• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 16:16
CEST 22:16
KST 05:16
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20259Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202577RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18
Community News
EWC 2025 - Replay Pack0Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced25BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19
StarCraft 2
General
EWC 2025 - Replay Pack #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 2025 Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 I offer completely free coaching services
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune
Brood War
General
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced [Update] ShieldBattery: 2025 Redesign Dewalt's Show Matches in China BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers [G] Mineral Boosting Does 1 second matter in StarCraft?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
UK Politics Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 705 users

[Patch 5.16] I'm the Juggernaut Patch Discussion - Page 12

Forum Index > LoL Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 10 11 12 13 14 24 Next All
Certain topics are blacklisted from Patch Discussion and they include:
  • "Elo hell"
  • The Tribunal
  • Bans, either from TL.net or LoL
  • "What is a tank" (and other vague monikers)
  • Unjustified game theory / speculative discussion about the game
  • Complaints about balance and game design
Goumindong
Profile Joined February 2013
United States3529 Posts
August 25 2015 13:45 GMT
#221
On August 25 2015 22:38 Fildun wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 25 2015 22:25 Goumindong wrote:
On August 25 2015 20:51 Slayer91 wrote:
thing is garen was almost certainly op before and nobody realized it, they are giving us a nerfed garen (though probably slightly stronger later) and everyones like wow so strong
thats my theory, I could be wrong, DMP is pretty good on garen.

The new items certainly add a lot to his power. It's much easier to build the kind of mixed defense/damage that garen wants. But he was still pretty strong in the current meta.

Nah, not really. He used to be able to do a really good defense/damage build as well.

Well no. He could build offensive and defensive items but those are less efficient than hybrid items. And there were only two, maybe three, decent hybrid items for him. One of which was newish (Cleaver, Maw, BT). This means that, by necessity he will or can have more raw stats after a set amount of gold.

Now there are 4+ good hybrid items. And more than one hybrid item if the enemy doesn't have a strong Magic damage presence.

DMP Is really good on him but so is titanic (and Steraks)

Fildun
Profile Joined December 2012
Netherlands4122 Posts
August 25 2015 13:55 GMT
#222
On August 25 2015 22:45 Goumindong wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 25 2015 22:38 Fildun wrote:
On August 25 2015 22:25 Goumindong wrote:
On August 25 2015 20:51 Slayer91 wrote:
thing is garen was almost certainly op before and nobody realized it, they are giving us a nerfed garen (though probably slightly stronger later) and everyones like wow so strong
thats my theory, I could be wrong, DMP is pretty good on garen.

The new items certainly add a lot to his power. It's much easier to build the kind of mixed defense/damage that garen wants. But he was still pretty strong in the current meta.

Nah, not really. He used to be able to do a really good defense/damage build as well.

Well no. He could build offensive and defensive items but those are less efficient than hybrid items. And there were only two, maybe three, decent hybrid items for him. One of which was newish (Cleaver, Maw, BT). This means that, by necessity he will or can have more raw stats after a set amount of gold.

Now there are 4+ good hybrid items. And more than one hybrid item if the enemy doesn't have a strong Magic damage presence.

DMP Is really good on him but so is titanic (and Steraks)


What build do you go then? Old build used to be Sunfire/Randuins/Maw/Boots/Thornmail/LW, which gives a lot of damage and tankyness. In the new build you replace Randuins with DMP, which is basically the same except you get random mobies. Besides that I don't see how any of the new items are better than the old ones so please explain all these claims you make.
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-25 13:58:40
August 25 2015 13:57 GMT
#223
There's probably something better than sunfire on garen. Not like he needs waveclear.

Also why LW over BC?
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Fildun
Profile Joined December 2012
Netherlands4122 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-25 14:05:07
August 25 2015 14:01 GMT
#224
On August 25 2015 22:57 Ketara wrote:
There's probably something better than sunfire on garen. Not like he needs waveclear.

Also why LW over BC?

It's cheaper and gives more damage.
Sunfire really helps for trading in lane though plus the stats are really good vs AD lanes. I guess you could replace it with Titanic in your full build but as first item vs AD I'd still build it.

Edit:
On August 25 2015 23:01 Prog wrote:
I'd go DMP over Sunfire (keep Randuins) and BC over LW. With the way the new spin ticks more frequently lategame BC is better.

With DMP over Sunfire I find that you lack damage in the early-midgame.
Prog
Profile Joined December 2009
United Kingdom1470 Posts
August 25 2015 14:01 GMT
#225
I'd go DMP over Sunfire (keep Randuins) and BC over LW. With the way the new spin ticks more frequently lategame BC is better.
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
August 25 2015 14:05 GMT
#226
The new randuins anti crit passive is kinda huge.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
August 25 2015 14:08 GMT
#227
Sunfire was cheap and added some dps, which is always good (long cooldowns and he doesn't exactly have good damage or mobility when they're down).
Is it still worth it to build thornmail? For raw armour I assume it's best in slot since Randuin's is down to 60 and FH to 70 iirc, but it's not like the return damage is great now.

Another random question, can't test now: can he still go through minions during E? Tooltip isn't clear if they removed the MS penalty while he does it, or if they removed it altogether.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
August 25 2015 14:14 GMT
#228
Pretty sure if you're against somebody building crit that randuins was buffed, not nerfed.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Fildun
Profile Joined December 2012
Netherlands4122 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-25 14:22:41
August 25 2015 14:17 GMT
#229
On August 25 2015 23:05 Ketara wrote:
The new randuins anti crit passive is kinda huge.

It's really not though. It reduces crits by 10%, so when an ADC has about 50% crit it reduces the damage done by the ADC by about 5%.
Randuins gives 400 HP and 60 armor, DMP gives 600 HP and 50 armor. The stats (in terms of EHP) favour DMP slightly, also because it's better against magic damage.
In terms of passive/actives you have a 35% slow for 4 seconds on a long cooldown plus a 5% damage reduction vs ADC's versus a free mobies, some damage plus a 75% slow for 1 second on first hit.

DMP is just straight better imo.

Edit:
On August 25 2015 23:21 nafta wrote:
Randuins is better on engage tanks and dmp is better on bruisers.

Well yes, but I was talking about Garen here. Obviously on stuff like Gragas/Sejuani Randuins is better.
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
August 25 2015 14:21 GMT
#230
Randuins is better on engage tanks and dmp is better on bruisers.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
August 25 2015 14:27 GMT
#231
On August 25 2015 23:17 Fildun wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 25 2015 23:05 Ketara wrote:
The new randuins anti crit passive is kinda huge.

It's really not though. It reduces crits by 10%, so when an ADC has about 50% crit it reduces the damage done by the ADC by about 5%.
Randuins gives 400 HP and 60 armor, DMP gives 600 HP and 50 armor. The stats (in terms of EHP) favour DMP slightly, also because it's better against magic damage.
In terms of passive/actives you have a 35% slow for 4 seconds on a long cooldown plus a 5% damage reduction vs ADC's versus a free mobies, some damage plus a 75% slow for 1 second on first hit.

DMP is just straight better imo.

Edit:
Show nested quote +
On August 25 2015 23:21 nafta wrote:
Randuins is better on engage tanks and dmp is better on bruisers.

Well yes, but I was talking about Garen here. Obviously on stuff like Gragas/Sejuani Randuins is better.


Also it kind of screams anti-Zeke's-item. Zeke's is stupidly strong lol.

DMP (and Olaf coming back a bit) is kind of forcing people to draft extra hard CC.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-25 14:39:06
August 25 2015 14:37 GMT
#232
On August 25 2015 23:17 Fildun wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 25 2015 23:05 Ketara wrote:
The new randuins anti crit passive is kinda huge.

It's really not though. It reduces crits by 10%, so when an ADC has about 50% crit it reduces the damage done by the ADC by about 5%.
Randuins gives 400 HP and 60 armor, DMP gives 600 HP and 50 armor. The stats (in terms of EHP) favour DMP slightly, also because it's better against magic damage.
In terms of passive/actives you have a 35% slow for 4 seconds on a long cooldown plus a 5% damage reduction vs ADC's versus a free mobies, some damage plus a 75% slow for 1 second on first hit.

DMP is just straight better imo.

Edit:
Show nested quote +
On August 25 2015 23:21 nafta wrote:
Randuins is better on engage tanks and dmp is better on bruisers.

Well yes, but I was talking about Garen here. Obviously on stuff like Gragas/Sejuani Randuins is better.


I'm not trying to compare the two items. But do you realize how much armor you'd need to reduce the adcs damage by 5%?

Not to mention its more than that. If 50% of their attacks are crits and the crits are doing 200% damage, then 66% of their damage is crit damage and the crit reduction is reducing their overall damage by 6.6%.

Only its even more than that because of the IE passive and things like Zekes and whatever. It's often more like a 7-8% damage reduction which is worth a lot of armor.

I'm too sick to do better math than that, I'm sure somebody else can help me out.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Goumindong
Profile Joined February 2013
United States3529 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-25 14:47:10
August 25 2015 14:38 GMT
#233
On August 25 2015 22:55 Fildun wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 25 2015 22:45 Goumindong wrote:
On August 25 2015 22:38 Fildun wrote:
On August 25 2015 22:25 Goumindong wrote:
On August 25 2015 20:51 Slayer91 wrote:
thing is garen was almost certainly op before and nobody realized it, they are giving us a nerfed garen (though probably slightly stronger later) and everyones like wow so strong
thats my theory, I could be wrong, DMP is pretty good on garen.

The new items certainly add a lot to his power. It's much easier to build the kind of mixed defense/damage that garen wants. But he was still pretty strong in the current meta.

Nah, not really. He used to be able to do a really good defense/damage build as well.

Well no. He could build offensive and defensive items but those are less efficient than hybrid items. And there were only two, maybe three, decent hybrid items for him. One of which was newish (Cleaver, Maw, BT). This means that, by necessity he will or can have more raw stats after a set amount of gold.

Now there are 4+ good hybrid items. And more than one hybrid item if the enemy doesn't have a strong Magic damage presence.

DMP Is really good on him but so is titanic (and Steraks)


What build do you go then? Old build used to be Sunfire/Randuins/Maw/Boots/Thornmail/LW, which gives a lot of damage and tankyness. In the new build you replace Randuins with DMP, which is basically the same except you get random mobies. Besides that I don't see how any of the new items are better than the old ones so please explain all these claims you make.


Yea see this build has three full tank items, one hybrid, and one pure damage. The fact that you have sunfire in there when garen is neither a split pusher nor has any lack of wave clear is really telling for his weak itemization options before the last patch.

You can go cleaver, maw, DMP, titanic, randuins, boots and have more tank, more damage, and more utility. If you need more of a certain defense you can drop one of the offensive mix for another pure defensive item. So on so forth.

So you spin through the front line, stacking BC for your allies. Then DMP auto, q, titanic, (ult if necessary) a squishy and you've won the fight because you've done 1500 raw damage in the space of basically one auto attack not including your ult.
Goumindong
Profile Joined February 2013
United States3529 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-25 15:10:25
August 25 2015 14:55 GMT
#234
On August 25 2015 23:37 Ketara wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 25 2015 23:17 Fildun wrote:
On August 25 2015 23:05 Ketara wrote:
The new randuins anti crit passive is kinda huge.

It's really not though. It reduces crits by 10%, so when an ADC has about 50% crit it reduces the damage done by the ADC by about 5%.
Randuins gives 400 HP and 60 armor, DMP gives 600 HP and 50 armor. The stats (in terms of EHP) favour DMP slightly, also because it's better against magic damage.
In terms of passive/actives you have a 35% slow for 4 seconds on a long cooldown plus a 5% damage reduction vs ADC's versus a free mobies, some damage plus a 75% slow for 1 second on first hit.

DMP is just straight better imo.

Edit:
On August 25 2015 23:21 nafta wrote:
Randuins is better on engage tanks and dmp is better on bruisers.

Well yes, but I was talking about Garen here. Obviously on stuff like Gragas/Sejuani Randuins is better.


I'm not trying to compare the two items. But do you realize how much armor you'd need to reduce the adcs damage by 5%

I'm too sick to do better math than that, I'm sure somebody else can help me out.


About 10 armor going from 90 to 100. Going from 190 armor to 210 is a 6.8% reduction. Doing the algebra it's clear its 5 + 5 armor/100 you already have to get 5% more DR than you already have.

Its slightly more than that if they have LW or an ally stacking BC but not ever quite double even with both and BC fully stacked. If they have flat pen figure as if your armor is already reduced which makes it easier.

Edit: unless I did something wrong it should be about 8+5 per 100 with LW and 10+5 per 100 with BC as well.

Edit2: so I am on a phone excuse my ugly algebra.

We solve 1.0v*(100+(1-R)*Armor)= 100+(1-R)*(Armor+Extra)

Where armor is what we already have, v is the % increase we want to figure for, r is the enemies % pen, and extra is the thing we are solving for.

So 100+v + 1.0v(1-R)* Armor = 100+(1-R)*(Armor+Extra)

v + 1.0v(1-R)* Armor = (1-R)*(Armor+Extra)

v/(1-R) + 1.0v* Armor = (Armor+Extra)

v/(1-R)+ .0v*Armor = Extra

So for 5% it's 5 divided by the armor reduction plus 5 per 100 base. For a 10% reduction same deal but now it's 10+10 per 100
Caiada
Profile Joined January 2015
United States3052 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-25 15:06:52
August 25 2015 15:04 GMT
#235
I don't really see a space for sunfire anymore outside of pure tanks in rare scenarios. The mobility of DMP and two decent second and third armor items in Randuin's and Thornmail respectively seem to replace it on most.

I think Randuin's passive is a bit undertuned though. Looks barely better on EHP than DMP and only versus high-crit targets with a lot of pen. Not remotely worth it unless you've already built DMP.

Titanic being a proper AA reset and scaling significantly off of health is a big deal too. Probably the item I underrated most, after playing with it. Darius with two quick AA resets is a lot of quick damage in a more usable AoE than I expected.
XDG Mata
Prog
Profile Joined December 2009
United Kingdom1470 Posts
August 25 2015 15:06 GMT
#236
Titanic does not feel great on Garen though, simply because you can't use it while spinning.
Goumindong
Profile Joined February 2013
United States3529 Posts
August 25 2015 15:11 GMT
#237
On August 26 2015 00:06 Prog wrote:
Titanic does not feel great on Garen though, simply because you can't use it while spinning.

Use it right after you q for even more "f you" damage on your instant damage.
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
August 25 2015 15:22 GMT
#238
Coming back after quite some time. How are some of my old faves doing? Namely: Yi, Kha, Riven, Teemo, Cait, Elise, Zac, Soraka?
It's your boy Guzma!
AsmodeusXI
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States15536 Posts
August 25 2015 15:26 GMT
#239
On August 26 2015 00:22 Requizen wrote:
Coming back after quite some time. How are some of my old faves doing? Namely: Yi, Kha, Riven, Teemo, Cait, Elise, Zac, Soraka?


From my narrow, jungle-y perspective Elise I believe is still good (even after the recent nerf) and Zac is a favorite of mine and the buff makes him even better (which is to say, fun but still not top tier).
WriterTL > RL. BNet: Asmodeus#1187 - LoL: DJForeclosure - Steam: asmodeusxi | www.n3rddimension.com
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
August 25 2015 15:27 GMT
#240
Yi still desstroying at lower level. Hell almost every Yi I face in gold destroys. Riven still doing riven things. Elise got buffed so she's good again but then nerfed straight away. Zac got some buffs, idk if he's good. Kha has long been forgotten. Rest i don't know.
Prev 1 10 11 12 13 14 24 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
18:00
RO8 Round Robin Group - Day 4
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
ZZZero.O255
LiquipediaDiscussion
FEL
09:00
Cracow 2025
Clem vs LamboLIVE!
Reynor vs TBD
RotterdaM2592
ComeBackTV 2242
IndyStarCraft 677
WardiTV423
3DClanTV 180
CranKy Ducklings160
EnkiAlexander 119
Rex67
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 2592
IndyStarCraft 677
Rex 67
StarCraft: Brood War
ZZZero.O 255
Soulkey 118
NaDa 6
Dota 2
capcasts360
LuMiX1
League of Legends
JimRising 101
febbydoto6
Counter-Strike
fl0m3331
Fnx 2198
flusha391
Stewie2K384
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox2017
Mew2King1383
AZ_Axe177
Westballz18
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor659
Liquid`Hasu531
Other Games
Grubby2902
B2W.Neo1122
KnowMe135
mouzStarbuck95
Sick26
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2785
StarCraft 2
angryscii 18
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 22 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta33
• LUISG 20
• Hupsaiya 16
• Legendk 4
• Adnapsc2 4
• Kozan
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 29
• Azhi_Dahaki13
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21879
• WagamamaTV903
League of Legends
• Doublelift3575
Other Games
• imaqtpie1717
• Shiphtur613
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
14h 44m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 13h
WardiTV European League
1d 19h
Online Event
1d 21h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
BSL 20 Team Wars
FEL Cracov 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.