EPT[Champion] Sejuani - Page 8
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35145 Posts
I honestly feel it's more of a playstyle decision. | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On March 18 2015 03:08 Gahlo wrote: Penetration shouldn't really matter late game because while you do a decent amount of damage for a tank, you probably aren't dealing significant enough damage for that to be worth it. Nobody outside of Mundo should be taking perseverance, that shit is garbage. %DR and Crit damage reduction is pretty much imperative for a tank late. Literally the only thing I miss while going 9/21 instead of 21/9 come late game is Dangerous Game, but at that point I'd rather be 14/16 instead of 21/9 for it. I honestly feel it's more of a playstyle decision. Hmm, looking at a 16/14 spread, it seems to make a lot of sense. I really don't care for Havoc (l0l look at what I'm building) or Tenacious (l0l plz CC me instead of my carries). What I have in mind | ||
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Gahlo
United States35145 Posts
On March 18 2015 03:31 NeoIllusions wrote: Hmm, looking at a 16/14 spread, it seems to make a lot of sense. I really don't care for Havoc (l0l look at what I'm building) or Tenacious (l0l plz CC me instead of my carries). What I have in mind Block and unyielding lose a lot of value on a jungler. You're better off getting 2 in Enchanted Armor, since you're going to be building a decent amount of resists anyway, Bladed Armor. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
This is the difference between my mastery page and Wheelkings mastery page. 9/21 +5 armor +4 per nearby enemy champion +2 MR per nearby enemy champion -3% damage from slowed enemies 0.675% missing HP regen 10% reduced crit damage 15% tenacity 21/9 4 + 0.55 per level AD +2 damage to minions/monsters +6% pen +5% damage to champs under 50% +3% damage So, I want to look at 3 things. #1 - Clear speed. #2 - How tanky you are with each page. #3 - How much damage you do with each page. Clear speed is the easiest, I'm gonna record how fast I hit 6 with each page, doing the same clear and same runes/items. I'll also record my HP/mana at the end of the clear. 9/21: 6:41, 875 HP 246 mana 21/9: 6:36, 850 HP 270 mana So, as we can see, it's pretty similar. I'm willing to bet the HP/Mana differences are inconsequential and just based on how efficient I was. The reason why the first clear is faster, but the level 6 is so similar, is because in the second and third clears you have to stand and wait at most of the camps for the respawns. This means the faster you're killing the camps, the more time you have to wait, so while 21/9 finishes the first clear faster, the difference between the first clears is larger than the difference between the first three clears. Since you're not going to gank at the end of your first clear, you don't actually care about the timing. The reason why we worry about the clear timings is because we're worried about when our gank timing is. So it's this level 6 timing that we should be concerned with. Post level 6 when you've got 4+ points in W, you melt camps no matter what's going on. So aside from getting to 6 5-10 seconds faster, the difference in the mastery pages actually doesn't significantly affect your clear speed. To further illustrate that there's not much of a difference in clear speed, this is the average jungle stats for Wheelking and I from bluebaron.net. We're both D5 Sejuani jungle mains atm. Wheelking EXP per minute: 335.1 Gold per minute: 279.78 Ketara EXP per minute: 342.59 Gold per minute: 262.53 So, they're pretty similar. Wheelking is getting slightly more gold, and I'm getting slightly more EXP. Probably playstyle differences and not build differences, he probably ganks more and I probably farm more. That's not just different masteries either, that's him running AD reds and trailblazer and me running Armor reds and stalkers. You'd think that with runes, masteries and items in favor of clear speed for him, I wouldn't be getting higher EXP per minute. I am actually getting tired of this post, so I'll do damage and tankiness later ha! | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Cost efficiency aside, RG active is so nice on Sej to chase people down with Q or R. I think I managed to 3QR for a max range ulti one game and the stun was long enough for me to get into Smite range then WE for the slow/kill. I think with her build more or less set, I just need to get more proficient at not overlapping all her slows (W E Smite). Also managed to finish 6 items by 32 minutes in one of these games, which is unheard of for me with my other junglers. Was a fun discussion with everyone. I'll probably move on to Zac in a few days as a secondary Cinderhulk user (per aura's suggestion). Maybe see of you there. o/ | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
If I grab some of the numbers from the earlier post, we can see how much the pen and Havoc etc are increasing our DPS. 346.31 + 3.53% max HP going 9/21 with Abyssal. I'll pick our 92 MR example. After Havoc and Executioner: 365.61 + 3.72% max HP. After mpen: 21/9 219.61 + 2.23% max HP. 9/21 201.34 + 2.05% max HP So it's roughly 9% more damage. Next we've got to look at the tankiness. I already have the EHP values from the earlier math too hah! Yay for me! This is for 9/21. EHP vs Phys - 12611.04 EHP vs Magic - 9400.07 So, for 21/9, we've got 26.25 less armor and 10.5 less MR. EHP vs Phys - 11433 EHP vs Magic - 9059 So, you're about 10% tankier vs phys, and 4% tankier vs magic. If you're taking 50% phys/magic damage, you're about 7% tankier. But that's not the whole picture, because we have to assume 3% less damage against slowed targets, and 10% less crit damage. If you're getting FH, everything is movement impaired all of the time, since the FH aura counts for that. Even when you don't have FH, lets be real you're Sejuani, shit is slowed all of the time. Our resistances are: Armor - 320.95, 196.1 after pen MR - 224.55, 109.4 after pen So we take 33.77% phys damage, and 47.75% magic damage. After Oppression, it's 32.75 and 46.31. So Oppression makes you about 1.23% tankier against 50/50 phys/magic damage. Now we're at 8.23%. Next, how good is crit reduction? It's complicated, because it depends on how many people on their team buy crit and how much crit they have. But lets assume that one third of the enemy teams damage late game is coming from the ADC, and that ADC has IE+Shiv for 45% crit at 250% crit damage. So 45% of the ADCs attacks are crits, and each crit is doing 2.5x damage, right. So if the ADC does 100 attacks at 100 damage each, he's doing 6500 attack damage and 11250 crit damage. 17750 total. So about 63.4% of his damage is crits. Lets also say 25% of the ADCs late game damage is from skills (again, depends on the ADC, this is just an example) So ultimately about 15.5% of the enemy teams damage is coming from crits, which means that 10% less crit damage is reducing the enemy teams total damage by about 1.5%. This is again just an example, crit reduction is going to have different values in different games. But what I'm trying to show is that it's at least about as good as Oppression, and potentially a lot better. So, if it's about as good as Oppression, we're now at 9.46%. So, ultimately, 21/9 does about 9% more damage, and 9/21 makes you 9.46% tankier. The thing is though, 9/21 also gives you Tenacity and HP Regen, while 21/9 is pretty much only adding damage and not really doing anything else. Also, since you're often going to be focused in fights (if you're doing it right), and most of your damage is sustained, surviving 9% longer means you'll do more damage and have more impact on the fight through CC. Based on surviving longer, I'd say that the difference in damage for 21/9 is actually some amount less than 9%. It's a matter of preference, but IMO as far as teamfights are concerned, 9/21 is going to outperform 21/9. The caveat here is that all these numbers are for a 5v5. They aren't for things like early/mid game 2v1's or 2v2's, where I think 21/9 will probably shine, since those situations are usually about killing people before they can get back to their tower. So basically, these are my conclusions. 21/9 clear speed is slightly faster, but arguably negligable. 9/21 is better in 5v5 teamfights. 21/9 is better in small gank situations like 2v1 etc. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Link! Actually, now that I look at that, Dangerous Game is probably better than Expose Weakness, but anyways. I'm not gonna go too far into the details on that one, I'm sure its fine. But here's a comparison of what each of these pages has, ignoring the things that all three have or can have: 9/21 +5 armor +4 per nearby enemy champion +2 MR per nearby enemy champion -3% damage from slowed enemies 0.675% missing HP regen 10% reduced crit damage 15% tenacity 21/9 4 + 0.55 per level AD +2 damage to minions/monsters +6% pen +5% damage to champs under 50% +3% damage 16/14 +5 Armor 10% crit reduction -3% damage from slowed enemies 4 + 0.55 per level AD +5% damage to champs under 50% For 16/14 vs. 9/21, you're losing Legendary Guardian and Tenacity, and gaining AD and Executioner. For 16/14 vs. 21/9, you're gaining 5 Armor, Oppression and Crit Reduction, and losing penetration and 3% damage. It's not as though one is strictly better than the other, it's just pretty 50/50. And Neo is right in that Tenacity is not a super desirable 21 pointer on Sejuani. It's not bad, you get it when you're already up there, but we're not really going to 21 Defense for Tenacity, we're doing it for Legendary Guardian. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Something like: Link! | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
They're both fantastic. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I guess I prefer "big swing" masteries. Dangerous Game is the canonical example of a "big swing" mastery, and I think Enhanced Recall/Scout are similar. Perseverance means maybe lasting half a second longer in a teamfight, but that usually doesn't change the outcome of the fight either way. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Okay, remember before when I did clears, this is what my 9/21 level 6 looked like: 9/21: 6:41, 875 HP Lemme do the exact same thing, but remove the 2 points in Perserverence and see what I get. 9/21: 6:43, 750 HP See the difference? I actually took extra damage from krugs by accident that clear, so it's really probably only like a 50 HP difference. But 50 HP for 2 mastery points is a lot. Basically, unlike in top lane, as a jungler you're sub 100% HP essentially all of the time, because you're taking damage as you're clearing. So you're getting a lot of value out of Perserverence that can be kinda hard to see. I don't think it's the best thing in the defense tree, but it's certainly worth the points. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35145 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Doing more damage is more useful than absorbing more damage in situations where you're racing to finish a baron/dragon/tower/crab/counterjungle expedition. Basically if you imagine your champion on the damage <-> tankiness scale, I see masteries as a "cheap" way to slightly finetune my build towards damage, whereas items move the dial in significant and expensive chunks at a time. To get damage through items on Sejuani, I'd have to spend a minimum of 1485 gold, but to get damage through masteries is much cheaper. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
If you leave the base at less than 100% HP, that regained HP still matters. If you leave the base at 100% HP, it's saving you time. If you sit around at 100% HP in the fountain, you're being inefficient. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I think we need a separate Masteries thread where we can debate proper ways to allocate points generally. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I'm not trying to argue that Perserverence is a super strong mastery, I'm arguing that it's better than being able to place wards farther like you suggested, which nobody takes ever because it's completely fucking useless. I'd much MUCH rather have 5 Armor, 2.5 MR, and 0.675% missing HP regen than 0.5% movespeed, improved recall and ward distance, or 1.5% movespeed. Hell, I'd rather have 5 Armor and 2.5 MR than 1.5% movespeed in general, the Perserverence points are just bonus. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I agree that Legendary Guardian is super good on Sejuani. But I am less enthusiastic about it if you are also set on Dangerous Game. | ||
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DrunkenOne
United States302 Posts
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