EPT[Patch 5.16] I'm the Juggernaut Patch Discussion - Page 10
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35142 Posts
On August 24 2015 03:02 JimmiC wrote: Champion.gg tells me that reworks at least changed shit up a bunch. Gio now winningest top. Skarnerer winningest jungle (65% oh my). Morde top adc. Then worst top mid and support, all morde!! Hue hue Edit. Also 70% win rate ranking e>w>q. Please discuss. Gio? | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Maxed E gives you more potential stuns (AoE), and a lot more damage if you trigger the mark, up to 305 at level 5, which is a super high base. | ||
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
I guess there's no denying he'll take towers faster with a Triforce. For everything else Rylai's is better. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
He's got the highest base AD in the game. A Tforce proc is 220 damage at lvl12, and you proc it constantly with two low CD spells. So about ~95 AP and 150 health need to make up for that and 30 AD, accounting for Rylai's being cheaper. ~95 AP is 247 damage if you get all three hits of Q off on one guy. It's 14 damage for every second you're in range of a guy, doubled if you and the target are both in range. Not particularly significant. It's 57 damage on E. It's about 2% max health on ult; the ratio on ult is pretty bad tbh. 2% max health is like 30 damage on a generic 1.5k health target, which I think is a bit high for first item spikes, actually, but whatever. Best case scenario. Two Tforce procs and 30 AD on full Q/E combo at level 12 is an additional 440+135 damage. 575 damage. Full Rylai's Q/E/R is an additional 247+30+57 damage. 334 damage, plus an additional 14 for every second you're in range with W on. You'd need the fight to last 17 seconds *if you only get two Tforce procs*. 8 and a half if both you and your support are in range and somehow still only get two Tforce procs. Well, actually twice as long because it only lasts 4 seconds and the CD is at best around 9 at this point. I'm ignoring the Aspd and Crit here, as well. 1 in 10 hits will you get you an additional 140 damage over Rylai's. It's not significant enough to rely on for item choices though. And it should also be noted that as you level the gap only increases. Every level is an additional 10 damage. TL;DR Tforce off ridiculous base AD is actually pretty fucking good if you do math. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
On August 25 2015 00:23 Alaric wrote: Morde's Q isn't "low cooldown" because you need to auto twice (assuming you hit the first one as soon as you press Q) and he has 0.601 base AS with bad AS/level. You can easily had 2 to 3 more seconds on the cooldown, it's still around 7, but that's basically double the base cd of the ability. And that's if you can chain them all. That's true, yeah. I was thinking more of E. Even if you're just getting two off Q and E, it's much better. And a ton of his AP ratio is also wrapped up in getting all three Q hits off, which is not often realistic. On August 25 2015 00:23 Ketara wrote: I feel like after the gd split the quality of posting in this thread went way up and the quality of posting in the other thread went way down. Definitely. Gunblade, mentioned in the other thread, is a more interesting option than Rylai's. It's a lot of sustain, an equivalent slow, and more damage. Tforce for tankier builds later in the game and Gunblade as the burst/high damage option seems legit. | ||
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chalice
United States1945 Posts
you're pretty much locked in to CDR boots and scaling CDR glyphs (although i did see one top laner follow it up with Morello's), but there's nothing wrong with that at all on her. my KDA's the past two games have been so ridiculous i'm starting to wonder if i should buy a Mejai's 2nd item before Luden's. what's the argument against Mejai's on Lulu anyway? it seems like she shares a lot of the safety/self-peel + AP scaling traits that Janna has and with Whimsy it's probably even easier to run around the map racking up assists. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35142 Posts
On August 25 2015 01:00 chalice wrote: i noticed players in the Chinese and Korean playoffs building Rod of Ages on Lulu a lot and it felt really good the times i've tried it so far. it might not be unlimited mana like Athene's, but with the Catalyst passive most of the time it seems like enough (800 mana fully stacked now). eventually getting 40 extra AP for the same price is a pretty big deal and without doing the math i'm pretty sure the HP crushes 25 MR for survivability even against magic damage. you're pretty much locked in to CDR boots and scaling CDR glyphs (although i did see one top laner follow it up with Morello's), but there's nothing wrong with that at all on her. my KDA's the past two games have been so ridiculous i'm starting to wonder if i should buy a Mejai's 2nd item before Luden's. what's the argument against Mejai's on Lulu anyway? it seems like she shares a lot of the safety/self-peel + AP scaling traits that Janna has and with Whimsy it's probably even easier to run around the map racking up assists. I don't really think Mejai's has a place in the game anymore. Before the exuse was "I had more than a Blasting Wand's gold but less than a NLR." but now that NLR is 1250g I'd rather just buy that and turn it into a real item with a good passive that I don't have to worry about dying and losing stacks from. | ||
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
On August 25 2015 00:19 Caiada wrote: Alright, first, don't buy it second item; that's idiotic. You rush Tforce on basically every user except jungle guys because they need Warrior/Cinderhulk. He's got the highest base AD in the game. A Tforce proc is 220 damage at lvl12, and you proc it constantly with two low CD spells. So about ~95 AP and 150 health need to make up for that and 30 AD, accounting for Rylai's being cheaper. ~95 AP is 247 damage if you get all three hits of Q off on one guy. It's 14 damage for every second you're in range of a guy, doubled if you and the target are both in range. Not particularly significant. It's 57 damage on E. It's about 2% max health on ult; the ratio on ult is pretty bad tbh. 2% max health is like 30 damage on a generic 1.5k health target, which I think is a bit high for first item spikes, actually, but whatever. Best case scenario. Two Tforce procs and 30 AD on full Q/E combo at level 12 is an additional 440+135 damage. 575 damage. Full Rylai's Q/E/R is an additional 247+30+57 damage. 334 damage, plus an additional 14 for every second you're in range with W on. You'd need the fight to last 17 seconds *if you only get two Tforce procs*. 8 and a half if both you and your support are in range and somehow still only get two Tforce procs. Well, actually twice as long because it only lasts 4 seconds and the CD is at best around 9 at this point. I'm ignoring the Aspd and Crit here, as well. 1 in 10 hits will you get you an additional 140 damage over Rylai's. It's not significant enough to rely on for item choices though. And it should also be noted that as you level the gap only increases. Every level is an additional 10 damage. TL;DR Tforce off ridiculous base AD is actually pretty fucking good if you do math. Ok, I'll bite on this one because I'm sick of seeing these posts. Yeah, triforce does more damage on every champion with two procs than Rylais does. That includes Brand. Brand has a max AP ratio of 3.45. That's only 345 damage from Rylai's. 103 damage from triforce, but if you get two procs of triforce in you deal 348, and 452 damage total. First off, your math is wrong. I'm not sure what math you're doing. So lets fix that before I explain why your logic is faulty. + Show Spoiler [Boring Math] + Morde has a total AP ratio on Q and E of 3.2 and AD ratio of 4.50(this is with a max level Q, his AD ratio on Q scales better than his AP ratio, so AD gets better with higher ranks.) Ok, so lets assume Morde is having a 1v1 duel to the death. that's 320 extra damage with Rylai's and 231 with Triforce on his Q and E ability damage alone. Two procs of Triforce deal an additional 440. So we're at 671 on Triforce vs 320 with Rylai's. That's more than double! His ult will deal an additional 4% max hp damage with a Rylai's vs 1.2% with Triforce. The 2.8% difference is a bit of a moot point, at level 12, it's about 30-40 extra damage. W is a bit harder to calculate because it deals double damage with two people standing next to each other. I'm also not entirely sure how it works. Do the two circles explode independently and double the damage or just the AOE? Do the AOE explosions hit three targets independently when it explodes or 3 targets total? Lets assume the explosion damage doesn't stack and is only going to hit one target. If Morde and an ally double the damage onto a single target for the full duration and explode the circles that's an additional 2.7 AP ratio. Lets also ignore the fact that the circles can heal both Morde and an ally for .9AP ratio a piece. That's an additional 270 damage on Rylai's and 81 damage on Triforce. Because it's highly unlikely Morde will ever get a full combo and 2 triforce procs off on a single target without help from ally CC(unless he has Rylai's), the total max damage would be. Rylai's full combo additional damage if R deals an additional 60 damage = 650 Triforce comparison damage with 2 triforce procs = 782 Triforce wins by 132 damage. Lets say the AOE on W isn't doubled, and only Morde is hitting the enemy for the full duration. Triforce will deal an addition 207 damage in that case. So you definitely have to get that second triforce hit in. TLDR of this section: Triforce beats out Rylai's in a 1v1 and 2v1 duel where the enemy allows you to auto them with Triforce procs twice. I just wanted to at least get the proper math done here. Even though it's a rather moot point because the scenario described will almost certainly never happen. This is all ignoring that Morde has 325 base move speed. Even with the Triforce he's not speed racer by any means. This ignores when he uses his E it self roots him so anyone with a brain just isn't going to let him use E point blank without putting distance between them. This ignores that everyone in the game has more innate mobility or some form of CC better than Morde. It takes for granted that Morde will never deal any damage to anyone without being in melee range or going all in. It takes for granted that his W and E are AOE spells and aren't going to deal damage to multiple targets at a single time. It takes for granted that Morde will get two procs of Triforce off. Hell, I'd give Brand a better chance, at least he has a two second stun and is a ranged champ. And like I mentioned before, it ignores the fact he has a heal that can heal up to a .9ap ratio to both him and his ally. So, those are all important factors to consider, but I think the most important factor is the slow. If we're talking about a straight 1v1 duel. Your chances of getting 2-3 auto attacks off on an enemy go up dramatically when you can apply a 40% slow with E and a reapplying 20% slow with R or W. Morde's problem isn't that he's lacking in damage, The dude can deal 1000-2000 damage with the third hit of his Q alone. His problem is he can't stick to enemies to deal that damage. Rylai's is easily the best tool in the game to do that with. I'm so sick of Caiada posts. Not only is the logic seriously flawed and he's factoring how good items are on Magma Chamber where everyone is apparently just fighting to the death melee. But he didn't even get the math right. That's really the kicker for me. Isn't this the definition of bad theory crafting? Basing your reasoning on completely improbable circumstances and using wrong numbers? To me, it seems like this is the quintessential Caiada post, contradictory, low on logic, low on content in a seemingly apparent attempt to inflame the person he's responding to. Maybe I'm wrong, I just see little value in Caiada posts. Edit: Oops forgot to factor in explosion ratio. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
The math was wrong on ult/W, yeah. It's still better if you get even two AAs off. When the fuck are you not getting two AAs off with at least one free AA reset, 2 if you build correctly? When the hell are you hitting 3 people with a 250 radius PBAoE? How often does that heal actually matter for either of you when you hit someone with it? How does an additional .3 AP ratio make 95 AP of gold value better than even one Tforce proc? Especially on a champ that's been reliant on burst since his release because of how ult works. If you're picking Morde with a support that cannot setup at least two AAs, one of you has picked wrong. There is nothing more to it. But fuck, if you want Rylai's, go ahead and get it. The champion.gg most winning build has fucking both, so there ya go. | ||
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
It's not like you play Morde to rush the backline either, you just Q whatever's closest (maybe R the adc if you've got an assassin) and at that point in the game getting even two full rotations of q simply does not require a Rylais. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
If they were going for "making it feel powerful", I feel like they succeeded but I'm not sure if killing their ADC in half a second 1v1 despite QSSing ult is intended. User was warned for this post | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On August 25 2015 04:09 Seuss wrote: According to the wiki Rylai's slow applies on Morde Q as well. Eeeeh? That surprises me. I built rylai's on Morde a couple of times and I never noticed... but after testing, you're right. | ||
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suicideyear
Ivory Coast3016 Posts
On August 25 2015 05:34 Shikyo wrote: Played my first match as Skarner ever and uhhhh... there is this DRM in the last serious sam game where if the game detected a pirated copy, after a while the game would spawn a giant invincible superfast scorpion that chased you everywhere through the level until you died whenever i see skarner in 5.16 i get flashbacks to serious sam | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On August 25 2015 05:16 Osmoses wrote: Myeah, Morde these days assumes a duo lane, usually with hard engage, and as mordes Q is pretty much all of his damage, if you can't get it off at least three times in a fight you might as well reconsider playing him altogether. Watching qtpie he had no problems with steraks into tf and exhaust over ignite/heal in lane. It's not like you play Morde to rush the backline either, you just Q whatever's closest (maybe R the adc if you've got an assassin) and at that point in the game getting even two full rotations of q simply does not require a Rylais. He's very strong midgame where AD's don't have enough damage to kill him and he still does a pretty decent amount of damage to tanks because they can't shrug off his damage yet. Then lategame he turns into some sort of weird crappy assassin where you gotta pray that somehow you blow up a carry and get their ghost. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On August 25 2015 05:37 phyvo wrote: Eeeeh? That surprises me. I built rylai's on Morde a couple of times and I never noticed... but after testing, you're right. Yeah it basically counts as a single target spell (SEE: Ekko). | ||
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