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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
The sustained damage is just the maximum possible DPS you can do if you're doing everything perfectly. The sustained harass damage is how much damage you can do with E without your mana going down prior to a teamfight. If you E on CD you can do more damage with CDR boots, but you're also casting more spells so you lose mana faster. So it's not a calculation of the maximum possible harass damage, it's a calculation of how mana efficient your harass damage is. | ||
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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Inflicted
Australia18228 Posts
I know Sorc boots would be better for damage on Lux but the Ludens build delays the second Dcap/Void item by 2300g. I'd imagine getting an earlier Dcap/Void would make up for the loss damage from Lucidity vs Sorcs | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Caiada is right though. The more CDR you have, the more mana regen you need. | ||
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Inflicted
Australia18228 Posts
On September 03 2015 23:16 Ketara wrote: I don't think I really understand what you're suggesting, Inflicted. Caiada is right though. The more CDR you have, the more mana regen you need. The build goes: - 1st Ludens Echo - 2nd Deathcap (for farming) or Void+Sorc Shoes (for teamfights) - Sorc Shoes when appropriate (can be delayed in this build) - 3rd Morellonomicon / Athenes (Morello more offensive, Athenes more defensive) - 4th Finish Deathcap+Void What I suggested was: - 1st Ludens Echo - 2nd Deathcap/Void - 3rd Lucidity - 4th Finish Deathcap+Void So you'd get an earlier Deathcap/Void at the cost of your manaregen and no Sorc boots | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
For starters, lets ignore mana regen issues just for a second, I'll get to them later in the post. Even assuming that A - there are no mana problems, and B - this gives you a stronger damage timing at the item point you suggested, this makes our final build awkward. As I said in the previous post, one of the big problems with Lucidity Boots is you can't get Mpen with runes/masteries. If you're going to get Morello later on anyway, you're going to have to get different runes, since your CDR/level runes are no longer helpful. So late game what you're doing is trading 15 Mpen for either 12 MR or 27 AP. 15 Mpen is more valuable than either of these things by a wide margin. If you elect to not get the Morello at all (again ignoring mana regen issues) so that you can do Lucidity + CDR runes + some other item, there is no other item that gives you enough damage to account for that lost 15 Mpen and 5% CDR. As we saw earlier when I talked about Zekes Harbinger on Lux, late game the 15 Mpen is more damage than 100 AP, so even a fully stacked Mejais + Lucidity would not outdamage Morello + Sorcs. So, problem #1 is that this makes our late game item build very awkward and inefficient. After that, the idea that this gives us a stronger item timing is questionable. Looking at the item timing where we have Luden+Hat+Lucidity+Void vs. Luden+Hat+Sorc+Morello, this is the difference in stats (again, ignoring regen for now). Ludens build +15 flat Mpen +5% CDR +Morello Passive Inflicted build +35% Mpen So the thing here is that 15 Mpen is actually about the same as 35% Mpen for most MR values you're likely to encounter at this item level. They're likely to have a Locket passive in teamfights by then so the MR values that you're probably looking at are something like 45-100. 45 Minimum 57 + MR runes 70 + Chalice / Hexdrinker 100 tanky melee champ At 57 MR, Void is 4 more Mpen than Sorc. At 70 it's 8 more. At 45 MR Sorc is actually better. So while the earlier Void here is helping you against tanks, against squishies it's really fairly similar, with you losing out on 5% CDR and the Morello passive. Here's how that disparity looks in math, looking at 57 MR. + Show Spoiler + Burst Damage Ludens - 1993 Inflicted - 2053 Sustained DPS Ludens - 330 Inflicted - 319 So, at this level Inflicteds build is 3% better at burst and 3% worse at sustained. As we've said before we value burst damage more than sustained damage, so this is a little bit of an improvement, but not much of one. Against tanky targets it'd be a bigger improvement, but against a squishier target Sorcs would actually be superior in both categories. And the issue with trading sustained damage for burst against tanks is that the tankier the target is the longer it takes you to kill them, so the less burst matters and the more sustained matters. So, problem #2 is that the idea that this gives us a stronger item timing at the 10kish gold value is debatable. Depending on the enemy team it may be slightly stronger, but I do not think it will ever be significantly stronger. So, then we get to problem #3, which is the regen. Here's some math on the regen: + Show Spoiler + Teamfight time before OOM Ludens - 37 seconds Inflicted - 37 seconds Laning time before OOM (3 E's per wave) Ludens - 554 seconds Inflicted - 157 seconds Laning time before OOM (2 E's per wave) Ludens - Infinite Inflicted - 654 seconds Efficient Sustainable Harass Damage (Teamfight) Ludens - 48 DPS Inflicted - 31 DPS Efficient Sustainable Harass Damage (Laning) Ludens - 32 DPS Inflicted - 13 DPS So, as we can see, while you can stay in a teamfight for just as long due to the lower CDR, when you're laning the Ludens build can do 3 E's per minion wave and be about as mana efficient as the suggested build doing 2. The difference in the amount of harass damage you can put out is tremendous, the Ludens build is 146% better when laning. In a teamfight it's 54% better. So, problem #3 is that the lost mana regen is actually a pretty big deal. Problem #4 is that losing out on that 5% CDR means you have less utility (fewer snares, fewer shields) which isn't represented in math but is a problem. Conclusions So, ultimately this build makes your late game significantly worse, gives you significant mana regen issues, and lowers your utility, for teamfight damage at the 10k gold timing only that is debatably something like 2-4% better depending on the enemy team comp. I hope this answers your question Inflicted. | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2605 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mLsN9C7.png?1) Ketara what have you done ... | ||
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ConanTroutman
Canada67 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
She's good both with and against champions like Darius/Garen/Skarner etc. | ||
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Fildun
Netherlands4123 Posts
I also never build zhonyas unless I'm vs zed or something like that, wouldn't Ludens just be flat better in those scenarios? Or maybe even Rylais for the slow? | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
and rylai's aint the best on her since she's already got a slow and a snare | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2605 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I'm not going to outright say that Rylais is a bad item, because its stats are pretty good. But for Lux it should always be inferior to Liandry. You don't get any added CC on your Q or W, your E already has a 0.25s slow after it damages so you only get 75% effectiveness on that, and while you get the slow on your R, you typically only R CC'd targets in the first place. I mean even if you assumed the Rylais slow is the same value as the Liandry burn (Liandry burn is pretty crap too) you're talking 100 HP vs. 15 Mpen, and 15 Mpen is just so much more valuable. Liandry build path is also much smoother. If you already have Liandry, either Zhonya or Ludens should be better than Rylai based on what you want. Zhonya should be better at defense, and Ludens should be better at offense. I can imagine there'd be a hypothetical game where you need extra CC so badly that Rylai becomes an acceptable choice (Fiora top, Garen jungle, Morde ADC?), but the circumstances would be so unlikely that unless you're diamond+ and making a really well thought out, intelligent item decision I'd suggest just not doing it. For Zhonya? First of all, you don't want to trick yourself with the statement "Ludens is better than Zhonya", because you have the ability to get both in your build. Zhonya doesn't need to be more valuable than Ludens to buy, it needs to be more valuable than either Ludens OR Liandry for that particular game. Basically if it's more valuable than the weaker of those two, it's worth getting. It's less damage than either of them, obviously. And the active is not as good on Lux as it is on most champions. But against AD, the 50 armor is really valuable. Lux likes resists much more than HP because she'll be running around with a giant shield and defensive summoners. Lets compare the defensive value of Zhonya to the afformentioned Rylais. EHP vs. AD Zhonya: 5930 Rylai: 5606 Liandry: 5417 That's after counting LW armor pen, remember. So even after a LW the Zhonya is still 6% better than Rylais and 9% better than Liandry. And this is assuming you only get to shield yourself once in the fight. Every subsequent shield adds another 300 EHP in favor of Zhonya. A Locket shield from your team adds another 70. Heal from your ADC another 100. Any survivability from your Supports kit are more valuable, and so on. And even though the Zhonya active isn't super high value on Lux, it's still more value than the Rylai slow which as we said above is almost useless. Especially against a couple specific AD champions like Zed or Vi. If you're taking mostly AP damage, the Zhonya armor isn't any good. Either Liandry for more HP or Ludens for more movespeed to dodge skillshots and position better will in most cases be better, or Banshee/Banner of Command if you're really desperate for defense. But what's funny about Zhonya is that the active is actually pretty good against certain APs too, because they have burst with projectiles that you can dodge with it. A list of AP champions where the Zhonya active lets you dodge most of their burst is something like: + Show Spoiler + Fiddlesticks Fizz Karthus Katarina Kennen Lux (lol) Syndra Velkoz Vladimir So that's actually quite a lot of value vs. a good number of APs as well. APs who aren't on this list are generally either all skillshots or low range, so Ludens is actually a really good item against them defensively, making Ludens+Liandry probably better defensively than Rylai+Liandry. The Zhonya active also just gets more valuable the more dive the enemy team has, while the Ludens added sieging ability gets less valuable the more dive the enemy team has. So there are lots of potential games where I think either Zhonya + Liandry or Zhonya + Ludens is a perfectly good final two items. But you're in general correct that since the AP itemization changes, Zhonyas is no longer an obvious pickup, and you sort of need to have a reason to get it over Ludens + Liandry. Ludens + Liandry is probably your default setup. There are just lots of potential reasons why you'd add in the Zhonya. For AP Blues? AP blues are a perfectly acceptable rune choice. There's nothing bad about them. The reason I don't have them listed in the guide is because I think in nearly every situation something else is a little bit better. I'll explain. Lets assume that what you want is late game power. I'd say CDR/level blues are better. Here's some math given a normal Athenes build: + Show Spoiler + Teamfight Time Before OOM AP/lvl: 50 seconds CDR/lvl: 37 seconds Efficient Sustainable Harass Damage AP/lvl: 73 DPS CDR/lvl: 70 DPS Burst Damage AP/lvl: 2820 CDR/lvl: 2728 Sustained Damage AP/lvl: 381 CDR/lvl: 439 So first off, while the Teamfight before OOM calc favors AP/lvl heavily, I'm going to argue that 37 seconds is enough time for the majority of late game teamfights, especially when you have Dangerous Game / Athenes to push that a bit higher, so it's really not much added value there. Basically anything over 35 seconds I wouldn't really be concerned, that's enough time to get a second ult which is generally what will end a fight if it hasn't ended yet. So what we get for results is as follows. Harass: +4% AP Burst: +3% AP Sustained: +15% CDR Basically, even though I think we value burst and harass damage more than sustained damage, I think +15% sustained is more value than +3% burst. Especially when you factor in having more utility value from more snares and shields and so on. It'd be neat if I could put a number value on utility, I'd like that. Prob can't tho. So, for late game CDR/level beats AP/level. The exception here is if you're vs. a Mundo or Vladimir or something and want to go Athene+Morello for max CDR and the Morello passive, in which case AP/level runes are better. So how about for early game? For this we're going to examine the effect of AP/level blues vs. Mana Regen blues and MR blues. We'll take level 9 when these runes would be equal, flat runes will obviously be better levels 1-6. + Show Spoiler [ AP vs. MR, Athenes build] + Efficient Sustainable Harass Damage AP: 6.168 MR: 6.164 Burst Damage AP: 748 MR: 723 EHP vs. Magic AP: 2257 MR: 2418 So, if you're against an AP champion, the difference in damage by taking AP/level at this low level is negligable. Your in lane harass is basically identical, because what's constraining your harass damage at this level is your mana regen, not your AP. The difference is so small that any increased harass can basically be cancelled out by increased EHP you're getting from your health regen with MR runes. You do get 25 more burst damage in a combo, but your EHP is 161 higher with the MR, because you get so much added value from MR on your shield and defensive summoner. If you use a potion during the fight you get 18 more EHP from that as well. So your in lane harass is the same, but in an all in situation MR runes are actually way better. Even if only 25% of the damage you take is Magic (got ganked by an AD jungler), they're still outperforming AP runes. Now, there are a few champions, such as Ryze and Mordekaiser, where if you play well you should basically never take damage in lane, meaning there's an argument for early game AP runes for more damage. But even in these situations Mana Regen runes would perform better for damage (as we'll see below), and these champions you will slaughter in lane regardless of your runes, so you're probably better off taking CDR runes for a late game setup as these champions are usually really strong late game. What if you're against an AD? + Show Spoiler [ AP vs. MRegen, Armguard build] + Laning Time Before OOM (3 E's per wave) AP: 105 seconds Regen: 128 seconds Laning Time Before OOM (2 E's per wave) AP: 371 seconds Regen: 1035 seconds Efficient Sustainable Harass Damage AP: 3.15 Regen: 4.8 Burst Damage AP: 864 Regen: 836 EHP vs. Phys AP: 3191 Regen: 3171 So, against an AD, you do get 28 more burst damage in an all in situation. But you're doing much more harass damage prior to the fight, because most of your early game harass is gated by mana regen, not by AP. What this means is that even though in an all in the AP/level runes will be slightly superior, your target will start the fight at a lower HP, meaning the mana regen runes will be equivalent or better anyway. You can also stay in lane much longer, which is kind of a big deal early in the game. The other big reason I prefer mana regen runes against ADs is that most all AD / heavy AD comps tend to be strongest early and mid game, and fall off late game anyway when your team stacks armor, meaning you prefer rune pages that are slanted towards higher value earlier in the game. You're also already getting Morello in the Armguard build, so the edge situation where you want Athenes+Morello + AP/level runes to fight off a Mundo doesn't occur. So, while AP runes are certainly not bad, I don't advocate for them because I think in 99% of situations some other runes are slightly better. | ||
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Ethelis
United States2397 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Early game its just like the athenes build except you have armor instead of MR. | ||
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Ethelis
United States2397 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Mana Regen blues and CDR blues are pretigud. When you take the Armguard build vs Zed and he ults you at 6 and it doesn't even break your shield you'll lol yourself all the way to the bank. | ||
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