EPTOn January 13 2015 02:42 Ketara wrote:
So, I took the time to watch that hour long Lastshadow coaching video.
So, I took the time to watch that hour long Lastshadow coaching video.
I don't know why you bothered; the guy is a known fraud.
[D] Top Lane Annie - Page 3
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
I don't know why you bothered; the guy is a known fraud. | ||
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
On January 13 2015 10:03 Zess wrote: I don't know why you bothered; the guy is a known fraud. I agree with the whole, tear on Annie is pretty silly. And I skimmed through one of his pick/ban coaching tutorials once and I wasn't very impressed. In any event, isn't he a challenger level player in Korea who does coaching/analyst work for European teams? He's rather respected in the pro community. I don't think he's a fraud, unless you have some information I'm unaware of. | ||
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TheHumanSensation
Canada1210 Posts
On January 13 2015 09:46 Sufficiency wrote: Based on my data, top lane Annie seems to be winning quite a bit. Out of 500k games from various levels of NA ranked solo queue games (v4.21), I found about ~5.4k games of top lane Annie played by Plat+ players. These ~5.4k games were played by ~3k different players. Here's a breakdown: Win Rate, Overall: 55% over ~5k games Win Rate, Players Who Played Top Lane Annie 10+ Times: 62% over ~1.2k games Win Rate, Players Who Played Top Lane Annie 10- Times: 54% over ~4.2k games So, this may have its merits. However, keep in mind that: 1. 5.4k top Annie over 500k games is 1.4% popularity. She is a niche pick. 2. When I say a player who played top lane Annie X times, it's an underestimate, since I may have missed some of their games; also they may have played top lane Annie many times in a previous patch which I don't have record of. Despite the fine notes, I think this looks so positive that I will definitely be interested in trying it myself in the future. Here's a selection of players who played a lot of top lane Annie in 4.21: http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/56753536#matches <--- 93 games, 56% win rate on 4.21. http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/50972544#matches <--- 47 games, 74% win rate on 4.21. http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/52374031#matches <--- 57 games, 54% win rate on 4.21. BTW, a quick scan over their match history shows essentially no Tear being built on any of these 3 players. Just to make sure I understand this correctly, this in combination with the people who played annie more than 10 times means that essentially nobody played Annie top more than twice, and very very few played it more than a single time, yes? | ||
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TheHumanSensation
Canada1210 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On January 13 2015 10:16 TheHumanSensation wrote: Just to make sure I understand this correctly, this in combination with the people who played annie more than 10 times means that essentially nobody played Annie top more than twice, and very very few played it more than a single time, yes? I am not sure what you are getting at, but I just want to reiterate that I can only say "Player X has played AT LEAST Y games of top Annie on Patch Z. I can, however, tell you that top lane Annie has around 1.4% popularity (no "at least" here) and it is indeed a rare pick. | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On January 13 2015 10:16 TheHumanSensation wrote: Just to make sure I understand this correctly, this in combination with the people who played annie more than 10 times means that essentially nobody played Annie top more than twice, and very very few played it more than a single time, yes? There is a small core of dedicated Annie top players with significantly more than 2 games. "essentially nobody" is a meaningless qualifier because you don't indicate what you're comparing it to, and what "essentially" means. On January 13 2015 10:15 Sonnington wrote: I agree with the whole, tear on Annie is pretty silly. And I skimmed through one of his pick/ban coaching tutorials once and I wasn't very impressed. In any event, isn't he a challenger level player in Korea who does coaching/analyst work for European teams? He's rather respected in the pro community. I don't think he's a fraud, unless you have some information I'm unaware of. Afaik, he was elo boosted while in KR. Regardless, he has a pretty poor history of effective coaching starting from BW days, from deliberate fraud back then to the rather useless coaching you can see in the posted video. I'm not sure how much respect he commands in the pro community either, because he had a very short stint on SHC where he buddied up with the paragon of LoL virtue XJ9. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
Anyway, like I said, I think there are some merits behind this lane that are worth looking into. Also I hope OP will look at those players' builds. | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On January 12 2015 21:32 _merK wrote: Your comparison to Ravenous Hydra is as bad as MoonBears comparison to Randuins Katarina. I chose not to comment on that one for obvious reasons. Here's the thing, in League of Legends you have around 40 mins to finish the game (given how pacing normally happens) and only 6 item slots. So in that amount of time, you want to be doing the most you can with your items. Tear on Annie isn't bad like Ravenous Hydra is, where you are just straight up wasting gold. But is it better than the alternatives? You have effectively 3 tiers of items: "Build these all the time" "Build these some of the time" "Don't bother building these" Annie has more than 6 items that already take up the first 2 categories. Tear is not good enough to supersede those and falls into the last, at which point it basically is the same. Who cares if Tear Annie is better than Warmog's Annie or Randuin's Annie or Sunfire Annie. They're all not as good as DCap/Void/RoA/Liandries/Sorc/Lucidity/Morello/Zhonyas/DFG/Frozen Heart/Rylais or even Abyssal/WOTA Annie. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On January 13 2015 10:35 Zess wrote: There is a small core of dedicated Annie top players with significantly more than 2 games. "essentially nobody" is a meaningless qualifier because you don't indicate what you're comparing it to, and what "essentially" means. Afaik, he was elo boosted while in KR. Regardless, he has a pretty poor history of effective coaching starting from BW days, from deliberate fraud back then to the rather useless coaching you can see in the posted video. I'm not sure how much respect he commands in the pro community either, because he had a very short stint on SHC where he buddied up with the paragon of LoL virtue XJ9. The Brood War stuff was a long time ago. He's clearly had some success coaching in LoL, so to just completely disregard anything he has to say by going "Well he scammed some guy in Brood War, so he's just a fraud," is kind of silly. XJ9 was one of the top solo queue players before he was banned and he was just helping out as a proxy analyst, so I don't see how bringing that up is relevant. Argue what he actually says, not who he is as a person. | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
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TheHumanSensation
Canada1210 Posts
On January 13 2015 10:35 Zess wrote: There is a small core of dedicated Annie top players with significantly more than 2 games. "essentially nobody" is a meaningless qualifier because you don't indicate what you're comparing it to, and what "essentially" means. I think it's pretty clear that I was pointing out the following: 3 thousand players played less than 6 thousand games, meaning that it's not possible for everyone to have played 2 games (Sufficiency clarified why I was wrong to think this). The three people with 93/47/57 games (total of 197) are about 190 games over a par of 2, meaning that approximately 190 other people would have 1 game played instead of 2. Following this, I deduced that the large majority of players had played only a single game, with few playing more than 2. By "essentially nobody" I meant to convey the idea of a group of people with a number of included people so low that that the essence of the group is similar to or indistinguishable from a group containing zero people ("nobody"). Because this group is so low in number and impact it almost doesn't matter what their "essence" is because it's tiny enough to be negligible or near-zero. Perhaps essentially was a poor word choice? Effectively or basically are closer to what I meant to convey, I feel. Obviously I wrong to think this, but I also think it's fairly clear what I erroneously meant by the unqualified terms you pointed out. tl;dr thanks sufficiency EDIT: Also of interest to me is the person sufficiency linked to that builds frozen heart for mana instead of RoA, but still builds Deathcap and such. I'm not sure I understand this, given that Annie's defensive steroid creates desire for HP instead of resists and the lack of AP (with similar cost) seems significant early, as I do agree with the tear-person that Annie wants at minimum some kind of mana item alongside whatever AP. It seems to be glacial shroud -> AP -> finish FH later. Is glacial shroud considered a good laning item elsewhere? | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
I'll load a bit more data tonight and compare top lane Annie to mid/support Annie. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On January 14 2015 03:10 Sufficiency wrote: My concern is why she seems to be performing so well top. Is she simply a bad mid laner now? Oe maybe she is strong vs the current top meta pick? I'll load a bit more data tonight and compare top lane Annie to mid/support Annie. Just look at her E, she's a maokai with ranged aoe initiate. It's pretty insane how much free defensive stats she gets, that combined with good burst. The only issue I could see her running into is having to play around her flash CD for initiates. | ||
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nosliw
United States2716 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NRzNHuP.png) Looks like Annie mid also has around 55% win rate. Annie support looks pretty lackluster though... | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On January 15 2015 11:06 Sufficiency wrote: Here's a summary from 178k platinum games on patch 4.21: Looks like Annie mid also has around 55% win rate. Annie support looks pretty lackluster though... It's not like every Annie support is basically Annie mid with slower leveling-up, lol. I seriously think that i'm only one who plays Annie support by building talisman, crucible, locket and mobis instead of going dfg/deathcap/void staff like every cool guy does. | ||
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