Unfortunatly, he wont win, so next best would be TOO or M5's jungle, depending on who wins tomorrow.
[IEM] Kiev Discussion - Page 137
Forum Index > LoL Tournaments |
At any point of IEM Kiev, if you think of an interesting byline, please drop a sentence in the Pro Scene thread. (e.g. "Day 2: M5 hype was everything people expected") At the end of the month, I'll catalogue the results of Kiev but also any interesting facts or events that happen over the course of the tournament. Thanks. Neo, 20.1.2012 | ||
Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
Unfortunatly, he wont win, so next best would be TOO or M5's jungle, depending on who wins tomorrow. | ||
wussleeQ
United States3130 Posts
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Koop
Canada7 Posts
Hopfully the TSM vs Dignitas games get posted soon... Unfortunately I had to work all day and missed all games ![]() | ||
Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
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tobi9999
United States1966 Posts
On January 22 2012 09:59 Ryuu314 wrote: m5 v. SK wasn't even close holy shit -.-; wait til you see Dignitas vs TSM :/ | ||
Don_Julio
2220 Posts
Is it just coincidence? Are M5 and TSM just so much above the rest that they dominate every aspect of the game? Or is every lol promatch as | ||
triangle
United States3803 Posts
On January 22 2012 11:37 Don_Julio wrote: IEM is the first time im watching professional lol games. I've not seen any close games yet. All the games have been really one sided so far. Seems like the proteams abuse a tiny lead so much that there is no way the opponents can catch up. Makes the first few minutes really exciting but you can stop watching when 10 minutes are over. Is it just coincidence? Are M5 and TSM just so much above the rest that they dominate every aspect of the game? Or is every lol promatch as This tournament has been really really one sided... usually games are closer than this. | ||
Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On January 22 2012 11:37 Don_Julio wrote: IEM is the first time im watching professional lol games. I've not seen any close games yet. All the games have been really one sided so far. Seems like the proteams abuse a tiny lead so much that there is no way the opponents can catch up. Makes the first few minutes really exciting but you can stop watching when 10 minutes are over. Is it just coincidence? Are M5 and TSM just so much above the rest that they dominate every aspect of the game? Or is every lol promatch as Considering that there are really only 2 top teams there, ya the games have been pretty bad. (sorry neo, after Dig's performance today, they get dumped down to b tier US) | ||
Chiharu Harukaze
12112 Posts
On January 22 2012 11:37 Don_Julio wrote: IEM is the first time im watching professional lol games. I've not seen any close games yet. All the games have been really one sided so far. Seems like the proteams abuse a tiny lead so much that there is no way the opponents can catch up. Makes the first few minutes really exciting but you can stop watching when 10 minutes are over. Is it just coincidence? Are M5 and TSM just so much above the rest that they dominate every aspect of the game? Or is every lol promatch as This is probably because in this IEM a lot of the best teams aren't present. Several of the teams here are actually second or even third choice teams who are replacing other teams who can't make it for various reasons. Curse Gaming is also not running their main 5 as several players couldn't get visas in time or have classes. Dignitas is also running a new player on their roster. White Lotus was a third choice replacement for several other very strong EU teams. aAa recently replaced several members of their roster, as did SK. That's why it's been so much of a stomp-fest. However, TSM and M5 are both world-class and in top form so tomorrow should be some very very tense games. If you're looking for some really close and exciting games, off the top of my head I recommend the Dreamhack 2011 Season Championship Semi-finals (TSM v aAa Game 1), IEM Cologne Gamescom 2011 Finals (TSM v CLG series), IEM Guangzhou 2011 Semifinals (WE v eHome Game 2) and North American Dreamhack 2011 Qualifiers Quaterfinals (EG v TSM Quaterfinals Game 1, EG v RS Game 1 and 2). | ||
Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On January 22 2012 11:44 Two_DoWn wrote: Considering that there are really only 2 top teams there, ya the games have been pretty bad. (sorry neo, after Dig's performance today, they get dumped down to b tier US) I'll admit that Dignitas's performance today left something to be desired, but losing their shot caller is kinda a big deal. Also, Neo is a fake fanboy. | ||
Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On January 22 2012 12:14 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: I'll admit that Dignitas's performance today left something to be desired, but losing their shot caller is kinda a big deal. Also, Neo is a fake fanboy. Thats why Neo is #2 fanboi. You are #1 fanboi blitz. But ya. Neo tried his hardest to convince me that Dignitas was still decent after losing their most important player and most important role. Alas, even Neo could not escape the matrix this time. | ||
Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
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CeriseCherries
6170 Posts
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Hidden_MotiveS
Canada2562 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On January 22 2012 12:19 Two_DoWn wrote: Thats why Neo is #2 fanboi. You are #1 fanboi blitz. But ya. Neo tried his hardest to convince me that Dignitas was still decent after losing their most important player and most important role. Alas, even Neo could not escape the matrix this time. I tend to cheer for players that I'm close to, not teams specifically. Edit: and yeah, Dignitas is probably B tier now. They need to simply practice more. | ||
Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On January 22 2012 13:56 NeoIllusions wrote: I tend to cheer for players that I'm close to, not teams specifically. Neo&Scarra sittin in a tree~ | ||
FR4CT4L
Australia697 Posts
Jatt lays down some analysis of yesterdays matches and provides some more info including a bit about how TSM handle scrims. + Show Spoiler + After the great response from my last post and getting mentioned on stream, (thanks Joe and Deman!) I decided to do another post. Here are some thoughts on why the games went the way they did, and some finals predictions. SK vs. M5 http://iemkiev.leagueoflegends.com/match/semi-final-1-moscow-five-vs-sk-gaming M5 has amazing early aggression which is leading to them being able to make snowball plays throughout the game. I can’t stress the importance of these early plays enough, because without the small early advantages M5 acquires in all of these games none of their aggressive plays afterwards would be possible. In game 1 the early play was Sona cutting off Rammus at blue, harassing him down just low enough so that Shyvanna could steal the red buff. This was all made possible by M5s stellar picking strategy. Sona is allowed to roam at level 1 thanks to Soraka not being an aggressive laner. Since they are planning on a red invasion, GP is allowed to take their own red to make up for the first wave of XP he'll miss in a 2v1 lane bottom. Then they lane Kennen + post roam Sona top and crush Irelia. Cutting off Rammus’s red buff and keeping him at level 2 does wonders for every lanes aggression. In game 2, the early play was another Gangplank buff steal ala group stage. This time it was red buff instead of blue, and they had the added bonus of taking 3 wraiths to further deny SK’s jungle. Laning against a GP who has cloth, 7 pots, and a buff at lvl 1 isn’t fair in any way. Thanks to the GP buff steal, M5 was able to win top lane almost immediately. Now what’s brilliant is how well Diomondez and the rest of M5 capitalize on these early advantages. It’s actually fairly formulaic, as they have done nearly the same strategy in all of their games. Step 1: Gain early advantage, usually at level 1. Split up the team, have Shyvanna + 1 do normal jungle, while having the other 1 to 3 players grief the enemy jungle. This assures that Shyvanna will have an early lead, and also may benefit with a lane getting a substantial edge Step 2: Steal the buff which the enemy started at (red or blue depending on enemy jungler) at 7:15, using your jungle advantage + the lane which has the advantage (GP lvl 1 buffmaster top). At this point they have given 3 people large edges. Top lane had the buff, Jungle has the levels and XP, and Midlane doesn’t have to lane against enemy buff holders. The rest of the game is just M5 forcing fights around objectives of their choosing. The enemy team has to make choices with no positive outcome. They can either concede the objectives to M5 and extend the lead, or they can contest and likely lose the engagement. M5 is REALLY REALLY GOOD TSM vs. Dig http://iemkiev.leagueoflegends.com/match/semi-final-2-team-solomid-vs-dignitas Game 1 This game was a catastrophe for Dig. Nearly every lane lost early. The early jungle invade by dig was a misguided attempt to gain early advantage which backfired terribly. TSM had the ward on blue buff and OddOne used his experience to cut Skarner off at Wraiths, which in turn allowed him to steal his red. From there Skarner had no avenues to get back into the game. Starting Dorans blade, vs. one of the highest harass lanes in the game, with no sustain on your side is complete ignorance. They lost the lane at the shop screen. I really hope Imaqtpie mistakenly bought that item out of habit. Regi used OddOne’s advantage to push mid without recourse. Cassio is stronger than Veigar early and the Skarner had no way of punishing. Voyboy tried to place a forward ward at blue buff, which was another misguided attempt at coming back into the game. You place that ward when your jungle has an advantage, because you can force blue steals if you have a small lane/jungle advantage. He got caught by the already-ahead Lee Sin and essentially lost the lane at that moment. Everything that happened after this in the game was just standard execution by TSM. They took their gigantic early game advantage and turned it into a decisive game 1 victory. Extremely solid play by TSM but mainly they were just reacting to dig’s mistakes. Game 2 Great play by OddOne early. He got an extra special pull on blue buff which allowed him to save smite for a safer red invade. Amazing patience to wait in the red bush, and the high risk play of the red invade on Maokai gave him a great early jungle advantage. From here TSM just kept pushing TOO’s advantage. There was some extremely clever play while stealing blue where OddOne waited in the proper bushes and Ryze cleared back to mid. After that he snuck in for the easy smite steal and kill on Maokai. TSM did such a great job winning their lane matchups that once GP took a lead in the jungle, even Maokai ganks couldn’t result in reliable kills. It was a complete team victory for TSM, everyone individually won their matchup and both games snowballed into huge victories. Overall Summary and trends In both semi-finals, counter jungling was the name of the game. In 3 out of 4 games the enemy red was invaded and stolen within the first 3 minutes of the game. Stealing red at that point is absolutely devastating for a jungler, and none of the junglers today were able to recover after that point 3 minutes into the game. The effect of counter jungling like it was seen today has huge impacts on the rest of the game. I would argue that the impact of a crushed jungler is even larger than successful ganks. I’m not sure why counter-jungling has been stressed this tourney, but it has easily been the most successful form of gameplay. Teams and players have gotten better at noticing ganks approach in lanes and top ganking champions have fallen out of favor thanks to nerfs and superior warding. As a reaction to difficult to gank lanes, these teams have simply ran into the enemy jungle and forced fights there. The jungle invades provide an extreme amount of pressure on the enemy lanes; furthermore, if the enemy jungler gets shut down every lane gets to play with impunity. Counter jungling like this can win 3 lanes, while ganking can usually only win 1. What about the finals? I will say from experience that TSM and EG were the most difficult teams for me to counter-jungle against. Don’t expect for TSM to fall for the same tricks M5 has been using thus far, and don’t expect M5 to try the same shenanigans against TSM. The level 1 meta is something that had completely died before this weekend, and M5 have brought it back with a vengeance. I look forward to see what both teams figure out and bring to the table when the clock strikes 1:40 Early Game: So much hinges here for both teams. M5 have won nearly all of their games this tourney in the early game, and TSM took the early game to Dignitas even harder than M5 did to their opponents. I think everything hinges on how they attempt to counter-jungle each other and how each team reacts. If you remember, TSM wrote the book on stealing blue at 7:15. They stopped doing it because too many teams began punishing them for overextending for buffs. Don’t expect them to forget how they were punished. If Diomondez is planning on invading TSMs starting buff at 7:15 he may be in for quite a surprise. Picks:This is really exciting. I expect a sona first pick or ban, because both of these teams have been picking her early all tourney and punishing teams for having inferior supports. (if the other team doesn’t pick Soraka, they punish with Sona roam and passive 1v2, if the other team brings no sustain the punish with high harass) I’m expecting a Shyvanna ban, I don’t think TSM is arrogant enough to allow Diamondez to play the champion he has been hot on all tourney. Also, Expect TSM to pick Gangplank early or ban it. A lot of M5’s strategies thus far have worked closely around gangplanks utility and his abusiveness while holding buffs. But TSM lost all their scrims, how do they have a chance? TSM has never played their best in scrims. Back when I was scrimming with Dig we actually decided to stop playing TSM because of the way they approach scrims. Solomid will never play their best strategies in scrims. They seemingly only scrim to figure out how other teams play optimally and figure out what they can do against them in tourneys. Pay attention to it next time they scrim, they intentionally let the other team get their money champions just to see how to deal with it/figure out what they are. It's smart. So with everything in mind, I actually like TSM’s chances. I’d put it around 55% TSM 45% M5. It should be a fantastic finish. **Edited to reflect less negatively on TSM's scrim practices, if I were still playing competitively and had a team on the east coast, playing A5's ladder would be the best way to spam practice. Also every team plays sub-optimally in scrims, TSM just plays comparatively worse than other teams | ||
Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On January 22 2012 14:04 FR4CT4L wrote: http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/oqkg6/iem_kiev_semifinal_analysis_and_championship/ Jatt lays down some analysis of yesterdays matches and provides some more info including a bit about how TSM handle scrims. + Show Spoiler + After the great response from my last post and getting mentioned on stream, (thanks Joe and Deman!) I decided to do another post. Here are some thoughts on why the games went the way they did, and some finals predictions. SK vs. M5 http://iemkiev.leagueoflegends.com/match/semi-final-1-moscow-five-vs-sk-gaming M5 has amazing early aggression which is leading to them being able to make snowball plays throughout the game. I can’t stress the importance of these early plays enough, because without the small early advantages M5 acquires in all of these games none of their aggressive plays afterwards would be possible. In game 1 the early play was Sona cutting off Rammus at blue, harassing him down just low enough so that Shyvanna could steal the red buff. This was all made possible by M5s stellar picking strategy. Sona is allowed to roam at level 1 thanks to Soraka not being an aggressive laner. Since they are planning on a red invasion, GP is allowed to take their own red to make up for the first wave of XP he'll miss in a 2v1 lane bottom. Then they lane Kennen + post roam Sona top and crush Irelia. Cutting off Rammus’s red buff and keeping him at level 2 does wonders for every lanes aggression. In game 2, the early play was another Gangplank buff steal ala group stage. This time it was red buff instead of blue, and they had the added bonus of taking 3 wraiths to further deny SK’s jungle. Laning against a GP who has cloth, 7 pots, and a buff at lvl 1 isn’t fair in any way. Thanks to the GP buff steal, M5 was able to win top lane almost immediately. Now what’s brilliant is how well Diomondez and the rest of M5 capitalize on these early advantages. It’s actually fairly formulaic, as they have done nearly the same strategy in all of their games. Step 1: Gain early advantage, usually at level 1. Split up the team, have Shyvanna + 1 do normal jungle, while having the other 1 to 3 players grief the enemy jungle. This assures that Shyvanna will have an early lead, and also may benefit with a lane getting a substantial edge Step 2: Steal the buff which the enemy started at (red or blue depending on enemy jungler) at 7:15, using your jungle advantage + the lane which has the advantage (GP lvl 1 buffmaster top). At this point they have given 3 people large edges. Top lane had the buff, Jungle has the levels and XP, and Midlane doesn’t have to lane against enemy buff holders. The rest of the game is just M5 forcing fights around objectives of their choosing. The enemy team has to make choices with no positive outcome. They can either concede the objectives to M5 and extend the lead, or they can contest and likely lose the engagement. M5 is REALLY REALLY GOOD TSM vs. Dig http://iemkiev.leagueoflegends.com/match/semi-final-2-team-solomid-vs-dignitas Game 1 This game was a catastrophe for Dig. Nearly every lane lost early. The early jungle invade by dig was a misguided attempt to gain early advantage which backfired terribly. TSM had the ward on blue buff and OddOne used his experience to cut Skarner off at Wraiths, which in turn allowed him to steal his red. From there Skarner had no avenues to get back into the game. Starting Dorans blade, vs. one of the highest harass lanes in the game, with no sustain on your side is complete ignorance. They lost the lane at the shop screen. I really hope Imaqtpie mistakenly bought that item out of habit. Regi used OddOne’s advantage to push mid without recourse. Cassio is stronger than Veigar early and the Skarner had no way of punishing. Voyboy tried to place a forward ward at blue buff, which was another misguided attempt at coming back into the game. You place that ward when your jungle has an advantage, because you can force blue steals if you have a small lane/jungle advantage. He got caught by the already-ahead Lee Sin and essentially lost the lane at that moment. Everything that happened after this in the game was just standard execution by TSM. They took their gigantic early game advantage and turned it into a decisive game 1 victory. Extremely solid play by TSM but mainly they were just reacting to dig’s mistakes. Game 2 Great play by OddOne early. He got an extra special pull on blue buff which allowed him to save smite for a safer red invade. Amazing patience to wait in the red bush, and the high risk play of the red invade on Maokai gave him a great early jungle advantage. From here TSM just kept pushing TOO’s advantage. There was some extremely clever play while stealing blue where OddOne waited in the proper bushes and Ryze cleared back to mid. After that he snuck in for the easy smite steal and kill on Maokai. TSM did such a great job winning their lane matchups that once GP took a lead in the jungle, even Maokai ganks couldn’t result in reliable kills. It was a complete team victory for TSM, everyone individually won their matchup and both games snowballed into huge victories. Overall Summary and trends In both semi-finals, counter jungling was the name of the game. In 3 out of 4 games the enemy red was invaded and stolen within the first 3 minutes of the game. Stealing red at that point is absolutely devastating for a jungler, and none of the junglers today were able to recover after that point 3 minutes into the game. The effect of counter jungling like it was seen today has huge impacts on the rest of the game. I would argue that the impact of a crushed jungler is even larger than successful ganks. I’m not sure why counter-jungling has been stressed this tourney, but it has easily been the most successful form of gameplay. Teams and players have gotten better at noticing ganks approach in lanes and top ganking champions have fallen out of favor thanks to nerfs and superior warding. As a reaction to difficult to gank lanes, these teams have simply ran into the enemy jungle and forced fights there. The jungle invades provide an extreme amount of pressure on the enemy lanes; furthermore, if the enemy jungler gets shut down every lane gets to play with impunity. Counter jungling like this can win 3 lanes, while ganking can usually only win 1. What about the finals? I will say from experience that TSM and EG were the most difficult teams for me to counter-jungle against. Don’t expect for TSM to fall for the same tricks M5 has been using thus far, and don’t expect M5 to try the same shenanigans against TSM. The level 1 meta is something that had completely died before this weekend, and M5 have brought it back with a vengeance. I look forward to see what both teams figure out and bring to the table when the clock strikes 1:40 Early Game: So much hinges here for both teams. M5 have won nearly all of their games this tourney in the early game, and TSM took the early game to Dignitas even harder than M5 did to their opponents. I think everything hinges on how they attempt to counter-jungle each other and how each team reacts. If you remember, TSM wrote the book on stealing blue at 7:15. They stopped doing it because too many teams began punishing them for overextending for buffs. Don’t expect them to forget how they were punished. If Diomondez is planning on invading TSMs starting buff at 7:15 he may be in for quite a surprise. Picks:This is really exciting. I expect a sona first pick or ban, because both of these teams have been picking her early all tourney and punishing teams for having inferior supports. (if the other team doesn’t pick Soraka, they punish with Sona roam and passive 1v2, if the other team brings no sustain the punish with high harass) I’m expecting a Shyvanna ban, I don’t think TSM is arrogant enough to allow Diamondez to play the champion he has been hot on all tourney. Also, Expect TSM to pick Gangplank early or ban it. A lot of M5’s strategies thus far have worked closely around gangplanks utility and his abusiveness while holding buffs. But TSM lost all their scrims, how do they have a chance? TSM has never played their best in scrims. Back when I was scrimming with Dig we actually decided to stop playing TSM because of the way they approach scrims. Solomid will never play their best strategies in scrims. They seemingly only scrim to figure out how other teams play optimally and figure out what they can do against them in tourneys. Pay attention to it next time they scrim, they intentionally let the other team get their money champions just to see how to deal with it/figure out what they are. It's smart. So with everything in mind, I actually like TSM’s chances. I’d put it around 55% TSM 45% M5. It should be a fantastic finish. **Edited to reflect less negatively on TSM's scrim practices, if I were still playing competitively and had a team on the east coast, playing A5's ladder would be the best way to spam practice. Also every team plays sub-optimally in scrims, TSM just plays comparatively worse than other teams Cant say I am all that surprised. I mean, all CLG does in scrims is mess around and try to teach doublift how to play. TSM doesnt have dead weight, so they just get to try stuff. | ||
elementz
United States281 Posts
TSM lost most of their scrims cause they wanted to repeat the CDE play style that saint and regi had where they tried to snowball regi (mid) out of control through mid-game and win the game then; it didn't work through their scrims and they lost so much in those scrims. You can't accuse them of throwing scrims because they wanted to practice a playstyle that didn't work. The jungle invading TSM has been around for so long (what they did today vs dignitas), so you can say they went to their roots for this tournament (especially watching m5 do the same style). I don't agree with Jatt on them throwing scrims; maybe allowing themselves to get somewhat counter-picked or allowing player to play their "best champ" so they can practice against it, but that is what scrims are for. | ||
De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
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