EPT[Season 5] Lux, the Lady of Luminosity - Page 9
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Velocirapture
United States983 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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Velocirapture
United States983 Posts
On July 30 2015 19:40 Ketara wrote: I'd be interested in seeing how your waveclear and mana hold up against TF especially. Since you asked specifically for it and the first game I played today was vs TF I will just post it here. www.replay.gg | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I'mma start with the Zed game. I don't think I've ever seen a Zed take Exhaust against Lux. Zed with Exhaust and Lux with Barrier already makes this a weird one. You're in general being much less aggressive early game than I would be. When Zed goes in on you at level 3 you should have been able to kill him or at least force a flash. After missing the snare (QQ) you just Exhaust him, he has to Exhaust you but he's still standing in all your minions, it'll force a flash out of him. Lux absolutely destroys Zed at levels 1-3, you don't need to play scared the way you are. Dying to him at 6 was 100% your fault. You should know that your combo isn't going to kill him while he has 500 HP. You also Barriered too fast, your Barrier disappeared before the Death Mark finished. Barrier and Exhaust last 2 / 2.5 seconds respectively and Death Mark takes 3 seconds to complete, so you have to wait before using them. This is a big reason why Exhaust is so good against Zed over Barrier. If you wait one second to use Barrier you don't block the Q and E damage with it, whereas with Exhaust if you time it perfectly you can likely reduce almost everything. Plus Exhaust lets you save your ADC when he jumps them later on, not just yourself. You just barely died too, a more defensive rune/mastery build may have saved you. Or just having Exhaust / Barriering at the right time. I think it's pretty safe to say that with my build listed in the guide you would not have died, and you may well have also killed him. Or at least gotten his Flash, which would have meant a kill when Nid ganks him later on. So your first back you buy an NLR and potions, where I would have bought an Armguard. At this point the extra AP from NLR isn't changing your ability to waveclear at all, it's still E+auto either way. I think the gank by Nidalee goes about as well as it could have considering your Q is down and Zed has Flash. Build differences I think wouldn't have changed anything here. Second back you buy the Aether Wisp, I would have gotten a second Dorans and started on Morellos. The problem at this point is that since you don't have Exhaust or Armor, you have to play far back, any time you get too close to Zed he can kill you. Movespeed isn't a good defensive stat against a Zed and your AP still isn't at a level where you can one shot caster minions. This inability to get close is noticeably costing you a few CS, although I think you're doing a good job of playing defensively with the cards you've been dealt. You're still keeping up in CS, Zed isn't killing you again, and when he roams you do the best you can at countering it. Your mana isn't really having issues at all, but you're using a very similar build mana wise to what I use in this matchup. In the fight at 13 mins you could have maybe saved the Nidalee if you had Exhaust and shielded faster, but probably not she was pretty low. After the fight your mana is noticeably low. If you'd started on Morellos here you could have pushed Zed off his creeps here I think, but it's minor. This is really the point where our builds start to differ mana wise. I dislike how at this back you're only buying potions. Once the game is over I want to look at how many potions you purchased after the initial 2. You've got about 4300 gold at this point, so with my build you actually would have more AP than you have now. You're at 152 with Dorans+Ludens With my build you'd have at this point 2x Dorans, Armguard and Morello. You'd have about 175 AP here, and you'd still have 45 Armor, 20% CDR, and more Regen. If you'd been more aggro earlier, gotten a kill on Zed and a CS lead you'd also have Boots I think for similar movespeed. Ludens procs are pretty good, but they're not that good. I think the kill on Elise is free, I don't think builds would have changed it any. I don't think builds would have changed the fight top any either, and meanwhile your Vayne is apparently 6/0/2? Teehee. At 21 minutes you're still not one shotting casters, it's worth noting. You do have a ton of AP now, about 50 more than I would have at the same timing, although I'd also have Sorc Shoes here. Not sure who would be doing more damage. Its this point where I think your build is really going to pick up speed, if you hadn't been behind in lane you might have Deathcap finished at this timing and you'd have quite a lot of damage. This is about when they surrender though. So it's a stomp, but it wasn't really a stomp for you. I think you kinda got carried. I think you did well playing from behind and supporting your team, which is the advantage of a Lux, if she's not ahead she can fall back into that position and still be very useful. But I don't think I like your build more than mine in this Zed matchup. I think your build is pretty clearly inferior prior to this 2 item timing, and even in a game where you were 4/1/4 with reasonably good CS you don't hit that timing till 24 minutes. It's unfortunate that we don't get to see you showcase this timing in a more even game, but 24 minutes is likely 2/3rds of most games, so I'd probably still prefer a build with a stronger early / mid game. Mana wise, there wasn't much of a problem, but you also buy a total of I believe 12 potions, where I would have only bought 4-6. Not sure how big of a problem that is, although it does slow down your timing. Hope that sounds like a fair review to you! I'm much more interested in the TF game, since that's one where I would open Athenes, and a matchup I typically have a lot of problems with. Most of the time Zed is an easy lane for Lux, unless the enemy jungler is heavy on ganks like J4 or Lee or Reksai or whatever and decides he really wants to play with little schoolgirls. | ||
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Velocirapture
United States983 Posts
My hesitation in posting anything is that every game is gonna read like what you wrote. "X player was bad so you won for free" so on and so forth. I totally didn't notice that Zed had exhaust so i got caught off guard at 6 when I should have backed for AP. The reason I posted a replay was not to say "I am so pro, do exactly this". At higher elos both sides would be hitting milestones earlier and at lower elo they hit them later. What that game shows is that even when you get behind a little bit you are still one shotting waves with E and building up to a huge power spike without suffering the postponement of the CDR and mana item too badly. I appreciate that you disagree with my Lux play style and encourage all of you to try it for yourself and see if the benchmarks I value are relevant in your games. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Put in perspective, if you'd gone 2x doran > Morello > dcap, you'd have the same AP and still waveclear in one spell at the same timing. But you'd also waveclear better before that timing, and also have better laning one vs one at all stages prior to that. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
If you go zhonya deathcap you can one shot casters too, but you also beat the Zed in a 1v1, which means you get more gold and hit that timing faster. With ludens deathcap you don't. | ||
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Velocirapture
United States983 Posts
This is all my opinion. I do not think my play pattern in lane is weak. I play Lux my way because I think it is the best way to play her. If you think on Lux going deep and aggressive to trade and focus on 1v1 outplay potential then we are not on the same page generally. Edit: Clarity - I got Ludens at 12:18 in the Zed game and you can get ~3000 gold from perfect cs in 10 mins so that is why I say my timing is slow. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
There's two reasons why you want to be able to waveclear just with spells. #1 - So you can clear faster, giving you more time to roam or to stop enemy roaming. #2 - Because the enemy champion is pressuring you in such a way that you can't use autoattacks on minions safely. If you're only throwing E at casters so that the Ludens proc damage will kill them, you're not doing #1. It'd take you just as long to kill the wave as if you E the entire thing and then auto, or E it twice. You're not satisfying condition #1 till you have two items, and if you get Deathcap 2nd you're realistically satisfying it regardless of what the two items are. You do satisfy condition #2, since you can use one E on the casters and then a second spellset on the melees. We can see you doing that in that game, since you get behind vs. the Zed and are scared of him. However, the reason you need to do that is because you go for that Ludens in the first place. Ludens does not let you win a fight with Zed, while other item builds do. He's not a champion that you just can't beat in a 1v1 situation, you can actually beat him quite easily. So wouldn't it be better to take items that let you win the 1v1, which means you're the one zoning him off creeps and denying him CS, rather than the other way around? It satisfies the requirement you're setting via farming, while also letting you shut down your opponent. | ||
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Velocirapture
United States983 Posts
On July 31 2015 12:47 Ketara wrote: Let me try to explain it a different way. There's two reasons why you want to be able to waveclear just with spells. #1 - So you can clear faster, giving you more time to roam or to stop enemy roaming. #2 - Because the enemy champion is pressuring you in such a way that you can't use autoattacks on minions safely. If you're only throwing E at casters so that the Ludens proc damage will kill them, you're not doing #1. It'd take you just as long to kill the wave as if you E the entire thing and then auto, or E it twice. You're not satisfying condition #1 till you have two items, and if you get Deathcap 2nd you're realistically satisfying it regardless of what the two items are. You do satisfy condition #2, since you can use one E on the casters and then a second spellset on the melees. We can see you doing that in that game, since you get behind vs. the Zed and are scared of him. However, the reason you need to do that is because you go for that Ludens in the first place. Ludens does not let you win a fight with Zed, while other item builds do. He's not a champion that you just can't beat in a 1v1 situation, you can actually beat him quite easily. So wouldn't it be better to take items that let you win the 1v1, which means you're the one zoning him off creeps and denying him CS, rather than the other way around? It satisfies the requirement you're setting via farming, while also letting you shut down your opponent. Discalimer: opinion as always This would be true if you snapshot the game at milestone moments but not if you read the flow of the game. I don't get to choose how the game will play out. I need to be ready at any moment to respond to rotations, ganks or plays. After first back would I rather skirmish at dragon with an unstacked armguard or a NLR? NLR 100%. On a low economy first back would I rather have tome+cloth or wisp? Wisp 100%. At 1 item would I rather skirmish with Ludens or Zhonyas? Ludens 100%. There is no reason in my experience to think of a 3000 gold item as a laning tool. The safety you get from it at the 11-12 minute mark is too champion specific and comes at a significant offensive cost. When pushing a tower as a team the ability to 1 spell clear casters while the ADC or top laner kill the more accessible melees is a big deal. The 10% MS is a more general utility that applies to all circumstances (which is critical when postponing boots). Tunneling on the 1v1 is not the way to give you the best chance at victory across all games given all variables. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I think a lot of the individual game is just that the TF's ults are poor, and the Lee Sin feeds pretty hard. But the build looks promising there. You don't really run out of mana too badly, and Ludens actually does give you what you want against a TF, waveclear and movespeed. MR doesn't really make a big deal against TF because movespeed is a better defensive stat, and he really tests the limits of how well you can waveclear. I think it'd be worth it to do some math and look at the actual mana regen at different levels and item values for the build to see how far it's off from just going for Athenes. | ||
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Velocirapture
United States983 Posts
On July 31 2015 13:34 Ketara wrote: I think against a Zed you would absolutely rather have an unstacked armguard (or more realistically a second dorans, amp tome and cloth armor) than an NLR, and would rather have Tome+Cloth than a Wisp in early fights. But you are not vs Zed lol, you are vs some combination of the enemy team. It is just as likely I will be against Elise/Sivir/Vel'Koz or Singed and Elise. You have no way of knowing how it will go and the only circumstance where armguard is better is if in a 3v3 or 4v4 Zed can get to me and sit on me. There is no guarantee in skirmishes that the armor will have any value at all and then you spent 1200 gold on 25 AP rather than 60. Nevermind that wisp gives 17 MS which is a pretty big deal when roaming and positioning against people who don't have boots. In my experience when it comes to team fights there is very little that Zhonyas can do that can't be done for free with better positioning. That isn't to say that there are no "inescapable predator" team fight scenarios that arise but if I am going to be pushed into hourglass it won't be by a Zed, it will be by Zed/Jarvan/Irelia or some such ridiculous combination. And even then it is damage control that comes at a cost I don't want to pay. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I think you're looking at the Zhonyas a little too hard, when that isn't even the build. You could easily go Armguard > Hat or Armguard > Morello or Armguard > Ludens or Armguard > Void or whatever. A 3000 gold item isn't a laning tool, but a 1200 gold item definitely is. I also think you're overestimating the impact that the AP has on Lux. Her ratios aren't all that great. | ||
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Velocirapture
United States983 Posts
On July 31 2015 14:39 Ketara wrote: But what would you rather have in the fight? 30ish more AP? Or a good chance that Zed isn't able to join the fight because you're beating him in lane so badly? I think you're looking at the Zhonyas a little too hard, when that isn't even the build. You could easily go Armguard > Hat or Armguard > Morello or Armguard > Ludens or Armguard > Void or whatever. A 3000 gold item isn't a laning tool, but a 1200 gold item definitely is. I also think you're overestimating the impact that the AP has on Lux. Her ratios aren't all that great. And I think you are overstating the impact of armguard as a defensive item when laning. You have literally no clue if the armor will ever be meaningful and 30 armor isn't some gateway to crushing Zed in lane. If going armguard gave some level of certainty that you will deny him a huge amount of gold then fine but it isn't even close to that. What you are doing with armguard is gambling on a much weaker long term build in the hopes that you pull off some sic 1v1 outplay. What happens when you get camped? What happens when you need to roam? What happens when Zed goes bot for a double kill and your armor is no longer stops the 100-0? Postponing the items in my build by 1200 gold is crippling to every timing in my experience (I did not give up on buying boots easily and they are a cheaper purchase). If you go armguard first it pushes everything else, including boots and cdr/mana down the road in a very significant way. The entire premise of the build is not to get Ludens fast, it is to get Deathcap ASAP. Ludens is the tool that allows you to postpone 3400 gold in early purchases by giving MS and dramatically increasing the mana/cooldown efficiency of your farming/sieging. I have quite a few Lux games this season and have tried a lot of different variations and I encourage all Lux fans to give it a go in an actual game. See for yourself if armguard is giving you so much 1v1 pressure you can position ahead of the wave denying cs or if you are better off developing your combo into the most dangerous tool possible. I am not some Lux god so I can't tell people how to play it but I have played a lot of games and am confident in the value of my experience. If you find more success running at Zed guns blazing with 60-70 armor than with my more conservative scaling build, more power to you. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
So, I'm gonna look at the differences between mana regen builds. To start with, we need to get an idea for how much mana regen Lux actually needs. This is a debatable figure, but what I'm going to go with is that Lux needs to be able to cast E twice per minion wave. My logic is that you must cast E once per wave in order to clear the wave. This is a minimum, there are matchups where you need more spells than this. However, you must also be able to cast E once per minion wave to harass the enemy champion. If you are not also doing that you are not applying any pressure in the lane, therefor there is no reason for you to be buying AP. You should be getting more mana regen until you are capable of casting E twice per minion wave, and then buy AP. Two E's per minion wave is 8.66 mana per second. You also need to save enough mana for a full spell rotation in case a fight starts, or 340 mana. So once Lux drops to just above 340 mana, we can assume she has to go back to base or use a potion. With this benchmark, we're going to figure out, using different builds, approximately how many minion waves Lux can stay in lane for until she has to go back to base for more mana. We'll look at level 9. Athenes builds This is the "standard" Lux build and is what is listed as build #1 in the guide. + Show Spoiler + Lux base mana/regen: Lvl9 - 671/11.4 Regen from masteries: 0 (9 defense) or 75 extra mana (9 utility) Regen from items: 1x Dorans - 9.6 (this is assuming 10 CS per minute, which is maybe too high for lower level players) 2x Dorans - 19.2 Athenes - 100% mana regen, 2% of missing mana (we will average this) Total regen: 35.7 (def m, 1x doran), 36.1 (util m, 1x doran), 45.6 (def m, 2x doran), 46 (def m, 2x doran) Time Lux can stay in lane: Def m, 1x doran: 226.7 seconds (7-8 minion waves) Util m, 1x doran: 281.9 seconds (9-10 minion waves) Def m, 2x doran: Infinite (positive mana regen at 2 E's per wave) Util m, 2x doran: Infinite (positive mana regen at 2 E's per wave) Morellos builds This is the standard build, but if we bought a Morello instead of an Athenes (against Vladimir for example) + Show Spoiler + Lux base mana/regen: Lvl9 - 671/11.4 Regen from masteries: 0 (9 defense) or 75 extra mana (9 utility) Regen from items: 1x Dorans - 9.6 (this is assuming 10 CS per minute, which is maybe too high for lower level players) 2x Dorans - 19.2 Morellonomicon - 100% mana regen Total regen: 32.4 (def m, 1x doran), 32.4 (util m, 1x doran), 42 (def m, 2x doran), 42 (def m, 2x doran) Time Lux can stay in lane: Def m, 1x doran: 151.8 seconds (5 minion waves) Util m, 1x doran: 196.2 seconds (6-7 minion waves) Def m, 2x doran: 1273.2 seconds (42-43 minion waves) Util m, 2x doran: 1561.5 seconds (52 minion waves) Guides Anti AD build This is the anti AD Assassin build listed in the guide. At the same gold level here (about 3000) Lux will have 2x Dorans, an Armguard, and either a Forbidden Idol or a Fiendish Codex. + Show Spoiler + Lux base mana/regen: Lvl9 - 671/11.4 Regen from runes: 101.25 mana or 2.97 mana regen Regen from items: 2x Dorans - 19.2 (this is assuming 10 CS per minute, which is maybe too high for lower level players) Forbidden Idol - 50% mana regen Total regen: 30.6 (mana runes, Codex), 33.57 (mana regen runes, Codex) 36.3 (mana runes, Idol), 39.27 (mana regen runes, Idol) Time Lux can stay in lane: Mana regen runes, Codex - 170.09 seconds (5-6 waves) Mana runes, Codex - 170.17 seconds (5-6 waves) Mana runes, Idol - 308.75 seconds (10-11 waves) Mana regen runes, Idol - 410 seconds (13-14 waves) Velociraptures build This build goes heavy on mana regen runes so you can go Ludens > Deathcap for max damage. + Show Spoiler + Lux base mana/regen: Lvl9 - 671/11.4 Regen from runes: 5.265 Regen from masteries: 0 (def) or 75 extra mana (util) Regen from items: 1x Dorans - 9.6 (this is assuming 10 CS per minute, which is maybe too high for lower level players) Total regen: 26.265 (def masteries), 26.265 (util masteries) Time Lux can stay in lane: Def masteries - 97.1 (3-4 waves) Util masteries - 119.1 (4 waves) Conclusions: For starters, we have to wonder whether or not 2x E's per minion wave is a good figure. For some of these builds it is clear that you could increase it to 3 per wave and still stay in lane an appreciable amount of time. If you're only doing 2, you definitely only need 1 Dorans Ring with Athene and Morello builds. I typically buy 2, but I also typically cast E on cooldown while in lane. A better benchmark might be to see how many E's per minion wave each build can sustain, and then look at how much damage threat each build has on the enemy champion based on that figure. So basically, given the above, and given utility masteries for the Athenes/Morellos builds to be as comparable as possible, this is how many minion waves you can stay in lane for with each build approximately. Athenes: 9-10 Morello: 7-8 Anti AD: 5-6 Velocirapture: 4 One way of looking at this is that Velociraptures build can stay in lane another 48 seconds for each mana potion used, so 2-3 mana pots puts his build around a similar level as the Athenes/Morellos builds. This means that in order to stay comparable, he has to spend gold worth maybe half a CS per minion wave just in mana potions. In other words, in order for his build, which we've stated a primary advantage of is better waveclear, to be better at waveclearing, it has to result in an average CS increase of at least 1 per minute. I would be willing to bet that it does not do that, so based on this and the replays that I saw, I'm willing to bet that this build is not significantly better at waveclear than the others. It is probably similar, or situationally slightly better and situationally slightly worse. However, the more I look at it the more I actually really like Velociraptures build, but I think only for specific matchups. More on this later. I gotta get ready for work now, so we'll look at this more later  . | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Here is what I think about Velociraptures build. For waveclear, it is comparable to the other builds. While you do waveclear a little better and faster, especially after the two item timing, you lose gold by having to buy more mana potions, and the end result is a comparable amount of gold gained. An Athenes build could E each minion wave twice and have a similar mana consumption as Velociraptures build (I'll call it a Ludens build) Eing each minion wave once. So I don't think differences in waveclear are really worth much, before this 2 item timing. This is what I do think the differences are. Pros of the Ludens build: More gold in offensive stats - You're not spending gold on MR or Armor, which theoretically we like a lot for early teamfights. A strong 2 item timing - As stated before, the 2 item timing at about 25 minutes is quite good. A better late game - Getting CDR/level and Mana regen/level runes makes your 6 item stats better than they are with other builds. Better movespeed - This build spends a lot of gold on movespeed over resistances, so it may be good against champions who need to hit specific skillshots in order to kill you, or against champions that do not have dash abilities. Cons of the Ludens build: Worse early game - Per level runes coupled with gold inefficient early buys means you're more vulnerable and unable to apply as much threat in the first 10 minutes or so of the game. Worse lane harassment - Less mana regen means less available mana to throw E's at your opponent in lanes where you want to be a bully. Worse resistances - Vs. a champion who can close range and blow you up with point and click spells, this build doesn't offer as much defense, since it spends gold on movespeed instead of resistances. So the question is, what sort of a matchup do the pros really help Lux, while the cons aren't so big a deal? Matchups where: A - Lux isn't really able to apply much threat anyway, so losing some ability to threaten the enemy champion doesn't matter too much. B - Movespeed provides all the defense Lux needs in the lane. C - Lux cares more about the post 25 mins part of the game than parts prior to that. I think there are a number of matchups that are like this for Lux. The big one is Morgana, who I think is one of the hardest or possibly the hardest matchup in the game for her. Harassing Morgana is generally kind of pointless because you can never kill her, since she will black shield your snare and then avoid your ult. Even with a jungle gank killing her is often difficult. However, Morgana MUST hit a binding in order to kill you, so realistically movespeed should be all the defense you need. Further, early game against Morgana is typically just waveclear vs. waveclear (which Morgana wins in general), and Lux can out teamfight her later on in the game by just doing way more teamfight damage and mitigating Morganas damage with her AOE shield. In this kind of a matchup I think Velociraptures build is probably better than a conventional build. Other matchups where I think it might be better would be Twisted Fate, Master Yi and possibly Cho'Gath. Based on your individual playstyle, I might include some other matchups as well. What I would definitely not use this build against is against Assassins with point and click damage, such as Leblanc, Zed, Fiora, Fizz, Ekko, etc. I would also not use this build against champions with so many dashes that extra movespeed doesn't really give you any safety, such as Ahri or Kassadin. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
If you get 2x Dorans with your build, the mana regen is very similar to a standard Athenes build on 1x Dorans. Have you tried going 2x Dorans > Ludens > Sorc Shoes > Void Staff instead of 1x Dorans > Ludens > Deathcap? I realize that it doesn't hit the waveclear timing, but it probably waveclears equivalent to a conventional Athenes build, and does about 10% more teamfight damage at the 2 item timing (math below). It also lets you buy boots a lot faster. + Show Spoiler + Builds: Build 1 - 1x Dorans > Ludens > Deathcap > Boots = 7225g. Build 2 - 2x Dorans > Ludens > Sorc Shoes Void > Void Staff = 7400g. I'll assume these prices are fairly equivalent since the first build requires additional mana potions. Stats differences: Build 1 - 364.32 AP, 6%+7.83 pen, 392 movespeed Build 2 - 259.37 AP, 35%+6%+22.83 pen, 414 movespeed Damage differences: I'll look at 3 MR values. 30 (lowest possible) 42 (MR runes, probably the minimum standard) and 67 (minimum standard for somebody with a Chalice or a Hexdrinker or a Locket aura or something like that) E damage vs. 30 MR Build 1 - 494.32 Build 2 - 521.55 (5.3% more) E damage vs. 42 MR Build 1 - 451.97 Build 2 - 507.19 (10.9% more) E damage vs. 67 MR Build 1 - 383.51 Build 2 - 465.69 (17.7% more) But wait, there's more! + Show Spoiler + Also, because I know somebody is going to be like "But the Deathcap build hits the 2 item damage timing 325 gold faster", here's what the values look like at that timing. Build 1 - 1x Dorans > Ludens > Deathcap > Boots = 6900g. Build 2 - 2x Dorans > Ludens > Sorc Shoes > Blasting Wand + Amp Tome = 6185g. Stats differences: Build 1 - 364.32 AP, 6%+7.83 pen, 365 movespeed Build 2 - 238.37 AP, 6%+22.83 pen, 414 movespeed Damage differences: E damage vs. 30 MR Build 1 - 494.32 (2.7% more) Build 2 - 481.02 E damage vs. 42 MR Build 1 - 451.97 (3.8% more) Build 2 - 434.81 E damage vs 67 MR Build 1 - 383.51 (5.7% more) Build 2 - 361.96 So at 6900g the first build does slightly more damage than the second does at 6200g, but the second build overtakes it significantly when Void Staff is finished at 7400g. But wait! Here's even more. + Show Spoiler + Build 1 - 1x Dorans > Ludens > NLR > Amp Tome = 5035g. Build 2 - 2x Dorans > Ludens > Sorc Shoes = 4900g. Stats differences: Build 1 - 259.37 AP, 6%+7.83 pen, 365 movespeed Build 2 - 175.37 AP, 6%+22.83 pen, 414 movespeed Damage differences: E damage vs. 30 MR Build 1 - 433.29 Build 2 - 439.16 (1.4% more) E damage vs. 42 MR Build 1 - 396.16 Build 2 - 396.65 (0.2% more) E damage vs 67 MR Build 1 - 336.15 (1.8% more) Build 2 - 330.18 So ultimately we can say these things about these two builds: Both builds maintain similar damage values till about 7000-7400g, where build 1 starts doing more vs. minions (one shotting them with E), and build 2 starts doing about 10% more teamfight damage. Both builds have similar defenses. Build 2 has 60 more HP, but Build 1 gets about the same amount through more AP on the shield. Build 2 has more movespeed and more mana regen, and gets those bonuses quite early. But wait, here's even more! + Show Spoiler + Here's comparison numbers for our conventional builds in the guide at their 7000ish gold timing: Build 3 - 1x Dorans > Athenes > Sorc Shoes > Void > Amp Tome = 7135g Build 4 - 2x Dorans > Armguard > Morello > Sorc Shoes > Zhonya = 7200g Stats differences: Build 1 - 364.32 AP, 6%+7.83 pen, 392 movespeed Build 2 - 259.37 AP, 35%+6%+22.83 pen, 414 movespeed Build 3 - 222.62 AP, 35%+6%+22.83 pen, 376 movespeed, 37 MR, 9 Armor Build 4 - 259.37 AP, 6%+22.83 pen, 376 movespeed, 54 Armor, Zhonya+Morello effects Damage Differences: E damage vs. 30 MR Build 1 - 494.32 (94.7% of build 2) Build 2 - 521.55 Build 3 - 363.57 (69.7% of build 2, 73.5% of 1) Build 4 - 375.45 (71.9% of build 2, 75.9% of 1) E damage vs. 42 MR Build 1 - 451.97 (89.1% of build 2) Build 2 - 507.19 Build 3 - 353.55 (69.7% of build 2, 78.2% of 1) Build 4 - 339.15 (66.8% of build 2, 75.0% of 1) E damage vs. 67 MR Build 1 - 383.51 (82.3% of build 2) Build 2 - 465.69 Build 3 - 307.83 (69.7% of build 2, 80.2% of 1) Build 4 - 282.28 (60.6% of build 2, 73.6% of 1) So, as we can see, the Ludens builds E damage is significantly higher because of the Ludens proc. This isn't surprising, since builds 3 and 4 put a lot of gold into resistances that builds 1 and 2 do not. I want to see the full teamfight combo damage though, since that will be a closer comparison. Just looking at E weights things pretty heavily towards builds that have Ludens. We'll look at a level 11 combo (888+2.25 AP) Combo Damage Differences: Combo damage vs. 30 MR Build 1 - 1532.06 (96.5% of build 2) Build 2 - 1587.51 Build 3 - 1388.89 (87.4% of build 2, 86.0% of 1) Build 4 - 1396.58 (87.9% of build 2, 91.1% of 1) Combo damage vs. 42 MR Build 1 - 1400.79 (90.7% of build 2) Build 2 - 1543.78 Build 3 - 1350.63 (87.4% of build 2, 96.4% of 1) Build 4 - 1261.53 (81.7% of build 2, 90.0% of 1) Combo damage vs. 67 MR Build 1 - 1188.62 (88.4% of build 2) Build 2 - 1344.12 Build 3 - 1175.96 (87.4% of build 2, 98.9% of 1) Build 4 - 1050.00 (78.1% of build 2, 88.3% of 1) So the difference between builds 2 and builds 3 and 4 is still significant, but not anywhere near as significant as the simple E damage is. Based on this, I'd also be really interested in how our build 2 fared against a champion who is all skillshots, such as a Xerath or a Ziggs, where movespeed helps mitigate your damage taken and you can win the long range damage skillshot fight. I think I'd still prefer builds 3 and 4 over build 2 against point and click damage Assassins to prevent them from killing you in lane. For example, against an AP Assassin, while your build 3 combo is doing probably 87% as much damage to them, they are only doing 77% as much damage to you. Against an AD Assassin, you are doing 81% as much damage to them, but they are only doing 74% as much damage to you, and you've got Zhonyas. Build 1 noticeably does not have significantly different teamfight damage from build 3, possibly as much as 5% higher. While its harassment (E only) damage is higher, it does not appear to give you the mana necessary to sustain such harassment. | ||
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Velocirapture
United States983 Posts
Feel free to favor penetration advantage over AP advantage just keep in mind that the ludens power spike can only make delaying CDR/mana tenable for so long. Going double dorans>Ludens>sorc>void gives you 280 AP (@ level 18 so probably less in a game) at 7400 gold not counting any consumables so I suspect minions may start taking 3 illuminations lol. I would watch a replay of it if only to see how hoe the combo holds up. | ||
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