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On February 18 2015 01:03 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2015 00:26 Ketara wrote:
Perseverance is so much better than Resistance point for point it's not even a contest.
It's not the most amazing thing in the world early in the game, but it does help your early clears while Resistance does not. Later in the game when you've got 3-4k HP, it gives you huge amounts of regen.
I haven't tried armor quints. The first clear I already only use one or zero potions, and in subsequent clears I don't use any unless it's to top up my HP before a gank, so I think changing quints would just make the clears slower.
I have considered changing 1 quint to CDR/level and using 9 MR/level blues instead of 6 against big AP comps, but not sure I want to devote a rune page to such a small change.
One of my biggest issues I'm having with Sejuani is that if I'm behind against a heavily AP team, there are basically no good itemization options. Even so, if you're at 1k/4k late game, turns into just 20.25 HP over 5 seconds from Perserverence(and not even, considering it ticks every second and adjusts to the smaller missing health pool). I just don't see if being very useful unless you have healing amp from something like Spirit Visage, and even then not very much so. Maybe I'm just not seeing it. Do you have a video example of your initial clear?
I don't have the ability to record video right now, unfortunately. Next time I have a game where nothing strange happens in the first 7-8 minutes and the replay is on OP.GG I'll link it.
Here's some math for Perserverence vs. Resistance.
Lets say I'm at an 'ideal' full build, which is probably Sunfire + FH + Banshee + Liandry.
These are my stats:
4069 HP
46.2 HP regen
329 Armor (201after expected pen)
140 MR (60 after expected pen)
2 points Perserverence increases HP regen by on average 13.73, or 41.3 EHP vs phys and 21.9 vs. magic.
2 points Resistance increases MR after pen by 2.24, which increases EHP vs. Magic by 91, +1.03 EHP from regen.
So, assuming you're at less than 100% HP for an average of about 20 seconds, 2 points Perserverence equals Resistance in defense to magic damage while also providing defense to physical damage, while also being better for your early clears.
Critically, I'm pretty sure that without Perserverence you can't do my cheesy 0 potion clear, because the wolf camp usually gets within 1 hit of killing you.
The other way to think about it is like, as I'm clearing, I'm losing HP in the jungle, right. Perserverence is doing work for me over that entire stretch, which can be several minutes long leading up to a gank. That HP easily adds up to being more than I'd get from Resistance during the 5-10 seconds that the gank takes place.
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How are you doing on ironing out a new staple build, Ket? Just shifting everything up? Moving to tanky AP?
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I'm doing all the same stuff but instead of Juggernaut > Sunfire > Locket / FH it's Cinderhulk > Locket / Randuin > FH now.
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United States37500 Posts
Been facing a lot of AD heavy comps as Sej today and it's such an incredibly easy game if you just have to armor stack.
I was play a few games of AP Sej on 5.4 but HP Sej is essentially the way to go with Cinderhulk. You don't have the front end burst of AP Sej but you sit on people longer because you aren't glass cannon (AP/CDR) and W still trucks kids because of its scaling with Cinderhulk.
Machete > Stalkers > Randuin's > Warmog's > Thornmail. Insert Locket before/after Randuin's. I've been contemplating FH over Thorn but frankly Warmog's/Thorn makes the enemy ADC an even bigger non-issue.
AS/Flat HP/5% Flat CDR+MRperLevel/Flat HP
9/21/0
Assuming if you need more "DPS", FH would probably be a better option by giving you slightly faster Ws. Rest of your kit is utility so carries can't run away from your Ws.
Route lately has been Frog, Blue, Red, Rocks, base for Stalkers and 3-4 pots.
Edit: Samples from today. I'd have to say the obv "problem" for Sej is her lack of early game presence. I feel like in all of these games, I managed to prevent our team going into midgame is by counterganking where you think the enemy jungler will be.
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I think it's safe to confirm what Ketara and I suspected, Sejuani is without a doubt the strongest jungler on this patch.
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One tip: Warmogs sucks balls in every single situation. Get Righteous Glory instead. (Source: Scip.)
I've also been building Iceborn Gauntlet a lot, which basically is a snowball harder item since you can just solokill whoever you come across and they can't run away.
Personally I prefer 6 camp clear, then base for stalkers (or something else depending on the game) and green ward + pink ward + pots.
You might also like 21/9/0 as masteries. (http://www.lolking.net/summoner/euw/28804277#masteries, the aggro sej page, its 15 or so I think.)
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On March 17 2015 06:11 Fildun wrote:One tip: Warmogs sucks balls in every single situation. Get Righteous Glory instead. (Source: Scip.) I've also been building Iceborn Gauntlet a lot, which basically is a snowball harder item since you can just solokill whoever you come across and they can't run away. Personally I prefer 6 camp clear, then base for stalkers (or something else depending on the game) and green ward + pink ward + pots. You might also like 21/9/0 as masteries. ( http://www.lolking.net/summoner/euw/28804277#masteries, the aggro sej page, its 15 or so I think.)
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I think recovery is pretty butt on a champion you're building at least half tank on. Enchanted armor is amazing on a tank for 2 early tree points.
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United States37500 Posts
I'll test out Righteous Glory and 21/9 instead. I probably tunneled too hard on HP because I didn't mathcraft anything.
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Warmogs is bad unless you're up against a LOT of true damage IMO. I've never built it.
I think FH is better than thornmail most of the time. You can get both, but I will get FH first unless I'm behind vs a fed trynd or yi or something. Wouldn't be hard to mathcraft.
IMO the items you want are cinderhulk, FH, locket and randuin in whatever order. Then last item can be any one of:
Thornmail for armor
Banshee for MR
Liandry for damage
RG for utility/engage.
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I hugely prefer both Abyssal and Iceborn Gauntlet for damage items. Liandrys always feels so meh.
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Warmog is also hurt by the S5 changes that cut off 20% of it's HP in exchange for better regen. This makes it's most valuable aspect, being a fuckton of health to let you deal with physical and magical damage decently in a single slot, weaker. Ontop of that, the buff to RG also puts it at 150hp shy of Warmogs with much greater utility.
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On March 17 2015 07:14 Fildun wrote:
I hugely prefer both Abyssal and Iceborn Gauntlet for damage items. Liandrys always feels so meh.
This would not be hard to mathcraft. I'm with friends ATM but we can do this tonight ezpz.
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On March 17 2015 07:22 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 07:14 Fildun wrote:
I hugely prefer both Abyssal and Iceborn Gauntlet for damage items. Liandrys always feels so meh. This would not be hard to mathcraft. I'm with friends ATM but we can do this tonight ezpz.
"Tonight"
Implying it's not already 12 PM for us Euros
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Okay buttbags, lets figure this shit out. Conclusions on the next post.
We're going to assume 9/21 masteries (because I said so), and ignore Marks for runes, since really you can run wtfever there and neither Fildun nor I run Mpen.
We're going to assume level 18, and that the existing build is MercTreads Cinderhulk Locket Randuin FH.
We will also assume 1 dragon buff.
And we're going to figure out what's best between Abyssal, Liandry and Iceborne.
There's three things we need to consider. #1 - What's best for offense, #2 - What's best for defense, and #3 - What's best for utility.
What's best for utility is inconsequential, because I will submit that none of them provide consequential utility. Abyssals aura only adds damage, so that's not really utility. Iceborne gives a bunch of mana that's not the worst thing in the world, but not exactly consequential since you already have FH. The same with the CDR, you are already CDR capped so that's inconsequential.
What's left for Iceborne utility is the slow, and if we assume that every time you get a W+auto you also get an E, the Iceborne slow is also doing almost nothing.
So we can say that Iceborne gives more than zero utility and thus wins the utility battle, but the utility that it gives is really inconsequential and we're mostly looking at it for damage and defense. If you wanted a utility item you would have built Righteous Glory.
For Defense, here are our defensive stats after factoring expected enemy pen values and relevant Runes/Masteries.
+ Show Spoiler +Starting:
HP - 4259.05 + 230 shield
Armor - 320.95, 196.1 after pen
MR - 172.05, 77.32 after pen
EHP vs Phys - 12611.04
EHP vs Magic - 7959.98
With Abyssal:
HP - 4259.05 + 230 shield
Armor - 320.95, 196.1 after pen
MR - 224.55, 109.4 after pen
EHP vs Phys - 12611.04
EHP vs Magic - 9400.07
With Liandry:
HP - 4653.3 + 230 shield
Armor - 320.95, 196.1 after pen
MR - 172.05, 77.32 after pen
EHP vs Phys - 14459.45
EHP vs Magic - 8659.06
With Iceborne:
HP - 4259.05 + 230 shield
Armor - 394.45, 241 after pen
MR - 172.05, 77.32 after pen
EHP vs Phys - 15307.66
EHP vs Magic - 7959.98
So, here's our conclusions for defense.
Abyssal -
EHP vs Phys - 12611.04
EHP vs Magic - 9400.07
Liandry -
EHP vs Phys - 14459.45
EHP vs Magic - 8659.06
Iceborne -
EHP vs Phys - 15307.66
EHP vs Magic - 7959.98
If you're taking 50% phys 50% magic, Iceborne and Liandry are nearly identical, and both beat Abyssal by about 5%. If you're taking heavily one form of damage, either Abyssal or Iceborne is better depending.
So, next we're gonna do damage. This is, unfortunately, more complicated.
Here are our existing offensive stats:
120.84 AD
39.22 AP
40% CDR
And here is our existing DPS. I'm not gonna bother with burst because honestly tanky Sejuani's burst damage is real low and none of the items are gonna change that much, and I don't want to do that much maths.
+ Show Spoiler +Q - 41.77
W - 165.38 + 3% max HP
E - 55.44
R - 6.35
Cinderhulk - 51
Total: 319.94 + 3% max HP
And here's how much each item adds, not factoring the mpen (we'll be adding that in a little bit)
Abyssal -
Q - 4.49
W - 10.6 + .53% max HP
E - 10.30
R - 0.98
Total - 346.31 + 3.53% max HP
Liandry -
Q - 3.21
W - 18.6 + 0.41% max HP
E - 7.36
R - 0.70
Liandry Burn - 3% current HP (assuming targets are slowed 50% of the fight, which I feel is very conservative. Sejuani slow uptime should be near 100% in fights as long as about 20 seconds if you layer your skills properly.)
Total - 349.81 + 3.41% max HP + 3% current HP.
Iceborne -
Q - 1.92
W - 4.54 + .23% max HP
E - 4.41
R - 0.42
Iceborne Sheenstuff - 57.94 (assuming 1 per W and 1 per Q)
Total - 389.17 + 3.23% max HP
Here's our totals -
Abyssal: 346.31 + 3.53% max HP
Liandry: 349.81 + 3.41% max HP + 3% current HP.
Iceborne: 389.17 + 3.23% max HP
I'd like to point out that this is actually similar to the DPS of a 6 damage item Lux. 6 item Sejuani does a fuckton of damage even building full tank.
Anyway, now we have to factor pen. I'm actually going to pretend that the Iceborne damage is magic damage (it's not) just to make the math easier, but this is going to favor Iceborne because people usually have more Armor than MR, and even with that benefit Iceborne is going to end up in last place, so this is okay.
We're going to look at these numbers vs. typical expected end game squishy target MR values.
+ Show Spoiler +
63.6 MR (full damage APC or AD Assassin)
Abyssal: 241.16 + 2.45% max HP
Liandry: 235.40 + 2.29% max HP + 2.01% current HP.
Iceborne: 237.87 + 1.97% max HP
92 MR (ADC with MR runes, QSS and a Locket aura)
Abyssal: 201.34 + 2.05% max HP
Liandry: 197.63 + 1.92% max HP + 1.69% current HP.
Iceborne: 202.69 + 1.68% max HP
121.35 (APC with Banshee)
Abyssal: 171.99 + 1.75% max HP
Liandry: 169.52 + 1.65% max HP + 1.45% current HP.
Iceborne: 175.81 + 1.45% max HP
SO, here are our Offense results.
Liandry does the most damage when we're looking at Sejuani's damage. Abyssal is #2, Iceborne is #3.
However, Liandry's damage is only like 1% or 2% over Abyssals. It depends on how much the current HP damage is from the Liandry burn, which is hard to calculate. I'd be willing to bet that unless your team is all AD, the Abyssal aura is increasing your teams damage by enough to outpace Liandry.
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So here's your TL;DR:
Don't buy Iceborne it's bad. If you want a damage item against an all AD team, lets be real just get a Thornmail it's way better. I guess if you're literally against zero magic damage you could replace Locket with Iceborne, that makes sense. But if you lose a game on Sejuani against 5 AD I think I need to take away your Sejuani license anyway.
Buy Liandry for damage when one of the following is true:
A - Your team already has an Abyssal.
B - The rest of your team is all AD.
Otherwise, buy Abyssal.
So, Fildun was right (half right). THE EURO WINS AGAIN.
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"70 AP isn't gonna change burst damage" sure.
But yeah the math looks good, except I disagree with your build and runes/masteries, but I think that's a discussion we've had 20 times already so lets just leave that be.
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What I mean is that the difference between 70 AP, 50 AP + burn, and 30 AP + sheen, is not going to be very big for burst.
It's probably similar to the DPS numbers. Abyssal is probably slightly ahead, Liandry is ahead if the team already has an Abyssal aura, and Iceborne last place all the time.
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United States37500 Posts
Played three more games last night after our talks and 21/9 feels better. In first jungle run, I finish clearing the same camps as I did with 9/21 and I ended up with considerably more hp. I didn't check the times but I feel like it was slightly faster too.
Didn't get too many games where I could go zoom zoom with RG but the theory and mathcraft behind it is sound that I'm going to drop Warmog's going forward.
hotkey 1 slow (Randuin)
2 shield (Locket)
3 zoom zoom (RG)
With Cinderhulk and boots, that leaves one last slot, probably either FH or Abyssal it seems.
Against full AD team, I suppose I'd drop Locket for a FH and Liandry's for 6th.
Against full AP, Abyssal after Locket and Banshee's for 6th.
I guess this is my current train of thought for piglady.
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21/9 is slightly faster. You hit 6 about 15 seconds faster, in my experience. You hit 3 and 4 quite a bit faster.
But IMO, you're not going to gank before 6, and 9/21 has much better stats for actual fights, better enough that I feel like it's worth 15 seconds.
I'll do some clears and put some numbers down, I guess.
The thing is after your first clear, such a huge percentage of your clearing is just all coming from W, which doesn't really scale with offensive stats, that once you're level 6 and actually fighting enemy champions offensive masteries aren't helping very much.
Really what it comes down to is do you want a better early game (21/9) or a better late game (9/21)
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I'm not really sure 9/21 is all that better late game. -3% damage from slowed enemies, +Armor/MR per nearby champion, -10% damage from crits, Perseverance, and tenacity does not appear that much obviously better than Dangerous Game + 6% penetration + 3% increased damage. Certainly in 2v2's in the early-/mid-game I'd rather have 21/9.
I'm open to being persuaded the other way, but I also much prefer 21/9/0 with a full tank build.
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EPT
