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On August 26 2015 05:33 Fildun wrote:
I hope you do realize that you'll never get a fully charged DMP auto off in lane? As first item Sunfire is just better (we already gave all the reasoning), I don't really see what point you're trying to make here. In a hypothetical 6 item endgame build it's probably better, but that's not what League is about.
You do realize that components and a pickaxe is better than sunfire so there is literally no reason to complete it. Those items build into better lategame items with zero disadvantage at any point.
So if the other build is better early and better late it's just plain better.
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If you're building for lane... why Sunfire? There are items with more efficient stats, better passives and actives and that transition better into builds that are a lot more useful this patch.
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On August 26 2015 05:42 Caiada wrote:
If you're building for lane... why Sunfire? There are items with more efficient stats, better passives and actives and that transition better into builds that are a lot more useful this patch.
like what
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Leaning towards Cleaver or Titanic. Cleaver for the movespeed and because it's useful throughout the game because CDR/Pen. Titanic for more damage that scales better, waveclear you don't really need, AA reset of some marginal utility.
I think I would only go Sunfire if there were a risk I would lose all-ins vs some strong AD top. Rengar, maybe Gnar, similar shit. I rush Cleaver on him since I started actually playing him, so idk who else. I think it's pretty clearly a decent first item, but it's a lot of wasted gold value once that point is done with.
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If you're worried about an AD top why not components for DMP and pickaxe then finish the DMP and turn the pickaxe into something useful?
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Should get some actual math analysis of what you get at different gold levels building what into this discussion.
Gou your algebra post was hard to read. Let's say our Garen is at 200 armor and the enemy ADC has IE and PD so crits are 75% of his damage, and also has LW. How much armor is the crit passive worth?
Also how much is it worth at 300 armor?
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This is easier:
ADC damage is 0.55*2.5+0.45 so 1.825 (xadxattack speed)
ADC damage with crit passive is 0.55*2.5*0.9+0.45 so 1.6875
Armourpen: .94*0.65=61.1% of armour is counted
200-->122.2
300-->183.3
Damage base: 1.825/2.222 or 2.833=0.821 or 0.644
Damage crit passive: 1.6875/2.222 or 1.6875/2.833=0.759 or 0.596
Result
@200 armour crit passive reduces damage taken by 7.5%
@300 armour crit passive reduces damage taken by 7.5%
standard
comparison to armour:
1.6875/2.222=1.825/x
x=2.4/-->1.4/0.611=2.29 or 229 armour
1.6875/2.833=1.825/x
x=3.06-->2.06/0.611=3.37 or 337 total armour
Result
@200 armour Randuins passive is as good as 29 armour
@300 armour Randuins passive is as good as 37 armour
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That's not telling us how much armor that 8% is equivalent to though.
Which would tell us if its a buff or nerf vs old randuins.
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Comparison vs old:
+150 gold
-10 armour (-200 gold)
-100 hp (-267 gold)
mew Randuins passive has to be worth 317 gold for it to be cost effective compared to old Randuins.
It easily reaches that after adc has IE PD LW but that's the best case scenario since not everyone who does physical damage has lw and 55% crit.
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Vest/Belt/Pickaxe is 2625. You get 25 AD/380 health/40 armor.
Sunfire is 2600. You get 450 health/45armor and the passive. I usually do 9 as first item time. You can assume faster if you get a kill, slower if you're denied. We'll just assume even. At level 9, the passive is 34 damage per second.
Cleaver's another option, though you will finish it 400 gold later. 40 AD/400 health, 20% CDR, 20 movespeed when you're spinning on guys or spinning away through a wave if you have to. It's a little less than boots 1 of value, so if you wanted to really reach on your approximate gold values, you could add boots to the above two combos.
Titanic is another 300 gold on top of cleaver. 400 health/50 AD/100% health regen and the passive/active. Too lazy to look up exact health values; let's assume 1700. I think that's close. Passive adds an additional 17 damage per AA. Pretty garbage. Active is better; it adds 210. About 7 seconds of Sunfire damage. Of course, if you're going Sunfire, you've got 700 gold to put into stats. Best case is like 20 AD if you go two longswords. More realistic is 760g for Ruby/Long Sword to go into Cleaver. They're close enough, literally a few cs.
Garen's full AD Ratio is 302.5% at level 9. The component combo that was brought up is 25AD over sunfire for the same cost. Assuming you get just the Q AA off and immediately spin on top of him, that's 76 damage. You'll get >3 ticks if you get the full spin off, which likely puts Sunfire marginally ahead in an all-in scenario in addition to the 5 armor. They're probably a lot closer than they should be, given that Sunfire is actually a finished item and falls off heavily. If you AA-QAA, you apply more damage more quickly with the component combo. In a 1v1, at least. There are probably scenarios where the AoE of Sunfire is more important. Pulls ahead on two targets. Dragon fights, big TP skirmishes, and such.
I'm getting tired of math so quickie assessment of other options:
Cleaver is 15 AD more and is probably more damage than the above because of that shred. Really ahead if that 1.6 seconds off Q lets you get one more off. Weaker 1v1s/vs high physical damage.
Titanic is comparable amounts of AD to Cleaver per gold spent, same amount of health, so uh. Close enough? If you're not valuing CDR highly, Titanic is almost certainly better. The shred would need to add ~230 damage to make up for the Titanic AA. Maybe it does? You would get both anyway, it's a question of when/vs who.
Disclaimer: I'm tired so the math probably sucks. I also did not account for situational 1 on 1 spin damage increase or the 100 range on Sunfire possibly getting you an additional tick.
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Scenarios where you are chasing the target waiting for next QE is when sunfire does a lot of damage.
These situations happen more frequently than you think but may not justify sunfire unless its highly likely.
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On August 26 2015 09:15 Slayer91 wrote:
Comparison vs old:
+150 gold
-10 armour (-200 gold)
-100 hp (-267 gold)
mew Randuins passive has to be worth 317 gold for it to be cost effective compared to old Randuins.
It easily reaches that after adc has IE PD LW but that's the best case scenario since not everyone who does physical damage has lw and 55% crit.
But that was my original statement. If somebody is building crit randuins was buffed, not nerfed.
What if the ADC is only half of the incoming damage you're taking, is it still a buff?
Could we say that if 2 people on the enemy team have crit then randuins is super valuable?
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On August 26 2015 09:16 Slayer91 wrote:
Scenarios where you are chasing the target waiting for next QE is when sunfire does a lot of damage.
These situations happen more frequently than you think but may not justify sunfire unless its highly likely.
Yeah, the 100 range on Sunfire is a bit difficult to judge in those cases. Probably better in scenarios where you're just chasing the guy off the wave over and over, which happened to me a lot with the poor gap closer thing.
Other things I didn't mention:
The moment you hit 10, you get higher potential spin damage, slightly increasing the value of AD/the value of Cleaver shred/the amount of times you get 7 ticks because they happen faster.
Sterak's. It's 22 AD and 500 health for the same cost as Sunfire, plus a sizable shield. But they probably just back off in the 1v1. If you flash on them, you have a very efficient bundle of stats with which to kill them, and the shield probably blocks a tower shot often enough to consider.
DMP. Feels like a bad first item if you're playing to kill people. I always want to kill people as Garen :V
Oh and the component build gets you DMP first finished item and gets you into Titanic next easily. Titanic/DMP is almost certainly better at that point in the game than Sunfire/anything.
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New morde is such an enigma.I still have no clue what his power level is.Obviously he is niche so can't just try to put him in any teamcomp but it just seems so random.Leaning more towards gimick that works cuz people are retarded though.
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With IE and PD the damage passive decreases damage by about 7.5% (0.9246575342465753 is the multiplier)
In order to hit that multiplier we need to increase armor for an 8.1% reduction (1/x)
Here is our formula
v/(1-R)+ .0v*Armor = Extra
v=8.1 (so .0v = .081)
Armor = 200
1-R = .611
Base Portion:
8.1/.611 = 13.2
Armor Portion:
.081 x 200 = 16.2
.081 x 300 = 24.3
So at 200 armor the passive is worth 29.4 armor vs an ADC's auto attacks only
At 300 armor we do the same thing but we get 37.5 armor since the armor portion is larger.
We can figure an additional BC fully stacked into that which changes the base portion to 8.1/.4277 which adds 5.73 armor onto the totals for both. So about 35 and 43 armor respectively
With no penetration we subtract 5.1 armor from each. So about 24 and 32 armor respectively
Edit: If we figured that you also have the defensive mastery crit reduction this changes things slightly but not enough to matter. The damage reduction multiplier becomes 0.9266666666666667 and so the 1/x reduction is 7.9% So the final armor values are reduced by about 3% in all cases. A total of 1.1 armor for the full BC stacked 300 armor comparison.
Vs Ashe these numbers are a lot higher of course since she always crits. Its worth 36.6 armor at 200 armor and 46.6 at 300 (with just LW) ed: With full BC stacks its worth 43/53 armor at 200/300 base armor! Get fucked Ashe!
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On August 26 2015 09:33 nafta wrote:
New morde is such an enigma.I still have no clue what his power level is.Obviously he is niche so can't just try to put him in any teamcomp but it just seems so random.Leaning more towards gimick that works cuz people are retarded though.
I think you need a super engage comp. He already can't do too much to tanks (3rd q is still less damage than an ADC) and needs his ghost to be effective. You probably want like a full engage team with olaf or something to get your ghost off and let you get in range of important targets. If your team gets zoned by tanks what can you do lol
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So we can say that the passive is roughly worth 30 armor against the ADC, which is worth roughly 600 gold, so if the ADC is half of the incoming damage on you it's about equivalent cost effectiveness to old Randuins.
Which means if more than one person on the enemy team has crit, or if it's a team where the ADC is the majority of their damage, or if the enemy team has a Zekes, then Randuins is probably super value.
Those aren't exact figures mind, just reasonable ballparks.
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On August 26 2015 09:40 Ketara wrote:
So we can say that the passive is roughly worth 30 armor against the ADC, which is worth roughly 600 gold, so if the ADC is half of the incoming damage on you it's about equivalent cost effectiveness to old Randuins.
Which means if more than one person on the enemy team has crit, or if it's a team where the ADC is the majority of their damage, or if the enemy team has a Zekes, then Randuins is probably super value.
Those aren't exact figures mind, just reasonable ballparks.
Or Ashe. Always build vs Ashe.
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Indeed. Ashe Yasuobro really fucking buy that Randuins.
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EPT
