EPT[S2] World Championships Discussion - Page 723
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Keep the rage to a minimum. This includes wait times between games, music, and balance. Fair warning to all. | ||
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scarper65
1560 Posts
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overt
United States9006 Posts
Froggen, jiji, Misaya, Alex Ich, Rapidstar, Toyz, scarra, and pretty much every AP mid at this tournament isn't going for kills in mid lane. They're going for farm and safe harass. It's why ocelote tried switching to top months ago, he saw mid as just a farm lane with few kills (which, when compared to how top and bot work these days is true mid is mostly a farm lane). Players who make things happen in mid game depend entirely on their team strategy, what champion they're playing, and then finally comes down to a player's personal preference. Anyone on TF is going to gank a lot and exert a lot of map pressure after 6. Anyone playing Anivia or Karthus is going to prefer to stay around and farm up for late game. Honestly there aren't any mids who stand out to me as being super aggressive. The only straight 1v1 kill in mid lane that I remember this entire tournament was when jiji killed zz1tai in mid. And jiji is supposed to be the most passive mid laner there is. edit: Oh and Alex Ich killing Toyz at wraiths when Alex was playing Eve. Giving Froggen shit for being too passive is something his team chooses to do. They typically don't play very aggressive in mid game and prefer to wait for late game. So why would Froggen play against what the rest of his team wants to do? On October 12 2012 05:22 wei2coolman wrote: He doesn't know how to play aggressive in a 1v1 situation, he rarely creates his own plays in mid. It has to be a huge slip up on enemy mid for him to get the kill. As much shit as people give Regi for being too stupidly aggressive, he's one of the few mids nowadays that is willing to create his own plays in mid. Playing passive in lane is fine, but playing passive, and lack of map mobility/presence, really hurts. As far as the whole Toyz thing is concerned, lilballz compensates ridiculously well, but if you look at Game 1 against M5, toyz lack of map presence (despite being karthus) really hurt them badly. Karth isn't going to go gank. He's Karthus. He played with TP too and TP'd into bot lane a few times. As well as ulted to get kills/help in fights. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
Karthus got zoned out quite a few times from botlane as well, against Ich's Eve. Now that's more of a match up difference, but the same applied to Toyz's Orianna against Sword, I don't think I saw him move out of mid at all, but that wasn't an issue since Ballz kept every lane in check, despite strong ganks from Sword. Problem with CLG.eu, is that Froggen stays in mid, starves snoopeh. Then snoopeh can't compensate in other lanes since he's underlvled and underfarmed | ||
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Navi
5286 Posts
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overt
United States9006 Posts
People throw around the word passive when referring to nearly every mid player. When in reality most mids are going to play "passive" because there's not a lot else you can do in mid. Mid lane is easily the hardest lane to gank due to the small size of the lane, the fact that bot/top lane wards help them understand where the enemy jungler is, and the fact that APs tend to be bursty making tower diving them really risky. So most mid laners just farm rather than go for kills. Even Reginald doesn't play aggressively anymore in mid most of the time. He just farms. If you want your mid laner to roam and gank more that's fine but it's a team wide strategy. It isn't something you can just expect every mid laner to do on every champion they play. I'm just trying to curb some of the, "Froggen too passive," shit before it spreads. jiji's been referred to as being "too passive" for months longer than he should have. Most mids are really fucking passive these days. Most of the action takes place in top/bot lane because it's a lot easier for the jungler to gank those lanes. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
Ballz was a complete boss in both sword and m5 series. He was in every single lane like 5 seconds before the enemy jungler ganked. It's almost as if he read their minds. It's actually scary as fuck. Ich is passive, but I feel he converts his lane passiveness to map presence aggressiveness though. He plays passive in lane to exert pressure in map presence. If you're aggressive in midlane, you're going to go back to base more often, sacrificing overall map presence. So if you play passive in midlane, you should be converting your energy into something else. Strong synergy from Ich and Diamond, allows for ridic map control in midgame. Froggen feels sluggish when it comes to helping out Snoopeh, or reacting to things happening in other lanes. | ||
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Navi
5286 Posts
On October 12 2012 07:09 overt wrote: Yeah, but then it's a team decision that back fired. From what I saw they weren't giving Snoopeh as much jungle farm and were trying to let him make up the gold in gp5s and through ganking. It didn't work out in every game. That's something for the team to re-evaluate. People throw around the word passive when referring to nearly every mid player. When in reality most mids are going to play "passive" because there's not a lot else you can do in mid. Mid lane is easily the hardest lane to gank due to the small size of the lane, the fact that bot/top lane wards help them understand where the enemy jungler is, and the fact that APs tend to be bursty making tower diving them really risky. So most mid laners just farm rather than go for kills. Even Reginald doesn't play aggressively anymore in mid most of the time. He just farms. If you want your mid laner to roam and gank more that's fine but it's a team wide strategy. It isn't something you can just expect every mid laner to do on every champion they play. I'm just trying to curb some of the, "Froggen too passive," shit before it spreads. jiji's been referred to as being "too passive" for months longer than he should have. Most mids are really fucking passive these days. Most of the action takes place in top/bot lane because it's a lot easier for the jungler to gank those lanes. Agree that the tendency of midlane will tilt towards passivity, but when misaya looked his best he was a much more proactive playmaker and exerted more map pressure. Certain teams work certain ways, but we'll see how the coming times and playstyles will change in the scene after this tourney | ||
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scarper65
1560 Posts
On October 12 2012 06:44 scarper65 wrote: Is there a reason we didn't see Froggen pick up Ahri at all? He played her really well in ogn Nevermind, he answered in his AMA | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On October 12 2012 07:09 wei2coolman wrote: Snoopeh's play reminds me of TOO's difficulty adapting to jungle change. Ballz was a complete boss in both sword and m5 series. He was in every single lane like 5 seconds before the enemy jungler ganked. It's almost as if he read their minds. It's actually scary as fuck. Ich is passive, but I feel he converts his lane passiveness to map presence aggressiveness though. He plays passive in lane to exert pressure in map presence. If you're aggressive in midlane, you're going to go back to base more often, sacrificing overall map presence. So if you play passive in midlane, you should be converting your energy into something else. Strong synergy from Ich and Diamond, allows for ridic map control in midgame. Froggen feels sluggish when it comes to helping out Snoopeh, or reacting to things happening in other lanes. That's an M5 wide strategy though. They exert map presence a lot earlier than other teams. You have no way of knowing if jiji or Froggen aren't capable of doing the same thing if it's how their respective teams wanted to play. Toyz is an example you guys used as a passive mid player. Yet TPA plays similarly to M5. They try to win lanes and exert early map pressure. Toyz helps with this strategy and he has played fine in this tournament thus far. Blaming mid laners for the playstyle of their team is just really silly imo. It's like when people used to call OddOne shitty because he got outfarmed by saint every game months ago. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
Froggen doesn't do it, because he's too busy farming. I don't think it's as simple as team choice imo. It's pretty hard to get rid of your natural playstyle. Even if you're adapting to team strategy, that doesn't mean you somehow lose your natural play style. Froggen could essentially add map presence into his playstyle, and he'd be a much stronger player. Even when he was playing morg, he kept playing passive, when Morg is one of the best roamers in the game. It's ingrained in his playstyle. TOO was shit, when he got out farmed >.<, then he learned to farm AND ganked, then got back up to top-NA-jungle-tier. | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
CLGeu relies on top, mid, and bottom getting farmed so that they can just go to late game and rely on team fighting strength. This creates a situation where it doesn't make sense for Froggen to make plays in mid game but rather for him to just farm up and not feed the opposing mid/jungler. CLGeu almost never plays for the mid game and nearly always tries to take it to late game. Maybe these teams adapted these styles because they don't believe that their mids are strong enough to play aggressive in mid game. Maybe the entire team just isn't into playing early aggression. Either way it's a team wide strategy. It should be pointed out, again, that nearly every team has mid lane players who play passive. Typically they let the jungler gank a lane and just let the mid sit and get really fat. If you just suddenly leave lane in mid everyone's going to know. They're probably going to know exactly where you're going. This isn't random solo queue where people don't pay attention and no one has VOIP. In competitive play it makes sense to sit mid, farm, and let your jungle create map pressure. It's why every single team does it these days. Sure, it could change. Now that Eve is OP, Katarina is pretty strong, and whenever people move back to Kassadin mid players will start roaming more. But considering that the most common mids I've seen at this tournament are late game/team fight mids like Orianna, Karthus, and Anivia no one should be surprised that teams didn't have mid laners roaming. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 12 2012 07:35 overt wrote: You've clearly never seen jiji play TF. Or teleport Ryze. The only team comp CLGna has ever played that exerts early pressure was their poke comp and it relied on every lane playing safe and then grouping up early because their sieging was super strong. The only other comp was their 3 TP/promote comp. Which doesn't need jiji to play aggressive either. Watch him play solo queue sometimes, jiji is perfectly capable of playing aggressive in mid game when he needs to. CLGna rarely comes up with strategies that require him to though. Jiji's TF is actually WAY less proactive than Misaya's. The difference is extremely pronounced. Personally I think Jiji never got used to TF's ult no longer being fully global, so compared to Misaya it always feels like he's a step behind where he should be. On October 12 2012 07:35 overt wrote: CLGeu relies on top, mid, and bottom getting farmed so that they can just go to late game and rely on team fighting strength. This creates a situation where it doesn't make sense for Froggen to make plays in mid game but rather for him to just farm up and not feed the opposing mid/jungler. CLGeu almost never plays for the mid game and nearly always tries to take it to late game. Except Froggen typically goes into lategame overfarmed relative to Wickd and Yellowpete, often by 100-200 CS. If CLG really wants an even development among all their carries, then Froggen should be making plays to divert his superfluous advantage into comparable advantage for the other two carries. Or at the very least, allowing some space for Pete to catch up. "All 3 carries farmed" is a sensible way to develop toward lategame teamfights. "AP 200 CS higher than AD carry" is not "all 3 carries farmed" though--and that's not an atypical situation for CLG.Eu at all. Look at how TPA manages their farm between their carries. While there are periods of time where certain players pull ahead, but lategame, the farm distribution between the three carries tends to be much more even. | ||
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Dgiese
United States2687 Posts
Good games from the semi's! Some really beast play, and some slightly lackluster play, but on the whole, really top notch. | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
On October 12 2012 06:54 overt wrote: Froggen, jiji, Misaya, Alex Ich, Rapidstar, Toyz, scarra, and pretty much every AP mid at this tournament isn't going for kills in mid lane. They're going for farm and safe harass. It's why ocelote tried switching to top months ago, he saw mid as just a farm lane with few kills (which, when compared to how top and bot work these days is true mid is mostly a farm lane). . this is why we root for zzitai hue | ||
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Haasts
New Zealand4445 Posts
On October 12 2012 09:16 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: this is why we root for zzitai hue Still sad he didn't bust out the Morde this tourney  Really impressed with how CLG.EU have carried themselves with dignity both before and after their loss - great sportsmanship, etc, and I'm looking forward to seeing them in S3. Also, some TPA-related copypasta from Reddit: Translated from TPA Toyz Facebook page: This coming from the guy who went 7/0/6, 6/0/5, 5/0/9, 2/0/9 in the games that TPA won. Lots of respect. Before the Najin Game: "As you guys probably know, tomorrow TPA's going to be up against Najin. And you guys probably know of the player Maknoon. I'd like to share a story here. About a year ago, a little nobody who'd just hit 2000 elo in Season 1 thought he was hot stuff. This little nobody learned of Maknoon through a friend, and the friend asked that nobody if he would be interested in playing against [Maknoon]. Not knowing what he was getting into, that nobody agreed. After 3 matches, that nobody came to learn the meaning of the Chinese proverb: "There are mountains beyond the mountains, heavens beyond the heavens", i.e. "There's always someone better than you". He got stomped. Throughout Season 2, for the whole year, that nobody told himself that he'd work and get better than [Maknoon]. Tomorrow that nobody's going to be facing off against Maknoon on the same stage. That little nobody was me..." After the Najin Game: "I'm at a loss for words right now. Yes, it's only the semifinals, but for me, the nobody, I've proven something. 2:0 Najin. Maknoon came over, gave me a hug and said quietly, "I'm proud of you." That just sent me over the top. I consider Maknoon one of my mentors, and regardless of who won, he's still one of the players I respect the most..." After the M5 Game: "What's most heartening is that even when everyone thought you were just a nobody, we were able to make all this happen through our own strength. Undoubtedly, facing stronger opponents has only made ourselves stronger. Versus M5, TPA's power was unleashed and we 2:1'd one of the world's top teams. And now the world knows who we are. I love you guys." | ||
Chexx
Korea (South)11232 Posts
another nice gem from yesterday around 57min30 secs | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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1ntrigue
Australia948 Posts
CLG.eu needs to go back to basics and focus on having an overall strategy that can work in the current tournament scene. Their dependence on Froggen and Froggen's current farming mentality is hurting them just as much as yellowpete's underwhelming performances and Wickd's small champ pool. They need to broaden their game understanding and be flexible enough to respond to the various ways that other teams use to counter them. | ||
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BlackMagister
United States5834 Posts
I don't like these posts... I didn't care why Froggen didn't pick Ahri but now I want to know. If you have the answer just post it now I have to go find it. people have been dropping ahri because she is too easy to shut down with cc in teamfight i believ or they just prefer other champions more, i dont know. no real reason to drop her | ||
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