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On January 12 2015 09:22 _merK wrote:
@MoonBear:
From your wording alone it seems like you don't know what you are talking about. I already explained why tear is a strong item and what her role is (in my way to play her top).
You don't seem to understand what a tank needs to offer to be viable.
Why do you even compare an AoE stun to a Katarina shunpo + randuins?
I bet you can do better than that.
By the way, every defensive steriod is "conditional".
No need to get hostile. People have differing opinions.
You describe Annie as a tanky CC-bot, which is fine because people have played her that way and her kit is able to provide that. But then you advise getting a tear on top of a Rod of Ages, which lets be real is essentially overkill on any champion not named Ryze. You already have huge amounts of mana from the Rod, you don't need the tear. Tear doesn't give anything else besides mana and some sort of AP. You can get AP from other items. If you need some health, get it from Liandrys or Rylais. If you need CDR for more utility and cycling, get Morellonomicon or a DFG. If you need pure AP, get any item that builds out of NLR.
I cannot think of a worse build on a champion that has good base damages and high utility to waste her early/mid game to "scale" better. Just off stats alone, you get the following from Rod of Ages + Archangel's Staff:
140 AP
650 HP
1640 MP
20% of max mana shield (Roughly 800 shield after items/masteries/base stats off ~3300 Mana)
3% of max mana to AP (Roughly 100 if you have ~3300ish Mana)
50% Base Mana Regen
Then you have to consider that you want to get Rod charging as fast as possible, but also tear stacking as soon as possible, so you're pretty much useless until 30-35 minutes into the game because you're basically playing off low amounts of AP, no resists, and not that much HP while you're charging up like Ryze, all while not scaling with Mana unlike Ryze. Ryze gets away with it because he still does a lot of damage with just mana items, while you on the other hand have AP ratios. While Annie's base stats are decent, they did get nerfed and more emphasis was placed on her AP ratios.
So my question in the end is: Why? Why are you advocating and saying tear is very good when let's be real you're just a walking stunbot that doesn't soak much damage. If you choose to level E, then you're a walking stunbot that doesn't do any damage because you're missing a skill. Off a 0% CDR build, you also don't have much utility because your cooldowns are fairly high still and you need to cycle through skills to get a stun.
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Building tear means that you aren't actually doing what you want to be doing.
If the point is to get lots of defensive stats while still doing decent damage, then opening tear -> RoA delays your tank stats for a long time. An unstacked RoA is not great tank stats, and an archangels staff isn't anything until it changes either. Even then, a fully stacked RoA and a Seraphs (alongside maxing E last) is still only decent tank stats.
You claim that you don't need the tank stats in lane, with tear / catalyst being more than enough to win lane. Spending the same 1920 gold would give you a NLR + 9 potions, two blasting wands + 5 potions, or a blasting wand and 30 potions (the latter two are obviously bad comparisons). Building AP and managing your spells better is at least as effective as building mana over-sustain for winning your lane, and is generally considered better.You're buying more sustain than you need and it is lowering your ability to win lane, not raising it.
It's not an issue of scaling either, as Ketara said earlier Seraphs is not slot-efficient relative to Deathcap or Void Staff, the latter of which is cheaper. You're sacrificing your early and especially midgame power for a sub-optimal lategame. Tear isn't good for Annie early or late.
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So if I were actually going to build annie bruiser, it would look something like RoA/Rylais/Void Staff/Zhonyas/Banshees or something like that?
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@ Zess:
I don't see how "everybody agrees on X" is a real argument when you are not talking about the best players/analysts. As you can see I am no long time poster on TL, but how does that change the content of what I am talking about? It does not. Many are plat+? So am I.
When you talk about empirical data I agree that there is no evidence on this matter. That is an argument against my claim, even though it is not a strong argument (just compare it to evidence on viability of support Annie before she was played on a pro level - there was no evidence either, but it still worked).
Now about cost efficiency:
Tear is already 94.4% cost efficient at its base value. It increases to 302.8% at its max. There are very few items that can get close.
I would rather argue (in your case) that it is not slot efficient, because Annie does not need that much mana.
My argument against it would be: I only get 3 to (4) damage items (RoA, Archangels, Void Staff (5th or 6th) and Frozen Heart which will give AP via Archangels.
I also claim that you can absolutly can use so much mana if you have a constant damage output and are not bursted down quickly. Her manacost for one burst combo are 310 and she uses 290 mana every roughly 5 seconds afterwards. Her Mana pool of 2050 will allow her to 6 spell rotations after her initial burst. That is 30s of damage. In my opinion, building mana for 30s of constant spells (also AoE stun every 5 seconds) is completly justified on a tank/bruiser.
I come to 1761.575 Burst Damage (before resistances) + 83.8 Damage per second of Tibber AoE + 975 (when getting hit, 875 when not) every 5 seconds.. I am aware this is no a lot for a champion that can be played as a high burst mage, but again, this is about what items to go for when you already decided you are playing a tank/bruiser and not a burst mage.
Your comparison to Ravenous Hydra is as bad as MoonBears comparison to Randuins Katarina. I chose not to comment on that one for obvious reasons.
@Ketara:
I hope this clarifies it for you:
Annie top has a range advantage in most matchups. She can therefore harass extremely easily, but is limited by mana during laningphase. There are two ways to combat this without giving up your advantage:
Mana reg and flat mana.
For mana reg morello is the go-to option which gives her a very strong laning phase and midgame power, but it will fall off later on.
For flat mana you can go RoA, Tear or both. Those two both scale really hard. I chose to get both because I don't build much AP and Archangles is very cost efficient when paired with other mana items (like frozen heart in my case).
It is true that it takes time to get stronger than morello, but I value lategame stats more on tank/bruiser Annie than midgame powerspikes.
@krndandaman:
Tear is enough to give her lane power. As you said, morello is more than enough and scales less. Therefore Tear a superior item in my opinion.
I also see very little evidence against it other than "there is no evidence for it" and "a high damage build is better" so far in this thread. I have the impression that many of you don't (want to) understand that my way to play Annie top is not about going the damage route but rather a tank route that still gives AP.
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Make no mistake Annie can be built in a defensive manner due to her passive and fire shield. However, suggesting things like Tear is misguided. Annie is not a mana starved champion, she is a suggested hero to learn mana management due to her forgiving nature in this respect.
Ignoring the fact that going both Rod of Age's and Seraph's increases the time for both of those items to reach the peak of power. Saying you do end up with these items in a timely manner how exactly would she fair against popular top lane picks? Gnar, Rumble, Sion, Jayce seem all more then able to exploit the weakness of running around with just a starting buy and a tear or catalyst. It just doesn't seem like it'd end well for the Annie having as you yourself stated a focus on lategame stats vs any midgame power.
I mean I'm sure it works in some cases, Solo-que is quite forgiving in that aspect but in a competitive environment I'd think Annie top going double mana items would be nothing short of declaring to the other team your intent to offer them a feast.
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On January 12 2015 21:32 _merK wrote:I also claim that you can absolutly can use so much mana if you have a constant damage output and are not bursted down quickly. Her manacost for one burst combo are 310 and she uses 290 mana every roughly 5 seconds afterwards. Her Mana pool of 2050 will allow her to 6 spell rotations after her initial burst. That is 30s of damage. In my opinion, building mana for 30s of constant spells (also AoE stun every 5 seconds) is completly justified on a tank/bruiser.
Even if you build her tankier, her base defensive stats are middling at best without molten shield active and you're never going to live as long as traditional tanks that have 3-5 defensive items- actual resistance items, not hybrid AP items like RoA/Archangels that happen to give incidental defensive stats. You're almost never going to live 30 seconds without a break in a team fight. You can realistically afford one mana AP item as Annie, any more than that is overkill and pretty much a waste of stats late game (not to mention a waste of gold early game).
The fact you think RoA/Archangels/Frozen Heart is okay from a cost efficiency point of view is sheer lunacy. It's only cost effective if you actually make use of the stats, and 99% of the time you're not going to be using all of your mana pool when you have that many mana items. You're dumping like 3400 gold on mana and mana regen, thats insane. That's like 1.5 defensive items tied up in mana. Realistically you're using maybe half of that? At best? Oi.
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If you're running out of mana in lane as Annie, you're doing it wrong.
Also, max W, get better at last hitting with a low damage Q.
Caveat - I don't play this game anymore, but even through S3 and the latter part of S4, I always built RoA on Annie first. Molten armor is oodles of free defensive stats, the increased health and mana pools are really nice (I know I just said mana shouldn't be an issue. Shut up. This is part of the reason why.) There is no need for further mana items. Full stop.
I have always maintained W is the better skill to max on Annie, except maybe in the really shitty matchups where you're purely outranged at everything.
Lucidity is unnecessary, Sorc boots are better. I generally got them with distortion for the more frequent flash bears. Tibbers is an incredibly short cooldown late game, especially if you utilize his entire life on screen.
edit - I suppose, if you're playing top lane, I could see the argument against maxing W first so that you don't super push and lose lane control.
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So, I took the time to watch that hour long Lastshadow coaching video.
He tells the guy to buy Tear at 15 minutes.
After that, at no point does he ever go below 1000 mana.
The game ends at 27 minutes, his Archangel has 577 stacks.
LS also tells him to buy an Iceborne Gauntlet after Archangel.
After that, at no point does he ever go below 2000 mana.
Based off of this, I feel fairly safe in the assumption that the mana and regen on Tear were 100% wasted, and the build would have been stronger if he had gone for Rylais or Void Staff instead.
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On January 11 2015 16:33 Sufficiency wrote:
Free Q -> free tear stack, I guess.
But in general I am skeptical. There is nothing she can do Ryze/Cass can't do bettr.
She can tank a lot harder than Cass, and Ryze. She has the best non-ult defensive steroid in the game.
On January 13 2015 01:39 jcarlsoniv wrote:
If you're running out of mana in lane as Annie, you're doing it wrong.
Also, max W, get better at last hitting with a low damage Q.
Caveat - I don't play this game anymore, but even through S3 and the latter part of S4, I always built RoA on Annie first. Molten armor is oodles of free defensive stats, the increased health and mana pools are really nice (I know I just said mana shouldn't be an issue. Shut up. This is part of the reason why.) There is no need for further mana items. Full stop.a
I have always maintained W is the better skill to max on Annie, except maybe in the really shitty matchups where you're purely outranged at everything.
Lucidity is unnecessary, Sorc boots are better. I generally got them with distortion for the more frequent flash bears. Tibbers is an incredibly short cooldown late game, especially if you utilize his entire life on screen.
edit - I suppose, if you're playing top lane, I could see the argument against maxing W first so that you don't super push and lose lane control.
W max first is best on Annie, on most match ups. You can always force lane pressure by waveclearing really hard. But, I would suggest 2 points into Q before starting the W max (since you want the ability to have strong ranged harass in earlier levels, but want to start wave clearing when roaming becomes more of an issue (usually lvl 6+).
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On January 13 2015 04:47 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2015 16:33 Sufficiency wrote:
Free Q -> free tear stack, I guess.
But in general I am skeptical. There is nothing she can do Ryze/Cass can't do bettr. She can tank a lot harder than Cass, and Ryze. She has the best non-ult defensive steroid in the game. Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 01:39 jcarlsoniv wrote:
If you're running out of mana in lane as Annie, you're doing it wrong.
Also, max W, get better at last hitting with a low damage Q.
Caveat - I don't play this game anymore, but even through S3 and the latter part of S4, I always built RoA on Annie first. Molten armor is oodles of free defensive stats, the increased health and mana pools are really nice (I know I just said mana shouldn't be an issue. Shut up. This is part of the reason why.) There is no need for further mana items. Full stop.a
I have always maintained W is the better skill to max on Annie, except maybe in the really shitty matchups where you're purely outranged at everything.
Lucidity is unnecessary, Sorc boots are better. I generally got them with distortion for the more frequent flash bears. Tibbers is an incredibly short cooldown late game, especially if you utilize his entire life on screen.
edit - I suppose, if you're playing top lane, I could see the argument against maxing W first so that you don't super push and lose lane control. W max first is best on Annie, on most match ups. You can always force lane pressure by waveclearing really hard. But, I would suggest 2 points into Q before starting the W max (since you want the ability to have strong ranged harass in earlier levels, but want to start wave clearing when roaming becomes more of an issue (usually lvl 6+).
I've heard this opinion a few times before as well. I don't want to say it's bad, because I've only tried it a few times, but I'm not a fan. I understand the thought process behind it, but what do you trade off for that?
An early point in E? Absolutely not, the early resistance + damage on hit, as well as the added stun cycle utility is way too good to pass up, imo.
An early 3rd point in W? It could just be that I'm used to how much damage I do with W at certain points in the game, but I find it really awkward not having that 3rd point at lvls 5/6 (when you become REALLY scary). Again, I can see the argument for Q here (it's shorter CD, a bit longer range), I'm just not a fan.
I personally love to abuse the long range AA as my general harass (which is why I ended up having a lot of issues with minion aggro when I came back late S4 - they apparently changed something and it's stupid), using Q as super easy, free mana cs + stun cycling, and popping people with max range W when they think they're being cheeky. You really only need your opponent to be somewhere around 2/3 HP by the time you hit 6, maybe a bit lower if they're tankier.
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On January 13 2015 05:13 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 04:47 wei2coolman wrote:On January 11 2015 16:33 Sufficiency wrote:
Free Q -> free tear stack, I guess.
But in general I am skeptical. There is nothing she can do Ryze/Cass can't do bettr. She can tank a lot harder than Cass, and Ryze. She has the best non-ult defensive steroid in the game. On January 13 2015 01:39 jcarlsoniv wrote:
If you're running out of mana in lane as Annie, you're doing it wrong.
Also, max W, get better at last hitting with a low damage Q.
Caveat - I don't play this game anymore, but even through S3 and the latter part of S4, I always built RoA on Annie first. Molten armor is oodles of free defensive stats, the increased health and mana pools are really nice (I know I just said mana shouldn't be an issue. Shut up. This is part of the reason why.) There is no need for further mana items. Full stop.a
I have always maintained W is the better skill to max on Annie, except maybe in the really shitty matchups where you're purely outranged at everything.
Lucidity is unnecessary, Sorc boots are better. I generally got them with distortion for the more frequent flash bears. Tibbers is an incredibly short cooldown late game, especially if you utilize his entire life on screen.
edit - I suppose, if you're playing top lane, I could see the argument against maxing W first so that you don't super push and lose lane control. W max first is best on Annie, on most match ups. You can always force lane pressure by waveclearing really hard. But, I would suggest 2 points into Q before starting the W max (since you want the ability to have strong ranged harass in earlier levels, but want to start wave clearing when roaming becomes more of an issue (usually lvl 6+). I've heard this opinion a few times before as well. I don't want to say it's bad, because I've only tried it a few times, but I'm not a fan. I understand the thought process behind it, but what do you trade off for that? An early point in E? Absolutely not, the early resistance + damage on hit, as well as the added stun cycle utility is way too good to pass up, imo. An early 3rd point in W? It could just be that I'm used to how much damage I do with W at certain points in the game, but I find it really awkward not having that 3rd point at lvls 5/6 (when you become REALLY scary). Again, I can see the argument for Q here (it's shorter CD, a bit longer range), I'm just not a fan. I personally love to abuse the long range AA as my general harass (which is why I ended up having a lot of issues with minion aggro when I came back late S4 - they apparently changed something and it's stupid), using Q as super easy, free mana cs + stun cycling, and popping people with max range W when they think they're being cheeky. You really only need your opponent to be somewhere around 2/3 HP by the time you hit 6, maybe a bit lower if they're tankier.
So W->Q->Q->E->W->R->W->W->W
or Q->W->Q->E->W->R->W->W->W
or Q->W->E->Q->W->R->W->W->W
Whichever of these three would be how it plays out.
It depends on the matchup though imo. If you're against a roamer, straight W max right away might be better to shove earlier.
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On January 13 2015 06:03 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 05:13 jcarlsoniv wrote:On January 13 2015 04:47 wei2coolman wrote:On January 11 2015 16:33 Sufficiency wrote:
Free Q -> free tear stack, I guess.
But in general I am skeptical. There is nothing she can do Ryze/Cass can't do bettr. She can tank a lot harder than Cass, and Ryze. She has the best non-ult defensive steroid in the game. On January 13 2015 01:39 jcarlsoniv wrote:
If you're running out of mana in lane as Annie, you're doing it wrong.
Also, max W, get better at last hitting with a low damage Q.
Caveat - I don't play this game anymore, but even through S3 and the latter part of S4, I always built RoA on Annie first. Molten armor is oodles of free defensive stats, the increased health and mana pools are really nice (I know I just said mana shouldn't be an issue. Shut up. This is part of the reason why.) There is no need for further mana items. Full stop.a
I have always maintained W is the better skill to max on Annie, except maybe in the really shitty matchups where you're purely outranged at everything.
Lucidity is unnecessary, Sorc boots are better. I generally got them with distortion for the more frequent flash bears. Tibbers is an incredibly short cooldown late game, especially if you utilize his entire life on screen.
edit - I suppose, if you're playing top lane, I could see the argument against maxing W first so that you don't super push and lose lane control. W max first is best on Annie, on most match ups. You can always force lane pressure by waveclearing really hard. But, I would suggest 2 points into Q before starting the W max (since you want the ability to have strong ranged harass in earlier levels, but want to start wave clearing when roaming becomes more of an issue (usually lvl 6+). I've heard this opinion a few times before as well. I don't want to say it's bad, because I've only tried it a few times, but I'm not a fan. I understand the thought process behind it, but what do you trade off for that? An early point in E? Absolutely not, the early resistance + damage on hit, as well as the added stun cycle utility is way too good to pass up, imo. An early 3rd point in W? It could just be that I'm used to how much damage I do with W at certain points in the game, but I find it really awkward not having that 3rd point at lvls 5/6 (when you become REALLY scary). Again, I can see the argument for Q here (it's shorter CD, a bit longer range), I'm just not a fan. I personally love to abuse the long range AA as my general harass (which is why I ended up having a lot of issues with minion aggro when I came back late S4 - they apparently changed something and it's stupid), using Q as super easy, free mana cs + stun cycling, and popping people with max range W when they think they're being cheeky. You really only need your opponent to be somewhere around 2/3 HP by the time you hit 6, maybe a bit lower if they're tankier. So W->Q->Q->E->W->R->W->W->W or Q->W->Q->E->W->R->W->W->W or Q->W->E->Q->W->R->W->W->W Whichever of these three would be how it plays out. It depends on the matchup though imo. If you're against a roamer, straight W max right away might be better to shove earlier.
I mean, I understood what your options would be. It's more of a disagreement in play style, I suppose.
My usual setup was:
W (get lvl 1 stun in fountain because it's op) Q W E W R, W>Q>E>R
I can't actually see a reason you'd ever, ever want to start with Q.
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Hi I'm challenger/diamond/challenger and this guide sucks. Max W, 2 ranks in Q to last hit if you can't do it with just one in Q (higher burst damage for fights and better AoE), take teleport if you're top lane and ignite only if you're mid, don't build tear that's retarded just RoA is good enough.
And holy shit this new site needs to give us some kind of badge indicating which of us had veteran status =/.
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ILU 5hit, plz ty
I'd also like to see some people have blue status on strategy forum. It'd be great.
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On January 12 2015 09:22 _merK wrote:
@MoonBear:
From your wording alone it seems like you don't know what you are talking about. I already explained why tear is a strong item and what her role is (in my way to play her top).
You don't seem to understand what a tank needs to offer to be viable.
Yeah, tanks need massive mana pools to draw health and resistances from. When playing tanks, make sure to buy items that give no tank stats. That's how you know you're tanking. When you buy shit that does absolutely nothing for your damage or tankiness.
Edit: Hi Ketara
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On January 12 2015 21:32 _merK wrote:
Now about cost efficiency:
Tear is already 94.4% cost efficient at its base value. It increases to 302.8% at its max. There are very few items that can get close.
But that's assuming that you actually use the mana. Annie doesn't (especially not if she's already going RoA)
If you don't need the mana, tear is 0% cost efficient and archangels is 70%-92% efficient (though you'll probably get up to 100% or a little better with a few more mana items like RoA).
This isn't very good compared to the other options that:
1. Don't require ramp time (giving you better lane phase and earlier power spike)
2. Give you more gold efficiency
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On January 13 2015 06:21 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2015 06:03 wei2coolman wrote:On January 13 2015 05:13 jcarlsoniv wrote:On January 13 2015 04:47 wei2coolman wrote:On January 11 2015 16:33 Sufficiency wrote:
Free Q -> free tear stack, I guess.
But in general I am skeptical. There is nothing she can do Ryze/Cass can't do bettr. She can tank a lot harder than Cass, and Ryze. She has the best non-ult defensive steroid in the game. On January 13 2015 01:39 jcarlsoniv wrote:
If you're running out of mana in lane as Annie, you're doing it wrong.
Also, max W, get better at last hitting with a low damage Q.
Caveat - I don't play this game anymore, but even through S3 and the latter part of S4, I always built RoA on Annie first. Molten armor is oodles of free defensive stats, the increased health and mana pools are really nice (I know I just said mana shouldn't be an issue. Shut up. This is part of the reason why.) There is no need for further mana items. Full stop.a
I have always maintained W is the better skill to max on Annie, except maybe in the really shitty matchups where you're purely outranged at everything.
Lucidity is unnecessary, Sorc boots are better. I generally got them with distortion for the more frequent flash bears. Tibbers is an incredibly short cooldown late game, especially if you utilize his entire life on screen.
edit - I suppose, if you're playing top lane, I could see the argument against maxing W first so that you don't super push and lose lane control. W max first is best on Annie, on most match ups. You can always force lane pressure by waveclearing really hard. But, I would suggest 2 points into Q before starting the W max (since you want the ability to have strong ranged harass in earlier levels, but want to start wave clearing when roaming becomes more of an issue (usually lvl 6+). I've heard this opinion a few times before as well. I don't want to say it's bad, because I've only tried it a few times, but I'm not a fan. I understand the thought process behind it, but what do you trade off for that? An early point in E? Absolutely not, the early resistance + damage on hit, as well as the added stun cycle utility is way too good to pass up, imo. An early 3rd point in W? It could just be that I'm used to how much damage I do with W at certain points in the game, but I find it really awkward not having that 3rd point at lvls 5/6 (when you become REALLY scary). Again, I can see the argument for Q here (it's shorter CD, a bit longer range), I'm just not a fan. I personally love to abuse the long range AA as my general harass (which is why I ended up having a lot of issues with minion aggro when I came back late S4 - they apparently changed something and it's stupid), using Q as super easy, free mana cs + stun cycling, and popping people with max range W when they think they're being cheeky. You really only need your opponent to be somewhere around 2/3 HP by the time you hit 6, maybe a bit lower if they're tankier. So W->Q->Q->E->W->R->W->W->W or Q->W->Q->E->W->R->W->W->W or Q->W->E->Q->W->R->W->W->W Whichever of these three would be how it plays out. It depends on the matchup though imo. If you're against a roamer, straight W max right away might be better to shove earlier. I mean, I understood what your options would be. It's more of a disagreement in play style, I suppose. My usual setup was: W (get lvl 1 stun in fountain because it's op) Q W E W R, W>Q>E>R I can't actually see a reason you'd ever, ever want to start with Q.
Well, just look at the math of it, and you'll see the 2nd level in Q is actually pretty comparable to the earlier level 2 W.
the only difference is 5% AP ratio, but a 4sec CD difference, and 15 mana difference. So for the most part in early level 1-6, there's no roam, so you can comfortably harass and poke, without worrying about getting pushed on. Post 6+ then you can W max, which is where level 3,4,5 of W start outstripping the damage of Q in their respective levels.
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Based on my data, top lane Annie seems to be winning quite a bit.
Out of 500k games from various levels of NA ranked solo queue games (v4.21), I found about ~5.4k games of top lane Annie played by Plat+ players. These ~5.4k games were played by ~3k different players.
Here's a breakdown:
Win Rate, Overall: 55% over ~5k games
Win Rate, Players Who Played Top Lane Annie 10+ Times: 62% over ~1.2k games
Win Rate, Players Who Played Top Lane Annie 10- Times: 54% over ~4.2k games
So, this may have its merits. However, keep in mind that:
1. 5.4k top Annie over 500k games is 1.4% popularity. She is a niche pick.
2. When I say a player who played top lane Annie X times, it's an underestimate, since I may have missed some of their games; also they may have played top lane Annie many times in a previous patch which I don't have record of.
Despite the fine notes, I think this looks so positive that I will definitely be interested in trying it myself in the future.
Here's a selection of players who played a lot of top lane Annie in 4.21:
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/56753536#matches <--- 93 games, 56% win rate on 4.21.
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/50972544#matches <--- 47 games, 74% win rate on 4.21.
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/52374031#matches <--- 57 games, 54% win rate on 4.21.
BTW, a quick scan over their match history shows essentially no Tear being built on any of these 3 players.
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EPT
