EPTRoA on top Annie is the only thing that I absolutely think should be "standard"
Experiment for yourself, but always keep in mind that she is really hard to position well and that she scales well with health. [D] Top Lane Annie - Page 5
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Raejk
United States61 Posts
RoA on top Annie is the only thing that I absolutely think should be "standard" Experiment for yourself, but always keep in mind that she is really hard to position well and that she scales well with health. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On January 13 2015 09:46 Sufficiency wrote: Based on my data, top lane Annie seems to be winning quite a bit. Out of 500k games from various levels of NA ranked solo queue games (v4.21), I found about ~5.4k games of top lane Annie played by Plat+ players. These ~5.4k games were played by ~3k different players. Here's a breakdown: Win Rate, Overall: 55% over ~5k games Win Rate, Players Who Played Top Lane Annie 10+ Times: 62% over ~1.2k games Win Rate, Players Who Played Top Lane Annie 10- Times: 54% over ~4.2k games So, this may have its merits. However, keep in mind that: 1. 5.4k top Annie over 500k games is 1.4% popularity. She is a niche pick. 2. When I say a player who played top lane Annie X times, it's an underestimate, since I may have missed some of their games; also they may have played top lane Annie many times in a previous patch which I don't have record of. Despite the fine notes, I think this looks so positive that I will definitely be interested in trying it myself in the future. Here's a selection of players who played a lot of top lane Annie in 4.21: http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/56753536#matches <--- 93 games, 56% win rate on 4.21. http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/50972544#matches <--- 47 games, 74% win rate on 4.21. http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/52374031#matches <--- 57 games, 54% win rate on 4.21. BTW, a quick scan over their match history shows essentially no Tear being built on any of these 3 players. Is it a 8% difference for every champion? Or is it like 70% for people who play Lee Sin 10+ times and 30% for people who play him less than 10 games? | ||
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ricecake
152 Posts
E - Molten Shield ARMOR / MAGIC RESISTANCE BONUS 20/30/40/50/60 ⇒ 10/20/30/40/50 R - Summon: Tibbers NEW - When Annie casts Molten Shield, Tibbers gains +300 bonus movement speed, decaying over 0.75 seconds NEW - Tibbers now also receives the benefits of Molten Shield when Annie casts it while he's up DIET TIBBERS - Tibbers' collision radius has been reduced to let him move past minions easier While I worry about losing 10 AP/MR, I think overall this will be a buff to bruiser Annie, who didn't rely on DFG anyways. Tibbers does 35 + 20% AP damage per second as an Aura, and with him becoming tankier, it will be much harder to displace him. At rank 3, he has a whopping 3,000 HP, so getting these bonus resists will do him wonders. It feels like there may be some potential with Rylai's; Tibbers can chase somebody down, then slow them enough for Annie to land a stun. Lastly, I think this may incentivize CDR heavy builds (scaling CDR blues, Lucidity boots, Frozen Heart. etc) since at max CDR, Tibbers lifespan (45s) is about the same as Annie's ult cooldown (48s). Anybody else have thoughts / reactions to this change? | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On January 28 2015 06:57 ricecake wrote: With Patch 5.2, Annie is getting some changes.. While I worry about losing 10 AP/MR, I think overall this will be a buff to bruiser Annie, who didn't rely on DFG anyways. Tibbers does 35 + 20% AP damage per second as an Aura, and with him becoming tankier, it will be much harder to displace him. At rank 3, he has a whopping 3,000 HP, so getting these bonus resists will do him wonders. It feels like there may be some potential with Rylai's; Tibbers can chase somebody down, then slow them enough for Annie to land a stun. Lastly, I think this may incentivize CDR heavy builds (scaling CDR blues, Lucidity boots, Frozen Heart. etc) since at max CDR, Tibbers lifespan (45s) is about the same as Annie's ult cooldown (48s). Anybody else have thoughts / reactions to this change? I didn't even know Tibbers applied rylais. | ||
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miicah
Australia2470 Posts
On January 28 2015 07:36 obesechicken13 wrote: I didn't even know Tibbers applied rylais. It would be 1/3 effective because of AOE though. | ||
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ricecake
152 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
Annie with spellvamp and CDR is pretty sick too, with max you can Q every minion with a CD of 1.2 seconds for free....thats a fuckton of sustain. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
And you can't get CDR from runes or anything. | ||
Chexx
Korea (South)11232 Posts
On January 28 2015 12:41 Ketara wrote: Yeah you're right, I guess Lich Bane is not a good item on the longest AA range AP champion who just happens to have a skill with a 2.4 second cooldown with CDR. And you can't get CDR from runes or anything. On January 28 2015 10:08 Ketara wrote: I'd really like to see somebody go Frozen Heart + Rylai + Lich Bane in some order and tell me how it works. Please save the sarcasm for the off topic thread and keep it out of strategy. Mocking somebody because he didn't agree with your post while you didn't provide any evidence yourself isnt good for discussions. Recommending Lich Bane on Annie to take advantage of a 2.4s CD spell (which isn't even attainable without runes/masteries, that itself a problem as addressed later) is fundamentally misunderstanding what people actually build Lich Bane for. The champions who use Lich Bane do not do it to artificially add "sustained damage" over a 10+ second team fight, but rather do it to add burst to their combos, necessitated by their kits requiring an auto-attack. See: TF, Fizz, Diana, etc. Lich Bane is not built on any casters who do not need to auto attack as a part of their spell kit. While it is true Annie has really long range, her auto attack animation isn't great, and an extra bit of range from what is primarily a caster is completely irrelevant in a teamfight situation. It is further negated in team fights because in order to proc LB, you need to cast a spell first, and Annie's spells are actually lower range than her autos. Auto, Q, and W are all 625 range, but because auto range is calculated from edge of the character model while spell is from the center, the actual range of Q is a bit lower than the auto. By recommending Rylai/FH/LB, you are paying 1400g for a .5 AP ratio on a low-AP build. In addition, requiring extra runes to reach max CDR means sacrificing laning potential by giving up AP/MR/whatever for something that doesn't kick in until 3 full items are completed. An 80 AP item that gives no CDR and no raw damage hurts your initial burst combo, which is what is most important. No matter the role and build of Annie, Annie's teamfight playstyle is always to start off with casting RWQ in rapid succession. Thus, it is much better to get raw AP and penetration to maximize your initial damage and to prioritize CDR for sustained damage. Lich Bane does not help with either of these goals. In addition, the burst combo is a "sure thing" whereas for any number of reasons (focus fire, CC, postioning, team fight ending earlier), you might not be able to guarantee sustained Q-auto after every cooldown during the course of a teamfight to make the LB "outdamage" an alternative. This is all on top of the fact that Rylai/FH/LB is a very expensive core set-up that doesn't even synergize much. You are overpaying for mana and the LB damage while lacking in burst damage and CDR, as well as other effects/bonuses that alternatives would give you. With the Rylai/FH core, any number of other items are superior choices over LB: Void Staff, Morellonomicon, Deathcap, Hourglass, just to name a few of many examples. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
This is a bruiser Annie discussion, whom I'd presume would be 1v1ing and pushing towers, both of which Lich Bane would help a lot for. If you're talking about a Rylai/FH core, lets look at the other example items you listed. Since we already figured out that ROA gives all the mana you need, FH gives comparable mana, so I can assume that Morellonomicon would be overkill on mana. You already have an armor item, so Zhonyas would probably be overkill on armor, although I could definitely see getting Zhonya/Void/Deathcap for a 4th or 5th item. So lets look at damage of Lich Bane for a third item vs. Void Staff or Deathcap. Void Staff and Deathcap both only give damage, while Lich Bane gives damage, tower pushing power, mana and movespeed, so we'll make an assumption that Void and Deathcaps damage have to be clearly higher, and not just sorta closely higher, in order to be better choices. Void and Deathcap will do dispraportionately more AOE damage, but this is not mid lane teamfighting Annie we are talking about, it is top lane Bruiser Annie who will care more about her 1v1 ability than her teamfighting ability, or so I would assume. We've already got Rylais and probably a Dorans Ring, so we're talking something like 143 AP base. Deathcap costs a lot more and has a more cumbersome build path, so I'm going to add a Blasting Wand to Void Staff and an Amp Tome to Lich Bane (this makes the Lich Bane route 100g more expensive than the other two, but I'm gonna call that fair since Lich Bane has the best build path of the three anyway). So here's the AP values we're looking at. Void: 258.5 Deathcap: 341.9 Lich Bane: 248 Based on that, here's burst damage figures for her R W Q combo, which at level 16 is 930+2.65 AP. We'll add one Lich Bane proc into it. Void: 1615.025 Deathcap: 1836.035 Lich Bane: 1777.2 So, Deathcap is about 3% higher than Lich Bane, which I can presume will not be good enough to be worth 5% movespeed, 250 more mana and much (much) better tower pushing capability, especially not when you look at sustained damage figures which we'll check out below. But before we do that, lets look at Lich Bane vs. Void Staff because for that we have to look at enemy MR. We'll assume you've got Sorc Shoes and hybrid pen runes, and see how Void compares against different MR values. 50 MR target (lowest you're likely to see in top lane) Void: 1530 Lich: 1456.7 100 MR target (tank who rushes like a banshee or something) Void: 1186 Lich: 1051.59 So, against a low MR target it's again, like a 5% difference in burst, which still would I think make me lean towards Lich Bane for more mana, movespeed and tower pushing power. If you're playing against a tank who rushes big MR items right away, Void is probably going to be better, that is true. I'd also like to point out that if you get a second Q in your burst combo (I think you can do this? I don't know. You can Q R W Q if you have CDR right?) for a second 190 damage Lich Bane proc, Lich Bane will outdamage both Void and Deathcap. So, lets also look at some sustained damage ratios. I'm gonna put out some DPS figures for these three items, and I'm going to assume that you can do a Lich Bane auto off every Q, since they have the same range. I'm gonna count Q DPS, W DPS, and the aura from Tibbers. Void: 271 Deathcap: 322 Lich Bane: 327 This is actually closer than I thought it would be (Tibbers Aura is pretty sweet DPS), but it still shows that Lich Bane is clearly equal or better than the other two, while providing movespeed, mana and tower pushing capability. Note that higher CDR would benefit Lich Bane more than the other two, since Tibbers aura DPS wouldn't increase with CDR but the Lich Bane proc DPS would increase substantially. I'm curious though because I want to look at that vs. a Morellonomicon. So we'll look at a Morello + Blasting Wand + AP/level runes, vs. a Lich Bane + CDR/level runes. Said Morello build would have 272.895 AP. Lich Bane: 433 Morellonomicon: 379 So, as we can see the Lich Bane build is much better at sustained damage, and would also be much better at burst damage (Morellos burst figures would be lower than Deathcap), while providing movespeed and tower pushing ability. Morellos gives more mana probably, which Annie doesn't need. So, in conclusion. Lich Bane is actually the best sustained damage of all the items you suggested, and fairly equivalent or slightly better at burst damage depending on what sort of a combo you're talking about, unless you're against a tank who rushes big MR items in which case Void Staff is probably better. You could make an argument for the AOE damage on Deathcap/Void being very strong, but I thought we were talking about top lane Bruiser Annie, who I'd assume is most concerned with her 1v1 and tower pushing ability and not with her teamfight ability. Maybe I'm incorrect in understanding how you play Top Annie. Lich Bane also gives the best utility of all the items you suggested, due to providing movespeed and a lot of extra tower pushing ability, as well as just the right amount of mana she would need. It's got a better build path since it builds out of smaller components, you never have to wait for 1600g. Zhonya provides good defense, but it's not really seen as an offensive item. I do think Void, Zhonya and Deathcap would be great as 4th or 5th items. I think Morello seems a little silly on her if you're already getting Frozen Heart, you don't need both. Realistically, I think the item you're looking for as being better than Lich Bane when considering these things is Deathfire Grasp, which you can't buy anymore. DFG would be similar in terms of everything but tower pushing ability, but just better in every way. But, all that said, I don't play Annie, top or otherwise. I don't have a clue lol. I'd be interested in somebody trying it and telling me what they think though instead of just saying it's wrong. Mostly I just think it's weird that Lich Bane was a 1st or 2nd must have item for top Lulu in season 4, but in this thread for top Annie it's not even being considered. | ||
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ricecake
152 Posts
I think one of the most crucial components to this is how easy it is for Annie to weave auto attacks in with her spells. Assuming we hit 40% CDR, her spell cooldowns look like this:
Considering her spell animations aren't the cleanest, and she honestly has a pretty bad auto attack animation too, I am skeptical that you'd be able to (1) properly rotate all of your spells for maximum stuns, (2) weave in enough auto attacks to make the lich bane worth it, and (3) actually move around and stuff. Regardless, this is cool theory crafting. If anybody gets a chance to try these things out, definitely report back with your findings! | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Lich Bane gives her movespeed to engage on people and avoid ganks, as well as really good 1v1 damage and tower pushing. I also feel like a Sheen rush would be really strong on her. It has mana on it same as that ROA part whatever it's called, but it'd let you Q minions and have the empowered auto to poke the enemy champion or scare him away from creeps. If you went Lich+Rylai+FH I'd probably suggest rushing Sheen, then building Rylai/FH in whatever order, and finishing Lich Bane after Rylai when you have the Rylai AP. It's probably not the best teamfighting item. I wouldn't suggest it for a mid lane build, or if I did it wouldn't be until 5th item probably, and only then because DFG isn't in the game anymore. But for top lane I'm not sure how it doesn't make sense. But again, I don't play Annie in general, I'm just theorycrafting. It's worth noting that I don't understand ROA on Annie at all. It seems like ROA is an item for people who are not strong early game and ramp up into a late game threat, especially if they get damage from mana like Ryze. Annie isn't like that, she's a super strong early game champion who if anything falls off later in the game because she becomes real dependant on Flash to do damage, even though her damage admittedly stays pretty crazy high. I feel like buying ROA on Annie is some weird season 2 legacy buy from back when you bought ROA on everybody, coupled with the fact that she might need a little bit of mana but doesn't actually need very much, and that's exactly what ROA gives. I don't think it's actually a good item for her and I think if you did the math you could come up with something better, or something that would at least be equivalent without sacrificing early game power. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On January 29 2015 07:28 Ketara wrote: I mean, the thing for me is that if you're playing a top lane bruiser, you want to be a strong split pusher, right? Annie has some of that because she has real good 1v1 and Tibbers is good at pushing because he can tank tower hits. Lich Bane gives her movespeed to engage on people and avoid ganks, as well as really good 1v1 damage and tower pushing. I also feel like a Sheen rush would be really strong on her. It has mana on it same as that ROA part whatever it's called, but it'd let you Q minions and have the empowered auto to poke the enemy champion or scare him away from creeps. If you went Lich+Rylai+FH I'd probably suggest rushing Sheen, then building Rylai/FH in whatever order, and finishing Lich Bane after Rylai when you have the Rylai AP. It's probably not the best teamfighting item. I wouldn't suggest it for a mid lane build, or if I did it wouldn't be until 5th item probably, and only then because DFG isn't in the game anymore. But for top lane I'm not sure how it doesn't make sense. But again, I don't play Annie in general, I'm just theorycrafting. It's worth noting that I don't understand ROA on Annie at all. It seems like ROA is an item for people who are not strong early game and ramp up into a late game threat, especially if they get damage from mana like Ryze. Annie isn't like that, she's a super strong early game champion who if anything falls off later in the game because she becomes real dependant on Flash to do damage, even though her damage admittedly stays pretty crazy high. I feel like buying ROA on Annie is some weird season 2 legacy buy from back when you bought ROA on everybody, coupled with the fact that she might need a little bit of mana but doesn't actually need very much, and that's exactly what ROA gives. I don't think it's actually a good item for her and I think if you did the math you could come up with something better, or something that would at least be equivalent without sacrificing early game power. The RoA buy is to mirror the same reason toplane Maokai gets it, give you aggressive early game stats, and tankiness, all while giving you constant map pressure with large mana pool. Also before the E nerf, 20mr+20armor makes the health a lot more efficient. | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Looking at non support build orders in probuilds, I see zero Catalysts, and zero ROAs. I see Righteous glory on support Annie a few times but that's it. I do see a ton of Morellos. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On January 29 2015 08:56 Ketara wrote: But why is the Catalyst mandatory? it's not mandatory, but it's probably the best buy for toplane Annie. Unless of course you're okay with getting your poo poo shoved in on toplane from a ton of matchups. | ||
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ricecake
152 Posts
On January 29 2015 08:50 Zess wrote: "Bruiser Annie" is a misnomer because while you do build some HP, Annie will never be a Ryze, Alistar, or Maokai. This guide/discussion is for a more HP-focused Annie that shows up predominantly in Top lane due to the mandatory Catalyst. I have renamed the thread so we can avoid the confusion and spreading of misinformation such as thinking that after you have 10k gold worth of items the other team is still going to let you sit in lane and try to harass your likely melee opponent down with Q+AA harass. The entire discussion is centered around how if you build Annie tanky, she becomes a bruiser. This feels like you're editing the original post to fit your own views which is ridiculous. On January 29 2015 08:59 wei2coolman wrote: it's not mandatory, but it's probably the best buy for toplane Annie. Unless of course you're okay with getting your poo poo shoved in on toplane from a ton of matchups. That doesn't actually say anything. I'm still not convinced you need it especially if you start flask. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On January 29 2015 09:39 ricecake wrote: The entire discussion is centered around how if you build Annie tanky, she becomes a bruiser. This feels like you're editing the original post to fit your own views which is ridiculous. That doesn't actually say anything. I'm still not convinced you need it especially if you start flask. Flask might be fine if you're playing against a top laner that can't all-in you, and you just need to sustain through early levels, but in reality by level 3 or 4, most bruiser kits in toplane should be able to all in you successfully if you don't build early health. IMO the alternative to RoA first, is probably double dorans + armguard, is probably a decent alternative, giving you enough tank stats to survive early, and get another item isntead of RoA first, like zhonya's | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Catalyst gives you 200 HP. Blasting Wand gives you like 100 minimum extra damage in an all in fight. That's maybe not completely comparable, but I feel like there has to be some reason why pro players appear to have stopped buying ROA on Annie altogether. | ||
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