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[Patch 5.17] League of Draven Patch Discussion - Page 11

Forum Index > LoL Strategy
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Certain topics are blacklisted from Patch Discussion and they include:
  • "Elo hell"
  • The Tribunal
  • Bans, either from TL.net or LoL
  • "What is a tank" (and other vague monikers)
  • Unjustified game theory / speculative discussion about the game
  • Champion balance and game design discussion
Caiada
Profile Joined January 2015
United States3052 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-13 01:55:57
September 13 2015 01:28 GMT
#201
If we're rating the shield that highly, Maw's trades 1k gold in EHP (sort of; it's magic only, but this is all only vs notable AP anyway, and like I said, you teamfight or you're far ahead, build damage, and kill people. Damage like Maw.) and 10% CDR for 2k-3k gold of AD. I do rate Maw highly.

Why does Locket still exist.
XDG Mata
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-13 01:39:55
September 13 2015 01:35 GMT
#202
The Locket shield should be rated highly. It should be rated even higher since it was changed.


Comparing the Maw shield to the Locket shield is unfair. Maw is extremely cost efficient in a best case scenario. 400 HP, 40 MR, and an "average" of 85 AD all for 3200g is ridiculously strong.

But the thing about Maw is that you're not always going to get a best case scenario. The best case scenario is conditional on the assumption that you're getting burst below 30% HP and taking lots of magic damage. There are enemy team comps where it'll be more likely than others, but even against double AP it's very possible that their two APs will focus your team, you'll be fighting their ADC+Support, and you'll get no value from the shield.

The Locket shield should be giving you full value in essentially 100% of situations.

I'm not saying that Maw is bad mind, just that doing a straight up comparison between the two items is unfair. Maw has to be compared in the context of the individual situation in which it is present.



But yes, why does Locket still exist. Even after the defensive item changes which slightly nerfed Locket and slightly buffed SV/Banshee, it's still the best MR item in the game, and is a totally reasonable buy even in "selfish" scenarios.



PS: I could make a long post about how in general Banshee's Veil is better than Spirit Visage too, but that would be conditional on you not needing the CDR.

Basically your pure defensive MR item flowchart is like this.

1 - Does your team need MR aura?
Yes - Locket
No - Go to 2

2 - Do you have crazy heals and sustain built into your kit (Vlad, Mundo, Warwick etc)
Yes - Visage
No - Go to 3

3 - Do you need CDR?
Yes - Locket
No - Banshee
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
killerdog
Profile Joined February 2010
Denmark6522 Posts
September 13 2015 01:51 GMT
#203
I honestly don't think I've seen someone build banshees in at least a month, everyone just seems to have forgotten it exists
Caiada
Profile Joined January 2015
United States3052 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-13 01:57:00
September 13 2015 01:55 GMT
#204
People would buy Maw a lot more if they didn't think so hard about the additional AD at lower health. The AD on it is crazy efficient even at perfectly average health levels for a fight. The 'problem' is shield CD/value. But it's not actually that long. If you're going to be killing people and are against AP, it's crucial. There's a reason a lot of ADCs are even opting into it. And it's perfectly legit to go for it as late third offensive item on Darius if necessary (though SV is fucking insane on him now so l0l), MR item on Riven/Fiora, and so on.

Side note/locket whine: 2 seconds for Locket shield is probably too long. Really ought to just fall off quickly over the duration like Sterak's. Actually, every primarily reactive shield should to reward actually being reactive and not trivial prep work, but that's a different discussion/thread maybe.

At least all the additional mixed items gave us a lot more choices for damage, even if the pure tank choices are more clear-cut than they have been this whole season.
XDG Mata
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
September 13 2015 01:57 GMT
#205
Banshee's Veil is pretty strong even in situations where you're not getting great value out of the spellshield.

When you are getting ideal value out of the spellshield it's invaluable.

It just depends on how much you need the Locket CDR, really.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35143 Posts
September 13 2015 02:02 GMT
#206
On September 13 2015 10:35 Ketara wrote:
The Locket shield should be rated highly. It should be rated even higher since it was changed.


Comparing the Maw shield to the Locket shield is unfair. Maw is extremely cost efficient in a best case scenario. 400 HP, 40 MR, and an "average" of 85 AD all for 3200g is ridiculously strong.

But the thing about Maw is that you're not always going to get a best case scenario. The best case scenario is conditional on the assumption that you're getting burst below 30% HP and taking lots of magic damage. There are enemy team comps where it'll be more likely than others, but even against double AP it's very possible that their two APs will focus your team, you'll be fighting their ADC+Support, and you'll get no value from the shield.

The Locket shield should be giving you full value in essentially 100% of situations.

I'm not saying that Maw is bad mind, just that doing a straight up comparison between the two items is unfair. Maw has to be compared in the context of the individual situation in which it is present.



But yes, why does Locket still exist. Even after the defensive item changes which slightly nerfed Locket and slightly buffed SV/Banshee, it's still the best MR item in the game, and is a totally reasonable buy even in "selfish" scenarios.



PS: I could make a long post about how in general Banshee's Veil is better than Spirit Visage too, but that would be conditional on you not needing the CDR.

Basically your pure defensive MR item flowchart is like this.

1 - Does your team need MR aura?
Yes - Locket
No - Go to 2

2 - Do you have crazy heals and sustain built into your kit (Vlad, Mundo, Warwick etc)
Yes - Visage
No - Go to 3

3 - Do you need CDR?
Yes - Locket
No - Banshee

The Legion aura change wasn't done to make Locket bad, it was to make Aegis less strong since now it "only" negates sorc boots pen instead of doing that and then some.
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
September 13 2015 02:04 GMT
#207
It was a slight nerf though.

It put more of the power into the active which has 600 range, and less of the power into the aura which is 1100 range.

I'm not saying it was a bad change, I liked the change. I just think it maybe didn't go quite far enough.

But that's tangential balance discussion, not really practical conversation.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Caiada
Profile Joined January 2015
United States3052 Posts
September 13 2015 02:05 GMT
#208
I sure wish Locket was bad.

And IE/single-item crit too, but that is another story.
XDG Mata
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-13 10:04:08
September 13 2015 10:02 GMT
#209
On September 13 2015 09:25 Frolossus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2015 09:15 Slayer91 wrote:
On September 13 2015 09:06 Frolossus wrote:

2 things happen at this point
either you're far enough ahead it doesn't matter and you can 1v3 or better OR you have to go split


except shyvana is a weak split pusher in the sense that she lacks mobility and tower killing power (like a bad nasus basically) and if you're far ahead then you can win the teamfights by building tank items anyway
also it can be unreliable to try to win the game before lategame on a champ who can't gank at all early game.

I mean if the top laner is strong enough to defend with TP you don't have much you can do and it's still not that hard to gank you.

shyv is extremely mobile wtf
she has a massive dash that can counteract some forms of CC and one of the highest movespeeds with her W on.

in fact the reasons for which you pick shyv is that she exerts tons of map pressure from running around and clearing fast with W. she also happens to be one of the hardest scaling melee characters in the game right now which makes her an exceptional duelist.

if you're far ahead you don't need any more tank items. there's this weird relationship in the game where if you have a level and item advantage and your damage > their damage you can get away on 1.5-2 tank items.

the problem with team fights at the end of the game for shyv is never going to be that you aren't tanky enough. it's that you/your team is incapable of killing their biggest damage threats before they kill yours. if this happens then you either pick better fights or lose the game.

shyv tends to be a very snowbally character. if she gets ahead you can choke out the enemy jungler and 3 hit carries. the hardest part of playing the character is knowing when to fight and how to maximize your damage.


her w isn't that great for mobility if you don't auto to keep it going. her dash is an ultimate ability and its slow moving and easy to juke.
it's not bad but if you want to escape from a 3-4-5 man gank it's nothing compared to udyr e or something.
I can rephrase the next paragraph "there's this weird relationship in the game where if your gold>their gold you'll probably win regardless of build"
"the problem is never going to be that you're not tanky enough"
right. so you've never lost a teamfight because you didn't die. you only lost a teamfight because the enemy team killed your team. your teams fault in the end i got you.

honestly it just sounds like you're on a winstreak and thinking about how easy the game is when you get ahead why even talk about builds we win the game anyway lelelele
how about your team is losing and their team is controlling the jungle and pushing mid you have only 2 or 3 items how do you win the game.
brokenwatch
Profile Joined July 2011
Azerbaijan99 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-01 03:29:41
September 13 2015 18:15 GMT
#210
its intentional you underestimate his powers.

User was temp banned for this post.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
September 13 2015 18:26 GMT
#211
LOL RIP
AlterKot
Profile Blog Joined January 2014
Poland7525 Posts
September 13 2015 18:28 GMT
#212
rekt
Americans don't like to use unblockables, it is considered not honest. You press a button at the wrong time and hit the other person, you are random, not a top player. You DP Sim's far fierce, it is random and not honest.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
September 13 2015 18:30 GMT
#213
Can't even use the right "you're" when insulting us.
Freeeeeeedom
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
September 13 2015 18:33 GMT
#214
its intentional you underestimate his powers.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
September 13 2015 18:45 GMT
#215
That's what happens when you get to this point.
Freeeeeeedom
Frolossus
Profile Joined February 2010
United States4779 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-13 19:47:36
September 13 2015 19:44 GMT
#216
On September 13 2015 19:02 Slayer91 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2015 09:25 Frolossus wrote:
On September 13 2015 09:15 Slayer91 wrote:
On September 13 2015 09:06 Frolossus wrote:

2 things happen at this point
either you're far enough ahead it doesn't matter and you can 1v3 or better OR you have to go split


except shyvana is a weak split pusher in the sense that she lacks mobility and tower killing power (like a bad nasus basically) and if you're far ahead then you can win the teamfights by building tank items anyway
also it can be unreliable to try to win the game before lategame on a champ who can't gank at all early game.

I mean if the top laner is strong enough to defend with TP you don't have much you can do and it's still not that hard to gank you.

shyv is extremely mobile wtf
she has a massive dash that can counteract some forms of CC and one of the highest movespeeds with her W on.

in fact the reasons for which you pick shyv is that she exerts tons of map pressure from running around and clearing fast with W. she also happens to be one of the hardest scaling melee characters in the game right now which makes her an exceptional duelist.

if you're far ahead you don't need any more tank items. there's this weird relationship in the game where if you have a level and item advantage and your damage > their damage you can get away on 1.5-2 tank items.

the problem with team fights at the end of the game for shyv is never going to be that you aren't tanky enough. it's that you/your team is incapable of killing their biggest damage threats before they kill yours. if this happens then you either pick better fights or lose the game.

shyv tends to be a very snowbally character. if she gets ahead you can choke out the enemy jungler and 3 hit carries. the hardest part of playing the character is knowing when to fight and how to maximize your damage.


her w isn't that great for mobility if you don't auto to keep it going. her dash is an ultimate ability and its slow moving and easy to juke.
it's not bad but if you want to escape from a 3-4-5 man gank it's nothing compared to udyr e or something.
I can rephrase the next paragraph "there's this weird relationship in the game where if your gold>their gold you'll probably win regardless of build"
"the problem is never going to be that you're not tanky enough"
right. so you've never lost a teamfight because you didn't die. you only lost a teamfight because the enemy team killed your team. your teams fault in the end i got you.

honestly it just sounds like you're on a winstreak and thinking about how easy the game is when you get ahead why even talk about builds we win the game anyway lelelele
how about your team is losing and their team is controlling the jungle and pushing mid you have only 2 or 3 items how do you win the game.

how am i blaming my team in any way?

you watch the mini map, starve their jungler and counter gank to get yourself more ahead.
if you are losing teamfights you could've played better to win it. you're gonna be 3 hitting carries.
damage > tank stats on late game shyv. the happy middle ground between glass cannon and full tank has been right around deadmans/randuins + maw. if i die during a teamfight then i picked a bad engage or didn't kill the right person.

as the jungler if you are losing the mid game then you could've done a lot more to make it so you weren't losing in the first place
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-13 19:56:24
September 13 2015 19:54 GMT
#217
i can more or less agree with that but then if you do all those things it doesnt matter what champion you build so saying its a strong build seems in accurate its more like it works if you have a winning advantage but so does everything
Caiada
Profile Joined January 2015
United States3052 Posts
September 13 2015 19:58 GMT
#218
Everything is situational (unless you're an ADC). The more general we're being, the less useful the conversation is.
XDG Mata
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-13 20:04:50
September 13 2015 20:03 GMT
#219
My point is he's just making the assumption that you're ahead enough to win regardless of build more or less and then advising full damage so you can kill people faster and thus win faster.
You should generally choose the build that helps you win in as many situations as possible and the important ones are the ones where you're close to equal all the way down to losing and possible comeback.

It's quite naive to say something like if I die it was a bad engage when that may be true it may also be true that if you changed your build you could have won

now its extremely unlikely that the one build with heavy damage on a melee is the best one and if it is its even more unlikely that its the best one for all situations.
Frolossus
Profile Joined February 2010
United States4779 Posts
September 13 2015 20:14 GMT
#220
On September 14 2015 05:03 Slayer91 wrote:
My point is he's just making the assumption that you're ahead enough to win regardless of build more or less and then advising full damage so you can kill people faster and thus win faster.
You should generally choose the build that helps you win in as many situations as possible and the important ones are the ones where you're close to equal all the way down to losing and possible comeback.

It's quite naive to say something like if I die it was a bad engage when that may be true it may also be true that if you changed your build you could have won

now its extremely unlikely that the one build with heavy damage on a melee is the best one and if it is its even more unlikely that its the best one for all situations.

shyv's design is best suited to build more damage than tank items and resists.
play to her strengths not her weaknesses and you win more
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