2 is still able to be won by Europeans i.e. Na'Vi. My theory is that they love each other like brothers, they train extremely hard, so they stay together keep a good schedule and don't bitch about each other on Twitter.
Lots of teams have 1-2 guys who are total mercenaries and just are expendable. Koreans are often more together and have more camaraderie than NA teams.
lol Na'Vi didn't practice for months after TI3 and they were still winning events.
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On March 17 2014 13:08 WoodLeagueAllStar wrote:
Well, DoTA2 is still able to be won by Europeans i.e. Na'Vi. My theory is that they love each other like brothers, they train extremely hard, so they stay together keep a good schedule and don't bitch about each other on Twitter.
Lots of teams have 1-2 guys who are total mercenaries and just are expendable. Koreans are often more together and have more camaraderie than NA teams.
Na'Vi doesn't train hard. The notion is completely ludicrous. At most they boot camp before big tournaments to get in shape.
From my limited understanding I'd surmise that in LoL sheer mechanics have more influence on the outcome of games. Dota on the other hand is a game of knowledge above all else. Team tactics and deep understanding of the game trump raw mechanics.
Having said that top western Dota players are clearly able to lane equally against their Chinese counterparts which does not hold true in LoL. Western LoL players get habitually owned in lane matchups against both Chinese and Korean teams. Of course it is possible that laning in Dota is mechanically less demanding than in LoL. I don't think this is true but I not anyway near knowledgeable enough to say for sure.
I'd also not overrate the strength of western Dota teams. Alliance and Na'Vi are evidently as strong as or at times even stronger than the Chinese teams. Equally evidently the other western teams are not.
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On March 18 2014 00:28 Hagen0 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 13:08 WoodLeagueAllStar wrote:
Well, DoTA2 is still able to be won by Europeans i.e. Na'Vi. My theory is that they love each other like brothers, they train extremely hard, so they stay together keep a good schedule and don't bitch about each other on Twitter.
Lots of teams have 1-2 guys who are total mercenaries and just are expendable. Koreans are often more together and have more camaraderie than NA teams.
Na'Vi doesn't train hard. The notion is completely ludicrous. At most they boot camp before big tournaments to get in shape. From my limited understanding I'd surmise that in LoL sheer mechanics have more influence on the outcome of games. Dota on the other hand is a game of knowledge above all else. Team tactics and deep understanding of the game trump raw mechanics. Having said that top western Dota players are clearly able to lane equally against their Chinese counterparts which does not hold true in LoL. Western LoL players get habitually owned in lane matchups against both Chinese and Korean teams. Of course it is possible that laning in Dota is mechanically less demanding than in LoL. I don't think this is true but I not anyway near knowledgeable enough to say for sure. I'd also not overrate the strength of western Dota teams. Alliance and Na'Vi are evidently as strong as or at times even stronger than the Chinese teams. Equally evidently the other western teams are not.
The conclusion I would draw is that in LoL strategical masterminding is a bit less valuable compared to raw mechanics/coordination than in DotA2. You see that in LoL fewer of the pros who don't have the mechanical skills remain pro each year. And the top teams all have insane mechanics.
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On March 18 2014 00:38 Doctorbeat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 00:28 Hagen0 wrote:On March 17 2014 13:08 WoodLeagueAllStar wrote:
Well, DoTA2 is still able to be won by Europeans i.e. Na'Vi. My theory is that they love each other like brothers, they train extremely hard, so they stay together keep a good schedule and don't bitch about each other on Twitter.
Lots of teams have 1-2 guys who are total mercenaries and just are expendable. Koreans are often more together and have more camaraderie than NA teams.
Na'Vi doesn't train hard. The notion is completely ludicrous. At most they boot camp before big tournaments to get in shape. From my limited understanding I'd surmise that in LoL sheer mechanics have more influence on the outcome of games. Dota on the other hand is a game of knowledge above all else. Team tactics and deep understanding of the game trump raw mechanics. Having said that top western Dota players are clearly able to lane equally against their Chinese counterparts which does not hold true in LoL. Western LoL players get habitually owned in lane matchups against both Chinese and Korean teams. Of course it is possible that laning in Dota is mechanically less demanding than in LoL. I don't think this is true but I not anyway near knowledgeable enough to say for sure. I'd also not overrate the strength of western Dota teams. Alliance and Na'Vi are evidently as strong as or at times even stronger than the Chinese teams. Equally evidently the other western teams are not. The conclusion I would draw is that in LoL strategical masterminding is a bit less valuable compared to raw mechanics/coordination than in DotA2. You see that in LoL fewer of the pros who don't have the mechanical skills remain pro each year. And the top teams all have insane mechanics.
NaVi plays and lives DotA, they're more or less the equivalent of Gambit in many ways
In terms of mechanics there was an age in which China Mechanics completely dominated the scene (towards the end of DotA1) but DotA2 created a fresh slate that gave the west a chance to get ahead, which they did. The lack of symmetric laning and non-linear scaling also helps alleviate the laning issue. If you watched the games you'll see that a laning advantage can be mitigated by teammate and doesn't lead directly to a won game.
There are often lopsided situations where a lane ends up 50-20 after 10 minutes, but due to non-linear scaling and a mobile meta that doesn't matter as much in DotA as it would in LoL.
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Finally got good internet and get to see day 1. I just cant comprehend how bad the WE mechanics are.
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On March 19 2014 10:31 cLutZ wrote:
Finally got good internet and get to see day 1. I just cant comprehend how bad the WE mechanics are.
Pretty incredulous considering how good their mechanics were just a week before IEM in the LPL...
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EPT
