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Teemo throws shrooms and can throw them further by making them bounce over a previously placed mushroom to plant them at a distance now.
Also relevant.
Zac is the same, 'cept he jumps from even farther now (think at level 7 or 9 he actually beats Noc's ult).
Soraka was reworked, you can't mash Q and zone people now, nor can you give mana back. Instead you give your health to allies at a high rate and land skillshot Q to heal yourself, and your silence is a field you place on the ground, good zoning, big "fuck you" to some characters.
Riven's gonna be broken again because armour was reduced across the board with compensations only coming late.
Elise is broken because they buffed Cocoon massively, and she has better sustain and dps through spiderlings (their attacks deal magical damage now).
I dunno if you were still here when AP Yi got deleted.
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On August 25 2015 23:08 Alaric wrote:
Another random question, can't test now: can he still go through minions during E? Tooltip isn't clear if they removed the MS penalty while he does it, or if they removed it altogether.
He still goes through minions when spinning.
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On August 26 2015 00:28 Alaric wrote:Teemo throws shrooms and can throw them further by making them bounce over a previously placed mushroom to plant them at a distance now. Also relevant. Zac is the same, 'cept he jumps from even farther now (think at level 7 or 9 he actually beats Noc's ult). Soraka was reworked, you can't mash Q and zone people now, nor can you give mana back. Instead you give your health to allies at a high rate and land skillshot Q to heal yourself, and your silence is a field you place on the ground, good zoning, big "fuck you" to some characters. Riven's gonna be broken again because armour was reduced across the board with compensations only coming late. Elise is broken because they buffed Cocoon massively, and she has better sustain and dps through spiderlings (their attacks deal magical damage now). I dunno if you were still here when AP Yi got deleted.
Hahaha what you can move while stealthed in bushes as Teemo now? That's huuuuuuuge for lane plays holy crap.
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38 Ping when I was playing at 88 ping. This is glorious....
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On August 26 2015 00:22 Requizen wrote:
Coming back after quite some time. How are some of my old faves doing? Namely: Yi, Kha, Riven, Teemo, Cait, Elise, Zac, Soraka?
Yi is Yi, he either goes off or blows up.
Kha is sleeper strong.
Riven remains the same as she ever was. If you play her well you can carry, if you don't you're effectively useless.
Teemo is still satan
Cait is largely useless imo. ADC is in a rough spot right now and that hurts Cait more than most.
Elise was op last patch, strong this patch.
Zac is... ???
Soraka is full "Their X, our X." Her presence is either oppressive or laughable.
On August 26 2015 00:34 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2015 00:28 Alaric wrote:Teemo throws shrooms and can throw them further by making them bounce over a previously placed mushroom to plant them at a distance now. Also relevant. Zac is the same, 'cept he jumps from even farther now (think at level 7 or 9 he actually beats Noc's ult). Soraka was reworked, you can't mash Q and zone people now, nor can you give mana back. Instead you give your health to allies at a high rate and land skillshot Q to heal yourself, and your silence is a field you place on the ground, good zoning, big "fuck you" to some characters. Riven's gonna be broken again because armour was reduced across the board with compensations only coming late. Elise is broken because they buffed Cocoon massively, and she has better sustain and dps through spiderlings (their attacks deal magical damage now). I dunno if you were still here when AP Yi got deleted. Hahaha what you can move while stealthed in bushes as Teemo now? That's huuuuuuuge for lane plays holy crap.
http://liquidlegends.net/forum/shopkeepers-inn/199350-sfw-random-pics-and-vids?page=304#6064
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Yeah I'm going to play so much Teemo now
Batman is back boiz
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On August 26 2015 00:04 Caiada wrote:
Titanic being a proper AA reset and scaling significantly off of health is a big deal too. Probably the item I underrated most, after playing with it. Darius with two quick AA resets is a lot of quick damage in a more usable AoE than I expected.
The damage on titanic is really amazingly high. It's like buying another ability that does 40+10% max health plus 1.0 AD.
At 3000 HP that is going to be nearly more damage than an AA+Q combo. (More if you're lowish on AD or Highish on HP). Titanic more than doubles that combo damage considering the AD. No other item on the game gets close to that kind of power increase for any champion. Except maybe deathcap on abilities like zyra plants, but certainly not across an entire ability set.
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On August 25 2015 22:25 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2015 20:51 Slayer91 wrote:
thing is garen was almost certainly op before and nobody realized it, they are giving us a nerfed garen (though probably slightly stronger later) and everyones like wow so strong
thats my theory, I could be wrong, DMP is pretty good on garen. The new items certainly add a lot to his power. It's much easier to build the kind of mixed defense/damage that garen wants. But he was still pretty strong in the current meta.
Don't think the new items add that much to his power, but rito added to his power organically with the post 16 extra E power. I'd need to test more so I can't back this up too strongly.
On August 25 2015 22:57 Ketara wrote:
There's probably something better than sunfire on garen. Not like he needs waveclear.
Also why LW over BC?
I explained this many times in the garen thread. It was just better. Things are different with more E ticks and new BC combined, it's probably not worth to get LW anymore. You got sunfire because garens ad ratios were only average and he lacked sustained damage, sunfire was the best way to add to his damage/DPS while still building tanky. Was a must have.
On August 25 2015 23:38 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2015 22:55 Fildun wrote:On August 25 2015 22:45 Goumindong wrote:On August 25 2015 22:38 Fildun wrote:On August 25 2015 22:25 Goumindong wrote:On August 25 2015 20:51 Slayer91 wrote:
thing is garen was almost certainly op before and nobody realized it, they are giving us a nerfed garen (though probably slightly stronger later) and everyones like wow so strong
thats my theory, I could be wrong, DMP is pretty good on garen. The new items certainly add a lot to his power. It's much easier to build the kind of mixed defense/damage that garen wants. But he was still pretty strong in the current meta. Nah, not really. He used to be able to do a really good defense/damage build as well. Well no. He could build offensive and defensive items but those are less efficient than hybrid items. And there were only two, maybe three, decent hybrid items for him. One of which was newish (Cleaver, Maw, BT). This means that, by necessity he will or can have more raw stats after a set amount of gold. Now there are 4+ good hybrid items. And more than one hybrid item if the enemy doesn't have a strong Magic damage presence. DMP Is really good on him but so is titanic (and Steraks) What build do you go then? Old build used to be Sunfire/Randuins/Maw/Boots/Thornmail/LW, which gives a lot of damage and tankyness. In the new build you replace Randuins with DMP, which is basically the same except you get random mobies. Besides that I don't see how any of the new items are better than the old ones so please explain all these claims you make. Yea see this build has three full tank items, one hybrid, and one pure damage. The fact that you have sunfire in there when garen is neither a split pusher nor has any lack of wave clear is really telling for his weak itemization options before the last patch. You can go cleaver, maw, DMP, titanic, randuins, boots and have more tank, more damage, and more utility. If you need more of a certain defense you can drop one of the offensive mix for another pure defensive item. So on so forth. So you spin through the front line, stacking BC for your allies. Then DMP auto, q, titanic, (ult if necessary) a squishy and you've won the fight because you've done 1500 raw damage in the space of basically one auto attack not including your ult.
Don't know why you view sunfire as a split pushing item. It is useful for champs who split push but it's not its only use. Garen had a 4.5s 45% move buff and a 2.5 second silence so he got a lot of guaranteed (garenteed) damage from sunfire more than most champs (malphite still uses it better maybe).
Old build was cheap as fuck so yeah it's gonna seem worse when you replace 2k gold items with 3k gold items. If they didnt have much ap I often went triple randuins though so I guess you have a point LOL. Still triple rand and thornmail was +310 armour (+30% scaling w and masteries so like +400) and 1500 hp.
Haven't tried going garen without sunfire, probably sucks even harder now with shittier midgame damage.
About the crit argument you guys are having, I had a glance but I'm gonna invalidate all your math if you didn't take into account IE crit damage increase. With 55% crit (IE+PD) Crits should deal 75% of an adcs pure auto damage. So its -7.5% damage. Also take into account LW reduces the effect of armour. New randuins should be a significant improvement in EHP but I didn't do the meth.
Also does anyone know how it scales with the reinforced armour mastery? Changes things slightly.
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The math I didnshould let you plug in any % you want with any % of DPS reduction. Edit: I considered correcting the amount of damage reduction but it wasn't worth it. At 50% crit with no crit damage multiple besides base crits are 66% of your damage so 10% crit red is about 6.6 % reduction
The thing that looks wonky (but isn't once you think about it) is that the % reductions cancel out on the scaling (IE the armor portion) but not the "base" portion (Ie the fact that at zero armor you take 100% damage)
I would agree with you on the sunfire but the actual amount of damage is so low. It's max 40 DPS. It's like a third to a quarter of the damage you would expect thot mail to do. (An ADC which does 300 DPS will do 100 DPS to himself). Which is really tiny compared with titanic adding some 720 damage to your AA-Q (titanic) combo or the effect of not dying for longer with a stronger tank item
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On August 26 2015 03:45 Goumindong wrote:
The math I didnshould let you plug in any % you want with any % of DPS reduction. Edit: I considered correcting the amount of damage reduction but it wasn't worth it. At 50% crit with no crit damage multiple besides base crits are 66% of your damage so 10% crit red is about 6.6 % reduction
The thing that looks wonky (but isn't once you think about it) is that the % reductions cancel out on the scaling (IE the armor portion) but not the "base" portion (Ie the fact that at zero armor you take 100% damage)
I would agree with you on the sunfire but the actual amount of damage is so low. It's max 40 DPS. It's like a third to a quarter of the damage you would expect thot mail to do. (An ADC which does 300 DPS will do 100 DPS to himself). Which is really tiny compared with titanic adding some 720 damage to your AA-Q (titanic) combo or the effect of not dying for longer with a stronger tank item
the amount of damage sunfire does in lane or in an early teamfight can be quite big though, for a fairly low cost and good balance of stat
you can always sell it later
the AA-Q-Titanic combo is wonky
most of the time you need to Q first to gapclose so its more likely a Q-titanic combo
i havent played much with the new items though, maybe titanic first garen is good actually
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The fact that it's multiplicative has a small effect but very small once you consider that the base is with the new mastery. I.E at 50% no mult crit the DPS reduction is about 6.66% and with the mastery like 6.3%. Not a large difference.
55% crit plus .5 bonus crit mod (so IE and PD) crits make up about 75% of your DPS (not including abilities/botrk)
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I said that like 3 posts ago wat
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I did some random testing on Garen in a few games with Titanic once I realized how well the active scaled. The double reset thing isn't as reasonable to pull off or as useful as on Darius. The attack windup feels a bit long to do it quickly and often you just want to Q into range, compared to Darius where E slow into W slow keeps them in range easily for the full combo. There's probably some better way to combo it on Garen, but you'll need to be in range already.
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On August 26 2015 04:02 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2015 03:45 Goumindong wrote:
The math I didnshould let you plug in any % you want with any % of DPS reduction. Edit: I considered correcting the amount of damage reduction but it wasn't worth it. At 50% crit with no crit damage multiple besides base crits are 66% of your damage so 10% crit red is about 6.6 % reduction
The thing that looks wonky (but isn't once you think about it) is that the % reductions cancel out on the scaling (IE the armor portion) but not the "base" portion (Ie the fact that at zero armor you take 100% damage)
I would agree with you on the sunfire but the actual amount of damage is so low. It's max 40 DPS. It's like a third to a quarter of the damage you would expect thot mail to do. (An ADC which does 300 DPS will do 100 DPS to himself). Which is really tiny compared with titanic adding some 720 damage to your AA-Q (titanic) combo or the effect of not dying for longer with a stronger tank item the amount of damage sunfire does in lane or in an early teamfight can be quite big though, for a fairly low cost and good balance of stat you can always sell it later the AA-Q-Titanic combo is wonky most of the time you need to Q first to gapclose so its more likely a Q-titanic combo i havent played much with the new items though, maybe titanic first garen is good actually
Titanic splash will be higher than sunfire damage. And if you don't get that first AA off then q-titanic is even larger increase in damage.
Not sure it's a first item (I would think BC or DMP) but it's definitely up there.
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On August 26 2015 04:14 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2015 04:02 Slayer91 wrote:On August 26 2015 03:45 Goumindong wrote:
The math I didnshould let you plug in any % you want with any % of DPS reduction. Edit: I considered correcting the amount of damage reduction but it wasn't worth it. At 50% crit with no crit damage multiple besides base crits are 66% of your damage so 10% crit red is about 6.6 % reduction
The thing that looks wonky (but isn't once you think about it) is that the % reductions cancel out on the scaling (IE the armor portion) but not the "base" portion (Ie the fact that at zero armor you take 100% damage)
I would agree with you on the sunfire but the actual amount of damage is so low. It's max 40 DPS. It's like a third to a quarter of the damage you would expect thot mail to do. (An ADC which does 300 DPS will do 100 DPS to himself). Which is really tiny compared with titanic adding some 720 damage to your AA-Q (titanic) combo or the effect of not dying for longer with a stronger tank item the amount of damage sunfire does in lane or in an early teamfight can be quite big though, for a fairly low cost and good balance of stat you can always sell it later the AA-Q-Titanic combo is wonky most of the time you need to Q first to gapclose so its more likely a Q-titanic combo i havent played much with the new items though, maybe titanic first garen is good actually Titanic splash will be higher than sunfire damage. And if you don't get that first AA off then q-titanic is even larger increase in damage. Not sure it's a first item (I would think BC or DMP) but it's definitely up there.
Titanic splash is useless during spin so sunfire damage will probably be higher, especially considering you don't attack on attack cooldown.
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On August 26 2015 04:16 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2015 04:14 Goumindong wrote:On August 26 2015 04:02 Slayer91 wrote:On August 26 2015 03:45 Goumindong wrote:
The math I didnshould let you plug in any % you want with any % of DPS reduction. Edit: I considered correcting the amount of damage reduction but it wasn't worth it. At 50% crit with no crit damage multiple besides base crits are 66% of your damage so 10% crit red is about 6.6 % reduction
The thing that looks wonky (but isn't once you think about it) is that the % reductions cancel out on the scaling (IE the armor portion) but not the "base" portion (Ie the fact that at zero armor you take 100% damage)
I would agree with you on the sunfire but the actual amount of damage is so low. It's max 40 DPS. It's like a third to a quarter of the damage you would expect thot mail to do. (An ADC which does 300 DPS will do 100 DPS to himself). Which is really tiny compared with titanic adding some 720 damage to your AA-Q (titanic) combo or the effect of not dying for longer with a stronger tank item the amount of damage sunfire does in lane or in an early teamfight can be quite big though, for a fairly low cost and good balance of stat you can always sell it later the AA-Q-Titanic combo is wonky most of the time you need to Q first to gapclose so its more likely a Q-titanic combo i havent played much with the new items though, maybe titanic first garen is good actually Titanic splash will be higher than sunfire damage. And if you don't get that first AA off then q-titanic is even larger increase in damage. Not sure it's a first item (I would think BC or DMP) but it's definitely up there. Titanic splash is useless during spin so sunfire damage will probably be higher, especially considering you don't attack on attack cooldown.
Keep in mind that Titanic has AD, so it will be empowering the spin by a signficant amount.
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thats trade off for the sunfire armour though so it's silly to count that
I mean its more cost of ad but sunfire is cheaper
sunfire aoe damage and titanic hydra active are similar in price range I'd guess
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Now that you get free armor for killing minions you should be de-prioritizing it a little anyway (You may be less tanky overall but the marginal advantage of buying armor has been reduced)
Maybe this will make sense. I am not sure how you could justify sunfire over DMP. One fully charged DMP auto will do as much or more than 3 seconds of sunfire damage (depending on when you get the cape) while it has more armor and HP and also 60 move speed and a slow (so after you q a guy you're guaranteed more autos or a good spin) all for nearly the same price.
And then once you have DMP I am not sure how you can justify a sunfire at all in terms of cost. It's more efficient to buy a chain vest, Giants belt, and a pick axe than it is to upgrade to sunfire. Then turn the pickaxe into something useful later (titanic) and the Giants/chain into DMP.
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I hope you do realize that you'll never get a fully charged DMP auto off in lane? As first item Sunfire is just better (we already gave all the reasoning), I don't really see what point you're trying to make here. In a hypothetical 6 item endgame build it's probably better, but that's not what League is about.
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EPT
