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[MLG] Summer Championships 2012 - Page 97

Forum Index > LoL Tournaments
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Senx
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Sweden5901 Posts
August 27 2012 02:31 GMT
#1921
MLG Lee:
To be clear here folks, the Collusion had nothing to do with the ARAM. CRS/DIG conspired to split prize money. http://mlg.to/SFulSk


so yeah, fuck the aram, splitting prize money -- especially prior to the match is god awful and should be punished hard.
"trash micro but win - its marine" MC commentary during HSC 4
BlueBird.
Profile Joined August 2008
United States3890 Posts
August 27 2012 02:31 GMT
#1922
If your not allowed to split, your not allowed to split, I'm not really sure what went down but sounds like they broke the rules and admitted to it.

However, I don't really agree with the rules. I understand it might be a little less entertaining but the best 2 na teams weren't there for a reason, this tournament isn't important and splitting is sometimes in your best interest, give the fans a show and don't tell them you split and you wont have a problem.

I come from Mtg and local halo LANs where I've split in the finals countless times, either too go home, to help out a friend or cause I was unfavored in the matchup. In mtg starcitygames top 8s they often split between 8 or 4 people and then still play it out for the cameras.
Currently Playing: Android Netrunner, Gwent, Gloomhaven, Board Games
Arghmyliver
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States1081 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-27 02:33:47
August 27 2012 02:32 GMT
#1923
On August 27 2012 11:22 LeodaR wrote:
The rules on collusion aren't very difficult, despite people trying to cloud the facts.

You are not permitted to discuss with the other team any attempt to predetermine the results of a competition. This includes who wins, and it also includes the prize money.

There are people that think that the winning team can do whatever it wants with the prize money. This is technically true. If the Curse team later this week gave some money to DiG that is perfectly within their rights. But they cannot come to an agreement with their opponents before the game. It will absolutely affect the gameplay, whether obvious or subtle.

You are also not allowed to throw games in any professional sport that exists. Some teams try, and some get away with it, but if the governing bodies find proof, they will and do crush those teams/athletes.

Finally, consider for a second where that prize money comes from. People are getting angry at MLG and Riot for being greedy. Remember the sponsors for this event? The commercials between games? The reason this event exists at all? I'm guessing those sponsors wouldn't be back if MLG/Riot didn't take this seriously.


It would hardly seem fair to punish those whose eyes are not as easily swayed by the metallic luster of coin.
Now witness their attempts to fly from tree to tree. Notice they do not so much fly as plummet.
Slow Motion
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States6960 Posts
August 27 2012 02:33 GMT
#1924
On August 27 2012 11:28 HazMat wrote:
The problem I have with this is that apparently people overheard them talking about this over lunch in a crowded setting? There is no way these teams can be that retarded. Throw a match and not even be secretive about it? What did they think the outcome would be. That's why I'm a bit skeptical that they actually match fixed but the evidence is stacking up against them.

Yeah that's what tends to make me think there was no match-fixing (but maybe prize-splitting). Also I find it hard to believe that Dignitas is so afraid of Legion that they'd rather lose and face Dynamic first round and be stuck on the same side of the bracket as TSM. The way I see it either there was no match-fixing or both teams went beyond stupid and was on crack or something when they thought that would be a good idea.
I_Love_Bacon
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5765 Posts
August 27 2012 02:33 GMT
#1925
On August 27 2012 11:14 Slaughter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2012 11:11 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
On August 27 2012 11:08 Plansix wrote:
On August 27 2012 10:56 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
On August 27 2012 10:46 Plansix wrote:
On August 27 2012 10:42 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
On August 27 2012 10:34 Dosey wrote:
On August 27 2012 10:31 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
On August 27 2012 10:29 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
I'm surprised that shits like this still happens after the Savior scandal. Are the players simply ignorant of it or do they honestly believed that they could get away with it?


It's a gaming culture thing. A loooot of smaller tournaments have splitting occur on a daily/weekly basis. I'm not just talking about the LoL scene. Every competitive scene I've been a part of had splitting that was really common. People just have to understand that they're not just athletes anymore; they're also entertainers. That means putting on a legitimate show for their fans and paying customers on/offline regardless of whether they really care about the match they're about to participate in.

It's not just gaming culture... It's anything with decent money. Ever hear of Men Nguyen and his "poker teams"? The Russian pros? Hell, I was involved in some mild collusion with my "team" as well and I'm sure plenty of other college kids are/were.


In this very thread I talked about other scandals. I'll specify: The eSport's scene hasn't figured it out yet, whereas other sports have gotten a better handle on it. People are used to being able to split but now aren't allowed to.


They should never be allowed to, even in smaller tournaments. Anything that calls into question if they played their hardest cheapens the tournament. It is a bad practice if smaller tournaments allow it, because opens the door for prize splitting on all levels. Maybe the top four teams should split the prize money and work hard to knock out all the other teams. More money for all, right?


The tournament isn't about proving the best at lower levels of play. It's generally more about having fun. You split because you and the other finalist both had fun and winning isn't a huge deal but you'd like to guarantee yourself a bigger payday compared to if you lose. You both are happy with the arrangement. It doesn't cost anybody anything because there usually aren't spectators outside of friends and people who have been eliminated.

What the people in emerging eSports in particular have to realize is that people have paid to see the finals they're fucking around in. Their sponsors have paid for them to put on a good show and win.


I guess if they want to run their tournaments that way, it is their choice. I would label them as amateur or casual tournaments, since they are there to have fun. I think some tournaments cater to more serious players and now allow splitting. Riot and MLG feel that way and feel tournaments are where you determine who is best. If people from that more casual scene are shocked by this, they might not want to take part in MLG.


No shit. I'm not saying there should be splitting at MLG or any major tournament. My statement hasn't changed. It's the idea that many people have from playing in these lesser tournaments. Spectators are few and not as important so splitting is common. On the big stage, it is clearly taboo and some people haven't gotten it through their skulls. Hopefuly this will be a wake up to the LoL community that this shit wont be tolerated... especially if Riot has more shit to say before all is said and done.



I Prize splitting should be to the discretion of the players if they want to do some kind of revenue sharing thing. That being said it would only be acceptable if they both still tried to win. There should only be a problem if one team was throwing.


If I felt for a second people were going to reasonably try their absolute hardest to win after agreeing to split I'd be fine with it. But living in the real world, I can't buy that for a second. So, no splits imo.
" i havent been playin sc2 but i woke up w/ a boner and i really had to pee... and my crisis management and micro was really something to behold. it inspired me to play some games today" -Liquid'Tyler
HPoirot
Profile Joined June 2011
United States1303 Posts
August 27 2012 02:34 GMT
#1926
Prize-splitting debate aside, MLG's reaction to the ARAM(and the fact that Curse players were obviously forced to give out apologies to THE FANS of all people) depresses me. The old MLG would have embraced the ARAM and had fun with it. I understand why they've adopted such a hyper professional vibe in the last few years, but the fact that a fun, crowd-pleasing game is being treated like an affront to the existence of MLG is disturbing. Small wonder that so much of the FGC hates the idea of eSports.

nojitosunrise
Profile Joined August 2011
United States6188 Posts
August 27 2012 02:35 GMT
#1927
On August 27 2012 11:29 Goragoth wrote:
I just want to point out that prize splitting in Poker is really quite different than in other sports. Due to the random nature of Poker (in the short term, in the long run the best players will win, blah, blah, blah) it makes sense to split the pot at the final table or whatever since there is a very real possibility you will lose even if you think you are the better player (one or two bad hands could cost you a lot of money). That's pretty different to most other sports/e-sports including LoL.


Splitting the pot in poker is done for equity reasons (because of the random nature of the game.)

HOWEVER, there are rules in place that ensure first place in poker matters. Such as leaving money aside as a bonus for first place. i.e. 120k purse, the players take 50k each and play it out for the last 20k. This ensure that competition is preserved.

This is why the poker analogy doesn't make sense in this situation.
CeriseCherries
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
6170 Posts
August 27 2012 02:36 GMT
#1928
i can definitely see the motivation as they both want the money but neither wants to reveal strats for the future so they dont want to lose money because they cant show everything

that being said if LoL wants to become a legitimate esport than it has to shape up... otherwise if its going to be a nice casual game to play then who gives a fuck split the pool if you want
Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20255 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-27 02:37:40
August 27 2012 02:36 GMT
#1929
On August 27 2012 11:34 HPoirot wrote:
Prize-splitting debate aside, MLG's reaction to the ARAM(and the fact that Curse players were obviously forced to give out apologies to THE FANS of all people) depresses me. The old MLG would have embraced the ARAM and had fun with it. I understand why they've adopted such a hyper professional vibe in the last few years, but the fact that a fun, crowd-pleasing game is being treated like an affront to the existence of MLG is disturbing. Small wonder that so much of the FGC hates the idea of eSports.



The reason for this is because they are trying their hardest for esport legitimazation in the greater popular culture. So they try to model their practices after professional sports and be more strict in guiding players/fans toward that model. Though that poses the question. DO we even want Esports to be like professional sports or its own thing distinct?
Never Knows Best.
deth2munkies
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4051 Posts
August 27 2012 02:37 GMT
#1930
I've seen everywhere that they conspired to split the pot, but not that they did not play the games to their full ability (i.e. pre-determine the outcome). They are 2 different things, one marginally against the rules and one fully against the rules.

Regardless, what's done is done.
Frolossus
Profile Joined February 2010
United States4779 Posts
August 27 2012 02:37 GMT
#1931
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=28677763#28677763



User was warned for this post
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17303 Posts
August 27 2012 02:37 GMT
#1932
If they wanted to do an ARAM it should've been done as an exhibition game separate from the bo5.
twitch.tv/cratonz
overt
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States9006 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-27 02:39:21
August 27 2012 02:37 GMT
#1933
I think you could make a compelling argument that first place at this tournament between Dig/Crs didn't matter. It'd change the seedings if Dig won but it's not like Legion or TD are going to be favored against Dig or CLG.

Making it super obvious that you were prize splitting was just stupid on their part but I don't have any moral objections to what they did. I also understand MLG's logic since it'd look bad if they just did nothing.

edit:
Although if they actually did plan on having Curse win for some reason it's a different story. But if all they did was conspire to split the prize money I don't see much of a problem. Especially since I don't think either team would do it at a tournament that actually mattered.
Femari
Profile Joined June 2011
United States2900 Posts
August 27 2012 02:39 GMT
#1934
On August 27 2012 11:34 HPoirot wrote:
Prize-splitting debate aside, MLG's reaction to the ARAM(and the fact that Curse players were obviously forced to give out apologies to THE FANS of all people) depresses me. The old MLG would have embraced the ARAM and had fun with it. I understand why they've adopted such a hyper professional vibe in the last few years, but the fact that a fun, crowd-pleasing game is being treated like an affront to the existence of MLG is disturbing. Small wonder that so much of the FGC hates the idea of eSports.



Last time I checked MLG banned for shit like this.
Mvp | BoxeR | MarineKing | MC | viOlet | Scarlett | Flash | Bisu | XellOs | Sea | Fantasy | By.Sun
HPoirot
Profile Joined June 2011
United States1303 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-27 02:46:05
August 27 2012 02:40 GMT
#1935
On August 27 2012 11:36 Slaughter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2012 11:34 HPoirot wrote:
Prize-splitting debate aside, MLG's reaction to the ARAM(and the fact that Curse players were obviously forced to give out apologies to THE FANS of all people) depresses me. The old MLG would have embraced the ARAM and had fun with it. I understand why they've adopted such a hyper professional vibe in the last few years, but the fact that a fun, crowd-pleasing game is being treated like an affront to the existence of MLG is disturbing. Small wonder that so much of the FGC hates the idea of eSports.



The reason for this is because they are trying their hardest for esport legitimazation in the greater popular culture. So they try to model their practices after professional sports and be more strict in guiding players/fans toward that model. Though that poses the question. DO we even want Esports to be like professional sports or its own thing distinct?


That's the FGC argument, which I tend to agree with. The vibe MLG enforces is stifling. IPL has its own set of flaws, but they at least have fun while still putting on a competitive tournament.

On August 27 2012 11:39 Femari wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2012 11:34 HPoirot wrote:
Prize-splitting debate aside, MLG's reaction to the ARAM(and the fact that Curse players were obviously forced to give out apologies to THE FANS of all people) depresses me. The old MLG would have embraced the ARAM and had fun with it. I understand why they've adopted such a hyper professional vibe in the last few years, but the fact that a fun, crowd-pleasing game is being treated like an affront to the existence of MLG is disturbing. Small wonder that so much of the FGC hates the idea of eSports.



Last time I checked MLG banned for shit like this.

They banned for prize splitting. I'm saying that if this(the ARAM) happened at an MLG event in 2009, we wouldn't have had the awkward refusal of the casters to acknowledge Game 1's existence and the forced apologies from Curse's players for playing a fun, silly game.

If two Halo teams had decided to play a game of Slayer using only grenades and melee attacks, Sundance(who used to cast) and Puckett(the premier Halo caster) would have laughed their asses off.
nojitosunrise
Profile Joined August 2011
United States6188 Posts
August 27 2012 02:40 GMT
#1936
On August 27 2012 11:37 overt wrote:
I think you could make a compelling argument that first place at this tournament between Dig/Crs didn't matter. It'd change the seedings if Dig won but it's not like Legion or TD are going to be favored against Dig or CLG.

Making it super obvious that you were prize splitting was just stupid on their part but I don't have any moral objections to what they did. I also understand MLG's logic since it'd look bad if they just did nothing.

edit:
Although if they actually did plan on having Curse win for some reason it's a different story. But if all they did was conspire to split the prize money I don't see much of a problem. Especially since I don't think either team would do it at a tournament that actually mattered.


It seems someone wanted to throw...

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=28677156#28677156
gtrsrs
Profile Joined June 2010
United States9109 Posts
August 27 2012 02:41 GMT
#1937
here's my take on the whole thing

curse/dig doing aram was shameful, honestly. on such a big stage, that's like a fuck you to MLG. so they should have expected retaliation

pot splitting is silly, but not "wrong," imo. it's something i would never do myself, i'm far too competitive, i'd rather lose than have a split victory. i do, however, realize that at higher stakes, you're more likely to want an assured prize. maybe i'd change my tune if i was competing for 10-20x more money than SG usually plays for. but if it is against MLG rules, then curse/dig was stupid to try it

MATCH FIXING, however, is a serious problem. fucking with brackets and fucking over other teams is just downright shameful. you can't call a game competitive if there's match fixing, especially at such a high level. if THIS part is true, i've lost a ton of respect for curse/dig. dignitas has been my favorite team for a time, i would really hate for this to be true. if this turns up true, i doubt i'll be watching any dig/curse streams or supporting them. but i've got my fingers crossed that it's not true, for now



---

as for what it means for other teams... TD, mme, lgn, orb, nick allen is handsome, SG (hue), KSG, JTU, unR, CLG.B, etc etc etc, all the teams that have potential but have never made it big, should be FOAMING AT THE MOUTH for this to be true. pending possible punishment, this could crack the NA scene wide open. considering how bad TSM.evo is playing, punishment could leave NA to basically be a 2-team scene with only TSM and CLG being competitors. I would think these teams would be praying to karma gods and jumping on a strict practice regimen, because if curse and dignitas go down, season 3 could be anyone's game (at least in NA... i think we kind of have a way to go to catch up to azubu, M5, and some of the other top-tier non-NA teams). s3 gonna be wide open and fun imo
i play ... hearthstone =\^.^/= Winterfox
Senx
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Sweden5901 Posts
August 27 2012 02:41 GMT
#1938
On August 27 2012 11:37 overt wrote:
I think you could make a compelling argument that first place at this tournament between Dig/Crs didn't matter. It'd change the seedings if Dig won but it's not like Legion or TD are going to be favored against Dig or CLG.

Making it super obvious that you were prize splitting was just stupid on their part but I don't have any moral objections to what they did. I also understand MLG's logic since it'd look bad if they just did nothing.

edit:
Although if they actually did plan on having Curse win for some reason it's a different story. But if all they did was conspire to split the prize money I don't see much of a problem. Especially since I don't think either team would do it at a tournament that actually mattered.


RedBeard from Riot:
Just to be crystal clear, MLG’s decision here has nothing to do with ARAM. Both Curse and Dignitas admitted to and apologized for colluding prior to the finals to throw the match.

Drakylon - they decided who would win prior to the match - it's not about their strategy during the game or what they are doing with the money afterwards, it's about respect for the game, the sport, the other teams, and the fans.


http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=28677156#28677156
"trash micro but win - its marine" MC commentary during HSC 4
Jaksiel
Profile Joined November 2008
United States4130 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-27 02:46:37
August 27 2012 02:43 GMT
#1939
On August 27 2012 11:27 Phrost wrote:
I don't know why people have such a huge hate for prize splitting. I play Magic regularly and people at my store frequently split the prize for top 8 because the risk/reward usually isn't worth it (and at that point a lot of people are sick of playing). I can't fault them for splitting the prize as long as they tried their hardest and played 2-3 solid games.


Ah, I got beat to this. Prize-splitting happens frequently at the top tier of competitive MtG. The difference between first and second at a Pro Tour is enormous (currently $40,000 and $20,000) and it often gets split without incident. Of course, there is also the Pro Point system which gives incentive to finish higher, so it's not exactly the same scenario as we had here (where the only extra incentive was pride).

EDIT: I'm now reading there may have been talk of actual throwing. I have no problem with prize splitting, but throwing is definitely a big deal.
Zero fighting.
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20255 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-27 02:46:44
August 27 2012 02:45 GMT
#1940
On August 27 2012 11:41 gtrsrs wrote:
here's my take on the whole thing

curse/dig doing aram was shameful, honestly. on such a big stage, that's like a fuck you to MLG. so they should have expected retaliation

pot splitting is silly, but not "wrong," imo. it's something i would never do myself, i'm far too competitive, i'd rather lose than have a split victory. i do, however, realize that at higher stakes, you're more likely to want an assured prize. maybe i'd change my tune if i was competing for 10-20x more money than SG usually plays for. but if it is against MLG rules, then curse/dig was stupid to try it

MATCH FIXING, however, is a serious problem. fucking with brackets and fucking over other teams is just downright shameful. you can't call a game competitive if there's match fixing, especially at such a high level. if THIS part is true, i've lost a ton of respect for curse/dig. dignitas has been my favorite team for a time, i would really hate for this to be true. if this turns up true, i doubt i'll be watching any dig/curse streams or supporting them. but i've got my fingers crossed that it's not true, for now



---

as for what it means for other teams... TD, mme, lgn, orb, nick allen is handsome, SG (hue), KSG, JTU, unR, CLG.B, etc etc etc, all the teams that have potential but have never made it big, should be FOAMING AT THE MOUTH for this to be true. pending possible punishment, this could crack the NA scene wide open. considering how bad TSM.evo is playing, punishment could leave NA to basically be a 2-team scene with only TSM and CLG being competitors. I would think these teams would be praying to karma gods and jumping on a strict practice regimen, because if curse and dignitas go down, season 3 could be anyone's game (at least in NA... i think we kind of have a way to go to catch up to azubu, M5, and some of the other top-tier non-NA teams). s3 gonna be wide open and fun imo



I agree with all your points except the first.

For me their actions had nothing to do with MLG. The tournament is about showcasing entertaining games FOR THE FANS. The teams wanted to add some excitement and a twist. Well it seems a lot of people enjoyed it so mission accomplished. As long as both teams were still trying to win, thats the thing that really only matters in my eyes. If they were throwing then harsh punishment should be thrown down on them outside of their prize money being taken away.
Never Knows Best.
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