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Certain topics are blacklisted from Patch Discussion and they include: - "Elo hell"
- The Tribunal
- Bans, either from TL.net or LoL
- "What is a tank" (and other vague monikers)
- Unjustified game theory / speculative discussion about the game
- Champion balance and game design discussion
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On September 13 2015 04:17 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2015 03:47 Frolossus wrote:On September 13 2015 00:10 Skitter wrote:
Yeah, that's basically my mindset in the jungle. I usually don't gank without red, but I like counterjungling a lot as well. How early do you think Dragon should be started? For me, whenever I get devourer, I try to kill the enemy jungler/send them back to base and rush dragon. Do you think that time would be better spent ganking/farming? And how do you feel about Titanic Hydra and Steraks Gage? (Haven't tried either of those on Shyvana yet). What item do I get if they have heavy AP? I feel Spirit VIsage is wasted on Shyvana i only get visage if they have double fed APs otherwise maw why does that make sense wtf visage gives hp and a very slight sustain so its better against comps without 2xAPs since the hp helps against everything and having a hp+mr item is the best way to make bursting you down with their mid laner infeasible maw isn't that amazing on shyv anyway but spirit+maw would be good vs lots of ap . locket is good yea but it sucks you if you're going to forget to use the active
if they don't have 2 APs you don't need the sustain or life, you get deadmans and maw to kill things faster
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Deadmans and Maw are two items, I think it's unfair to compare spirit visage both of them.
"Need" is a silly word to use in this kind of context. It's cost versus benefit. Typically we see shyvana with sated+botrk having probably the strongest 1v1 damage in the game at 2 items and getting the single best item to avoid being burst down in midgame (spirit visage or locket) makes a lot of sense don't you think?
It's rare that melees get away with more than 1 damage item especially one with no kind of cc or reliable hard gap closer and its one of the reasons shyvana relies on getting super farmed.
After that you'd probably expect that you are still fairly squishy and the adc is becoming more relevant so then it makes sense to get a randuins or deadmans.
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On September 13 2015 08:24 Slayer91 wrote:
Deadmans and Maw are two items, I think it's unfair to compare spirit visage both of them.
"Need" is a silly word to use in this kind of context. It's cost versus benefit. Typically we see shyvana with sated+botrk having probably the strongest 1v1 damage in the game at 2 items and getting the single best item to avoid being burst down in midgame (spirit visage or locket) makes a lot of sense don't you think?
It's rare that melees get away with more than 1 damage item especially one with no kind of cc or reliable hard gap closer and its one of the reasons shyvana relies on getting super farmed.
After that you'd probably expect that you are still fairly squishy and the adc is becoming more relevant so then it makes sense to get a randuins or deadmans.
you get more than 1 damage item to hard carry, that is the shyvana play style.
if you are getting bursted then deadmans plate is good and immediately follow up with hexdrinker->maw. it'll give you way more than enough stats to live because dragon gives you more free stats.
if you really really have to you could get away with giants belt ->hex drinker but the situations that i've had to actually do that are extremely rare.
your job is to kill things not to tank.
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On September 13 2015 08:32 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2015 08:24 Slayer91 wrote:
Deadmans and Maw are two items, I think it's unfair to compare spirit visage both of them.
"Need" is a silly word to use in this kind of context. It's cost versus benefit. Typically we see shyvana with sated+botrk having probably the strongest 1v1 damage in the game at 2 items and getting the single best item to avoid being burst down in midgame (spirit visage or locket) makes a lot of sense don't you think?
It's rare that melees get away with more than 1 damage item especially one with no kind of cc or reliable hard gap closer and its one of the reasons shyvana relies on getting super farmed.
After that you'd probably expect that you are still fairly squishy and the adc is becoming more relevant so then it makes sense to get a randuins or deadmans. you get more than 1 damage item to hard carry, that is the shyvana play style. if you are getting bursted then deadmans plate is good and immediately follow up with hexdrinker->maw. it'll give you way more than enough stats to live because dragon gives you more free stats. if you really really have to you could get away with giants belt ->hex drinker but the situations that i've had to actually do that are extremely rare. your job is to kill things not to tank.
if only that worked for melee champions with no escape abilities
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On September 13 2015 08:34 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2015 08:32 Frolossus wrote:On September 13 2015 08:24 Slayer91 wrote:
Deadmans and Maw are two items, I think it's unfair to compare spirit visage both of them.
"Need" is a silly word to use in this kind of context. It's cost versus benefit. Typically we see shyvana with sated+botrk having probably the strongest 1v1 damage in the game at 2 items and getting the single best item to avoid being burst down in midgame (spirit visage or locket) makes a lot of sense don't you think?
It's rare that melees get away with more than 1 damage item especially one with no kind of cc or reliable hard gap closer and its one of the reasons shyvana relies on getting super farmed.
After that you'd probably expect that you are still fairly squishy and the adc is becoming more relevant so then it makes sense to get a randuins or deadmans. you get more than 1 damage item to hard carry, that is the shyvana play style. if you are getting bursted then deadmans plate is good and immediately follow up with hexdrinker->maw. it'll give you way more than enough stats to live because dragon gives you more free stats. if you really really have to you could get away with giants belt ->hex drinker but the situations that i've had to actually do that are extremely rare. your job is to kill things not to tank. if only that worked for melee champions with no escape abilities
that is the best way of doing it, if you kill them you don't have to escape. if it's unfavorable you have exhaust and you can ult over a wall and run away really fast.
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On September 13 2015 08:36 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2015 08:34 nafta wrote:On September 13 2015 08:32 Frolossus wrote:On September 13 2015 08:24 Slayer91 wrote:
Deadmans and Maw are two items, I think it's unfair to compare spirit visage both of them.
"Need" is a silly word to use in this kind of context. It's cost versus benefit. Typically we see shyvana with sated+botrk having probably the strongest 1v1 damage in the game at 2 items and getting the single best item to avoid being burst down in midgame (spirit visage or locket) makes a lot of sense don't you think?
It's rare that melees get away with more than 1 damage item especially one with no kind of cc or reliable hard gap closer and its one of the reasons shyvana relies on getting super farmed.
After that you'd probably expect that you are still fairly squishy and the adc is becoming more relevant so then it makes sense to get a randuins or deadmans. you get more than 1 damage item to hard carry, that is the shyvana play style. if you are getting bursted then deadmans plate is good and immediately follow up with hexdrinker->maw. it'll give you way more than enough stats to live because dragon gives you more free stats. if you really really have to you could get away with giants belt ->hex drinker but the situations that i've had to actually do that are extremely rare. your job is to kill things not to tank. if only that worked for melee champions with no escape abilities that is the best way of doing it, if you kill them you don't have to escape. if it's unfavorable you have exhaust and you can ult over a wall and run away really fast.
Jesus christ that's manly as fuck
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There's logic to it though.
A champion like Shyvana has to do damage to be a threat. There has to be a reason why the enemy is worried you're in their backline, and its not gonna be that sick Shyvana CC.
At the same time, you have to be able to get onto people in the first place, so you have to find some happy medium between damage and tank.
But you have to build some damage or people can just go lol and ignore you while they kill the rest of your team.
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its all good until the enemy team decides to group and kill you in cc every fight
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On September 13 2015 09:05 Slayer91 wrote:
its all good until the enemy team decides to group and kill you in cc every fight
2 things happen at this point
either you're far enough ahead it doesn't matter and you can 1v3 or better OR you have to go split
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Well I am assuming he goes sated+bork first 2 items and no going more damage after that is just straight up bad unless you are smurfing OR you have lulu+orianna on your team or some other retarded shit like that.
Every time I see shyvana she just gets ccd and killed cuz they get greedy and build damage.
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On September 13 2015 09:08 nafta wrote:
Well I am assuming he goes sated+bork first 2 items and no going more damage after that is just straight up bad unless you are smurfing OR you have lulu+orianna on your team or some other retarded shit like that.
Every time I see shyvana she just gets ccd and killed cuz they get greedy and build damage.
maw and cleaver are totally okay at that point, she gets free armor and mr
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Why would you get visage over banshee on Shyvana BTW?
Seems like banshee on her would be pretigud. She doesn't have any built in sustain so visage isn't high value.
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people who build banshees on melees are quickly disciplined by the rod of the nami w bounce and left crying for another 30 seconds upon which another bounce will hit you from the wraith camp
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she doesn't have mana so it is one of the only cdr + defense options for her
(this is a guess)
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Ex on Shyv is so meh. All-in on damage on an unreliable melee before you even know how the game's going to go, too risky for me. You fall behind, hope you can 1v1/split and the rest of their team can't kill you. You go blue smite anyway, slows don't stack. Maybe I just overrate Flash.
Your job is still to deal damage, regardless. It's just a matter of who you're fighting. Mixed %health damage is a dream situation into tanks, particularly if you've got the luxury of getting Cleaver. And you do have probably top-3 two-item damage in a 1v1 midgame.
On September 13 2015 09:10 Ketara wrote:
Why would you get visage over banshee on Shyvana BTW?
Seems like banshee on her would be pretigud. She doesn't have any built in sustain so visage isn't high value.
You're getting BotRK 9/10 games, and CDR is actually really good on her.
Locket>Maw=SV>BV
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On September 13 2015 09:06 Frolossus wrote:
2 things happen at this point
either you're far enough ahead it doesn't matter and you can 1v3 or better OR you have to go split
except shyvana is a weak split pusher in the sense that she lacks mobility and tower killing power (like a bad nasus basically) and if you're far ahead then you can win the teamfights by building tank items anyway
also it can be unreliable to try to win the game before lategame on a champ who can't gank at all early game.
I mean if the top laner is strong enough to defend with TP you don't have much you can do and it's still not that hard to gank you.
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On September 13 2015 09:15 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2015 09:06 Frolossus wrote:
2 things happen at this point
either you're far enough ahead it doesn't matter and you can 1v3 or better OR you have to go split except shyvana is a weak split pusher in the sense that she lacks mobility and tower killing power (like a bad nasus basically) and if you're far ahead then you can win the teamfights by building tank items anyway also it can be unreliable to try to win the game before lategame on a champ who can't gank at all early game. I mean if the top laner is strong enough to defend with TP you don't have much you can do and it's still not that hard to gank you.
shyv is extremely mobile wtf
she has a massive dash that can counteract some forms of CC and one of the highest movespeeds with her W on.
in fact the reasons for which you pick shyv is that she exerts tons of map pressure from running around and clearing fast with W. she also happens to be one of the hardest scaling melee characters in the game right now which makes her an exceptional duelist.
if you're far ahead you don't need any more tank items. there's this weird relationship in the game where if you have a level and item advantage and your damage > their damage you can get away on 1.5-2 tank items.
the problem with team fights at the end of the game for shyv is never going to be that you aren't tanky enough. it's that you/your team is incapable of killing their biggest damage threats before they kill yours. if this happens then you either pick better fights or lose the game.
shyv tends to be a very snowbally character. if she gets ahead you can choke out the enemy jungler and 3 hit carries. the hardest part of playing the character is knowing when to fight and how to maximize your damage.
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But...
Okay I don't want to like, make Shyvana build suggestions because I don't play her.
But in general if you aren't getting much from the Visage sustain, Locket outperforms VIsage.
Assuming you're not giving anybody else the shield or MR aura at all, Locket gives you:
745 HP
35 MR
10% CDR
While Visage gives you:
400 HP
60 MR
10% CDR
Looking at Shyvana, who gets a bunch of resistances from being a dragon lady, her EHP with these two items against magic comes out looking something like:
Locket - 5259
Visage - 5037
(This is just BS math without looking at runes or masteries or other items, I didn't go too heavily into it)
So Locket is performing slightly better against Magic, will perform blatantly better against Physical without having to do any math to show it, and can provide more defense for your team.
The Visage sustain boost has to be pretty high value in order for it to outperform, and on a champion with no built in sustain mechanics it's probably not. BotRK gives you 10% lifesteal.
Is +2% lifesteal worth the extra stuff Locket gives you?
No. No it's not.
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Full disclosure: in my original suggestion for MR builds, I forgot locket existed! Woops.
I'd still rather somebody else get it because Shyv is selfish and you're getting it third item at best, but if you must, yes, it is by far the best defensive item in the game. For everyone I can think of off the top of my head, actually. SV/Maw are your next best options assuming your top or tanky support was a nice guy and got it for you. I was just arguing against BV.
Fights with big melee dps are more complicated than who kills carries first, btw. Removing the frontline as Shyv, particularly with one of Morde/Darius/Garen/other melees on your side is a totally legit option and wins fights/objectives. Shyv is more teamfight/objective oriented than the majority of real splitpushers unless you're far ahead.
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My point is that even if somebody else has it, its self only stats outperform visage.
Not to mention if somebody else has it its probably the support and unless that support is Leona its likely you two aren't overlapping auras. It's 1100 range on the MR aura and only 600 range on the shield.
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EPT
