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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
The AP values are similar to standard builds (slightly higher). I don't think farming would be any different than a standard build. It wouldn't be as easy as going Deathcap second, but I'm not convinced with how significant that is. I'd love to see a replay of 2x Dorans > Ludens > Sorcs > Void against somebody like TF, Morgana, Master Yi (lol when is the last time anybody played against Yi mid), Cho, Xerath, Ziggs or Brand. Possibly also Azir not sure. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I need to do some new Liandry math. Liandry is the worst item when it comes to math though. Fuck Liandry. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35147 Posts
On August 19 2015 09:24 Ketara wrote: With a little help from Gahlo, I am going to make a spreadsheet where all you have to do is plug in stat values like AP and CDR and Mpen and target MR, and it will tell you the damage and DPS values for every reasonable Lux combo I can think of. Gobble gave you the Lux calculator. I gave you the Liandry tick calc. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Yours has mpen calculations I can just paste into other stuff! You'll see it'll be epic. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Pretty sure we will never have to do Lux math ever again. | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2603 Posts
How much does it help Lux? | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
With my fancy new Lux spreadsheet, we can see that the mana reduction late game won't have a huge effect. In a typical late game Lux build it ups the amount of time she can stay in a teamfight from 46 seconds to 50 seconds, not major. And it won't help early game since you level Q second. The damage difference is fairly inconsequential I think. The damage of the second Q hit isn't a big part of her overall damage. The snare duration is difficult to quantify, and may be a pretty big deal. In a teamfight situation it's not so big because if you snare the right target even for one second you can ult them and your team can engage. But for early game what it does is increases the amount of pressure Lux places on the lane, because you can Q through a minion and still get the full damage/duration. You can do this trick already and if you do it at the right time, to set up a gank or when your minion wave is about to push (Q kills the last of their minions, snares them behind it and then your minions push up and do free damage) it can be very strong even on a 1 second snare. Doubling the snare time makes it even scarier. It especially will add pressure in a duo lane, since the enemy Support can't block the snare from hitting the ADC and you can potentially snare both of them for 2 seconds. Since Support Lux doesn't have to level E, if the reduction in mana cost lets her level Q over W it might make her a lot more threatening. I doubt that'd be enough to turn Lux Support into a first tier pick because AP Mage Supports like Zyra/Velkoz/Brand/whatever are currently frowned on anyway, but it'd certainly give her a boost in comparison to the other AP Mage Supports. That'd be my first guess, we'll have to see if it makes it to live. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
We're going to play with my fancy Lux spreadsheet. I want to look at what gives Lux the most damage at different numbers of items. We're gonna look at our five big damage items, Morello, Liandry, Ludens, Void and Deathcap. For 1 item? Lets assume that she gets her first big item finished by level 9 and has sorc shoes. Target MR is 42 and we will ignore Liandry burn unless it appears to break a tie. + Show Spoiler + Morello + NLR, 3500g Poke damage: 319 Poke DPS: 47 Teamfight Burst: 1049 Teamfight DPS: 116 Shield value: 303 Shielding per second: 32 Liandry + Amp Tome, 3435g Poke damage: 338 Poke DPS: 39 Teamfight Burst: 1099 Teamfight DPS: 96 Shield value: 272 Shielding per second: 19 Void + Fiendish Codex, 3320g Poke damage: 341 Poke DPS: 44 Teamfight Burst: 1112 Teamfight DPS: 107 Shield value: 280 Shielding per second: 26 Ludens + Amp Tome, 3435g Poke damage: 438 Poke DPS: 49 Teamfight Burst: 1125 Teamfight DPS: 101 Shield value: 288 Shielding per second: 24 Deathcap, 3500g Poke damage: 341 Poke DPS: 39 Teamfight Burst: 1131 Teamfight DPS: 100 Shield value: 333 Shielding per second: 27 1 Item Winners Poke damage - Ludens #1 by a lot Burst damage - Deathcap #1, Ludens #2 Sustained damage - Morello #1, Ludens #2 Overall winner - Ludens Echo, IMO. How about 2 items? Now we're level 13 and our target has a Locket aura. We will remove Liandry from the running since Void already beat it and target MR has gone up. + Show Spoiler + Ludens + Morello + NLR, 6500g Poke damage: 468 Poke DPS: 72 Teamfight Burst: 1492 Teamfight DPS: 195 Shield value: 384 Shielding per second: 43 Ludens + Void + Fiendish Codex, 6320g Poke damage: 521 Poke DPS: 69 Teamfight Burst: 1662 Teamfight DPS: 189 Shield value: 361 Shielding per second: 36 Ludens + Deathcap, 6500g Poke damage: 520 Poke DPS: 61 Teamfight Burst: 1650 Teamfight DPS: 170 Shield value: 441 Shielding per second: 37 2 Item Winners Poke damage - LudenVoid #1, LudenHat #2 Burst damage - LudenVoid #1, LudenHat #2 Sustained damage - LudenMorello #1, LudenVoid #2 Overall winner - Ludens Echo + Void Staff, IMO. Now, by 3 items you probably have to have a mana regen item. So we can assume that your third item must be Morello. 3 items - LudenVoidMorello. 4 items we did earlier today in the GD thread, fourth item is Deathcap. 4 items - LudenVoidMorelloDeathcap And by 5 items we have all 5 of them. 5 items - LudenVoidMorelloDeathcapLiandry Tadaa! Now you have the highest damage power curve possible for Lux. Does this help you make builds? Possibly! Possibly not! Some questions still remain. Does LudenDeathcapMorello outdamage LudenVoidMorello? (probably not) How much mana regen do you actually need?!?!?! For the answers to these burning questions we'll have to tune in next time. Either way, thank you based spreadsheet. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
The big question was the mana regen issue, I want to look at that. We'll compare two builds. Build #1, level 9 Athenes + Dring + Boots, 3425g. Mpen + Armor + CDR/level + AP runes 21/0/9 Build #2, level 9 Ludens+Dring, 3400g. Mpen + Mregen/level + CDR/level + AP runes 21/0/9 First we look at damage. We're pretty confident the Ludens build is going to win here. + Show Spoiler + Athenes Build Poke Damage: 242 Poke DPS: 36 Teamfight Burst: 775 Teamfight DPS: 84 Ludens Build Poke Damage: 365 Poke DPS: 42 Teamfight Burst: 956 Teamfight DPS: 85 So their sustained teamfight damage is roughly the same, Ludens having a slight edge. But Ludens clearly has more burst. We're not surprised. The next bits are where I'm more interested. Lets look at regen stats. I'm gonna assume 1 mana pot for each guy: + Show Spoiler + Athenes Build At 3 E's per minion wave, 163 seconds before OOM At 2 E's per minion wave, 528 seconds before OOM At 1 E per minion wave - Infinite Sustainable Harass Damage - 4 DPS Ludens Build At 3 E's per minion wave, 114 seconds before OOM At 2 E's per minion wave, 220 seconds before OOM At 1 E per minion wave - Basically Infinite Sustainable Harass Damage - 0 This is I think a big deal. We've said that the big draw to Velociraptures build is that he only needs to E each minion wave once to clear the caster minions. Well according to this, if the Athenes build E's each minion wave twice (which kills all 6 minions not just the casters) it can still stay in lane for up to 10 minutes, which is longer than you would want to stay in lane anyway. So it appears that the Athenes build actually waveclears better than the Ludens build. And the Athenes build is also better able to sustain harass damage on the enemy champion. But the Ludens build does more damage so its stronger in an all in, right? Lets look at some defensive stats and then put that together. + Show Spoiler + Athenes Build: 1563 (base) + 352 (shield) + 401 (barrier) EHP vs. Magic 1427 (base) + 321 (shield) + 366 (barrier) EHP vs. Physical Total: 2316 EHP vs. Magic, 2114 EHP vs. Physical Movespeed: 356 Ludens Build: 1312 (base) + 333 (shield) + 337 (barrier) EHP vs. Magic 1368 (base) + 348 (shield) + 351 (barrier) EHP vs. Physical Total: 1982 EHP vs. Magic, 2067 EHP vs. Physical Movespeed: 364 It's really difficult to figure out how much the EHP matters if we don't know our opponent and how much damage they can do to us. However, we can see what would happen if these two Lux's were to fight each other. Neither one can kill the other in a combo. AthenesLux's combo does 1038, leaving LudensLux at 944 EHP. LudensLux's combo does 1280, leaving AthenesLux at 1036 EHP. AthenesLux sustained damage is roughly equal to LudensLux, and her ability to do harassment damage in the lane is higher, so we can say with some certainty that given equal play, AthenesLux outlanes LudensLux. That doesn't tell the whole story though, I want to see one more thing. How much damage do these two do to a typical enemy ADC? I'm gonna look at your typical level 8 Ezreal in a teamfight situation. He's got 42 MR and 1011.46 HP. This is also a big deal. Neither of these builds can one shot the Ezreal at this level. The Ludens build admittedly comes reeeeeeal close though, as long as the Ezreal doesn't have his Heal available. So, these numbers don't tell the whole story. What's more interesting is the 2 item power spike, where the Ludens build gets a lot of synergy while the Athenes build just sort of buys Void and waits for the 3 item power spike. It may well be worth it to guzzle mana potions until you hit that power spike in certain matchups. So lets look at the damage difference of the 2 item powerspikes. Ludens+Deathcap vs. Athenes+Void+Sorc Shoes. Target has a Locket aura by 2 items so 57 MR. I'm also going to add in a third "build", to see how the AthenesVoid build compares if it used its lane pressure advantage in the early game to get a slight lead and also buy an Amp Tome. + Show Spoiler + Athenes+Void+Sorc: Poke Damage: 334 Poke DPS: 52 Teamfight Burst: 1358 Teamfight DPS: 171 Athenes+Void+Sorc+AmpTome: Poke Damage: 347 Poke DPS: 55 Teamfight Burst: 1413 Teamfight DPS: 182 Ludens+Hat Poke Damage: 467 Poke DPS: 55 Teamfight Burst: 1482 Teamfight DPS: 153 So LudenHat Lux does about 10% more burst damage, while AtheneVoid Lux does about 15% more sustained damage. AtheneVoid Lux with the extra gold from her early game lead closes the gaps some, she's losing in burst by about 5% but winning in sustained by about 20%. Burst damage is I think more valuable than sustained damage, esp. for Lux, and LudenHat Lux's shields are a LOT stronger (441 vs. 306 / 372) so I think we can say that LudenHat Lux comes out ahead here. But it's not as obvious as might be expected, and she's only very slightly ahead of the AtheneVoid Lux who got a lane advantage. Our defensive stats haven't really changed so I'll forego doing that comparison, although now AtheneVoid Lux has more movespeed instead of the other way around. If they were to fight each other 1v1 AtheneVoid Lux is still going to win, although at this point it's not like you're actually fighting the enemy mid 1v1 anymore. The regen has changed slightly since the per level seals are getting more valuable for LudenHat Lux, but the differences between the two are still fairly similar. But because of the deathcap, LudenHat Lux is now clearing much faster and more efficiently. Conclusions: As long as we're talking about things pre-6500 gold, I think the lovely spreadsheet supports my hypothesis that a conventional build is stronger than Velociraptures build. However, at the same time, it appears that once Velociraptures build hits the 2 item spike, it becomes stronger, both in terms of waveclear/mana efficiency and in terms of teamfight power. While AthenesVoid Lux probably still does better in a 1v1 with the enemy mid due to her higher defensive stats, at this stage in the game you're not likely to get into such a 1v1 anymore. Of particular note is that even if AtheneVoid Lux uses her advantage to get ahead in gold and is an Amp Tome up on LudenHat Lux, LudenHat Lux is still coming out even to very slightly ahead depending on how you look at it. The key thing for me is that most of the early game advantages of the Athenes build are based on an assumption that you're going to be aggressive and try to get ahead in the lane by fighting the enemy champion, or the enemy champion is going to do the same to you. If neither of you have the opportunity to get ahead in lane and plan on playing passive till the two item powerspike, this math seems to favor Velociraptures build. Later I'll look at 3 item power spikes, where I have a suspicion that the Athenes Lux is going to come out ahead. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Now we're at Athenes + Void + Sorc Shoes + Deathcap (9,900g) vs. Ludens + Deathcap + Morellos + Sorc Shoes (10,000g) I'm gonna guess we're at level 16 by now? I don't know. Here's our damage figures: + Show Spoiler + Athenes Lux Poke damage: 476 Poke DPS: 77 Teamfight burst: 2001 Teamfight DPS: 273 Velocirapture Lux Poke damage: 538 Poke DPS: 86 Teamfight burst: 1768 Teamfight DPS: 244 So it's kind of all over the place. Velociraptures build is about 12% higher in poke damage, while a standard build is about 15% higher in both burst and sustained damage once the teamfight actually starts. Their shielding values are more or less the same now. So basically Velociraptures build at items favors siege and poke wars, while a conventional build favors all in fights. The defensive stats tell a similar story. The conventional build has higher resistances and better EHP, which would favor defense against people diving on you, while Velociraptures build has higher movespeed, which would favor sieges and poke wars. The regen stats are getting closer to each other. Conventional Lux stays in a teamfight 36 seconds, Velocirapture Lux 34. Conventional Lux can sustain 34 DPS in a siege without losing mana, Velocirapture 32. We can safely say their mana pools are fairly identical, with Conventional Lux slightly ahead due to Athenes unique passive. What's interesting about this to me is that if we follow this logic from where we started, the kind of matchups where you'd play passive and farm would normally be against safe poke champions, meaning teamfights later in the game are more likely to be poke wars, making Velociraptures build satisfactorily even early in the game, but better at the 2 and 3 item timings. The matchups where you want to or have to go head to head with the enemy mid are also probably matchups where teamfights later on will be less siege-centric and more dive-centric, meaning that in these situations the conventional build is better at 1 item, basically even at 2 items, and then better again at 3 items. So, after all this blah blah blah lecturing my audience of zero people, we end up with a confirmation of basically what I hypothesized when we talked about it a couple weeks ago. Only now I have a cool spreadsheet. Hooray! | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
It's bad enough that I think champs that need the passive (which may include Lux? Don't play her enough outside ARAM l0l) are at a notable disadvantage. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Chalice is still really good. If you look at Morellos + Null Mantle vs. Athenes on Lux, Athenes can stay in lane at 3 E's per wave for like 5 minion waves whereas Morellos can only do about 3. Their mana pool in a teamfight looks pretty similar on paper until somebody dies and Athenes gives its big snowbally mana boost. The costs are similar, if you get a Mantle the MR is the same. You're basically deciding between 20 AP or more mana regen. For Lux, her AP ratios are below average and her mana costs are above average, so the Athenes is justified. For champions with better ratios, Morellos is going to be the better pick. I honestly think the two items are fairly balanced right now. I think it's more a problem of perspective. It's easy to see 20 AP as being a big deal, but having more mana regen is more subtle and difficult to notice how much of a difference it's making. In terms of mana efficiency, an Athenes Lux actually does more damage in lane than a Morello Lux, because she's able to cast E more often. | ||
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Ethelis
United States2396 Posts
 ). | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I asked about Ludens + Void + Sorc Shoes vs. Ludens + Deathcap, right. Lets look at the 2 and 3 item timings for that and see how it compares damage wise. + Show Spoiler + Ludens + Void + Sorc Shoes Poke damage: 496 Poke DPS: 59 Teamfight Burst: 1587 Teamfight DPS: 159 Ludens + Void + Sorc Shoes + Morellos + Blasting Wand Poke damage: 596 Poke DPS: 96 Teamfight Burst: 2007 Teamfight DPS: 275 So the teamfight burst and poke damage at 2 items are about 7-10% higher than the Velocirapture build. The sustained damages are very similar. Notably, if you were attacking tanky targets, the Void build would be performing much better. At 3 items, it's performing significantly better in damage. The 2nd item timing also has much more movespeed. The tradeoffs are that Velociraptures build clears better, and also has significantly better shields. So I'm not sure on this one. It probably depends on how much you need the waveclear. If you don't need the help waveclearing, the Void build does more damage, especially at the 3 item timing. But if you do need more help waveclearing, the better shields on the Deathcap build probably make up for the loss in damage. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
I don't have any hard data to back it up, but it feels like teams get control of the game generally 10-15 minutes prior to ending (sometimes longer e.g 5 dragon control timings, sometimes sooner due to 50/50 late game teamfight games). It's just a thought that I've had regarding why specific champs are good (numbers aside) and why specific builds are good. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
In terms of Luxs personal power curve, she tends to be really strong levels 1-3, then calms down 4-6, then picks up again 7-11. Her strongest points are probably levels 3 and 11. After 13 her damage starts to drop off and she becomes more about utility and her sieging than overall teamfight damage. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Best 6th defensive item for teh Lux, post defensive item rearranging in the most recent patch. If your 5th item is a Zhonyas: + Show Spoiler + EHP vs. Phys Dead Mans Plate: 7584 Randuins Omen: 7361 Frozen Heart: 7019 Guardian Angel: 6300 + 1169 Locket: 6558 Banshees Veil: 6227 Spirit Visage: 6136 EHP vs. Magic Banshees Veil: 5381 Spirit Visage: 5302 Locket: 5110 Guardian Angel: 4487 + 833 Dead Mans Plate: 4320 Randuins Omen: 4076 Frozen Heart: 3588 [b]EHP vs. Mixed Damage (50/50 split) Dead Mans Plate: 5952 Locket: 5834 Banshees Veil: 5804 Spirit Visage: 5719 Randuins Omen: 5718 Guardian Angel: 5393 + 1001 Frozen Heart: 5303 I was gonna do some more math with 5th item Liandry and 5th item Ludens Echo but... Fuck it honestly, this is pretty telling. For Armor, the three big items (Randuins, FH, Dead Mans Plate) are all pretty similar. Similar enough that really which one you're buying is going to be based on the other stats. Is the movespeed on DMP really good? I dunno, it might be. Are the anti crit and anti AS passives on Randuins really good? Yes they're actually really good, especially vs. certain enemy teams. The active on Randuins is kinda crap, but whatever. Is the CDR on FH really good? Yes, if you need CDR. For magic, Spirit Visage is unsurprisedly pretty crap. I used to like Locket a lot more, but it got nerfed a little and Banshee got buffed a little. So I'd probably only go Locket now if you need the team aura. Banshee being better EHP even without the spell shield is kind of a big deal. If you want both Armor and MR, I'm not really sure what's best. Possibly Banshee? This is where it might depend on whether or not you have Zhonyas. Some quick math on the difference between that Zhonyas and the Liandry's says it's not going to change these numbers more than about 100, so I think it's prob fine. So I think if you want mixed resistances basically any of the big items that have both HP and a Resistance (DMP, Randuin, Banshee) are fine. Buy one based on what passive you want, or make a best guess on whether or not you're taking more magic damage or more physical. Guardian Angel is a trap buy, it's only competitive when you get the revive which is typically not every fight, and the revive is bad on Lux because her skills all have cast times and her cooldowns are often not up when she revives anyway, so even though it's more total EHP when you get a revive, it's not actually useful EHP unless your team wins the fight while you're reviving. If you have Liandry's as your 5th item it helps GA a little in comparison to the others, but not enough for it to matter. Frozen Heart used to be a really good defensive buy on Lux, but is now only good if A - You want the CDR, and also B - You're taking mostly physical damage. So it's probably good in our Anti AD build, but not good in the other builds. | ||
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