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[Patch 5.16] I'm the Juggernaut Patch Discussion - Page 6

Forum Index > LoL Strategy
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Certain topics are blacklisted from Patch Discussion and they include:
  • "Elo hell"
  • The Tribunal
  • Bans, either from TL.net or LoL
  • "What is a tank" (and other vague monikers)
  • Unjustified game theory / speculative discussion about the game
  • Complaints about balance and game design
DystopiaX
Profile Joined October 2010
United States16236 Posts
August 21 2015 00:03 GMT
#101
On August 21 2015 05:17 Sonnington wrote:
So Skarner is op. It's not even the fact that he's does so much more damage and he's better at ganking/fighting, which he is. It's his clear that gets me. There's no way they didn't notice how fast and how little damage Skarner takes on his first clear while testing him.

I'm still playing around with Morde. They suggest getting a relic shield first which makes sense since his laning phase is pretty bad.

honestly wouldn't be surprised if they overbuffed him so that people will play him and they plan to tune him down by 5.18
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-21 00:27:52
August 21 2015 00:26 GMT
#102
Thought I'd save people some work comparing garens.
BASE STATS: Lost 11.75hp/lvl 31.33g/lvl Gains 1ad/lvl 36 g/lvl ad 0.3 armour/lvl or 6g/lvl
Result: ++10.67g/lvl
Passive: No change
Q: Flat nerf of 1s Silence, 1s movement speed.
W: Resist buff when fully stacked until 300 bonus resists. Nearly always a buff. Tenacity removed so a nerf.
R: Straight buff against villain.

OLD GAREN E
Level 1: 60 2.1*AD
Level 3: 135 2.4*AD
Level 5: 210 2.7*AD
Level 7: 285 3.0*AD
Level 9: 360 3.3*AD

NEW GAREN E - SINGLE TARGET
Level 1: 70 1.7*AD 93 2.27*AD
Level 3: 90 1.75*AD 120 2.33*AD
Level 4: 108 2.1*AD 144 2.8*AD
Level 5: 132 2.16*AD 176 2.88*AD
Level 7: 187 2.59*AD 249 3.45*AD
Level 9: 210 2.66*AD 280 3.55*AD
Level 10: 240 3.04*AD 320 4.05*AD
Level 13: 270 3.42*AD 360 4.56*AD
Level 16: 300 3.8*AD 400 5.07*AD

As you can see its a straight nerf in any AoE situation except at level 16+ with >120AD. (50% AD-->E advantage so if you have 120 more AD new garen will E will do 50 more).
Because the laning phase and jungling both heavily use the AoE E it's a nerf for those phases of the game. In many teamfights you'll be hitting more than one target and it's a nerf for that unless you target the villain.
On a single target after level 10 you have a 75% AD-40 damage lead, after level 13 you have a 126% AD lead and after level 16 you have a 40+177% AD lead.
Parsing rough ADs around those levels as 100/150/200 you can expect about ~35 more damage after level 10, ~200 more damage after level 13 and ~400 more damage at level 16.

One issue is that assumes you hit for the full 3 seconds while the silence lasts only 1.5 seconds.
This seems just to be a nerf to garens early and midgame but better lategame although it can be hard to isolate targets and also to focus the villain.
Jungling felt a bit weak considering only average ganks and weak clearing. Laning got nerfed so his hard matchups are even harder.

My guess: Probably not worth picking anymore. rip
Kaethis
Profile Joined January 2015
Netherlands112 Posts
August 21 2015 00:30 GMT
#103
On August 21 2015 04:54 Slayer91 wrote:
First impressions on garen aren't too good. Jungle clear is barely any better and it feels like your skill points except in R don't do anything.
You gain like 30 damage (total) if you rank E
You gain 25 damage if you rank Q
neither reduce cd anymore and you don't get anymore silence duration on q and the movement increase is nerfed

BC felt weak you are too squishy even with cinderhulk bc and his ad scaling isnt really good probably steraks is better and deadmans is good

ults on villain are good and lategame your E does good damage (not tHAT much more than old E and it takes longer to be as good) but probably he's nerfed because of W and Q nerfs.


Agreed, Garen feels weaker then he used to. I don't like the whole villain mechanic because it does nothing for you for a decent chunk of the game and damage against squishies (which'll be the villain lategame) was never Garen's core problem. They even excaberated his core problems with the Q and W nerfs. If they'd have given him the jump on Q and kept everything the same it would've been great but..

Overall, I'm sad.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-21 00:37:55
August 21 2015 00:33 GMT
#104
I actually didn't think he needed any buffs, was probably an OP or strong top lane champion but I can understand why they wanted to change him, no counterplay for sure, if you were viktor good luck doing anything in the game m8 garen can just flank your team go on you and you're dun m8. You can't even kill him because he's going to be taking 30% reduced damage for the whole duration that he can one shot you in while gutting your damage with silence.

From a gameplay point of view the changes are probably fine but they just nerfed his early and midgame so much for no good reason I would say. It's bad enough when somebody picks rumble or gnar and you can't get on them for the entire game, at least before at level 13 you had 4.5 s move boost and 2.5 s silence and could start to come back against many ranged champs.
Caiada
Profile Joined January 2015
United States3052 Posts
August 21 2015 00:37 GMT
#105
They were way too conservative on his spin numbers. The single-target stuff is just not reliable at all for the fights he is taking at any point in the game. Worse though, it just doesn't feel Garen-y, and it's nerfed for what *was* fun, just sitting in their team or a minion wave spinning in their faces.

I hope they make the spin a lot more ridiculous in 5.17.
XDG Mata
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
August 21 2015 00:39 GMT
#106
From a game design perspective I think it's dumb taking away from Q and W 2 abilities which already didn't have a great identity and adding it to the E, feels like he's all E R top heavy if you know what I mean.
2 ability champ doesn't feel good conceptually. He was well rounded with great strength in all 5 slots before.
Kaethis
Profile Joined January 2015
Netherlands112 Posts
August 21 2015 00:49 GMT
#107
I had hoped that in their rework they would've focused more on his Q/W and passive. I understand that a champion with a silence who can oneshot you is dumb and they wanted to move away from that, but he could be played as a kind of harrier champion, weaving in and out of fights untill you're weak enough to kill. He'd probably need another cleanse for that to happen though, and from reading the lol forums thread on his rework apparantly his redesigners thought Garen was unpeelable (??). Often didn't work but it's an interesting niche that right now is kind of solely occupied by Nidalee, and I wouldn't call that a piece of great design.

Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
August 21 2015 01:18 GMT
#108
Teut your garen posts are so sexy.

Can I be your little sister forever?
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Caiada
Profile Joined January 2015
United States3052 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-21 01:28:36
August 21 2015 01:28 GMT
#109
I think it's fine to have Q/W be simple and not that unique, as long there are suitably fun/interesting things in the rest of the kit. Other decently well designed champs are already kinda like this. I think Darius is/was great and his W is basically just an AA reset with a slow.

It's a little too cautious to think that every skill needs to be a key piece of champion identity when, as long as you have cool shit like Garen's E/R, the rest can just work in service to those.

That being said, W is too boring for me. But it was always a bit too boring for me, so nothing new there.
XDG Mata
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-21 02:02:48
August 21 2015 01:59 GMT
#110
On August 21 2015 10:18 Ketara wrote:
Teut your garen posts are so sexy.

Can I be your little sister forever?


I can't accept given that I'd get involved with some very jealous Thai/farang girls.

Jax with steraks seems real good. Pretty much just 1v5'd with trinity/steraks/FoTM/CDR boots/hexdrinker
3400 hp+340 FoTM+1020 Steraks shield+hex shield and like +60 base damage which is like 300+trinity procs
R gives so much resists too like +100/+80 or something stupid

jax with 15k EHP is lols
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
August 21 2015 02:28 GMT
#111
I want Teut to make a Garen guide.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Sonnington
Profile Joined December 2012
United States1107 Posts
August 21 2015 04:26 GMT
#112
So I've played a few games as Morde "ADC." First game was with Sona. We got shit on early then eventually came back during team fights. Second game was with a Garen, we got less shit on and carried moderately hard. Third game I had a Volibear support and we absolutely dumped on the lane. You really need a tanky/initiation support. Which should be fairly obvious, but when you get it, it's a really potent combination.

It makes me wonder what kind of champ select mind games people will come up with. I really don't like having him in the bot lane.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
August 21 2015 04:42 GMT
#113
Lulu counters Morde pretty hard, she's picked plenty now but probably gonna get picked even more
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
gobbledydook
Profile Joined October 2012
Australia2603 Posts
August 21 2015 05:02 GMT
#114
How many of the damage/hp items should i buy on Renekton?

There's black cleaver, titanic hydra and sterak's gage, and I am not sure how many of them is good enough damage.
I am a dirty Protoss bullshit abuser
Caiada
Profile Joined January 2015
United States3052 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-21 05:22:11
August 21 2015 05:19 GMT
#115
Counter to Morde? Pick Vayne and harass him constantly while he pushes, get a gank. You now win the game because you're a Vayne with a pretty free lane. He's honestly not good enough to be worth countering any more than that. If Q weren't overtuned, I don't think he'd be popular. He'd probably be good enough to consider, especially in fast push, but certainly not popular.

On August 21 2015 14:02 gobbledydook wrote:
How many of the damage/hp items should i buy on Renekton?

There's black cleaver, titanic hydra and sterak's gage, and I am not sure how many of them is good enough damage.


Depends on the game and your comp more than anything. I'd say at least Titanic/Cleaver. They're very efficient together. I'm not sure his base AD and base AD scaling is enough to justify Sterak's cost though.
XDG Mata
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-21 05:49:13
August 21 2015 05:46 GMT
#116
Doesn't Renekton want to be buying resists over HP?

If you want somebody who likes damage+HP, seems like Jax is your man. Or Rammus. Or Shyvana maybe?
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
IamPryda
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1186 Posts
August 21 2015 05:47 GMT
#117
On August 21 2015 05:47 NeoIllusions wrote:
Played new Garen in Top vs Riven (enemy Lee Jungle) and felt rather underwhelming. Yes, E does more damage but I used Q a lot more as a "poke" and I could really tell that Riven was far more mobile due to the silence nerf. meh

General thoughts about the new items? More specifically, I want to know what champion(s) you guys think are good with Deadman's Plate, Sterak's Gage, Titanic Hydra.

Dead man plate on Olaf,Mundo,vi, and singed all have been working out pretty well for me. Singed is an absolute terror with it but Olaf fits into his build path better
Moar banelings less qq
gobbledydook
Profile Joined October 2012
Australia2603 Posts
August 21 2015 06:21 GMT
#118
On August 21 2015 14:46 Ketara wrote:
Doesn't Renekton want to be buying resists over HP?

If you want somebody who likes damage+HP, seems like Jax is your man. Or Rammus. Or Shyvana maybe?

What about a build that looks like titanic hydra/cleaver/visage/dead man's plate/guardian angel? Sounds like enough resists for everything and enough hp to get good hydra procs...
I am a dirty Protoss bullshit abuser
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
August 21 2015 06:59 GMT
#119
On August 21 2015 14:02 gobbledydook wrote:
How many of the damage/hp items should i buy on Renekton?

There's black cleaver, titanic hydra and sterak's gage, and I am not sure how many of them is good enough damage.

I think all three of those items are great on Renek. Round off your six items with Deadman's and Banshee's/Visage.

I build my bruisers with more offensive than defensive, especially in solo queue where you can't always trust your team to do damage. In 5s, I would be ok building full tank if our comp called for it (or if you're playing something like Top Maokai). If you find three off items is too many, I'd probably drop Sterak's Gage for another resist item.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
August 21 2015 07:01 GMT
#120
Prob wouldn't get GA on Renek. You can still get ye olde sunfire.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
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