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On August 25 2015 22:38 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2015 22:25 Goumindong wrote:On August 25 2015 20:51 Slayer91 wrote:
thing is garen was almost certainly op before and nobody realized it, they are giving us a nerfed garen (though probably slightly stronger later) and everyones like wow so strong
thats my theory, I could be wrong, DMP is pretty good on garen. The new items certainly add a lot to his power. It's much easier to build the kind of mixed defense/damage that garen wants. But he was still pretty strong in the current meta. Nah, not really. He used to be able to do a really good defense/damage build as well.
Well no. He could build offensive and defensive items but those are less efficient than hybrid items. And there were only two, maybe three, decent hybrid items for him. One of which was newish (Cleaver, Maw, BT). This means that, by necessity he will or can have more raw stats after a set amount of gold.
Now there are 4+ good hybrid items. And more than one hybrid item if the enemy doesn't have a strong Magic damage presence.
DMP Is really good on him but so is titanic (and Steraks)
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On August 25 2015 22:45 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2015 22:38 Fildun wrote:On August 25 2015 22:25 Goumindong wrote:On August 25 2015 20:51 Slayer91 wrote:
thing is garen was almost certainly op before and nobody realized it, they are giving us a nerfed garen (though probably slightly stronger later) and everyones like wow so strong
thats my theory, I could be wrong, DMP is pretty good on garen. The new items certainly add a lot to his power. It's much easier to build the kind of mixed defense/damage that garen wants. But he was still pretty strong in the current meta. Nah, not really. He used to be able to do a really good defense/damage build as well. Well no. He could build offensive and defensive items but those are less efficient than hybrid items. And there were only two, maybe three, decent hybrid items for him. One of which was newish (Cleaver, Maw, BT). This means that, by necessity he will or can have more raw stats after a set amount of gold. Now there are 4+ good hybrid items. And more than one hybrid item if the enemy doesn't have a strong Magic damage presence. DMP Is really good on him but so is titanic (and Steraks)
What build do you go then? Old build used to be Sunfire/Randuins/Maw/Boots/Thornmail/LW, which gives a lot of damage and tankyness. In the new build you replace Randuins with DMP, which is basically the same except you get random mobies. Besides that I don't see how any of the new items are better than the old ones so please explain all these claims you make.
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There's probably something better than sunfire on garen. Not like he needs waveclear.
Also why LW over BC?
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On August 25 2015 22:57 Ketara wrote:
There's probably something better than sunfire on garen. Not like he needs waveclear.
Also why LW over BC?
It's cheaper and gives more damage.
Sunfire really helps for trading in lane though plus the stats are really good vs AD lanes. I guess you could replace it with Titanic in your full build but as first item vs AD I'd still build it.
Edit:
On August 25 2015 23:01 Prog wrote:
I'd go DMP over Sunfire (keep Randuins) and BC over LW. With the way the new spin ticks more frequently lategame BC is better.
With DMP over Sunfire I find that you lack damage in the early-midgame.
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I'd go DMP over Sunfire (keep Randuins) and BC over LW. With the way the new spin ticks more frequently lategame BC is better.
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The new randuins anti crit passive is kinda huge.
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Sunfire was cheap and added some dps, which is always good (long cooldowns and he doesn't exactly have good damage or mobility when they're down).
Is it still worth it to build thornmail? For raw armour I assume it's best in slot since Randuin's is down to 60 and FH to 70 iirc, but it's not like the return damage is great now.
Another random question, can't test now: can he still go through minions during E? Tooltip isn't clear if they removed the MS penalty while he does it, or if they removed it altogether.
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Pretty sure if you're against somebody building crit that randuins was buffed, not nerfed.
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On August 25 2015 23:05 Ketara wrote:
The new randuins anti crit passive is kinda huge.
It's really not though. It reduces crits by 10%, so when an ADC has about 50% crit it reduces the damage done by the ADC by about 5%.
Randuins gives 400 HP and 60 armor, DMP gives 600 HP and 50 armor. The stats (in terms of EHP) favour DMP slightly, also because it's better against magic damage.
In terms of passive/actives you have a 35% slow for 4 seconds on a long cooldown plus a 5% damage reduction vs ADC's versus a free mobies, some damage plus a 75% slow for 1 second on first hit.
DMP is just straight better imo.
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On August 25 2015 23:21 nafta wrote:
Randuins is better on engage tanks and dmp is better on bruisers.
Well yes, but I was talking about Garen here. Obviously on stuff like Gragas/Sejuani Randuins is better.
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Randuins is better on engage tanks and dmp is better on bruisers.
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On August 25 2015 23:17 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2015 23:05 Ketara wrote:
The new randuins anti crit passive is kinda huge. It's really not though. It reduces crits by 10%, so when an ADC has about 50% crit it reduces the damage done by the ADC by about 5%. Randuins gives 400 HP and 60 armor, DMP gives 600 HP and 50 armor. The stats (in terms of EHP) favour DMP slightly, also because it's better against magic damage. In terms of passive/actives you have a 35% slow for 4 seconds on a long cooldown plus a 5% damage reduction vs ADC's versus a free mobies, some damage plus a 75% slow for 1 second on first hit. DMP is just straight better imo. Edit: Show nested quote +On August 25 2015 23:21 nafta wrote:
Randuins is better on engage tanks and dmp is better on bruisers. Well yes, but I was talking about Garen here. Obviously on stuff like Gragas/Sejuani Randuins is better.
Also it kind of screams anti-Zeke's-item. Zeke's is stupidly strong lol.
DMP (and Olaf coming back a bit) is kind of forcing people to draft extra hard CC.
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On August 25 2015 23:17 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2015 23:05 Ketara wrote:
The new randuins anti crit passive is kinda huge. It's really not though. It reduces crits by 10%, so when an ADC has about 50% crit it reduces the damage done by the ADC by about 5%. Randuins gives 400 HP and 60 armor, DMP gives 600 HP and 50 armor. The stats (in terms of EHP) favour DMP slightly, also because it's better against magic damage. In terms of passive/actives you have a 35% slow for 4 seconds on a long cooldown plus a 5% damage reduction vs ADC's versus a free mobies, some damage plus a 75% slow for 1 second on first hit. DMP is just straight better imo. Edit: Show nested quote +On August 25 2015 23:21 nafta wrote:
Randuins is better on engage tanks and dmp is better on bruisers. Well yes, but I was talking about Garen here. Obviously on stuff like Gragas/Sejuani Randuins is better.
I'm not trying to compare the two items. But do you realize how much armor you'd need to reduce the adcs damage by 5%?
Not to mention its more than that. If 50% of their attacks are crits and the crits are doing 200% damage, then 66% of their damage is crit damage and the crit reduction is reducing their overall damage by 6.6%.
Only its even more than that because of the IE passive and things like Zekes and whatever. It's often more like a 7-8% damage reduction which is worth a lot of armor.
I'm too sick to do better math than that, I'm sure somebody else can help me out.
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On August 25 2015 22:55 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2015 22:45 Goumindong wrote:On August 25 2015 22:38 Fildun wrote:On August 25 2015 22:25 Goumindong wrote:On August 25 2015 20:51 Slayer91 wrote:
thing is garen was almost certainly op before and nobody realized it, they are giving us a nerfed garen (though probably slightly stronger later) and everyones like wow so strong
thats my theory, I could be wrong, DMP is pretty good on garen. The new items certainly add a lot to his power. It's much easier to build the kind of mixed defense/damage that garen wants. But he was still pretty strong in the current meta. Nah, not really. He used to be able to do a really good defense/damage build as well. Well no. He could build offensive and defensive items but those are less efficient than hybrid items. And there were only two, maybe three, decent hybrid items for him. One of which was newish (Cleaver, Maw, BT). This means that, by necessity he will or can have more raw stats after a set amount of gold. Now there are 4+ good hybrid items. And more than one hybrid item if the enemy doesn't have a strong Magic damage presence. DMP Is really good on him but so is titanic (and Steraks) What build do you go then? Old build used to be Sunfire/Randuins/Maw/Boots/Thornmail/LW, which gives a lot of damage and tankyness. In the new build you replace Randuins with DMP, which is basically the same except you get random mobies. Besides that I don't see how any of the new items are better than the old ones so please explain all these claims you make.
Yea see this build has three full tank items, one hybrid, and one pure damage. The fact that you have sunfire in there when garen is neither a split pusher nor has any lack of wave clear is really telling for his weak itemization options before the last patch.
You can go cleaver, maw, DMP, titanic, randuins, boots and have more tank, more damage, and more utility. If you need more of a certain defense you can drop one of the offensive mix for another pure defensive item. So on so forth.
So you spin through the front line, stacking BC for your allies. Then DMP auto, q, titanic, (ult if necessary) a squishy and you've won the fight because you've done 1500 raw damage in the space of basically one auto attack not including your ult.
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On August 25 2015 23:37 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2015 23:17 Fildun wrote:On August 25 2015 23:05 Ketara wrote:
The new randuins anti crit passive is kinda huge. It's really not though. It reduces crits by 10%, so when an ADC has about 50% crit it reduces the damage done by the ADC by about 5%. Randuins gives 400 HP and 60 armor, DMP gives 600 HP and 50 armor. The stats (in terms of EHP) favour DMP slightly, also because it's better against magic damage. In terms of passive/actives you have a 35% slow for 4 seconds on a long cooldown plus a 5% damage reduction vs ADC's versus a free mobies, some damage plus a 75% slow for 1 second on first hit. DMP is just straight better imo. Edit: On August 25 2015 23:21 nafta wrote:
Randuins is better on engage tanks and dmp is better on bruisers. Well yes, but I was talking about Garen here. Obviously on stuff like Gragas/Sejuani Randuins is better. I'm not trying to compare the two items. But do you realize how much armor you'd need to reduce the adcs damage by 5% I'm too sick to do better math than that, I'm sure somebody else can help me out.
About 10 armor going from 90 to 100. Going from 190 armor to 210 is a 6.8% reduction. Doing the algebra it's clear its 5 + 5 armor/100 you already have to get 5% more DR than you already have.
Its slightly more than that if they have LW or an ally stacking BC but not ever quite double even with both and BC fully stacked. If they have flat pen figure as if your armor is already reduced which makes it easier.
Edit: unless I did something wrong it should be about 8+5 per 100 with LW and 10+5 per 100 with BC as well.
Edit2: so I am on a phone excuse my ugly algebra.
We solve 1.0v*(100+(1-R)*Armor)= 100+(1-R)*(Armor+Extra)
Where armor is what we already have, v is the % increase we want to figure for, r is the enemies % pen, and extra is the thing we are solving for.
So 100+v + 1.0v(1-R)* Armor = 100+(1-R)*(Armor+Extra)
v + 1.0v(1-R)* Armor = (1-R)*(Armor+Extra)
v/(1-R) + 1.0v* Armor = (Armor+Extra)
v/(1-R)+ .0v*Armor = Extra
So for 5% it's 5 divided by the armor reduction plus 5 per 100 base. For a 10% reduction same deal but now it's 10+10 per 100
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I don't really see a space for sunfire anymore outside of pure tanks in rare scenarios. The mobility of DMP and two decent second and third armor items in Randuin's and Thornmail respectively seem to replace it on most.
I think Randuin's passive is a bit undertuned though. Looks barely better on EHP than DMP and only versus high-crit targets with a lot of pen. Not remotely worth it unless you've already built DMP.
Titanic being a proper AA reset and scaling significantly off of health is a big deal too. Probably the item I underrated most, after playing with it. Darius with two quick AA resets is a lot of quick damage in a more usable AoE than I expected.
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Titanic does not feel great on Garen though, simply because you can't use it while spinning.
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On August 26 2015 00:06 Prog wrote:
Titanic does not feel great on Garen though, simply because you can't use it while spinning.
Use it right after you q for even more "f you" damage on your instant damage.
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Coming back after quite some time. How are some of my old faves doing? Namely: Yi, Kha, Riven, Teemo, Cait, Elise, Zac, Soraka?
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United States15536 Posts
On August 26 2015 00:22 Requizen wrote:
Coming back after quite some time. How are some of my old faves doing? Namely: Yi, Kha, Riven, Teemo, Cait, Elise, Zac, Soraka?
From my narrow, jungle-y perspective Elise I believe is still good (even after the recent nerf) and Zac is a favorite of mine and the buff makes him even better (which is to say, fun but still not top tier).
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Yi still desstroying at lower level. Hell almost every Yi I face in gold destroys. Riven still doing riven things. Elise got buffed so she's good again but then nerfed straight away. Zac got some buffs, idk if he's good. Kha has long been forgotten. Rest i don't know.
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EPT
