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Keep the rage to a minimum. This includes wait times between games, music, and balance.
Fair warning to all. |
On October 11 2012 03:27 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 23:07 Sermokala wrote:
Only 1 bo3 gets effected by technical difficulties and the whole event turns into a train wreck? then what would you call all the sc2 events that have had lag and disconnect problems let alone the ones that have any major technical problems. The thing is, Riot marketed this tournament in such a way that the only tournament people will ever compare this to is TI2. The prize pool, the attitude of the promo video, all of it screams "we want to one-up Valve". And unfortunately, even if there were no problems on day 3, the production would still be 100% worse than TI2 in every regard (except for having translators). It's unfortunate, but that's the level of hype Riot built going into this, and they haven't been able to live up to it.
You can't compete with those bitchin' rings the TI2 winners got.
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On October 11 2012 03:41 TheYango wrote:
Personally, the thing to to me is that it just feels like Riot didn't try as hard as Valve when it came to making this the best tournament in the world. If Riot put in all the effort Valve did, and some unfortunate events made them fall short, then I could forgive them. But it's very clear that Riot did not invest as much effort into running the World Championships as Valve did. Let's look at the facts here:
- Two weeks before TI2, Valve effectively went to development standstill to prepare for TI2. The last patch before TI2 was 2 weeks before the event, and development effectively stalled through TI2, as there was no patch for a similar length of time after the event was over. What's more, this patch was a content-less bugfix patch, meaning that it's likely a lot of the designers/artists that had no content to produce were already shifting into TI2 work before the patch. For the period of two weeks leading up to TI2, THE ENTIRE STUDIO was devoted to running the event.
- Kha'zix patch was released 1 week before World Championships. What's more, this was a full-blown content patch, using the work of the studio as normal to develop. There was effectively no transition into working on on Worlds. What's more, Ezreal made a Twitter post on developing a new AD carry the Monday after the event--indicating a business-as-usual Monday for most of the company after this weekend. You have the biggest fiasco in E-sports history on your hands--HOW ARE YOU NOT DEVOTING THE ENTIRE STUDIO TO FIX THIS?
Valve--ALL of Valve--put their hearts and souls into making TI2 work. Riot feels like the E-sports department did the work itself (with some contracted-out manpower), and for the most part the rest of the company didn't really give a damn and just continued business as usual.
The constant comparaison between valve and riot is getting boring. Just watch dota2 if they are so better.
Every tournament is different, riot made mystakes, there is no point in making the comparaison with valve every second, there are thousand of other tournament that have a better production value than S2.
About TSM vs Frost, for me the cheat is obvious, but it didn't change a thing and you cannot blame frost entirely for this since Riot and the venue are at fault. So all in all, frost won and there is no reason to rematch.
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On October 11 2012 03:41 TheYango wrote:
Valve--ALL of Valve--put their hearts and souls into making TI2 work. Riot feels like the E-sports department did the work itself (with some contracted-out manpower), and for the most part the rest of the company didn't really give a damn and just continued business as usual.
Riot is how a company should be ran though, what makes you think the random artists, character design, people on balance team and such could actually help with setting up the tournament. There is zero reason that development has to stop in other areas of the company because there is a major event going on involving something out of the employee's specialties.
That Riot was woefully underprepared for the world finals is beyond doubt, that the whole studio should not do their regular work 'to prepare for Worlds' is just an ignorant claim. Reallocation of resources doesn't result in any actual work done instantly, especially human resources. Being able to point and say that you've put all your resources to do something inefficiently certainly gets you absolved of the blame of not putting enough personnel at it. Whether it actually has a significant enough impact on how the said thing worked out is an entirely different matter.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 11 2012 04:06 Ecael wrote:
Riot is how a company should be ran though, what makes you think the random artists, character design, people on balance team and such could actually help with setting up the tournament. There is zero reason that development has to stop in other areas of the company because there is a major event going on involving something out of the employee's specialties.
A Valve/Riot employee doing something for World's has a more vested interest in doing that job well than a volunteer/contractor for the same job. It also cuts down on the operational costs for the event.
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On October 11 2012 04:11 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 04:06 Ecael wrote:
Riot is how a company should be ran though, what makes you think the random artists, character design, people on balance team and such could actually help with setting up the tournament. There is zero reason that development has to stop in other areas of the company because there is a major event going on involving something out of the employee's specialties. A Valve/Riot employee doing something for World's has a more vested interest in doing that job well than a volunteer/contractor for the same job. It also cuts down on the operational costs for the event.
Except the said employee is also less skillful at it and could be generating his worth elsewhere. It cuts down the operational costs at the expense of losing his worth elsewhere, oh geez opportunity cost. What Valve did is good publicity at best, it is nothing close to how a company should be ran, nor can you assume that it is the only factor that made TI2 a successful event and Worlds a farce.
That Riot didn't put enough work into the event is beyond dispute, but that doesn't mean that inefficient use of manpower would've done anything to help the matter. Oh, it'll look better than how they are looking now for sure, but you don't plan on doing less efficient things because this major event that your company has been working on for a while now could fuck up.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 11 2012 04:18 Ecael wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 04:11 TheYango wrote:On October 11 2012 04:06 Ecael wrote:
Riot is how a company should be ran though, what makes you think the random artists, character design, people on balance team and such could actually help with setting up the tournament. There is zero reason that development has to stop in other areas of the company because there is a major event going on involving something out of the employee's specialties. A Valve/Riot employee doing something for World's has a more vested interest in doing that job well than a volunteer/contractor for the same job. It also cuts down on the operational costs for the event. Except the said employee is also less skillful at it and could be generating his worth elsewhere. It cuts down the operational costs at the expense of losing his worth elsewhere, oh geez opportunity cost. What Valve did is good publicity at best, it is nothing close to how a company should be ran, nor can you assume that it is the only factor that made TI2 a successful event and Worlds a farce. That Riot didn't put enough work into the event is beyond dispute, but that doesn't mean that inefficient use of manpower would've done anything to help the matter.
Except the Valve/Riot model doesn't really generate profit in a way directly related to man-hours spent working on the product.
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On October 11 2012 04:11 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 04:06 Ecael wrote:
Riot is how a company should be ran though, what makes you think the random artists, character design, people on balance team and such could actually help with setting up the tournament. There is zero reason that development has to stop in other areas of the company because there is a major event going on involving something out of the employee's specialties. A Valve/Riot employee doing something for World's has a more vested interest in doing that job well than a volunteer/contractor for the same job. It also cuts down on the operational costs for the event.
Thats really an outsiders point of view without understanding how most studios actually work. Why should the champion designer, as i said in my other post, stop his work to set up a few chairs? Who gives two shits if its better for "operational costs", comparing the two events goes to the managers whom made the decision making. Head of E-sports Valve vs Head of E-sports and events for riot there is clearly one winner, with a defined vision and precise execution.
So complain about who riot has in charge, the managers for the event and the people in charge, that's completely fine, i have my own issues and negative feedback for riot on that event too. But blaming the guy who has an unrelated job with no skills or experience in event planning/execution fault for its failure?
The fuck man?
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I think pointing fingers at large-scale company management is really outside of our field of expertise.
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On October 11 2012 04:19 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 04:18 Ecael wrote:On October 11 2012 04:11 TheYango wrote:On October 11 2012 04:06 Ecael wrote:
Riot is how a company should be ran though, what makes you think the random artists, character design, people on balance team and such could actually help with setting up the tournament. There is zero reason that development has to stop in other areas of the company because there is a major event going on involving something out of the employee's specialties. A Valve/Riot employee doing something for World's has a more vested interest in doing that job well than a volunteer/contractor for the same job. It also cuts down on the operational costs for the event. Except the said employee is also less skillful at it and could be generating his worth elsewhere. It cuts down the operational costs at the expense of losing his worth elsewhere, oh geez opportunity cost. What Valve did is good publicity at best, it is nothing close to how a company should be ran, nor can you assume that it is the only factor that made TI2 a successful event and Worlds a farce. That Riot didn't put enough work into the event is beyond dispute, but that doesn't mean that inefficient use of manpower would've done anything to help the matter. Except the Valve/Riot model doesn't really generate profit in a way directly related to man-hours spent working on the product.
Sure it does, they can be churning out champions and skins. The details don't even matter, since none of it mean that the animation specialist you have should be making coffee and setting up chairs at an event. You can't even pay the guy less than what he normally makes just because you have him on menial tasks.
Again, nothing about stopping the rest of the company from doing their regular work actually means that the event would turn out better than they did. If they could afford to do that, then they could afford to simply throw more money at setting up the event in the first place. You are looking at an example of a successful and event and somehow getting the notion that everything should be done the same way as that event in order to get success. I trust that I don't need to explain to you how insane that notion is.
On October 11 2012 04:21 kainzero wrote:
I think pointing fingers at large-scale company management is really outside of our field of expertise.
I don't think it takes a CEO to know that making a programmer go make coffee and set up chairs at a venue is a pretty big waste of the salary you are paying that programmer.
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On October 11 2012 04:21 kainzero wrote:
I think pointing fingers at large-scale company management is really outside of our field of expertise.
The point is valve is better than riot, TI2 better than s2 and dota 2 better than LOL.
But of course all that is only Yango's point of view.
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On October 11 2012 04:18 Ecael wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 04:11 TheYango wrote:On October 11 2012 04:06 Ecael wrote:
Riot is how a company should be ran though, what makes you think the random artists, character design, people on balance team and such could actually help with setting up the tournament. There is zero reason that development has to stop in other areas of the company because there is a major event going on involving something out of the employee's specialties. A Valve/Riot employee doing something for World's has a more vested interest in doing that job well than a volunteer/contractor for the same job. It also cuts down on the operational costs for the event. Except the said employee is also less skillful at it and could be generating his worth elsewhere. It cuts down the operational costs at the expense of losing his worth elsewhere, oh geez opportunity cost. What Valve did is good publicity at best, it is nothing close to how a company should be ran, nor can you assume that it is the only factor that made TI2 a successful event and Worlds a farce. That Riot didn't put enough work into the event is beyond dispute, but that doesn't mean that inefficient use of manpower would've done anything to help the matter. Oh, it'll look better than how they are looking now for sure, but you don't plan on doing less efficient things because this major event that your company has been working on for a while now could fuck up.
It's not a publicity stunt what the fuck? No where did valve advertise they were pulling workers out of other areas, and you know what, it turned out amazing cause the valve workers really cared about the tournament and ran the best tournament to date in any game ever.
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On October 11 2012 04:19 Snackysnacks wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 04:11 TheYango wrote:On October 11 2012 04:06 Ecael wrote:
Riot is how a company should be ran though, what makes you think the random artists, character design, people on balance team and such could actually help with setting up the tournament. There is zero reason that development has to stop in other areas of the company because there is a major event going on involving something out of the employee's specialties. A Valve/Riot employee doing something for World's has a more vested interest in doing that job well than a volunteer/contractor for the same job. It also cuts down on the operational costs for the event. Thats really an outsiders point of view without understanding how most studios actually work. Why should the champion designer, as i said in my other post, stop his work to set up a few chairs? Who gives two shits if its better for "operational costs", comparing the two events goes to the managers whom made the decision making. Head of E-sports Valve vs Head of E-sports and events for riot there is clearly one winner, with a defined vision and precise execution. So complain about who riot has in charge, the managers for the event and the people in charge, that's completely fine, i have my own issues and negative feedback for riot on that event too. But blaming the guy who has an unrelated job with no skills or experience in event planning/execution fault for its failure? The fuck man?
The lack of manpower isn't the problem, but a reflection of the overall rather striking issues in terms of care and devotion on Riot's part. Things like this basically made it felt like riot just wanted an event on the cheap and easy, hope it didn't fall apart, and try to say the phrase "BIGGEST PRIZEPOOL IN ESPORTS" as many times as possible to cover up any potential failings.
If they did due diligence and showed the event plans to either MLG or OGN staff and had cohesive, functional redundancies and backups, it is hard to imagine that any of the issues of the past week would have happened. At worst one game would have needed to be resumed from a save state, and maybe the streams would go down once.
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On October 11 2012 04:27 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 04:18 Ecael wrote:On October 11 2012 04:11 TheYango wrote:On October 11 2012 04:06 Ecael wrote:
Riot is how a company should be ran though, what makes you think the random artists, character design, people on balance team and such could actually help with setting up the tournament. There is zero reason that development has to stop in other areas of the company because there is a major event going on involving something out of the employee's specialties. A Valve/Riot employee doing something for World's has a more vested interest in doing that job well than a volunteer/contractor for the same job. It also cuts down on the operational costs for the event. Except the said employee is also less skillful at it and could be generating his worth elsewhere. It cuts down the operational costs at the expense of losing his worth elsewhere, oh geez opportunity cost. What Valve did is good publicity at best, it is nothing close to how a company should be ran, nor can you assume that it is the only factor that made TI2 a successful event and Worlds a farce. That Riot didn't put enough work into the event is beyond dispute, but that doesn't mean that inefficient use of manpower would've done anything to help the matter. Oh, it'll look better than how they are looking now for sure, but you don't plan on doing less efficient things because this major event that your company has been working on for a while now could fuck up. It's not a publicity stunt what the fuck? No where did valve advertise they were pulling workers out of other areas, and you know what, it turned out amazing cause the valve workers really cared about the tournament and ran the best tournament to date in any game ever.
It was a good tournament don't get me wrong, but it wasn't even fucking close to the best tournament ever
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On October 11 2012 04:31 NotSorry wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 04:27 Itsmedudeman wrote:On October 11 2012 04:18 Ecael wrote:On October 11 2012 04:11 TheYango wrote:On October 11 2012 04:06 Ecael wrote:
Riot is how a company should be ran though, what makes you think the random artists, character design, people on balance team and such could actually help with setting up the tournament. There is zero reason that development has to stop in other areas of the company because there is a major event going on involving something out of the employee's specialties. A Valve/Riot employee doing something for World's has a more vested interest in doing that job well than a volunteer/contractor for the same job. It also cuts down on the operational costs for the event. Except the said employee is also less skillful at it and could be generating his worth elsewhere. It cuts down the operational costs at the expense of losing his worth elsewhere, oh geez opportunity cost. What Valve did is good publicity at best, it is nothing close to how a company should be ran, nor can you assume that it is the only factor that made TI2 a successful event and Worlds a farce. That Riot didn't put enough work into the event is beyond dispute, but that doesn't mean that inefficient use of manpower would've done anything to help the matter. Oh, it'll look better than how they are looking now for sure, but you don't plan on doing less efficient things because this major event that your company has been working on for a while now could fuck up. It's not a publicity stunt what the fuck? No where did valve advertise they were pulling workers out of other areas, and you know what, it turned out amazing cause the valve workers really cared about the tournament and ran the best tournament to date in any game ever. It was a good tournament don't get me wrong, but it wasn't even fucking close to the best tournament ever
please elaborate on an esports event in the west that's even come close. I can see some of the biggest OSLs and PL finals being seen as better in certain aspects, but TI2 is fairly comparable even to those
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On October 11 2012 04:27 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 04:18 Ecael wrote:On October 11 2012 04:11 TheYango wrote:On October 11 2012 04:06 Ecael wrote:
Riot is how a company should be ran though, what makes you think the random artists, character design, people on balance team and such could actually help with setting up the tournament. There is zero reason that development has to stop in other areas of the company because there is a major event going on involving something out of the employee's specialties. A Valve/Riot employee doing something for World's has a more vested interest in doing that job well than a volunteer/contractor for the same job. It also cuts down on the operational costs for the event. Except the said employee is also less skillful at it and could be generating his worth elsewhere. It cuts down the operational costs at the expense of losing his worth elsewhere, oh geez opportunity cost. What Valve did is good publicity at best, it is nothing close to how a company should be ran, nor can you assume that it is the only factor that made TI2 a successful event and Worlds a farce. That Riot didn't put enough work into the event is beyond dispute, but that doesn't mean that inefficient use of manpower would've done anything to help the matter. Oh, it'll look better than how they are looking now for sure, but you don't plan on doing less efficient things because this major event that your company has been working on for a while now could fuck up. It's not a publicity stunt what the fuck? No where did valve advertise they were pulling workers out of other areas, and you know what, it turned out amazing cause the valve workers really cared about the tournament and ran the best tournament to date in any game ever.
All that is subjectiv, I have had way more fun watching MLG at the beginning of SC2 than watching TI2. The casters were just not good enough for me (just like in most LOL tournament by the way, where the english casters are just bad).
Also I'm just amazed at people who argue that Riot is throwing money or not advertising. Either you're dumb, or so biased the world is pink everytime you hear valve. The game is in beta since god knows when exactly because valve want to build up a solid base before releasing it, and they are not making that game out of generosity, the goal is to gain money.
Riot is a young company, way younger than Valve, and who started LOL with way less money than valve had for dota2. They try their best to support the LOL community, and even if the attempt this time is a fail in some way, not only the tournament is not finished, but Riot will most likely correct their mistakes.
Now the best part of all this is that nobody is forcing anyone to watch Riot's tournaments or play Riot's game, if you consider Riot's failure to be too much then just play something else.
About devotion, well that's really a bad argument overall.
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On October 11 2012 04:27 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 04:18 Ecael wrote:On October 11 2012 04:11 TheYango wrote:On October 11 2012 04:06 Ecael wrote:
Riot is how a company should be ran though, what makes you think the random artists, character design, people on balance team and such could actually help with setting up the tournament. There is zero reason that development has to stop in other areas of the company because there is a major event going on involving something out of the employee's specialties. A Valve/Riot employee doing something for World's has a more vested interest in doing that job well than a volunteer/contractor for the same job. It also cuts down on the operational costs for the event. Except the said employee is also less skillful at it and could be generating his worth elsewhere. It cuts down the operational costs at the expense of losing his worth elsewhere, oh geez opportunity cost. What Valve did is good publicity at best, it is nothing close to how a company should be ran, nor can you assume that it is the only factor that made TI2 a successful event and Worlds a farce. That Riot didn't put enough work into the event is beyond dispute, but that doesn't mean that inefficient use of manpower would've done anything to help the matter. Oh, it'll look better than how they are looking now for sure, but you don't plan on doing less efficient things because this major event that your company has been working on for a while now could fuck up. It's not a publicity stunt what the fuck? No where did valve advertise they were pulling workers out of other areas, and you know what, it turned out amazing cause the valve workers really cared about the tournament and ran the best tournament to date in any game ever.
Ummm are we seriously going to go on with this talk about how the passion of the employees made something work out? I trust that Riot is a big enough company that can kind of work without resorting to such an intangible factor to get their event to go well.
As for Valve's move being a publicity stunt or not, all I am saying is that it certainly isn't going to be the one factor that made TI2 a success. Nor would it be missing element that made Worlds a joke. Perhaps Valve actually believes that by doing so they are ensuring the quality of TI2 to be at a high standard. I think it doesn't, but who knows? All that I can say for sure is that it certainly looks good to the public.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 11 2012 04:34 WhiteDog wrote:
Now the best part of all this is that nobody is forcing anyone to watch Riot's tournaments or play Riot's game, if you consider Riot's failure to be too much then just play something else.
I don't know how you're getting that I dislike the game simply from the fact that I disapprove of how the tournament was run.
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On October 11 2012 04:29 Kupon3ss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 04:19 Snackysnacks wrote:On October 11 2012 04:11 TheYango wrote:On October 11 2012 04:06 Ecael wrote:
Riot is how a company should be ran though, what makes you think the random artists, character design, people on balance team and such could actually help with setting up the tournament. There is zero reason that development has to stop in other areas of the company because there is a major event going on involving something out of the employee's specialties. A Valve/Riot employee doing something for World's has a more vested interest in doing that job well than a volunteer/contractor for the same job. It also cuts down on the operational costs for the event. Thats really an outsiders point of view without understanding how most studios actually work. Why should the champion designer, as i said in my other post, stop his work to set up a few chairs? Who gives two shits if its better for "operational costs", comparing the two events goes to the managers whom made the decision making. Head of E-sports Valve vs Head of E-sports and events for riot there is clearly one winner, with a defined vision and precise execution. So complain about who riot has in charge, the managers for the event and the people in charge, that's completely fine, i have my own issues and negative feedback for riot on that event too. But blaming the guy who has an unrelated job with no skills or experience in event planning/execution fault for its failure? The fuck man? The lack of manpower isn't the problem, but a reflection of the overall rather striking issues in terms of care and devotion on Riot's part. Things like this basically made it felt like riot just wanted an event on the cheap and easy, hope it didn't fall apart, and try to say the phrase "BIGGEST PRIZEPOOL IN ESPORTS" as many times as possible to cover up any potential failings. If they did due diligence and showed the event plans to either MLG or OGN staff and had cohesive, functional redundancies and backups, it is hard to imagine that any of the issues of the past week would have happened. At worst one game would have needed to be resumed from a save state, and maybe the streams would go down once.
The point i was getting across was that when mango said its a managers bad decision to not have unrelated employees not help for the event, i stated it wouldn't have matter because the other issues at hand were the demise of the event.
Yes, i agree there is problems, elsewhere, but that is unrelated to the post he made.
So if we take your post, MLG/OGN makes a better production. Yes congratulations a staff that makes a production as their jobs is doing it correctly. Riots production is lacking is FACT. But saying that CHAMPION DESIGNER not involved with PRODUCTION is REASON to why the event failed, because PASSION, is completely stupid.
I am not defending riot on anything, if anyone thinks that way. Just if you are gonna have a gripe have it with the right reasons and target the correct individuals involved.
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On October 11 2012 04:36 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 04:34 WhiteDog wrote:
Now the best part of all this is that nobody is forcing anyone to watch Riot's tournaments or play Riot's game, if you consider Riot's failure to be too much then just play something else. I don't know how you're getting that I dislike the game simply from the fact that I disapprove of how the tournament was run.
Because you basically criticise everything, since day 1, and always ends up making the comparaison with valve, I see you have a different agenda than just helping riot giving your own point of view.
Don't misunderstand me, criticising the tournament is a good thing and some of your posts are interesting, but trying to value TI2 and valve's in regard to Riot's day 3 failure is just getting on my nerve. At some point, dota 2 players needs to stop trying to shove dota2 and valve in LOL players' throats.
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On October 11 2012 04:41 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 04:36 TheYango wrote:On October 11 2012 04:34 WhiteDog wrote:
Now the best part of all this is that nobody is forcing anyone to watch Riot's tournaments or play Riot's game, if you consider Riot's failure to be too much then just play something else. I don't know how you're getting that I dislike the game simply from the fact that I disapprove of how the tournament was run. Because you basically criticise everything, since day 1, and always ends up making the comparaison with valve, I see you have a different agenda than just helping riot giving your own point of view. Don't misunderstand me, criticising the tournament is a good thing and some of your posts are interesting, but trying to value TI2 and valve's in regard to Riot's day 3 failure is just getting on my nerve. At some point, dota 2 players needs to stop trying to shove down dota2 and valve in LOL players' throats.
You realise Yango is one of the biggest and most helpfull people on this subforum right...
He has no hidden agenda go watch Riot die in a fire.
And ofc people compare this to valve and TI2... Its 2 company's with the same genre of game having a dick waving contest.
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EPT
