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On August 21 2015 05:17 Sonnington wrote:
So Skarner is op. It's not even the fact that he's does so much more damage and he's better at ganking/fighting, which he is. It's his clear that gets me. There's no way they didn't notice how fast and how little damage Skarner takes on his first clear while testing him.
I'm still playing around with Morde. They suggest getting a relic shield first which makes sense since his laning phase is pretty bad.
honestly wouldn't be surprised if they overbuffed him so that people will play him and they plan to tune him down by 5.18
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Thought I'd save people some work comparing garens.
BASE STATS: Lost 11.75hp/lvl 31.33g/lvl Gains 1ad/lvl 36 g/lvl ad 0.3 armour/lvl or 6g/lvl
Result: ++10.67g/lvl
Passive: No change
Q: Flat nerf of 1s Silence, 1s movement speed.
W: Resist buff when fully stacked until 300 bonus resists. Nearly always a buff. Tenacity removed so a nerf.
R: Straight buff against villain.
OLD GAREN E
Level 1: 60 2.1*AD
Level 3: 135 2.4*AD
Level 5: 210 2.7*AD
Level 7: 285 3.0*AD
Level 9: 360 3.3*AD
NEW GAREN E - SINGLE TARGET
Level 1: 70 1.7*AD 93 2.27*AD
Level 3: 90 1.75*AD 120 2.33*AD
Level 4: 108 2.1*AD 144 2.8*AD
Level 5: 132 2.16*AD 176 2.88*AD
Level 7: 187 2.59*AD 249 3.45*AD
Level 9: 210 2.66*AD 280 3.55*AD
Level 10: 240 3.04*AD 320 4.05*AD
Level 13: 270 3.42*AD 360 4.56*AD
Level 16: 300 3.8*AD 400 5.07*AD
As you can see its a straight nerf in any AoE situation except at level 16+ with >120AD. (50% AD-->E advantage so if you have 120 more AD new garen will E will do 50 more).
Because the laning phase and jungling both heavily use the AoE E it's a nerf for those phases of the game. In many teamfights you'll be hitting more than one target and it's a nerf for that unless you target the villain.
On a single target after level 10 you have a 75% AD-40 damage lead, after level 13 you have a 126% AD lead and after level 16 you have a 40+177% AD lead.
Parsing rough ADs around those levels as 100/150/200 you can expect about ~35 more damage after level 10, ~200 more damage after level 13 and ~400 more damage at level 16.
One issue is that assumes you hit for the full 3 seconds while the silence lasts only 1.5 seconds.
This seems just to be a nerf to garens early and midgame but better lategame although it can be hard to isolate targets and also to focus the villain.
Jungling felt a bit weak considering only average ganks and weak clearing. Laning got nerfed so his hard matchups are even harder.
My guess: Probably not worth picking anymore. rip
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On August 21 2015 04:54 Slayer91 wrote:
First impressions on garen aren't too good. Jungle clear is barely any better and it feels like your skill points except in R don't do anything.
You gain like 30 damage (total) if you rank E
You gain 25 damage if you rank Q
neither reduce cd anymore and you don't get anymore silence duration on q and the movement increase is nerfed
BC felt weak you are too squishy even with cinderhulk bc and his ad scaling isnt really good probably steraks is better and deadmans is good
ults on villain are good and lategame your E does good damage (not tHAT much more than old E and it takes longer to be as good) but probably he's nerfed because of W and Q nerfs.
Agreed, Garen feels weaker then he used to. I don't like the whole villain mechanic because it does nothing for you for a decent chunk of the game and damage against squishies (which'll be the villain lategame) was never Garen's core problem. They even excaberated his core problems with the Q and W nerfs. If they'd have given him the jump on Q and kept everything the same it would've been great but..
Overall, I'm sad.
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I actually didn't think he needed any buffs, was probably an OP or strong top lane champion but I can understand why they wanted to change him, no counterplay for sure, if you were viktor good luck doing anything in the game m8 garen can just flank your team go on you and you're dun m8. You can't even kill him because he's going to be taking 30% reduced damage for the whole duration that he can one shot you in while gutting your damage with silence.
From a gameplay point of view the changes are probably fine but they just nerfed his early and midgame so much for no good reason I would say. It's bad enough when somebody picks rumble or gnar and you can't get on them for the entire game, at least before at level 13 you had 4.5 s move boost and 2.5 s silence and could start to come back against many ranged champs.
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They were way too conservative on his spin numbers. The single-target stuff is just not reliable at all for the fights he is taking at any point in the game. Worse though, it just doesn't feel Garen-y, and it's nerfed for what *was* fun, just sitting in their team or a minion wave spinning in their faces.
I hope they make the spin a lot more ridiculous in 5.17.
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From a game design perspective I think it's dumb taking away from Q and W 2 abilities which already didn't have a great identity and adding it to the E, feels like he's all E R top heavy if you know what I mean.
2 ability champ doesn't feel good conceptually. He was well rounded with great strength in all 5 slots before.
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I had hoped that in their rework they would've focused more on his Q/W and passive. I understand that a champion with a silence who can oneshot you is dumb and they wanted to move away from that, but he could be played as a kind of harrier champion, weaving in and out of fights untill you're weak enough to kill. He'd probably need another cleanse for that to happen though, and from reading the lol forums thread on his rework apparantly his redesigners thought Garen was unpeelable (??). Often didn't work but it's an interesting niche that right now is kind of solely occupied by Nidalee, and I wouldn't call that a piece of great design.
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Teut your garen posts are so sexy.
Can I be your little sister forever?
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I think it's fine to have Q/W be simple and not that unique, as long there are suitably fun/interesting things in the rest of the kit. Other decently well designed champs are already kinda like this. I think Darius is/was great and his W is basically just an AA reset with a slow.
It's a little too cautious to think that every skill needs to be a key piece of champion identity when, as long as you have cool shit like Garen's E/R, the rest can just work in service to those.
That being said, W is too boring for me. But it was always a bit too boring for me, so nothing new there.
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On August 21 2015 10:18 Ketara wrote:
Teut your garen posts are so sexy.
Can I be your little sister forever?
I can't accept given that I'd get involved with some very jealous Thai/farang girls.
Jax with steraks seems real good. Pretty much just 1v5'd with trinity/steraks/FoTM/CDR boots/hexdrinker
3400 hp+340 FoTM+1020 Steraks shield+hex shield and like +60 base damage which is like 300+trinity procs
R gives so much resists too like +100/+80 or something stupid
jax with 15k EHP is lols
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I want Teut to make a Garen guide.
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So I've played a few games as Morde "ADC." First game was with Sona. We got shit on early then eventually came back during team fights. Second game was with a Garen, we got less shit on and carried moderately hard. Third game I had a Volibear support and we absolutely dumped on the lane. You really need a tanky/initiation support. Which should be fairly obvious, but when you get it, it's a really potent combination.
It makes me wonder what kind of champ select mind games people will come up with. I really don't like having him in the bot lane.
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Lulu counters Morde pretty hard, she's picked plenty now but probably gonna get picked even more
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How many of the damage/hp items should i buy on Renekton?
There's black cleaver, titanic hydra and sterak's gage, and I am not sure how many of them is good enough damage.
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Counter to Morde? Pick Vayne and harass him constantly while he pushes, get a gank. You now win the game because you're a Vayne with a pretty free lane. He's honestly not good enough to be worth countering any more than that. If Q weren't overtuned, I don't think he'd be popular. He'd probably be good enough to consider, especially in fast push, but certainly not popular.
On August 21 2015 14:02 gobbledydook wrote:
How many of the damage/hp items should i buy on Renekton?
There's black cleaver, titanic hydra and sterak's gage, and I am not sure how many of them is good enough damage.
Depends on the game and your comp more than anything. I'd say at least Titanic/Cleaver. They're very efficient together. I'm not sure his base AD and base AD scaling is enough to justify Sterak's cost though.
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Doesn't Renekton want to be buying resists over HP?
If you want somebody who likes damage+HP, seems like Jax is your man. Or Rammus. Or Shyvana maybe?
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On August 21 2015 05:47 NeoIllusions wrote:
Played new Garen in Top vs Riven (enemy Lee Jungle) and felt rather underwhelming. Yes, E does more damage but I used Q a lot more as a "poke" and I could really tell that Riven was far more mobile due to the silence nerf. meh
General thoughts about the new items? More specifically, I want to know what champion(s) you guys think are good with Deadman's Plate, Sterak's Gage, Titanic Hydra.
Dead man plate on Olaf,Mundo,vi, and singed all have been working out pretty well for me. Singed is an absolute terror with it but Olaf fits into his build path better
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On August 21 2015 14:46 Ketara wrote:
Doesn't Renekton want to be buying resists over HP?
If you want somebody who likes damage+HP, seems like Jax is your man. Or Rammus. Or Shyvana maybe?
What about a build that looks like titanic hydra/cleaver/visage/dead man's plate/guardian angel? Sounds like enough resists for everything and enough hp to get good hydra procs...
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United States37500 Posts
On August 21 2015 14:02 gobbledydook wrote:
How many of the damage/hp items should i buy on Renekton?
There's black cleaver, titanic hydra and sterak's gage, and I am not sure how many of them is good enough damage.
I think all three of those items are great on Renek. Round off your six items with Deadman's and Banshee's/Visage.
I build my bruisers with more offensive than defensive, especially in solo queue where you can't always trust your team to do damage. In 5s, I would be ok building full tank if our comp called for it (or if you're playing something like Top Maokai). If you find three off items is too many, I'd probably drop Sterak's Gage for another resist item.
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Prob wouldn't get GA on Renek. You can still get ye olde sunfire.
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EPT
