V5.6: URF Mode, March 25th, 2015 Flail of the Northern Winds * Damage reduced to 4/5.5/7/8.5/10% from 4/6/8/10/12%. Glacial Prison * Slow reduced to 30% from 90%.
V4.21: Rek'Sai, December 10th, 2014 Stats * Base health increased to 600 from 599.6. * Base mana increased to 400 from 287.2. Arctic Assault * Base damage increased to 80/125/170/215/260 from 40/70/100/130/160. * Damage scaling from target's maximum health removed. Flail of the Northern Winds * Mana cost reduced to 40/35/30/25/20 from 40 at all ranks. * On-hit damage changed to 4/6/8/10/12% (+3% per 100AP) of target's maximum health from 40/60/80/100/120 (+30% AP). * Total aura damage changed to 40/70/100/130/160 (+60% AP)(+4/6/8/10/12% maximum health) from 80/120/160/200/240 (+60% AP)(+10% bonus health). Permafrost * Cooldown reduced to 10/9/8/7/6 seconds from 11 at all ranks. * Base damage reduced to 60/90/120/150/180 from 60/110/160/210/260. * Slow duration reduced to 1.5 seconds at all ranks from 1.5/1.75/2/2.25/ 2.5.
V4.20: Preseason 5, November 20th, 2014 *All champions have had their base stats changed.
Abilities Passive: Frost Armor Damaging an enemy with an ability or basic attack grants 10/15/20/25 bonus armor and reduces movement-slowing effects on Sejuani by 10/15/20/25% for 2 seconds. Subsequent damage will increase the duration by 2 seconds up to a cap of ~8 seconds, with further damage refreshing the duration.
Q: Arctic Assault Active: Sejuani charges forward, knocking enemies into the air and dealing magic damage equal to a flat amount plus a percentage of their maximum health (max 300 damage to monsters). This charge stops after knocking an enemy champion into the air.
W: Flail of the Northern Winds Active: Sejuani's next basic attack deals bonus magic damage to the target and enemies near it. She then swings her flail, dealing magic damage to nearby enemies over 4 seconds. If this ability is reactivated, Sejuani immediately starts swinging her flail.
Cooldown: 11/10/9/8/7 Cost: 40/35/30/25/20 Mana On-Hit Magic Damage: 4/5.5/7/8.5/10% Target's Max Health (+3% per 100AP) AOE Damage: 40/70/100/130/160 (+60% AP)(+4/6/8/10/12% Max Health) Radius: 350
E: Permafrost Sejuani's abilities and basic attacks passively apply Frost to enemies for 4 seconds. Activate converts Frost on nearby enemies to Permafrost, dealing magic damage and reduces their movement speed for a few seconds.
R: Glacial Prison (Active): Sejuani throws her frost-forged bola in a line. If the bola hits an enemy champion, it shatters, stunning the target and nearby enemies for a duration. If the bola reaches its maximum range, it shatters and slows enemies by 30% instead. All enemies in the shatter area take magic damage.
Sejuani is a slow-based tank. Her goal is to get up in the middle of their team fight, making combat mobility a pain by dishing out hefty slows and pulsing magic damage. Her ult and Q give her strong single target and AOE initiation. She doesn't have the best dueling, causing her to be relegated to the jungle. Moderately strong ganks early, scaling to devastating with ult.
Pros • Great initiator • Strong array of CC • Deceptively high sustained damage • Walljumps can play into many cute tactics
Cons • Vulnerable during first clear • Poor duelist • Terrible at holding a turret by herself
I was forged by winter.
Runes:
Marks: Armor, Attack Damage, and Attack Speed are all fair game.
Locket being in the 'eeeeeeeh' items is a bit ridiculous. its the first item you build on her pretty much every game after SOTAG.
max W, not E for sure
SotAG->tabi->locket->FH or SV->randuins/sunfire/warmogs (pick 2 of 3 depending on game) in whichever order is pretty much the best build 99% of the time
Locket being in the 'eeeeeeeh' items is a bit ridiculous. its the first item you build on her pretty much every game after SOTAG.
max W, not E for sure
SotAG->tabi->FH or SV->randuins/sunfire/warmogs in whichever order is pretty much the best build.
E gives stronger gank power, W gives better clear. Very playstyle dependant because E is far stronger when you go to gank somebody(duration and slow% goes up).
Locket is a pretty poor item because of its shitty buildup on a jungler. It's still a pretty good item.
Locket being in the 'eeeeeeeh' items is a bit ridiculous. its the first item you build on her pretty much every game after SOTAG.
max W, not E for sure
SotAG->tabi->FH or SV->randuins/sunfire/warmogs in whichever order is pretty much the best build.
Funny how locket is nowhere in the "best build." After the recent changes, locket just isn't worth rushing anymore.
For 100g less than Locket, you can get Warden's Mail and Specter's Cowl. You trade 100hp, 10% CDR, Legion, and the shield active for 30 armor, 45 MR, Cold Steel, and the heal on damage. You also get the benefit of, after that, having the cornerstones for the best tank items in the game.
By the time of your first max, W first only adds 30 damage. This is assuming that you start W from the auto attack and get all the pulses from W. Meanwhile, E first increases the slow by 20% and duration by 1 second and is less reliant on getting all the W pulses.
Due to the slight shift in meta in jungling, Sej has sort of fallen out in flavour for stronger, early game junglers such as Lee-sin, Voli, Udyr, Xin. If you see any of these champions jungling, you and your team have to be that much more alert overall for the incoming red-buff gank.
You have 2 choices, start red, or ask support to ward near your red. At lower leagues, every time I'm against a slower jungler, it's just asking for me to gank them when they take their red. On blue side, you would rather start red because you have mid, adc and support to help kill faster.
I always max E first as well since the burst is what you want rather than damage over time when you gank.
Sorry, accidentally forgot to put locket in after tabi's.
Locket is absolutely worth 'rushing' after SotAG. You really seem to be underestimating how much stats it gives in a team fight....It's not all about personal stats.
By my count by the time you first max E you'd be missing 50 damage, not 30. Also you'd have a 10 second (not including cdr) W cd isntead of 7 second cd going in to team fights. And from my experience, using both W+E on camps is going to clear much slower and cost more mana.
On August 21 2013 19:36 Complete wrote: Sorry, accidentally forgot to put locket in after tabi's.
Locket is absolutely worth 'rushing' after SotAG. You really seem to be underestimating how much stats it gives in a team fight....It's not all about personal stats.
By my count by the time you first max E you'd be missing 50 damage, not 30. Also you'd have a 10 second (not including cdr) W cd isntead of 7 second cd going in to team fights. And from my experience, using both W+E on camps is going to clear much slower and cost more mana.
If you put Locket in you have to remove another item, which is probably Warmog's. Are far as combat stat's go, it more like combat stat. MR is the only meaningful thin the Aura provides anymore. It needs to effect two other people before the MR total surpasses Cowl. Locket doesn't provide enough in gank situations to make it worthwhile over selfish half items.
W Max: 120+240+110=470 E Max 60+120+260=440
Clearing is pointless to debate, since both clear incredibly fast taking Golem damage amp into account.
I need help with Sejuani. I see her numbers, her abilitys and I think, wow there is no way this is not op! Then I go into the game and everything goes downhill... I'm going to ask the very dumb question "how do you balance ganking and farming the jungle", but hear me out. the first clear is brutal, I feel like I do no damage so everything is very slow. It gets alot better with levels so I tend to stick inside the jungle for it. About the no damage part, early game i feel like I do no damage, so whenever I gank early I am scared as fuck of a counter gank. Any strong early game enemy jungler can and will kick my ass if opportunity presents itself. That also leads me to "power up" alone a bit in the jungle. Even if the cc is insane, I feel you can't gank for lanes with low damage because you will just get fk'd over. So what do you guys do? the standart 3 minute gank with double buff? Do you wait for a further point into the game (power rush lvl 6 for example?)? Do you tax alot your lanes early? Is E>W really that straightforward, isn't your clear slowed alot by it?
sejuani is my most played champ this season, and i do quite well with her. i will second the max e idea, i usually go w-e-q-w-e-r, and then max e.
for early ganks it is very important to use your skills wisely. try to run up on the enemy and w-e them, and then when they are running you q. initiating a gank with your q is doing it wrong.
a lot of the info in the guide is exactly how i play her. 9/21/0. same runes (attack speed reds), ive tried mpen reds, but much prefer the attack speed. for items i play it game by game. i always start the jungle health item, and ninja tabi, but then what you build after that depends on how the game is going. look at the enemy team and build accordingly. if they have a vlad top and an ap mid then rush a spectral cowl, if they have a bunch of ad then rush a randiun or frozen heart. sometimes i also just get a giants belt/ruby crystal on my first back after the core is completed.
On August 21 2013 22:38 SagaZ wrote: I need help with Sejuani. I see her numbers, her abilitys and I think, wow there is no way this is not op! Then I go into the game and everything goes downhill... I'm going to ask the very dumb question "how do you balance ganking and farming the jungle", but hear me out. the first clear is brutal, I feel like I do no damage so everything is very slow. It gets alot better with levels so I tend to stick inside the jungle for it. About the no damage part, early game i feel like I do no damage, so whenever I gank early I am scared as fuck of a counter gank. Any strong early game enemy jungler can and will kick my ass if opportunity presents itself. That also leads me to "power up" alone a bit in the jungle. Even if the cc is insane, I feel you can't gank for lanes with low damage because you will just get fk'd over. So what do you guys do? the standart 3 minute gank with double buff? Do you wait for a further point into the game (power rush lvl 6 for example?)? Do you tax alot your lanes early? Is E>W really that straightforward, isn't your clear slowed alot by it?
You're a tanky CC jungler. Your goal isn't to do amaze balls damage, but to lock down your gankee long enough for your crappy laner to finish him off. You want to abuse your level 3 gank, as you have better CC at that time than, say, Jarvan. If you sit around farming all day, you will keep falling further behind. If you make a successful gank and the laner gets the kill(or if he can't push well), help him push the lane. If you get the kill and he can push by himself, back off.
Each line represents total W+E damage at that level when maxing the other one second. No entry is given at 6 due to ult. Lvl 8 is when you pick up the second rank in the other. X-----4-----5-----7------8-----9 W:240--300--360--410--470 E: 230--280--330--390--440
Even taking into account Spirit Stone, a round of your spells is at worst 36 damage behind. This might cause a grand total of 1 extra auto against a big mob.
On August 24 2013 04:40 GhostOwl wrote: sejuani looks really strong right now, how reliable is her CC? she only has 2 right?
She has 3. Q pops up, E slows, R stuns or slows. Q is collision based, E requires you to have hit the enemy with an auto attack or spell, then use to E to trigger all debuffs withing a 1000 range radius. R is a skillshot. On colission it stuns, if you whiff it gives a massive slow.
On August 21 2013 22:38 SagaZ wrote: I need help with Sejuani. I see her numbers, her abilitys and I think, wow there is no way this is not op! Then I go into the game and everything goes downhill... I'm going to ask the very dumb question "how do you balance ganking and farming the jungle", but hear me out. the first clear is brutal, I feel like I do no damage so everything is very slow. It gets alot better with levels so I tend to stick inside the jungle for it. About the no damage part, early game i feel like I do no damage, so whenever I gank early I am scared as fuck of a counter gank. Any strong early game enemy jungler can and will kick my ass if opportunity presents itself. That also leads me to "power up" alone a bit in the jungle. Even if the cc is insane, I feel you can't gank for lanes with low damage because you will just get fk'd over. So what do you guys do? the standart 3 minute gank with double buff? Do you wait for a further point into the game (power rush lvl 6 for example?)? Do you tax alot your lanes early? Is E>W really that straightforward, isn't your clear slowed alot by it?
You're a tanky CC jungler. Your goal isn't to do amaze balls damage, but to lock down your gankee long enough for your crappy laner to finish him off. You want to abuse your level 3 gank, as you have better CC at that time than, say, Jarvan. If you sit around farming all day, you will keep falling further behind. If you make a successful gank and the laner gets the kill(or if he can't push well), help him push the lane. If you get the kill and he can push by himself, back off.
Each line represents total W+E damage at that level when maxing the other one second. No entry is given at 6 due to ult. Lvl 8 is when you pick up the second rank in the other. X-----4-----5-----7------8-----9 W:240--300--360--410--470 E: 230--280--330--390--440
Even taking into account Spirit Stone, a round of your spells is at worst 36 damage behind. This might cause a grand total of 1 extra auto against a big mob.
One thing that's important to keep in mind when comparing these two, though, is that sejuani doesn't have as much manaless freedom as some/most others. Maxing E does provide you with the most bang for your buck *if* you have the mana to support it. But the more points you have in it, the thinner the tightrope becomes between being able to farm and supporting a gank if the opportunity arises.
Because neither spell out-scales the other, I actually prefer to go WEQW, and then from there, determine if I can squeeze one more point into W before starting to max E. Even with just two points in W, it helps smooth out smaller camps early on; and the difference between a level 7 that is 3/2 vs 4/1...well, I've never seen it make a difference. (Level 8 and 9 will look the same no matter how you got there!)
Similarly, once E is maxed (or even "high enough") you need to feel flexible enough to put extra points into Q as well. If teamfights are going to be extended encounters, having a shorter cooldown to potentially charge twice can help your team far more than a few extra damage per second in AoE. This is much more situational though.
If you compute how much move distance you deprive them of with Permafrost (by multiplying the duration by the slow), you get 75/96/120/146/175% of their base movement. Given that people have about 360 base movespeed, a level 5 permafrost deprives them of the ability to move 360 units more than a level 1 permafrost. That's almost a flash's distance extra from ranking up E. Granted, people may do other things than run during the duration, but something is seriously wrong if your gank targets are standing and fighting you.
Permafrost has three other things going for it:
1) Slowing people down means your laners are more likely to hit skillshots and get in range to murder the target 2) You can't miss ticks of damage on your E when they flash out or just outrun you 3) Slowing them down means you're more likely to land all of your W, giving you potentially more damage anyway
It also makes your initiations even scarier. Land your ult, frost most of their team, and then permafrost once they come out of the ult stun/slow. They'll be not going anywhere for a long-ass time, long enough for your team to do whatever it is that they do to murder them.
Any decrease in jungle speed, or increase in mana use, is not that big of a deal to me. She clears fast enough, and while I do run oom fairly frequently I'd rather have the extra fight power.
On August 25 2013 13:05 FinestHour wrote: never gets banned ever but so strong honestly anyone that mains jungle should def learn this guy
Seriously. Amumu banned? Guess I'll just have to play a better version...
That's sort of my attitude, too. People who ban Amumu because he offers ridiculous late-game cc are banning the wrong champ. Mumu offers better damage and a bit better tankiness, but as far as cc and initiation power, the pig is way better.
On August 25 2013 13:05 FinestHour wrote: never gets banned ever but so strong honestly anyone that mains jungle should def learn this guy
Seriously. Amumu banned? Guess I'll just have to play a better version...
That's sort of my attitude, too. People who ban Amumu because he offers ridiculous late-game cc are banning the wrong champ. Mumu offers better damage and a bit better tankiness, but as far as cc and initiation power, the pig is way better.
Better damage is debatable. While I haven't ran the #s for rework, pre-rework sejuani brought similar damage.
I'll agree with you there. After the rework I definitely felt a falloff in damage; the % health scaling (mine, not theirs) really boosted her W damage before more than it seems to now.
If we consider a level 9 Sejuani with 1290 base health (new) or 1200 (old) and 1000 bonus health (she'll have spirit of ancient golem, belt or sunfire, plus more from masteries), she'll do:
Pulling the history from lolwiki, a full channel old W on a frosted target did 330 + 75% AP + 15% of Sejuani's total health. That's 330 more damage from her health, or 660 damage.
The new one does 360 + 90% AP + 10% of Sejuani's *bonus* health. That's 460 damage.
(But this is pedantry: none of this changes the conclusion that she's sufficiently scary to get far more picks/bans than she does)
-Downloaded League a couple of weeks ago and bought this hero due to crazy AoE CC ult -Currently level 20ish and messing around in summoner's rift solo queue unranked -She's relegated to jungle (where I am practicing and trying to get faster) and am having some trouble getting off ganks pre-6. I think my timing is decent; usually I'm equal level to top lane and 1 higher than bottom lane when I try to do my initial gank
How do you gank pre-6 with her?
I only seem to get kills when the enemy is terrible. Do I have to tell the laners to bait/engage and then I walk in? Sometimes I'm tempted to initiate with my Q but then that leaves me without a gap closer or an escape. Or should I just not bother most of the time?
On August 29 2013 16:30 scrubtastic wrote: Noob questions:
-Downloaded League a couple of weeks ago and bought this hero due to crazy AoE CC ult -Currently level 20ish and messing around in summoner's rift solo queue unranked -She's relegated to jungle (where I am practicing and trying to get faster) and am having some trouble getting off ganks pre-6. I think my timing is decent; usually I'm equal level to top lane and 1 higher than bottom lane when I try to do my initial gank
How do you gank pre-6 with her?
I only seem to get kills when the enemy is terrible. Do I have to tell the laners to bait/engage and then I walk in? Sometimes I'm tempted to initiate with my Q but then that leaves me without a gap closer or an escape. Or should I just not bother most of the time?
You want to initiate with Q unless your laner has a hard CC. If you aim it right, then they flash and you walk away.
Why would you need a gap closer/escape if you're trying to gank unless there are 2 people there? You point your gap closer to hit the guy, go, and if it hits, mash buttons, if they flash/juke, then just walk away, maybe smiting the cannon creep.
On August 29 2013 16:30 scrubtastic wrote: Noob questions:
-Downloaded League a couple of weeks ago and bought this hero due to crazy AoE CC ult -Currently level 20ish and messing around in summoner's rift solo queue unranked -She's relegated to jungle (where I am practicing and trying to get faster) and am having some trouble getting off ganks pre-6. I think my timing is decent; usually I'm equal level to top lane and 1 higher than bottom lane when I try to do my initial gank
How do you gank pre-6 with her?
I only seem to get kills when the enemy is terrible. Do I have to tell the laners to bait/engage and then I walk in? Sometimes I'm tempted to initiate with my Q but then that leaves me without a gap closer or an escape. Or should I just not bother most of the time?
You want to initiate with Q unless your laner has a hard CC. If you aim it right, then they flash and you walk away.
Why would you need a gap closer/escape if you're trying to gank unless there are 2 people there? You point your gap closer to hit the guy, go, and if it hits, mash buttons, if they flash/juke, then just walk away, maybe smiting the cannon creep.
No, when you're ganking, blowing your CC right away is the wrong way around unless it's a guaranteed kill. You want to run at them, forcing them to use their escape, and Q them after.
On August 29 2013 16:30 scrubtastic wrote: Noob questions:
-Downloaded League a couple of weeks ago and bought this hero due to crazy AoE CC ult -Currently level 20ish and messing around in summoner's rift solo queue unranked -She's relegated to jungle (where I am practicing and trying to get faster) and am having some trouble getting off ganks pre-6. I think my timing is decent; usually I'm equal level to top lane and 1 higher than bottom lane when I try to do my initial gank
How do you gank pre-6 with her?
I only seem to get kills when the enemy is terrible. Do I have to tell the laners to bait/engage and then I walk in? Sometimes I'm tempted to initiate with my Q but then that leaves me without a gap closer or an escape. Or should I just not bother most of the time?
You want to initiate with Q unless your laner has a hard CC. If you aim it right, then they flash and you walk away.
Why would you need a gap closer/escape if you're trying to gank unless there are 2 people there? You point your gap closer to hit the guy, go, and if it hits, mash buttons, if they flash/juke, then just walk away, maybe smiting the cannon creep.
No, when you're ganking, blowing your CC right away is the wrong way around unless it's a guaranteed kill. You want to run at them, forcing them to use their escape, and Q them after.
Sometimes you're in a position where they can use flash to survive your gank no matter what you do. This usually happens in top lane, where you're coming in at more of a shallow angle. In this case it's better to Q at them before they get to tower, even though they can flash it. They might not flash, in which case you put damage on them (and, in the best case, have to flash in the end anyway). They might flash, in which case you just come back and murder them later -- you definitely want to get their flash if you can. Even if you can't kill them if the Q connects, even if they can juke it, give them the opportunity to blow flash. At lower leagues, people aren't quite sure how much damage Sejuani can do or how her kit works, so sometimes people will flash away from a Q that they don't need to.
On September 09 2013 13:44 GTPGlitch wrote: Just out of curiousity, why don't people run sejuani toplane ala malphite?
Well I don't think Sejuani's a good duelist. Malphite at least has a niche that he's good against harass due to his shield maybe.
I think Sej's Q is just as good as Malph's E in terms of cc duration. I'm not sure about damage. If you knock someone up for 1.5 seconds, it's the same thing or better than slowing their attack speed 50% for 3 seconds. I don't know how long Sej's knockup is but most are around 1.5 seconds I think. Malphite isn't played much top either and when he is, he often loses lanes imo to stronger duelists. Also Q harass is good in top lane.
On September 09 2013 13:44 GTPGlitch wrote: Just out of curiousity, why don't people run sejuani toplane ala malphite?
Well I don't think Sejuani's a good duelist. Malphite at least has a niche that he's good against harass due to his shield maybe.
I think Sej's Q is just as good as Malph's E in terms of cc duration. I'm not sure about damage. If you knock someone up for 1.5 seconds, it's the same thing or better than slowing their attack speed 50% for 3 seconds. I don't know how long Sej's knockup is but most are around 1.5 seconds I think. Malphite isn't played much top either and when he is, he often loses lanes imo to stronger duelists. Also Q harass is good in top lane.
I think you should try it out.
I doubt Sej's Q knocks up for more than 0.5 sec, but the wiki doesn't say (it doesn't feel longer than zac's E which is 0.5 sec). Unless I missed a spell, no non ult spells knocks up for more than 1 sec and no spell knocks up for more than 1.5 sec.
The problem with Sej toplane is that her kit is centered around teamfighting, not lane dueling. She has no sustain and few ways to not get bullied out of lane. Malphite has his shield, poke from his Q, and his E lets him win slapfights.
Sej is an awesome jungler, but I think she'll just be bullied badly top.
Yep, i agree Sejuani top lane doesn't work, her skills are so aoe based for a lane, you'll push quite hard, specially at top lane this is really bad due to his lenght, makes you really vulnerable to ganks, her autoatack animation is also pretty bad imo.
I know a lot of people get AS marks. I'm not quite sure I agree but all the marks are pretty shitty on Sej.
Primary marks.
Armor pen
Attack damage
Attack speed
crit chance
good early clears.
poor to worthless in ganks
poor late game burst
crit damage
worthless
hybrid pen
magic pen
magic pen is worthless for clears.
Magic pen is good late game
hybrid pen is poor for early clears but it's something
Scaling Attack Damage
worthless to poor early game.
Still quite poor late game compared to mpen.
Feels like you get as much from one mastery (bladed armor) than you do from like 5 marks in terms of early clear speed and the only runes that are decent for giving you burst for ganks or snipes late game are mpen runes which are worthless early game. I'm seriously considering just getting 8 extra armor with my marks.
Better sustain than any offensive marks
Does nothing for ganks (unless theres a counter gank or you're diving a tower)
Makes you tankier late game teamfights
2/3 efficiency
Compare this stuff to someone like Jungle Jarvan: AD good for early clears good scaling into late game helps with ganks
WW AS good for early clears good scaling into late game helps with ganks (once he gets a wits end)
Do you run movespeed quints with that? I personally still like going AP quints + magic pen marks on her, so you actually have damage in your early ganks. It's also great if you end up building a liandrys lategame.
On October 22 2013 18:56 Fildun wrote: Do you run movespeed quints with that? I personally still like going AP quints + magic pen marks on her, so you actually have damage in your early ganks. It's also great if you end up building a liandrys lategame.
I actually need to investigate Quints too. I think movement speed makes sense but Sej's sustain in the jungle is shit with magic pen so I get lifesteal quints.
At least with quints, if the offensive quints suck you can pick defensive ones or miscellaneous quints and you don't lose any efficiency.
On October 22 2013 18:56 Fildun wrote: Do you run movespeed quints with that? I personally still like going AP quints + magic pen marks on her, so you actually have damage in your early ganks. It's also great if you end up building a liandrys lategame.
I actually need to investigate Quints too. I think movement speed makes sense but Sej's sustain in the jungle is shit with magic pen so I get lifesteal quints.
At least with quints, if the offensive quints suck you can pick defensive ones or miscellaneous quints and you don't lose any efficiency.
Hmmm, I never find her sustain to be that bad after the first clear, and you have enough potions for that first clear. So that's why I usually run AP or movespeed quints on her.
On October 22 2013 18:56 Fildun wrote: Do you run movespeed quints with that? I personally still like going AP quints + magic pen marks on her, so you actually have damage in your early ganks. It's also great if you end up building a liandrys lategame.
I actually need to investigate Quints too. I think movement speed makes sense but Sej's sustain in the jungle is shit with magic pen so I get lifesteal quints.
At least with quints, if the offensive quints suck you can pick defensive ones or miscellaneous quints and you don't lose any efficiency.
Hmmm, I never find her sustain to be that bad after the first clear, and you have enough potions for that first clear. So that's why I usually run AP or movespeed quints on her.
Yeah. I usually end up buying 5+ health pots after the first clear though. Like she'll still need 1 pot for every red/blue to stay within 100 health of topped off. Then if you gank someone and take some damage from that and want to gank again / react to counterganks without going back you need more pots. What a lot of the pros do when they jungle in solo queue though, it they gank very infrequently and back more. They'll clear their entire jungle as Sej or some champion similar to Sej(Amumu, Naut), then they'll gank once, and go back.
At my level I feel like there are many more opportunities to snowball games so I am more aggressive on Sej.
The first camp isn't as big a deal, it's your second buff where trouble will come. Unless straight level one invades, and you need a team to deal with that anyway.
On October 25 2013 05:54 Duvon wrote: The first camp isn't as big a deal, it's your second buff where trouble will come. Unless straight level one invades, and you need a team to deal with that anyway.
I'd imagine you'd only save like 50-100 life by the time you're done your second camp.
On October 25 2013 08:28 Sufficiency wrote: I think MPEN marks are OK (but if you get invaded and lose blue you are basically fucked). MS quints are still quite essential though.
If you're gonna take MPen marks in the jungle, you're better off taking split pen.
For Sej, just do the same thing a lot of high level Amumus do: start red. This is especially helpful on blue side because bot can likely give you a better "leash" than top would have anyway. The bonuses to both sides are 1) you have red buff to help assist solo blue. At level 2, this is much more significant than the crd is from blue (since you don't run out of mana in either direction). And 2) if they try to blindly counter your red, they just wasted significant time.
The blue side advantages don't even stop there. Sometimes you can convince your support to use their explo ward (if they have one) on the buff you're actively doing. That way when Udyr shows up there while you're finishing blue, you just run over to his red and laugh all the way to a two level advantage. Additionally, this path puts you in between top/mid at level 3, which often allows you to be far more helpful/proactive/etc with respect to the other jungler (assuming they did blue/red - if you scouted them doing red/blue, you have top lane all to yourself).
On October 25 2013 08:28 Sufficiency wrote: I think MPEN marks are OK (but if you get invaded and lose blue you are basically fucked). MS quints are still quite essential though.
If you're gonna take MPen marks in the jungle, you're better off taking split pen.
I see Sej once in awhile, and while I've yet to try her, I get the feeling that she is simply a better version of Amumu (whom I play often).I Typically build Amumu DPS (Sunfire, Abyssal or Hourglass, Rylais, Liandry, tanky item). Runes are MS Quints, Flat Armor yellows, MR/lv blues, and 6 AP/Lv. + 3MP reds. 9/21/0
well, u can see her AP ratios iirc Q .3 W .4 + MAX HP scalling E .5 R .8
So u can get a nuking ulti with that nice AP
but IMO, with tanky items like sunfire and warmogs, u become a totall bully againts carries and mids enemies, wich are comonly ur main targets in 1v1 u can kill EZPZ most of mids without escaping tools, ie, Lux, Annie, Karthus in carries, unless its a vayne, u 1v1then not that easy but still posible
On October 26 2013 06:41 Complete wrote: Sejuani doesn't build AP. It doesn't make sense on her. She builds health/CDR.
Items like Abyssal's and Liandry's are still really good. I wouldn't build a Rylai's on her though.
That being said her ratios are high enough that AP is really good on her, but you need to survive in close quarters for prolonged periods of time, so it makes more sense to get health/resists/cdr. Which I think is basically what you're saying, I'm just filling in the blanks.
Though if you really wanted to troll, AP Sej would be pretty beast if you're good at landing long ranged ults.
Also her W has a 0.9 AP ratio and 10% of her bonus health, if you manage to get the entire 4 seconds of it on someone (not super unlikely depending on the target). I've tried to wrap my mind over how much damage this is, and its just bonkers considering the base damage is already super high. :>
Depends on what you do in teamfights. If you are peeling for your ADC and nobody else on the team has a Liandry's it can add up some significant damage on the tanks. On the other hand if you are diving you are probably not diving alone and someone else should be the damage threat there, while you just throw all your CC at them. In a case like that Randuins is really good. Since all your spells are AoE I really don't like Rylai's on her, if you want more slows you are better off getting a Randuins or, for more sustained slows, a Frozen Mallet. Or just CDR. And imo Abyssal is only good vs triple AP with a low damage threat ADC, because usually Locket + Visage will give you all the MR you need.
The problem with building AP on her is that her ratios are, well, bad. I can see making a liandry's if nobody else has one and if I get fed. Sejuani is emphatically not a carry jungler, but sometimes your ganks just go really well and you wind up ahead coming into the teamfight phase, and finishing your full tank build early doesn't help as much as getting some damage. Liandry's fits into that situation, and it's not bad damage, given her kit; you can dive a team and spew out a lot of aoe magic damage, making it much easier for everyone else to follow up.
I don't like Rylai's; as Fildun said a 15% slow is pretty inconsequential on top of her other kit, and the AP doesn't feel like it does that much. Sure, she likes the health. But I'd rather build Spirit Visage, which gives health too, MR, regen, and will probably increase my damage by just as much through the CDR in the long run.
I think that if you're fed it's still better to rush a sunfire or something. In most cases (aka not triple AP or full AD opposing teams) going with the standard SotAG/Tabis/Sunfire/Visage/Randuins as core is still the best way to go, and I usually only build a Liandry's if I feel like I easily stay alive in teamfights, and don't need extra survivability.
Also, pure theorycraft, what about DFG? This is something I've had in mind for ages, the jungler or support buying a DFG and then using it on the target you want to burst down with magic damage.
I don't know why you guys keep saying her ratios are bad. They're bad on everything but flail of the northern winds and glacial prison, but they're exceeding good on those two skills. If you look at the OP and go "oh, her W only has a 15% AP ratio on the AOE damage" then yeah it looks terrible, but if you count the initial hit, and the entire 4 seconds it is a 90% AP ratio on the primary target. And that's completely ignoring the extra damage you get from bonus health on it.
Let's compare Sej's ratios vs Annie's for instance:
Sej: Q 0.4 (+12% max enemy health) W 0.9 (if you stay on your primary target the whole time, also 10% of your bonus health) E 0.5 R 0.8
2.60 AP on everything, even ignoring the bonuses
Annie: Q 0.70 W 0.75 E 0.20 R 0.70 (+0.2 from Tibbers flame aura, but hard to account for this)
2.35 AP ratio on her abilities if you ignore the Tibbers burn, I suppose if you count 4 seconds of tibbers burn it'd be like 3.15
Either way Sej compares pretty favorably, and no one says Annie's AP ratios are bad. Sej's cooldowns tend to be longer sure, but can we stop pretending building AP is straight up bad? It is not. You just have to survive to deal your damage. So if you already have the health/CDR/resists to survive, building AP is actually pretty damn good.
I definitely agree Randuin's tends to be a better item to finish than any of the AP ones though, provided you need more survivability and your team isn't getting wrecked by the enemy's damage. If you are surviving but your team is getting wrecked in straight up 5v5's, that's when I typically start building AP items.
Here is a general philosophy I have followed. Sure that building damage (AP in this case) will get you a kill, but it's going to get you killed especially when it comes late game. However if you build tank, you could take on the whole team and survive.
Feel free to test DFG on support/jungler budget in bronze/silver league (or normals) because saving up 1600 gold for the NLR is not happening in anything half-serious.
That's a false dichotomy. How much damage you have to tank also has to do with how long you are tanking it, and if you can kill a very high damage source faster, it is almost always going to be a good thing and preferable to having to tank that damage source for a very long time. There are situations where having more damage as Sej is useful, and to flatly make a statement that says otherwise does not change this fact.
Being left alive as the only person on your team when the enemy team has 5 people is far less valuable than being able to kill 2-3 of their squishes which saves 2 of your squishes, and now makes the fight of a 3v3.
Now DFG is another thing entirely, and I agree there it is almost never going to be worth it
On October 28 2013 04:42 zer0das wrote: sej vs annie
Annie unloads her burst very quickly from 625 range. You can unload it with the relative safety of a (flash) stun tibbers if desired
Sej has to hit a Q on her intended target somehow in order to gapclose (and in order for you to count the damage). Her gapcloser is not that fast, stops on the first champion hit and the hitbox is huge. Have fun hitting the guy you actually want to hit with that in a teamfight.
Sej has to activate W on the right target in melee in order to get the initial burst of magic damage and also has to stay alive and unCCed for 4 seconds, on her target, in order to get good ratios and this is not a trivial problem at all
Annie also has the advantage of being a midlaner. Jungle Sej is usually not going to be as farmed and if you decide to make Sej a laner I expect you to get wrecked
Good luck hitting her Q on the intended target? If no one is in the way, I have no idea how you can say a line skill shot is hard to hit. In fact often times people huddle close enough that you hit 2-3 people. I could just as easily say "Annie's w is hard to hit because it is a cone with a short range, have fun hitting the guy you want in a teamfight." Which is completely ignoring the fact you can flash tibbers stun and get a guaranteed w on your target, much like Sejuani but you don't even need to flash with her ult.
Staying alive for 4 seconds is not super trivial, but its not difficult either, especially if you land an ult on most of their team beforehand. And even if you think it is difficult to stick to an individual target, it shouldn't be on the first combo- 1.75 second stun on her ult and 2.5 second slow = more than 4 seconds- and they're probably using their cc on someone else after you've blown all your cooldowns on them.
You can talk about inefficiency all you want (which may true from a gold perspective), but team fights are a time dependent affair. If everyone else dies on your team while you're still alive, the chances of you winning that fight alone are not especially high. IE, sometimes as the initiator having more damage is very useful because erasing people does more for your team than eating tons of damage after the fact.
Gold efficiency is stupid to put on an altar to worship. If you're not accomplishing your ingame objectives, it doesn't freaking matter.
On October 28 2013 11:34 zer0das wrote: Good luck hitting her Q on the intended target? If no one is in the way, I have no idea how you can say a line skill shot is hard to hit. In fact often times people huddle close enough that you hit 2-3 people.
Calling bullshit on your ability to "often times...hit 2-3 people" with Sej Q.
Can someone who plays Sej in plat/diamond please confirm that Sej Q is able to hit 2-3 champions at once on a regular basis? Because I'm just a casual scrub and I don't think I've ever hit 2 champs at once with Sej Q; in my experience you nick a champ with the stupid large-ass hitbox with the champ very slightly out of position, the charge stops and you hit the other guy instead. And I've charged into some very tight groups with Sej Q and have never hit more than one guy. Or I try to escape and surprise! Chogath or Gragas or some giant asshole gets in the way, my escape attempt stops and I QQ
On October 28 2013 11:34 zer0das wrote: I could just as easily say "Annie's w is hard to hit because it is a cone with a short range, have fun hitting the guy you want in a teamfight." Which is completely ignoring the fact you can flash tibbers stun and get a guaranteed w on your target, much like Sejuani but you don't even need to flash with her ult.
Do...do you even play Sej?
Comparing Annie W with Sej Q is absurd. It's infinitely easier to hit multiple champs with Annie W than Sej Q. If it's even possible to hit multiple champs with Sej Q which I'm doubting right now.
Seriously please if it's possible to somehow hit lots of champs with one Sej Q then I really want to know because I'm playing the champ wrong
On October 28 2013 11:34 zer0das wrote: Good luck hitting her Q on the intended target? If no one is in the way, I have no idea how you can say a line skill shot is hard to hit. In fact often times people huddle close enough that you hit 2-3 people. I could just as easily say "Annie's w is hard to hit because it is a cone with a short range, have fun hitting the guy you want in a teamfight." Which is completely ignoring the fact you can flash tibbers stun and get a guaranteed w on your target, much like Sejuani but you don't even need to flash with her ult.
Staying alive for 4 seconds is not super trivial, but its not difficult either, especially if you land an ult on most of their team beforehand. And even if you think it is difficult to stick to an individual target, it shouldn't be on the first combo- 1.75 second stun on her ult and 2.5 second slow = more than 4 seconds- and they're probably using their cc on someone else after you've blown all your cooldowns on them.
You can talk about inefficiency all you want (which may true from a gold perspective), but team fights are time dependent affair. If everyone else dies on your team while you're still alive, the chances of you winning that fight alone are not especially high. IE, sometimes as the initiator having more damage is very useful because erasing people does more for your team than eating tons of damage after the fact.
Gold efficiency is stupid to put on an altar to worship. If you're not accomplishing your ingame objectives, it doesn't freaking matter.
i agree with your principle (of not overvaluing tankiness over damage on initiators), but imho you still get more out of tankiness than AP on sej. Especially the better people are at focusing the right targets in teamfights; if you initiate with AP you will get face-melted. if you initiate with tankiness they wont have an incentive to focus you and if they do you wont die right away.
I think one AP item on Sejuani greatly increases her threat in a teamfight and allows you an easier time chunking squishy target. It's not a terrible choice.
Why wouldn't I build AP items on Amumu? Because I feel Amumu is more prone to getting kited.
My view is that champs that can get damage from tankyness should generally build tanky. The list of champs that can do this is shrinking because it's a very powerful way to build.
I don't think anybody is arguing that you shouldn't go tanky on her. It's more like if you have SotAG + locket + sunfire (+ visage) and don't get bursted down fast you can mix in a blasting wand/haunting guise before continuing to build tanky. Also both her W, E and R have pretty good ratios, considering they are all AoE spells.
Let's put this in perspective here. The standard, currently, on all bruiser or hardier junglers is to build tank unless you're snowballing. Then you can decide to build damage. Tanky AP is just how Sejuani goes about doing it.
This isn't any different than building damage on any other jungler.
On October 28 2013 20:06 Gahlo wrote: Let's put this in perspective here. The standard, currently, on all bruiser or hardier junglers is to build tank unless you're snowballing. Then you can decide to build damage. Tanky AP is just how Sejuani goes about doing it.
This isn't any different than building damage on any other jungler.
Exactly. I was talking about what AP luxury item would be best if you are snowballing hard or maybe if the game drags on long and you get to 6 items.
I think Liandry's Torment is the best ''one offensive item" on her. It builds out of Haunting Guise which is great because u can get it early/mid if ur getting kills and it builds out of ruby crystal so u can buy ruby and if things dont go well just abort the plan to build haunting guise. Besides AP it gives some HP also so its perfect on her.
I have a bit of IP lying around and i really need another jungler i really like (hell, i don't have a jungler i really like tbh). Sej seems like something i'd like and isn't total FOTM with a huge nerf hammer coming to her really soon. What's still relevant about this guide?
On November 28 2013 09:45 Ethelis wrote: I have a bit of IP lying around and i really need another jungler i really like (hell, i don't have a jungler i really like tbh). Sej seems like something i'd like and isn't total FOTM with a huge nerf hammer coming to her really soon. What's still relevant about this guide?
Pretty much everything but the masteries. I'll be updating it with the rune rework.
e: There are a few things I'd like to tweak though.
Rush ancient golem, no boots. Might need 1 mana pot per back before finishing ancient golem.
Ninja Tabi
Then some combination of Sunfire, Randuins, BVeil and Spirit Visage in whatever order.
Or if you get really fed just buy Liandry and Warmogs.
If you get Q at level 2 you can use it right away to jump over the wall in your first buff camp and you'll still have enough mana to get the second buff and a small camp to hit level 3 before going oom.
If I get invaded and know I can't get 2 buffs I've been doing a level 2 gank. You won't kill anybody but your Q-W will scare people and make them flash.
I feel like sejuani is very strong, but i have a feeling that she is somewhat outclassed by amumu. While she has a "ranged mumu ult" and some additional cc, amumu ult is better to catch more people and more reliable at hitting the carries. While her ganks are probably stronger pre 6, amumu feels like he farms faster and deals more damage in the late game. Maybe i havent used the proper runes/masteries/build, but what do you guys think? Why should i pick sejuani over amumu?
On February 25 2014 22:10 Bam Lee wrote: I feel like sejuani is very strong, but i have a feeling that she is somewhat outclassed by amumu. While she has a "ranged mumu ult" and some additional cc, amumu ult is better to catch more people and more reliable at hitting the carries. While her ganks are probably stronger pre 6, amumu feels like he farms faster and deals more damage in the late game. Maybe i havent used the proper runes/masteries/build, but what do you guys think? Why should i pick sejuani over amumu?
I'll redo the damage math later today, but I remember Sejuani out damaging Amumu unless they had a ridiculous amount of health or Amumu had godlike AP. I actually intended to do a "Why should I pick Sejuani over Amumu?" section, but I finished editing the pre-existing sections around 5am. The great thing about Sejuani is that you can copy Amumu's initiation by Qing in and point blanking your ult. Granted, her Q doesn't go as far but the ult still has range and you don't need to hit the skillshot.
On February 25 2014 22:10 Bam Lee wrote: I feel like sejuani is very strong, but i have a feeling that she is somewhat outclassed by amumu. While she has a "ranged mumu ult" and some additional cc, amumu ult is better to catch more people and more reliable at hitting the carries. While her ganks are probably stronger pre 6, amumu feels like he farms faster and deals more damage in the late game. Maybe i havent used the proper runes/masteries/build, but what do you guys think? Why should i pick sejuani over amumu?
I'll redo the damage math later today, but I remember Sejuani out damaging Amumu unless they had a ridiculous amount of health or Amumu had godlike AP. I actually intended to do a "Why should I pick Sejuani over Amumu?" section, but I finished editing the pre-existing sections around 5am. The great thing about Sejuani is that you can copy Amumu's initiation by Qing in and point blanking your ult. Granted, her Q doesn't go as far but the ult still has range and you don't need to hit the skillshot.
I prefer Sej over Amumu any day of the week! Although Amumu's ult is much easier to land and it locks people up for 2 seconds, where as Sej's is only a 1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75 at 6/11/16. Also, attempting to do long range ults with Sej isn't the best because the projectile speed is fairly slow so using escapes away from it is quite easy. Nothing wrong with a 90% slow though, but if you don't at least land it on one or two people I think Amumu is better and he's obviously much more noob friendly.
Also, haven't played against it yet but I figure Yasuo's Windwall completely negates your ult which would be a soft counter to her.
With a full tank build (Golem Banshee Visage Randuin Sunfire)
Sejuani does 1001+12% max HP burst damage, and then 160 damage per second.
Amumu does 805 burst damage, and then 67+2.3% max HP damage per second.
So, Sejuani's burst damage is higher, and her sustained damage is higher against targets with less than 3500 HP.
I don't think there's any argument that Sej is tankier than Amumu, has more CC and a better pre-6. But I think she does more damage with a tank build too.
I had really good record with her before I refunded to buy a rune page bundle. Will get her again next sale or with ip I think. The only problem I ever had with her was I felt the model was big and moved kinda clunky. Been using kha'zix,vi & elise for ez snowball. Is good to have something unusual(21nd least picked) to pull out and have seen sejuani in one game in forever. Can't believe she has less than 50% win rate think I had like 75%+ win rate.
Do you have the nautilus problem? Meaning people always wait at your red and steal or kill you.
Finally can you play her without the bear cavalry skin or is it just impossible? ;-)
On March 03 2014 06:52 oZe wrote: I had really good record with her before I refunded to buy a rune page bundle. Will get her again next sale or with ip I think. The only problem I ever had with her was I felt the model was big and moved kinda clunky. Been using kha'zix,vi & elise for ez snowball. Is good to have something unusual(21nd least picked) to pull out and have seen sejuani in one game in forever. Can't believe she has less than 50% win rate think I had like 75%+ win rate.
Do you have the nautilus problem? Meaning people always wait at your red and steal or kill you.
Finally can you play her without the bear cavalry skin or is it just impossible? ;-)
Well the main problem with her is that you can't solocarry like with Vi or Kha, but you have to feed your team kills and hope they do something with it. Besides that if you fall behind on levels you also can't really catch up because you can't farm all that effectively anymore in that situation.
On March 03 2014 06:52 oZe wrote: I had really good record with her before I refunded to buy a rune page bundle. Will get her again next sale or with ip I think. The only problem I ever had with her was I felt the model was big and moved kinda clunky. Been using kha'zix,vi & elise for ez snowball. Is good to have something unusual(21nd least picked) to pull out and have seen sejuani in one game in forever. Can't believe she has less than 50% win rate think I had like 75%+ win rate.
Do you have the nautilus problem? Meaning people always wait at your red and steal or kill you.
Finally can you play her without the bear cavalry skin or is it just impossible? ;-)
Just have the AD drop their ward behind red, you see most invades coming with that.
So if you get a little fed on Sejuani and want to mix in some damage items when would you do so in your build? After SotAG, after 1 additional tank item, after 2 additional tank items?
With the recent mobi nerf and the free armor she already gets on her passive, Sorc shoes seem like a decent purchase if you get ahead early.
Something like SotAG -> Sorcs -> Sunfire/Banshees -> Guise -> Banshees/Sunfire -> Liandries seems like a good splash of damage if you need a bit more carry potential in your build.
Liandry is her damage item. The thing with Sej is you do damage by building tank items so it's rare for you to want to deviate from tank any farther than Liandry.
On March 04 2014 04:41 YouGotNothin wrote: So if you get a little fed on Sejuani and want to mix in some damage items when would you do so in your build? After SotAG, after 1 additional tank item, after 2 additional tank items?
With the recent mobi nerf and the free armor she already gets on her passive, Sorc shoes seem like a decent purchase if you get ahead early.
Something like SotAG -> Sorcs -> Sunfire/Banshees -> Guise -> Banshees/Sunfire -> Liandries seems like a good splash of damage if you need a bit more carry potential in your build.
This is something I've been unable to figure out. Sej is a strong ganker, but if I wind up getting kills I can't figure out the best way to convert that success into winning teamfights later.
The build you describe seems reasonable; I think it's also reasonable to build Abyssal if there is a lot of AP damage around.
On March 04 2014 04:41 YouGotNothin wrote: So if you get a little fed on Sejuani and want to mix in some damage items when would you do so in your build? After SotAG, after 1 additional tank item, after 2 additional tank items?
With the recent mobi nerf and the free armor she already gets on her passive, Sorc shoes seem like a decent purchase if you get ahead early.
Something like SotAG -> Sorcs -> Sunfire/Banshees -> Guise -> Banshees/Sunfire -> Liandries seems like a good splash of damage if you need a bit more carry potential in your build.
This is something I've been unable to figure out. Sej is a strong ganker, but if I wind up getting kills I can't figure out the best way to convert that success into winning teamfights later.
The build you describe seems reasonable; I think it's also reasonable to build Abyssal if there is a lot of AP damage around.
Your goal is to be as big of a disruptor as possible. Your very presence in a fight should make positioning an pain for your enemy.
On March 04 2014 04:41 YouGotNothin wrote: So if you get a little fed on Sejuani and want to mix in some damage items when would you do so in your build? After SotAG, after 1 additional tank item, after 2 additional tank items?
With the recent mobi nerf and the free armor she already gets on her passive, Sorc shoes seem like a decent purchase if you get ahead early.
Something like SotAG -> Sorcs -> Sunfire/Banshees -> Guise -> Banshees/Sunfire -> Liandries seems like a good splash of damage if you need a bit more carry potential in your build.
This is something I've been unable to figure out. Sej is a strong ganker, but if I wind up getting kills I can't figure out the best way to convert that success into winning teamfights later.
The build you describe seems reasonable; I think it's also reasonable to build Abyssal if there is a lot of AP damage around.
Abyssal doesn't seem that great to me, Sej doesn't benefit hugely from the AP, and it has no HP attached to it for her HP scaling. There really has to be a lot of AP dmg on both teams to justify it I feel.
You do magic damage, you got sunfire & you get abyssal ;-)
Just gave the pig a spin since free to play. Went 9 1 14 with a really shitty team. Mostly because I ran away a lot, damn she is squishy. I feel any half decent jungler would shit all over her until late game. If it even gets there.
Pros seem to use very different runes & masteries. I went 9 21 0 with hybrid reds & AP quints. Some pro went Mpen red&quint and 21 0 9. Went thru potions like the village drunk early game & at the point when regular junglers become self sustaining I still had to drink. Late game she felt strong but more mana issues than most champs.
I ended up with ninja tabi(wanted boots of speed but had cloth and could only afford tabi), golem,sunfire,abyssal,randuins & warmogs. Which felt like a decent build.
She has almost unparallelled utility which is her strongest point. Nobody gets away but almost nobody has to get away In almost all other ways she feels average to weak.
She might be at her strongest in mid elo 5s. Because you want people to be good enough to help if you get invaded but not good enough to counter jungle you into oblivion.
Yeah I just Q over the wall and run like crazy whenever i see enemy ad jungler like lee, xin, kha etc. Also against strong 1v1 junglers at the beginning of the game i always tell my mid that I might get invaded at my red so plz for the love of god help me when i ping (I know this should be basic mid laner knowledge but i do it anyways as some mid laners dont recognize the proper synergy between jungler and mid).
What do you guys feel about support Sej? I saw someone do it and it was quite effective. Tanky, CC, and quite useful in team fights as a tanky support. Anyone have any tips?
I imagine if you get a lead it's pretty strong. Problem is getting there, since you have to be on top of your opponent to do anything pre-6. Might work if your jungler comes early? Otherwise your ADC is probably going to have a rough time.
Have been going 21/9 with Spectral Wraith into Locket and CDR boots and then some AP/tanky stuff. I just try to force good fights with ultimate after lvl 6 and farm inbetween. Have you ever tried going more offensive and what do you think of it?
On August 19 2014 19:20 loSleb wrote: Have been going 21/9 with Spectral Wraith into Locket and CDR boots and then some AP/tanky stuff. I just try to force good fights with ultimate after lvl 6 and farm inbetween. Have you ever tried going more offensive and what do you think of it?
I haven't, but admittedly I haven't played as much Sejuani as I'd like either. Are you're masteries standard AP jungle?
Yeah it's standard, but I haven't played that much games yet myself. It was pretty funny to see Zigg's and Sejuani's Ult blow up 3 people instantly though.
On August 19 2014 20:11 loSleb wrote: Yeah it's standard, but I haven't played that much games yet myself. It was pretty funny to see Zigg's and Sejuani's Ult blow up 3 people instantly though.
So, so far this season I've gotten to Plat 1 playing almost exclusively Sejuani and Lux. I've already played about 80 Sejuani games with a 60.3% winrate atm.
And I've done a lot of practice with the Sejuani build and clear and gotten it down to goddamn rocket science, so I wanted to share it with you guys. Maybe it can be improved upon. This is what I'm doing:
Runes: Armor red / Armor yellow / 3x CDR/level 6x + MR/level blues / AP quints There's a big reason for the armor reds, they can shave a good 10 seconds off your first clear on red side, but I'll explain it when I talk about the clear. The 3 CDR/level blues give 5%, which will get to 40% CDR with the item build. The rest is I think pretty self explanatory.
Masteries:9/21/0 I did some experiments with AD and ASPD masteries in offense and found they don't speed up your level 6 by more than just a couple seconds. I don't feel 2-3 seconds is worth having masteries that are worse in teamfights, since Sejuani won't be ganking pre 6 anyway.
Skills: W>Q>E, then R>W>E>Q. W+Q+E at 3 clears faster than W+Q+W and keeps your HP higher since your masteries reduce damage from slowed targets.
Items: Start with Trailblazer, switch to Stalkers when you start ganking. Core is Stalker+Juggernaut, Ninja Tabi and Sunfire.
After that I either get Frozen Heart + Banshee or Locket + Visage, depending on enemy team comp. Almost always the former, the latter just against a huge AP comp. Sometimes I'll also go FH + Locket, if I think Locket > Banshee against the enemy team, but this wastes CDR so it's not so efficient.
Last item can be just about anything. I've gone Righteous Glory, Liandry, Sightstone, Locket/Banshee, Randuin, Thornmail, one game I even built an Iceborne Gauntlet, although I decided that was kinda bad and haven't done it again. I tried selling Juggernaut for another big tank item one game, and decided that's bad I like Chilling Smite too much.
End game I get elixirs of Ruin, because they give 250 HP.
Jungle Clear: So, I swear to god this is goddamn rocket science. It takes you 3 clears to hit level 6, and this is how I'm doing it now.
1st clear - This is different for blue/red side, but both sides you're going to start Frog. I ward the river bush Frog side at 1:40 and then go to Frog. This ward usually catches the enemy jungler if he comes to try to kill you at Blue at 2. I learned this trick after a couple Shacos and Xins got me.
On blue side, tell your bot lane to do golems if they want to. They're going to be back up by the time you get to them. You're going to go Frog (smite) > Blue > Wolves > Crab (smite). Here's some notes. - You only have to use one potion in this clear. Use the potion as late as possible so you get more HP regen from your Perserverence masteries. It gets real close with the wolves and it looks like they're gonna kill you, but they won't. - The crab takes 25% more damage from everything (even true damage) while knocked up, so Q him first, then smite+W while he's in the air and he'll die almost instantly. This is a little buggy and every once in a while doesn't work and he takes another couple autos to bring down, but it's not a big deal.
On red side, you go Frog (smite) > Blue > Wolves. You're not doing crab, because with a 2 person leash, your Armor reds and good kiting of blue buff to reset a couple autos, you can do these 3 camps without using your potions, and then you don't need to do the crab at all. You'll have to wait like 3 seconds inside the fountain to get Trailblazer but it still speeds up your clear.
After this clear you want to buy Trailblazer and potions.
2nd clear - You're going to do Golems (smite on red side) > Red (smite) > Birds > Wolves > Frog, then base. This clear is pretty uninteresting. You don't need to use any potions in this clear at all, and I wouldn't unless some shit goes down, this saves your potions for your level 6 gank.
After this clear you switch to Stalkers, buy a Ruby Crystal, Boots, and typically 1 more potion, giving you something like 2 HP pots 2 Mana pots for level 6.
3rd clear - Golems > Birds (smite) > Wolves (smite is up here but save it for the gank)
This wolf camp will give you level 6, and you'll be ready to come out of the jungle with ult, Chilling Smite, 4 potions, boots, a ruby crystal, and the bird buff to see a ward.
The fastest I've done this is 6:45 on red side avoiding Crab because armor reds, but closer to 7:00 is more normal I think.
Every once in a while, like once every 20 games or so, the wolf camp just barely doesn't give you 6 and I don't really understand why. I think you almost always leech like 1 minions worth of EXP off mid doing birds and in some games it doesn't happen. I'd love some insight into what's going on here. If it doesn't happen you can either do Frog or sit in a bush and wait for 1 minion to die in the lane you're ganking.
Also, this clear puts you at 6 about 20 seconds before Blue spawns again and close to it, so after your gank you can go secure blue (or dragon if the gank goes super well)
After that it's just normal Sejuani shit. Farm, gank when you have ult, be tanky and CC people, build lots of HP so your damage scales with your tankiness.
Perseverance is so much better than Resistance point for point it's not even a contest.
It's not the most amazing thing in the world early in the game, but it does help your early clears while Resistance does not. Later in the game when you've got 3-4k HP, it gives you huge amounts of regen.
I haven't tried armor quints. The first clear I already only use one or zero potions, and in subsequent clears I don't use any unless it's to top up my HP before a gank, so I think changing quints would just make the clears slower.
I have considered changing 1 quint to CDR/level and using 9 MR/level blues instead of 6 against big AP comps, but not sure I want to devote a rune page to such a small change.
One of my biggest issues I'm having with Sejuani is that if I'm behind against a heavily AP team, there are basically no good itemization options.
Ah crap, forgot to react to your post Ketara. Someone remind me to do it tonight.
I usually run 21/9/0 and a bit more aggro runes. Also I have my doubts about taking crap and the armor reds. But I'll post something more extensive tonight.
On February 18 2015 00:26 Ketara wrote: Perseverance is so much better than Resistance point for point it's not even a contest.
It's not the most amazing thing in the world early in the game, but it does help your early clears while Resistance does not. Later in the game when you've got 3-4k HP, it gives you huge amounts of regen.
I haven't tried armor quints. The first clear I already only use one or zero potions, and in subsequent clears I don't use any unless it's to top up my HP before a gank, so I think changing quints would just make the clears slower.
I have considered changing 1 quint to CDR/level and using 9 MR/level blues instead of 6 against big AP comps, but not sure I want to devote a rune page to such a small change.
One of my biggest issues I'm having with Sejuani is that if I'm behind against a heavily AP team, there are basically no good itemization options.
Even so, if you're at 1k/4k late game, turns into just 20.25 HP over 5 seconds from Perserverence(and not even, considering it ticks every second and adjusts to the smaller missing health pool). I just don't see if being very useful unless you have healing amp from something like Spirit Visage, and even then not very much so. Maybe I'm just not seeing it. Do you have a video example of your initial clear?
The problem with 21/9/0 is that it doesn't really help your clear.
Past 9 points in Offense, the only thing that helps your clear is the 21 pointer, unless you want to go huge into the very early Offense masteries which aren't as efficient point for point later in the game.
For example, going 9/21/0 and a tanky rune page, I can hit level 6 at about 7:00.
Going a reasonable 21/9/0 and changing to ASPD reds and AP blues, I hit level 6 at 6:47, with 2 potions for the gank instead of 4.
If I take a silly Scipaeus Jungle Challenge type 21/9/0 page, I can hit 6 at 6:40, again with 2 potions instead of 4.
13 seconds is a pretty good number, but I don't feel like it's worth having fewer potions for the level 6 gank, and having inferior runes and masteries for the entirety of the rest of the game.
On February 18 2015 00:26 Ketara wrote: Perseverance is so much better than Resistance point for point it's not even a contest.
It's not the most amazing thing in the world early in the game, but it does help your early clears while Resistance does not. Later in the game when you've got 3-4k HP, it gives you huge amounts of regen.
I haven't tried armor quints. The first clear I already only use one or zero potions, and in subsequent clears I don't use any unless it's to top up my HP before a gank, so I think changing quints would just make the clears slower.
I have considered changing 1 quint to CDR/level and using 9 MR/level blues instead of 6 against big AP comps, but not sure I want to devote a rune page to such a small change.
One of my biggest issues I'm having with Sejuani is that if I'm behind against a heavily AP team, there are basically no good itemization options.
Even so, if you're at 1k/4k late game, turns into just 20.25 HP over 5 seconds from Perserverence(and not even, considering it ticks every second and adjusts to the smaller missing health pool). I just don't see if being very useful unless you have healing amp from something like Spirit Visage, and even then not very much so. Maybe I'm just not seeing it. Do you have a video example of your initial clear?
I don't have the ability to record video right now, unfortunately. Next time I have a game where nothing strange happens in the first 7-8 minutes and the replay is on OP.GG I'll link it.
Here's some math for Perserverence vs. Resistance.
Lets say I'm at an 'ideal' full build, which is probably Sunfire + FH + Banshee + Liandry.
These are my stats: 4069 HP 46.2 HP regen 329 Armor (201after expected pen) 140 MR (60 after expected pen)
2 points Perserverence increases HP regen by on average 13.73, or 41.3 EHP vs phys and 21.9 vs. magic.
2 points Resistance increases MR after pen by 2.24, which increases EHP vs. Magic by 91, +1.03 EHP from regen.
So, assuming you're at less than 100% HP for an average of about 20 seconds, 2 points Perserverence equals Resistance in defense to magic damage while also providing defense to physical damage, while also being better for your early clears.
Critically, I'm pretty sure that without Perserverence you can't do my cheesy 0 potion clear, because the wolf camp usually gets within 1 hit of killing you.
The other way to think about it is like, as I'm clearing, I'm losing HP in the jungle, right. Perserverence is doing work for me over that entire stretch, which can be several minutes long leading up to a gank. That HP easily adds up to being more than I'd get from Resistance during the 5-10 seconds that the gank takes place.
Been facing a lot of AD heavy comps as Sej today and it's such an incredibly easy game if you just have to armor stack.
I was play a few games of AP Sej on 5.4 but HP Sej is essentially the way to go with Cinderhulk. You don't have the front end burst of AP Sej but you sit on people longer because you aren't glass cannon (AP/CDR) and W still trucks kids because of its scaling with Cinderhulk.
Machete > Stalkers > Randuin's > Warmog's > Thornmail. Insert Locket before/after Randuin's. I've been contemplating FH over Thorn but frankly Warmog's/Thorn makes the enemy ADC an even bigger non-issue.
AS/Flat HP/5% Flat CDR+MRperLevel/Flat HP 9/21/0
Assuming if you need more "DPS", FH would probably be a better option by giving you slightly faster Ws. Rest of your kit is utility so carries can't run away from your Ws. Route lately has been Frog, Blue, Red, Rocks, base for Stalkers and 3-4 pots.
Edit: Samplesfromtoday. I'd have to say the obv "problem" for Sej is her lack of early game presence. I feel like in all of these games, I managed to prevent our team going into midgame is by counterganking where you think the enemy jungler will be.
One tip: Warmogs sucks balls in every single situation. Get Righteous Glory instead. (Source: Scip.) I've also been building Iceborn Gauntlet a lot, which basically is a snowball harder item since you can just solokill whoever you come across and they can't run away.
Personally I prefer 6 camp clear, then base for stalkers (or something else depending on the game) and green ward + pink ward + pots.
On March 17 2015 06:11 Fildun wrote: One tip: Warmogs sucks balls in every single situation. Get Righteous Glory instead. (Source: Scip.) I've also been building Iceborn Gauntlet a lot, which basically is a snowball harder item since you can just solokill whoever you come across and they can't run away.
Personally I prefer 6 camp clear, then base for stalkers (or something else depending on the game) and green ward + pink ward + pots.
Warmogs is bad unless you're up against a LOT of true damage IMO. I've never built it.
I think FH is better than thornmail most of the time. You can get both, but I will get FH first unless I'm behind vs a fed trynd or yi or something. Wouldn't be hard to mathcraft.
IMO the items you want are cinderhulk, FH, locket and randuin in whatever order. Then last item can be any one of:
Thornmail for armor Banshee for MR Liandry for damage RG for utility/engage.
Warmog is also hurt by the S5 changes that cut off 20% of it's HP in exchange for better regen. This makes it's most valuable aspect, being a fuckton of health to let you deal with physical and magical damage decently in a single slot, weaker. Ontop of that, the buff to RG also puts it at 150hp shy of Warmogs with much greater utility.
Okay buttbags, lets figure this shit out. Conclusions on the next post.
We're going to assume 9/21 masteries (because I said so), and ignore Marks for runes, since really you can run wtfever there and neither Fildun nor I run Mpen.
We're going to assume level 18, and that the existing build is MercTreads Cinderhulk Locket Randuin FH.
We will also assume 1 dragon buff.
And we're going to figure out what's best between Abyssal, Liandry and Iceborne.
There's three things we need to consider. #1 - What's best for offense, #2 - What's best for defense, and #3 - What's best for utility.
What's best for utility is inconsequential, because I will submit that none of them provide consequential utility. Abyssals aura only adds damage, so that's not really utility. Iceborne gives a bunch of mana that's not the worst thing in the world, but not exactly consequential since you already have FH. The same with the CDR, you are already CDR capped so that's inconsequential.
What's left for Iceborne utility is the slow, and if we assume that every time you get a W+auto you also get an E, the Iceborne slow is also doing almost nothing.
So we can say that Iceborne gives more than zero utility and thus wins the utility battle, but the utility that it gives is really inconsequential and we're mostly looking at it for damage and defense. If you wanted a utility item you would have built Righteous Glory.
For Defense, here are our defensive stats after factoring expected enemy pen values and relevant Runes/Masteries. + Show Spoiler +
Starting: HP - 4259.05 + 230 shield Armor - 320.95, 196.1 after pen MR - 172.05, 77.32 after pen
EHP vs Phys - 12611.04 EHP vs Magic - 7959.98
With Abyssal: HP - 4259.05 + 230 shield Armor - 320.95, 196.1 after pen MR - 224.55, 109.4 after pen
EHP vs Phys - 12611.04 EHP vs Magic - 9400.07
With Liandry: HP - 4653.3 + 230 shield Armor - 320.95, 196.1 after pen MR - 172.05, 77.32 after pen
EHP vs Phys - 14459.45 EHP vs Magic - 8659.06
With Iceborne: HP - 4259.05 + 230 shield Armor - 394.45, 241 after pen MR - 172.05, 77.32 after pen
EHP vs Phys - 15307.66 EHP vs Magic - 7959.98
So, here's our conclusions for defense.
Abyssal - EHP vs Phys - 12611.04 EHP vs Magic - 9400.07
Liandry - EHP vs Phys - 14459.45 EHP vs Magic - 8659.06
Iceborne - EHP vs Phys - 15307.66 EHP vs Magic - 7959.98
If you're taking 50% phys 50% magic, Iceborne and Liandry are nearly identical, and both beat Abyssal by about 5%. If you're taking heavily one form of damage, either Abyssal or Iceborne is better depending.
So, next we're gonna do damage. This is, unfortunately, more complicated.
Here are our existing offensive stats: 120.84 AD 39.22 AP 40% CDR
And here is our existing DPS. I'm not gonna bother with burst because honestly tanky Sejuani's burst damage is real low and none of the items are gonna change that much, and I don't want to do that much maths. + Show Spoiler +
Q - 41.77 W - 165.38 + 3% max HP E - 55.44 R - 6.35 Cinderhulk - 51
Total: 319.94 + 3% max HP
And here's how much each item adds, not factoring the mpen (we'll be adding that in a little bit)
Abyssal - Q - 4.49 W - 10.6 + .53% max HP E - 10.30 R - 0.98
Total - 346.31 + 3.53% max HP
Liandry - Q - 3.21 W - 18.6 + 0.41% max HP E - 7.36 R - 0.70 Liandry Burn - 3% current HP (assuming targets are slowed 50% of the fight, which I feel is very conservative. Sejuani slow uptime should be near 100% in fights as long as about 20 seconds if you layer your skills properly.)
Total - 349.81 + 3.41% max HP + 3% current HP.
Iceborne - Q - 1.92 W - 4.54 + .23% max HP E - 4.41 R - 0.42 Iceborne Sheenstuff - 57.94 (assuming 1 per W and 1 per Q)
Total - 389.17 + 3.23% max HP
Here's our totals - Abyssal: 346.31 + 3.53% max HP Liandry: 349.81 + 3.41% max HP + 3% current HP. Iceborne: 389.17 + 3.23% max HP
I'd like to point out that this is actually similar to the DPS of a 6 damage item Lux. 6 item Sejuani does a fuckton of damage even building full tank.
Anyway, now we have to factor pen. I'm actually going to pretend that the Iceborne damage is magic damage (it's not) just to make the math easier, but this is going to favor Iceborne because people usually have more Armor than MR, and even with that benefit Iceborne is going to end up in last place, so this is okay.
We're going to look at these numbers vs. typical expected end game squishy target MR values. + Show Spoiler +
63.6 MR (full damage APC or AD Assassin) Abyssal: 241.16 + 2.45% max HP Liandry: 235.40 + 2.29% max HP + 2.01% current HP. Iceborne: 237.87 + 1.97% max HP
92 MR (ADC with MR runes, QSS and a Locket aura) Abyssal: 201.34 + 2.05% max HP Liandry: 197.63 + 1.92% max HP + 1.69% current HP. Iceborne: 202.69 + 1.68% max HP
121.35 (APC with Banshee) Abyssal: 171.99 + 1.75% max HP Liandry: 169.52 + 1.65% max HP + 1.45% current HP. Iceborne: 175.81 + 1.45% max HP
SO, here are our Offense results.
Liandry does the most damage when we're looking at Sejuani's damage. Abyssal is #2, Iceborne is #3.
However, Liandry's damage is only like 1% or 2% over Abyssals. It depends on how much the current HP damage is from the Liandry burn, which is hard to calculate. I'd be willing to bet that unless your team is all AD, the Abyssal aura is increasing your teams damage by enough to outpace Liandry.
Don't buy Iceborne it's bad. If you want a damage item against an all AD team, lets be real just get a Thornmail it's way better. I guess if you're literally against zero magic damage you could replace Locket with Iceborne, that makes sense. But if you lose a game on Sejuani against 5 AD I think I need to take away your Sejuani license anyway.
Buy Liandry for damage when one of the following is true: A - Your team already has an Abyssal. B - The rest of your team is all AD.
Otherwise, buy Abyssal.
So, Fildun was right (half right). THE EURO WINS AGAIN.
But yeah the math looks good, except I disagree with your build and runes/masteries, but I think that's a discussion we've had 20 times already so lets just leave that be.
What I mean is that the difference between 70 AP, 50 AP + burn, and 30 AP + sheen, is not going to be very big for burst.
It's probably similar to the DPS numbers. Abyssal is probably slightly ahead, Liandry is ahead if the team already has an Abyssal aura, and Iceborne last place all the time.
Played three more games last night after our talks and 21/9 feels better. In first jungle run, I finish clearing the same camps as I did with 9/21 and I ended up with considerably more hp. I didn't check the times but I feel like it was slightly faster too.
Didn't get too many games where I could go zoom zoom with RG but the theory and mathcraft behind it is sound that I'm going to drop Warmog's going forward. hotkey 1 slow (Randuin) 2 shield (Locket) 3 zoom zoom (RG) With Cinderhulk and boots, that leaves one last slot, probably either FH or Abyssal it seems.
Against full AD team, I suppose I'd drop Locket for a FH and Liandry's for 6th. Against full AP, Abyssal after Locket and Banshee's for 6th.
I guess this is my current train of thought for piglady.
21/9 is slightly faster. You hit 6 about 15 seconds faster, in my experience. You hit 3 and 4 quite a bit faster.
But IMO, you're not going to gank before 6, and 9/21 has much better stats for actual fights, better enough that I feel like it's worth 15 seconds.
I'll do some clears and put some numbers down, I guess.
The thing is after your first clear, such a huge percentage of your clearing is just all coming from W, which doesn't really scale with offensive stats, that once you're level 6 and actually fighting enemy champions offensive masteries aren't helping very much.
Really what it comes down to is do you want a better early game (21/9) or a better late game (9/21)
I'm not really sure 9/21 is all that better late game. -3% damage from slowed enemies, +Armor/MR per nearby champion, -10% damage from crits, Perseverance, and tenacity does not appear that much obviously better than Dangerous Game + 6% penetration + 3% increased damage. Certainly in 2v2's in the early-/mid-game I'd rather have 21/9.
I'm open to being persuaded the other way, but I also much prefer 21/9/0 with a full tank build.
Penetration shouldn't really matter late game because while you do a decent amount of damage for a tank, you probably aren't dealing significant enough damage for that to be worth it. Nobody outside of Mundo should be taking perseverance, that shit is garbage. %DR and Crit damage reduction is pretty much imperative for a tank late. Literally the only thing I miss while going 9/21 instead of 21/9 come late game is Dangerous Game, but at that point I'd rather be 14/16 instead of 21/9 for it.
I honestly feel it's more of a playstyle decision.
On March 18 2015 03:08 Gahlo wrote: Penetration shouldn't really matter late game because while you do a decent amount of damage for a tank, you probably aren't dealing significant enough damage for that to be worth it. Nobody outside of Mundo should be taking perseverance, that shit is garbage. %DR and Crit damage reduction is pretty much imperative for a tank late. Literally the only thing I miss while going 9/21 instead of 21/9 come late game is Dangerous Game, but at that point I'd rather be 14/16 instead of 21/9 for it.
I honestly feel it's more of a playstyle decision.
Hmm, looking at a 16/14 spread, it seems to make a lot of sense. I really don't care for Havoc (l0l look at what I'm building) or Tenacious (l0l plz CC me instead of my carries).
On March 18 2015 03:08 Gahlo wrote: Penetration shouldn't really matter late game because while you do a decent amount of damage for a tank, you probably aren't dealing significant enough damage for that to be worth it. Nobody outside of Mundo should be taking perseverance, that shit is garbage. %DR and Crit damage reduction is pretty much imperative for a tank late. Literally the only thing I miss while going 9/21 instead of 21/9 come late game is Dangerous Game, but at that point I'd rather be 14/16 instead of 21/9 for it.
I honestly feel it's more of a playstyle decision.
Hmm, looking at a 16/14 spread, it seems to make a lot of sense. I really don't care for Havoc (l0l look at what I'm building) or Tenacious (l0l plz CC me instead of my carries).
Block and unyielding lose a lot of value on a jungler. You're better off getting 2 in Enchanted Armor, since you're going to be building a decent amount of resists anyway, Bladed Armor.
This is the difference between my mastery page and Wheelkings mastery page.
9/21 +5 armor +4 per nearby enemy champion +2 MR per nearby enemy champion -3% damage from slowed enemies 0.675% missing HP regen 10% reduced crit damage 15% tenacity
21/9 4 + 0.55 per level AD +2 damage to minions/monsters +6% pen +5% damage to champs under 50% +3% damage
So, I want to look at 3 things.
#1 - Clear speed.
#2 - How tanky you are with each page.
#3 - How much damage you do with each page.
Clear speed is the easiest, I'm gonna record how fast I hit 6 with each page, doing the same clear and same runes/items. I'll also record my HP/mana at the end of the clear.
9/21: 6:41, 875 HP 246 mana 21/9: 6:36, 850 HP 270 mana
So, as we can see, it's pretty similar. I'm willing to bet the HP/Mana differences are inconsequential and just based on how efficient I was.
The reason why the first clear is faster, but the level 6 is so similar, is because in the second and third clears you have to stand and wait at most of the camps for the respawns. This means the faster you're killing the camps, the more time you have to wait, so while 21/9 finishes the first clear faster, the difference between the first clears is larger than the difference between the first three clears.
Since you're not going to gank at the end of your first clear, you don't actually care about the timing. The reason why we worry about the clear timings is because we're worried about when our gank timing is. So it's this level 6 timing that we should be concerned with.
Post level 6 when you've got 4+ points in W, you melt camps no matter what's going on. So aside from getting to 6 5-10 seconds faster, the difference in the mastery pages actually doesn't significantly affect your clear speed.
To further illustrate that there's not much of a difference in clear speed, this is the average jungle stats for Wheelking and I from bluebaron.net. We're both D5 Sejuani jungle mains atm.
Wheelking EXP per minute: 335.1 Gold per minute: 279.78
Ketara EXP per minute: 342.59 Gold per minute: 262.53
So, they're pretty similar. Wheelking is getting slightly more gold, and I'm getting slightly more EXP. Probably playstyle differences and not build differences, he probably ganks more and I probably farm more. That's not just different masteries either, that's him running AD reds and trailblazer and me running Armor reds and stalkers. You'd think that with runes, masteries and items in favor of clear speed for him, I wouldn't be getting higher EXP per minute.
I am actually getting tired of this post, so I'll do damage and tankiness later ha!
Tried a few more games with 16/14 and it felt the best so far. Cost efficiency aside, RG active is so nice on Sej to chase people down with Q or R. I think I managed to 3QR for a max range ulti one game and the stun was long enough for me to get into Smite range then WE for the slow/kill.
I think with her build more or less set, I just need to get more proficient at not overlapping all her slows (W E Smite). Also managed to finish 6 items by 32 minutes in one of these games, which is unheard of for me with my other junglers.
Was a fun discussion with everyone. I'll probably move on to Zac in a few days as a secondary Cinderhulk user (per aura's suggestion). Maybe see of you there. o/
For teamfight damage, we can assume that Sejuani doesn't actually auto very much or very quickly, so bonus AD is having a negligable effect.
If I grab some of the numbers from the earlier post, we can see how much the pen and Havoc etc are increasing our DPS.
346.31 + 3.53% max HP going 9/21 with Abyssal. I'll pick our 92 MR example.
After Havoc and Executioner: 365.61 + 3.72% max HP.
After mpen:
21/9 219.61 + 2.23% max HP. 9/21 201.34 + 2.05% max HP
So it's roughly 9% more damage.
Next we've got to look at the tankiness. I already have the EHP values from the earlier math too hah! Yay for me! This is for 9/21. EHP vs Phys - 12611.04 EHP vs Magic - 9400.07
So, for 21/9, we've got 26.25 less armor and 10.5 less MR. EHP vs Phys - 11433 EHP vs Magic - 9059
So, you're about 10% tankier vs phys, and 4% tankier vs magic. If you're taking 50% phys/magic damage, you're about 7% tankier.
But that's not the whole picture, because we have to assume 3% less damage against slowed targets, and 10% less crit damage. If you're getting FH, everything is movement impaired all of the time, since the FH aura counts for that. Even when you don't have FH, lets be real you're Sejuani, shit is slowed all of the time.
Our resistances are: Armor - 320.95, 196.1 after pen MR - 224.55, 109.4 after pen
So we take 33.77% phys damage, and 47.75% magic damage. After Oppression, it's 32.75 and 46.31. So Oppression makes you about 1.23% tankier against 50/50 phys/magic damage. Now we're at 8.23%.
Next, how good is crit reduction? It's complicated, because it depends on how many people on their team buy crit and how much crit they have.
But lets assume that one third of the enemy teams damage late game is coming from the ADC, and that ADC has IE+Shiv for 45% crit at 250% crit damage. So 45% of the ADCs attacks are crits, and each crit is doing 2.5x damage, right.
So if the ADC does 100 attacks at 100 damage each, he's doing 6500 attack damage and 11250 crit damage. 17750 total. So about 63.4% of his damage is crits.
Lets also say 25% of the ADCs late game damage is from skills (again, depends on the ADC, this is just an example)
So ultimately about 15.5% of the enemy teams damage is coming from crits, which means that 10% less crit damage is reducing the enemy teams total damage by about 1.5%. This is again just an example, crit reduction is going to have different values in different games. But what I'm trying to show is that it's at least about as good as Oppression, and potentially a lot better.
So, if it's about as good as Oppression, we're now at 9.46%.
So, ultimately, 21/9 does about 9% more damage, and 9/21 makes you 9.46% tankier.
The thing is though, 9/21 also gives you Tenacity and HP Regen, while 21/9 is pretty much only adding damage and not really doing anything else. Also, since you're often going to be focused in fights (if you're doing it right), and most of your damage is sustained, surviving 9% longer means you'll do more damage and have more impact on the fight through CC. Based on surviving longer, I'd say that the difference in damage for 21/9 is actually some amount less than 9%.
It's a matter of preference, but IMO as far as teamfights are concerned, 9/21 is going to outperform 21/9.
The caveat here is that all these numbers are for a 5v5. They aren't for things like early/mid game 2v1's or 2v2's, where I think 21/9 will probably shine, since those situations are usually about killing people before they can get back to their tower.
So basically, these are my conclusions.
21/9 clear speed is slightly faster, but arguably negligable.
9/21 is better in 5v5 teamfights.
21/9 is better in small gank situations like 2v1 etc.
Link! Actually, now that I look at that, Dangerous Game is probably better than Expose Weakness, but anyways.
I'm not gonna go too far into the details on that one, I'm sure its fine. But here's a comparison of what each of these pages has, ignoring the things that all three have or can have:
9/21 +5 armor +4 per nearby enemy champion +2 MR per nearby enemy champion -3% damage from slowed enemies 0.675% missing HP regen 10% reduced crit damage 15% tenacity
21/9 4 + 0.55 per level AD +2 damage to minions/monsters +6% pen +5% damage to champs under 50% +3% damage
16/14 +5 Armor 10% crit reduction -3% damage from slowed enemies 4 + 0.55 per level AD +5% damage to champs under 50%
For 16/14 vs. 9/21, you're losing Legendary Guardian and Tenacity, and gaining AD and Executioner.
For 16/14 vs. 21/9, you're gaining 5 Armor, Oppression and Crit Reduction, and losing penetration and 3% damage.
It's not as though one is strictly better than the other, it's just pretty 50/50. And Neo is right in that Tenacity is not a super desirable 21 pointer on Sejuani. It's not bad, you get it when you're already up there, but we're not really going to 21 Defense for Tenacity, we're doing it for Legendary Guardian.
Ideally I'd like to be able to have Dangerous Game, Oppression, Juggernaut, Reinforced Armor, and Evasive. Unfortunately you can't actually take all of them. So assuming you drop Evasive, that leaves you with 13/14/0 plus 3 more mastery points. That actually makes me think that 13/14/3 might work, because there isn't a super point-efficient way to spend your next 3 points in offense or defense, whereas Enhanced Recall and Scout are both pretty reasonable 1-point wonders.
That's because you think 2 points Perserverence 1 point Legendary Guardian isn't efficient, which is nooooooot truuuuuuuuuuuue at aaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.
I'm dubious about Perseverance. If I'm walking around mid game with half-health at 2k HP, I'm regaining 3.5 HP / 6.75 HP / 10 HP every five seconds.
I guess I prefer "big swing" masteries. Dangerous Game is the canonical example of a "big swing" mastery, and I think Enhanced Recall/Scout are similar. Perseverance means maybe lasting half a second longer in a teamfight, but that usually doesn't change the outcome of the fight either way.
HMM, how can I convince people about Perserverence.
Okay, remember before when I did clears, this is what my 9/21 level 6 looked like:
9/21: 6:41, 875 HP
Lemme do the exact same thing, but remove the 2 points in Perserverence and see what I get.
9/21: 6:43, 750 HP
See the difference?
I actually took extra damage from krugs by accident that clear, so it's really probably only like a 50 HP difference.
But 50 HP for 2 mastery points is a lot.
Basically, unlike in top lane, as a jungler you're sub 100% HP essentially all of the time, because you're taking damage as you're clearing. So you're getting a lot of value out of Perserverence that can be kinda hard to see. I don't think it's the best thing in the defense tree, but it's certainly worth the points.
I'm thinking about moving RG up in the priority. Being able to take advantage of health boosting early and the extra engage is invaluable when teams decide to just back out of your zone of presence.
It's true that Perseverance is almost "always on" as a jungler, but it's also true that a lot of it is completely wasted every time I recall.
Doing more damage is more useful than absorbing more damage in situations where you're racing to finish a baron/dragon/tower/crab/counterjungle expedition.
Basically if you imagine your champion on the damage <-> tankiness scale, I see masteries as a "cheap" way to slightly finetune my build towards damage, whereas items move the dial in significant and expensive chunks at a time. To get damage through items on Sejuani, I'd have to spend a minimum of 1485 gold, but to get damage through masteries is much cheaper.
If you leave the base at less than 100% HP, that regained HP still matters. If you leave the base at 100% HP, it's saving you time. If you sit around at 100% HP in the fountain, you're being inefficient.
You cannot seriously be arguing that Perseverance has value because it helps you get out of fountain 0.25 seconds faster. By that logic not taking Enhanced Recall is basically a reportable offense.
I think we need a separate Masteries thread where we can debate proper ways to allocate points generally.
Sure it's value. It's not much value but it's not nothing.
I'm not trying to argue that Perserverence is a super strong mastery, I'm arguing that it's better than being able to place wards farther like you suggested, which nobody takes ever because it's completely fucking useless.
I'd much MUCH rather have 5 Armor, 2.5 MR, and 0.675% missing HP regen than 0.5% movespeed, improved recall and ward distance, or 1.5% movespeed.
Hell, I'd rather have 5 Armor and 2.5 MR than 1.5% movespeed in general, the Perserverence points are just bonus.
So being able to reliably place scarra wards with your mini-sightstone is "completely fucking useless", but never underestimate the power of regaining 0.1-0.4 HP per second at level 1, because that saves you up to 0.005 seconds in fountain?
I agree that Legendary Guardian is super good on Sejuani. But I am less enthusiastic about it if you are also set on Dangerous Game.
Gromp(S)/Blue/Red(S)/Krugs, top of map. You have to kite properly and Q when Blue/Red wind up their attack animation to minimize the damage you take. You can Krugs but I usually end with under 100 hp, so careful. Krugs(S)/Red/Gromp(S)/Blue/possibly Wolves/Raptors, bottom of map. Length of first run is entirely dependent on the kind of leash you get. Worst case scenario, you can finish three camps easy, then do Skuttle if you're too low to do a fourth. Normally I don't bother with Skuttle on first run as Sej. (S) for when I Smite.
You should always start gromp > blue regardless of what side you're on.
I'm surprised you guys aren't doing 6 camp clears, too. If you're under 100 HP after 4 camps neo you're not clearing properly, you should post a video. You can do 6 as either 21/9 or 9/21.
I tried out zac yesterday when sej was banned, I like him.
I start on the top side of the jungle so my bot lane can get an early level 2. I also don't value the 6 camp clear because I prefer to pick up the +15g from the smite upgrade faster.
I value the extra EXP over the extra gold and do Gromp->Blue->Wolf->Wraith->Red->Krugs->Crab. However, I take 4/12/14 runes for 3 biscuits, so I have 75% health for a level 4 gank with Q, E, and red buff. In my personal experience, a lot of laners don't ward for that gank timing from Sejuani, though this may have changed as she's been played more recently (I haven't had a chance to play in the last couple of weeks).
On March 20 2015 01:35 MidnightGladius wrote: I value the extra EXP over the extra gold and do Gromp->Blue->Wolf->Wraith->Red->Krugs->Crab. However, I take 4/12/14 runes for 3 biscuits, so I have 75% health for a level 4 gank with Q, E, and red buff. In my personal experience, a lot of laners don't ward for that gank timing from Sejuani, though this may have changed as she's been played more recently (I haven't had a chance to play in the last couple of weeks).
I don't think you actually gain more camps though. By the time you back, I'll already be out there on the camps again. Meanwhile, I'll be able to spend more time with the bonus gold, stronger version of the Jungler passive, and Blasting Smite.
My reasoning is that you want to kill every camp ASAP to start its respawn timer, because the camps stay at level 1 until they've respawned once, and that reduces the amount of EXP you get from them. You're certainly right about the bonus gold/machete upgrade, but I'm not sure where the exact break-point is, and I'm personally more comfortable with the timings of 6 camps, crab, gank, back. I'm only Plat 3, so this could just be an artifact of low-level play, but I feel like backing after 3 or 4 camps closes the door on a lot of potential early plays, especially if their laners expect me to be back/buying at that time.
On March 20 2015 04:55 Ketara wrote: You have more gold at level 6 if you do a full clear.
If you do a partial clear you have Stalkers + Ruby + Boots + Pots at 6, if you do a full clear you can also have a pink ward.
How could that possibly be true? It still requires the same amount of camps and doing a full clear leaves you 15g behind for each camp you take after you could have backed for Smite upgrade.
On March 20 2015 05:05 Fildun wrote: Do none of you buy wards on first pick or something? Like, how do you have money for wards when you do Gahlo's clear?
Buy going smite Upgrade, 1pot, Green. People keep ignoring the Crab.
e. Just had a friend spectate me. Hit level 6 at 5:57 with a total worth of 2270. This is also taking into account that I accidentally canceled my second back by fucking up the CtrlW on my level 4. Judging by your 21/9 time on the last page, I'm 40 seconds faster even with the penalty of the recall fuckup. Even if I sit still and do nothing, I gain 76 gold in that time from ambient gold(19g/10s).
If the primary concern is with the first full clear, how about trading off between flat runes with 9/21/0 masteries and scaling runes with 4/12/14 masteries (wealth and biscuits enabling a full clear)? I've been playing with flat runes (AD/ARM/sCDR/ARM) with 4/12/14, which frees up my laners to not leash or to take a camp, and also gives me a lot more safety against an early invade. I especially like having enough health to stay on the map after a full clear at level 6 and punish an unsuspecting over-extended opponent.
I acknowledge that I'm reducing my clear speed and losing out on some tank stats from masteries, but I buy biscuits throughout the game and try to stay out on the map longer, which usually results in a level/item advantage and more opportunities for ganks and cross-map objective responses. After level 11 and 2 items (almost always Cinderhulk -> Locket), Sejuani's teamfighting can start taking over the game, and it seems that scaling runes might be preferable under those circumstances.
On March 22 2015 05:12 Ketara wrote: So, I think when the next patch hits and the HP regen from Machete gets buffed, I'm going to try going Armor reds and HP/level yellows.
My theorycrafting thinks this'll be prettigud.
Yeah, armor reds are sneakily stupid good after the seal nerf.
While not specifically relating to Sejuani per se, now that a lot more people are first picking her, I've been pairing it with support Zyra. Not only are tank junglers less likely to successfully gank a pushed bottom lane, but chaining Sej ult -> Zyra ult is both easy to execute and back-breaking for the opposing team.
Does anyone have any comments about utility masteries with scaling runes, or is it such a bad idea that it doesn't merit a response? :3
On March 22 2015 15:05 MidnightGladius wrote: While not specifically relating to Sejuani per se, now that a lot more people are first picking her, I've been pairing it with support Zyra. Not only are tank junglers less likely to successfully gank a pushed bottom lane, but chaining Sej ult -> Zyra ult is both easy to execute and back-breaking for the opposing team.
Does anyone have any comments about utility masteries with scaling runes, or is it such a bad idea that it doesn't merit a response? :3
I personally dislike utility masteries because you give up a decent amount for a minimal bonus, especially when you do my clear. I've yet to test out the runes though.
VS almost full AP comps I do think that running health yellows is viable. Also, vs all AD teams I really like to build Iceborn Gauntlet. Other than that, looks good! Maybe add slowing smite as well, since more slows is always better and your E slow doesn't last forever. Ofcourse it's all situational, but leaving it out does feel a bit odd.
If you have multiple rune pages for Sej, ye. I'd go FH+Randuin's vs full AD comp. Both are better than IBG I find. I go Stalker's on just about everyone except Nunu. It's a matter of play style.
On April 29 2015 02:40 Fildun wrote: VS almost full AP comps I do think that running health yellows is viable. Also, vs all AD teams I really like to build Iceborn Gauntlet. Other than that, looks good! Maybe add slowing smite as well, since more slows is always better and your E slow doesn't last forever. Ofcourse it's all situational, but leaving it out does feel a bit odd.
Due to how the map is set up and there always being an ADC, I've always made armor seals + 1 Armor item kind of my bare bones armor allotment. I'll check it out later tonight.
Would it be terrible to run Hybrid Penetration marks and Attack Speed quints?
I find your mastery choices confusing. I've never seen people pass up Martial Mastery and Arcane Mastery after putting 3 points into Brute Force/Mental Force. 1 point for 4AD or 6AP is pretty significant, especially compared to 3 points for 10AD or 16AP at level 18.
TBH, I don't like putting points into either of the scaling masteries. They're largely "get there" points for me. I'm most likely overrating Feast due to how good it is elsewhere in the game.
Yeah, so what you're doing is literally the exact opposite: you put points into the scaling masteries and then don't put it into the non-scaling one-point-wonder. Put another way you're valuing 5AP at level 18 and 3AD at level 18 more than 6AP at level 1 and 4AD at level 1. It makes no sense. I think you might just have it backwards.
Here's what I assume your 21/9 Sejuani page should be:
Takes a 1 point mastery that adds 2 damage to your autos against minions/monsters only.
Instead of a 1 point mastery that adds 4 damage to all of your autos.
Love, Ketara
BY THE WAY.
I've noticed a Sejuani bug that affects your clear speed.
When you cast W.
If you move between the on-hit damage and the first tick of the over time AOE damage, your next autoattack will be delayed until after the tick damage starts.
Want to share the runes i've used on sejuani, shamelessly copyed from meteos as reds, hp/lvl yellows, cdr blues, armor quints first clear suck, everything after is beastly
So Righteous Glory + Randuin is super fun, you ult, run in and basically fart on them and the enemy team is CC'd for like 4 seconds and you've already almost killed all their squishies.
I think trying to work in some CDR blues would be nice honestly, I've been having trouble finding CDR in my build. Usually doing cinderhulk -> boot -> RG -> randuin + banshee -> thornmail/ abyssal.
I just feel like taking FH over Randuin's is very suboptimal when you are a cinderhulk jungler, feels very hard to justify. If I take RG already, I don't need Glacial->FH for mana, so taking FH ends up being almost solely for CDR.
I think there was an argument about how locket wasn't that great of a buy either... I guess it'd be okay in situations where you don't have a top or support with it, but it's a lot of gold for less stats for yourself. The feeling of R then 1 RG 2 Randuin 3 Locket is pretty fun though. Triple actives ftw.
In the current meta your toplaner almost never gets Locket and your support would get it very late, so yeah I do think locket is almost always a good buy, especially because it gives CDR and you really don't need the banshees shield as a tank. I also don't really see the appeal of FH myself, except vs full AD teams.
On May 05 2015 00:32 ticklishmusic wrote: I just feel like taking FH over Randuin's is very suboptimal when you are a cinderhulk jungler, feels very hard to justify. If I take RG already, I don't need Glacial->FH for mana, so taking FH ends up being almost solely for CDR.
I think there was an argument about how locket wasn't that great of a buy either... I guess it'd be okay in situations where you don't have a top or support with it, but it's a lot of gold for less stats for yourself. The feeling of R then 1 RG 2 Randuin 3 Locket is pretty fun though. Triple actives ftw.
The discussion about Locket being meh was about a year and a half ago. A lot has changed since then.
I'm still not the biggest fan of locket on Sejuani... it has some utility for your team, but I feel like having Banshee's is overall better for teamfighting since it prevents the enemy from CC'ing you and getting into their faces. Plus it gives a little more hp/ MR.
On May 05 2015 04:32 ticklishmusic wrote: I'm still not the biggest fan of locket on Sejuani... it has some utility for your team, but I feel like having Banshee's is overall better for teamfighting since it prevents the enemy from CC'ing you and getting into their faces. Plus it gives a little more hp/ MR.
The holder is only down 50HP and 15MR. Even if we take out the scaling per level, the base shield from locket along makes up for the HP loss. Even if we ignore the health regen on the aura, since it isn't a "combat stat", each aura'd ally gains 400g worth of MR and 134-614g of "health" from the shield upon activation.
Surely that is more valuable in a team fighting scenario than a more selfish item to try and block cc, which will most likely be aimed elsewhere, that can be negated easily by random poke.
Locket is the most cost efficient item in the game.
Tank junglers love cost efficiency.
As to RG + Randuin/FH, if you are getting RG your armor item should probably be thornmail.
I prefer FH on Sej, so I don't get RG at all. Its an awesome item, but I don't think sej needs help engaging.
I'd much rather get Locket+FH and let Top get RG if they need it. If you think about it, top is more likely to 1v1 and sej is more likely to not fight unless grouped, so sej gets the aura items which let's top go banshee/RG/Thornmail to 1v1.
On May 05 2015 04:32 ticklishmusic wrote: I'm still not the biggest fan of locket on Sejuani... it has some utility for your team, but I feel like having Banshee's is overall better for teamfighting since it prevents the enemy from CC'ing you and getting into their faces. Plus it gives a little more hp/ MR.
The holder is only down 50HP and 15MR. Even if we take out the scaling per level, the base shield from locket along makes up for the HP loss. Even if we ignore the health regen on the aura, since it isn't a "combat stat", each aura'd ally gains 400g worth of MR and 134-614g of "health" from the shield upon activation.
Surely that is more valuable in a team fighting scenario than a more selfish item to try and block cc, which will most likely be aimed elsewhere, that can be negated easily by random poke.
I play Sejuani mostly as an initiator, so if I get a good R off, I Q in while they are frozen and sit on them with W/cinderhulk damage. Blocking the CC (from their non frozen support or whatever) so you can do that seems pretty valuable to me. If you can get in their faces and make them scatter like bowling pins, I think that's worth more than a 200hp shield for a couple of your team members.
Though I guess Locket would be nice if you're behind. But you should never be behind as Sejuani.
On May 05 2015 00:32 ticklishmusic wrote: I just feel like taking FH over Randuin's is very suboptimal when you are a cinderhulk jungler, feels very hard to justify. If I take RG already, I don't need Glacial->FH for mana, so taking FH ends up being almost solely for CDR.
I think there was an argument about how locket wasn't that great of a buy either... I guess it'd be okay in situations where you don't have a top or support with it, but it's a lot of gold for less stats for yourself. The feeling of R then 1 RG 2 Randuin 3 Locket is pretty fun though. Triple actives ftw.
Well, there's the theory that if you're getting bonus health, you should be valuing resistances over more health. Kind of like how the best Rammus build isn't just 6 armor items, but instead a mixture with an extra emphasis on flat health.
On May 05 2015 05:37 Ketara wrote: Locket is the most cost efficient item in the game.
Tank junglers love cost efficiency.
As to RG + Randuin/FH, if you are getting RG your armor item should probably be thornmail.
I prefer FH on Sej, so I don't get RG at all. Its an awesome item, but I don't think sej needs help engaging.
I'd much rather get Locket+FH and let Top get RG if they need it. If you think about it, top is more likely to 1v1 and sej is more likely to not fight unless grouped, so sej gets the aura items which let's top go banshee/RG/Thornmail to 1v1.
Do you still get Face after Lock/FH? If so, do you overcap CDR or just not bring any from runes and masteries?
EPT![[image loading]](http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130501082246/leagueoflegends/images/thumb/c/cb/Sejuani_OriginalSkin.jpg/640px-Sejuani_OriginalSkin.jpg)
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: It's smite. You're jungling. You take it.![[image loading]](http://snag.gy/XrDFi.jpg)
: Standard get out of jail free card/playmaker button.![[image loading]](http://snag.gy/Z1RpM.jpg)
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In almost all other ways she feels average to weak. 
