EPT[Ultimate Guide] Pantheon - Page 7
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Sakray
France2198 Posts
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
On July 15 2013 16:28 Atrioc wrote: New Diamond 1 Pantheon Game with Commentary! Got hungry for some more D1 Pantheon VOD's, so I threw all my advice on drafting out the window and just first picked him blind. This game is vs. Katarina and showcases the splitpush style of Pantheon and how effective it can be in forcing the opponent to make a mistake. Part 1: + Show Spoiler [Part2] + I hope the above video helps a bit in showing some different situations! As to the questions, for 1) the FB gold did not help me in lane at all since I wasn't able to back after getting it - in fact, it really hurt me since I had no flash or ignite to be aggressive with in the early levels and drew early jungler attention. It wasnt able to kick in until after I got another kill on my lane opponent, so all it did was enhance my snowball. If I hadn't got the FB on Varus the entire lane would have been different because of how much threat I could put out starting at level 2. 2) I would never be afraid of a blue Eve level 2 gank (she actually came twice, once when ryze DID have W and it didnt change anything). If everything had gone completely standard then around when Ryze is turning level 3 and I know that Eve would be done with her red I will play passively until the very second I see Eve show up in some other lane then go agressive again. Theres no situation I dont see myself having a gold advantage of some sort on teleport Ryze for our respective first backs Forgive me if I"m way off base - but with the tone of the questions I get the vibe that you are essentially saying "you wouldn't have done as good if the enemy played better", which is pretty self-explanatory. The closer they get to perfect play the less I have to work with, but I don't think that's the right way to think about it for solo queue. They will make mistakes - a billion of them - and your job is to find them. Thanks for your response. And no I'm not saying that at all - I (and many Pantheons I see) struggle because it's so tricky balancing aggression without overextending, and against an opponent that greatly outscales then sometimes get stuck in the "I HAVE to get advantage early or I'm screwed" mentality. Pantheon lanes are so crucial in the first ~5 levels that I'm always curious how you would handle various situations. EDIT: Watching the video now, awesome to see how you handled (and explained) the level 3 potential gank. | ||
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Kenpachi
United States9908 Posts
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
On July 14 2013 04:36 Xenocide_Knight wrote: I just want to make it known that GhostOwl is this guy http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=378593 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=357216 http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=411969 Yeah, seriously fuck you for bringing that up. The first 2 links you brought up I can admit are my mistakes on my viewpoints but the third link, I did nothing wrong and Mani just attacked me and his fanboys just train-wrecked everything by blindly worshipping him, since as you can see other posters defending me about how I didn't do anything and I was just responding to him. You claim - I don't change my viewpoint or whatnot, but tell me what was in the 3rd link that I did was wrong and had to "change my viewpoint"? How would you like it if someone had no life and went to your search history and nitpicked your posts in the last few years? You're seriously scum. User was warned for this post | ||
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
On July 14 2013 06:57 stormtemplar wrote: Now that right there is one stellar posting history. How dare you people argue with such an upstanding paragon of the TL community. Seriously though, this isn't even worth arguing over. He has nothing backing his arguments other than some poorly crafted thought experiments, whereas the pro-AD assassins side has the opinions of dozens of high level players and tons of top level games in which an AD assassin was played. Frankly, anyone who thinks their own personal opinion is more valuable than that of just about every pro in existence and almost everyone in this community is not worth arguing with. I also never claimed AD mid WASN'T viable. I said that it does work with the right team compositions. I just said that I prefer AP mage mids over AD bruisers/assassins It's unbelievable how people quote you and put words you never said in your mouth just because they failed to read everything they quoted. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On July 17 2013 03:26 GhostOwl wrote: I also never claimed AD mid WASN'T viable. I said that it does work with the right team compositions. I just said that I prefer AP mage mids over AD bruisers/assassins It's unbelievable how people quote you and put words you never said in your mouth just because they failed to read everything they quoted. On July 12 2013 21:59 GhostOwl wrote: This is so damn nice. Props to you. Too bad it had to be a guide on mid lane Pantheon. Something that is against my views. AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC. Additionally, picking AD for your mid makes it so that your entire team is AD unless your top specifically picks AP top. Furthermore, I don't like champs don't scale well into late game. If you get high kill count, you take kills away from your team because you're useless late game. If you don't get a high kill count, you're not doing your job very well and will not have the gold to fully utilize your damage orientated build. Anyway, Pantheon mid, I don't like/agree with, but your guide is beautiful. Now you're straight up lying about what you have and haven't said. AD mids are perfectly viable, at every level of play. Pantheon himself may not be completely viable in the top competitive play, but Atrioc goes IN DETAIL about the weaknesses of Pantheon and you are just bringing up really bad reasons why it's not a good choice. Other AD mids are VERY viable in competitive play (e.g. Zed, Jayce) and you really aren't contributing anything to this discussion by giving bad reasons why AD mids are bad. Shit, even 5x AD teams are even completely viable, as long as you have sources of armor shred so you aren't running against the clock of enemy armor-stacking. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On July 15 2013 16:28 Atrioc wrote: Clickrush had a great response and the key words from it were: "Be Brave" - you have to assert yourself pretty early on in this lane and make EXCELLENT use of your passive since her damage is like entirely auto attacks early. By pressuring her heavily early you force her to make tough choices like how to itemize for armor (which you are pressuring her into) and mana (which orianna desperately needs) at the same time. If she comes back with a chalice and you come back with something like a dblade + long sword theres just no way she can compete. I've only played like 3 panth games and just vsed an ori. Completely crushed her thanks to this advice. It's amazing what just saying fuck it and going deep does against people. She came back with a chalice and I came back with Dblade exactly as you said then turned into a feed fest. My only real issue is do I still get a tear even if I get blue buff? It seems managable even without tear/blue if I don't spam waves constantly and just roam -> back -> push -> roam -> back. | ||
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
On July 17 2013 04:10 sylverfyre wrote: Now you're straight up lying about what you have and haven't said. AD mids are perfectly viable, at every level of play. Pantheon himself may not be completely viable in the top competitive play, but Atrioc goes IN DETAIL about the weaknesses of Pantheon and you are just bringing up really bad reasons why it's not a good choice. Other AD mids are VERY viable in competitive play (e.g. Zed, Jayce) and you really aren't contributing anything to this discussion by giving bad reasons why AD mids are bad. Shit, even 5x AD teams are even completely viable, as long as you have sources of armor shred so you aren't running against the clock of enemy armor-stacking. How am I lying? I said AD mids were against my views, and I preferred AP mids.I complained AP mids couldn't be picked, but that does not equal me saying AD mids aren't viable. I also said I didn't like it and gave reasons why but I never said it wasn't viable. There is nowhere in my post where I have said AD mid wasn't viable, I m sure it can be with the right team and gameplan. If I'm straight up lying about it, find where I said so. If you can't, stop talking | ||
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Advocado
Denmark994 Posts
http://www.twitch.tv/advocadosc2/c/2587213 - Starts at 50:00 I made many mistakes in the lategame of jumping in with ultimate trying to force fights. I am more interested in my laning phase and what I could have done better there. I tried to keep the wave outside of my tower but I couldnt put a single dent in akali with a health regen bead? | ||
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On July 17 2013 11:36 GhostOwl wrote: How am I lying? I said AD mids were against my views, and I preferred AP mids.I complained AP mids couldn't be picked, but that does not equal me saying AD mids aren't viable. I also said I didn't like it and gave reasons why but I never said it wasn't viable. There is nowhere in my post where I have said AD mid wasn't viable, I m sure it can be with the right team and gameplan. If I'm straight up lying about it, find where I said so. If you can't, stop talking I don't give a fuck about your views. Especially since they're not about Pantheon. Can you shut the fuck up and stop posting shit in this beautiful thread? Thanks, Everyone reading this thread | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On July 17 2013 12:17 Advocado wrote: Anyone want to give me some feedback on my pantheon? http://www.twitch.tv/advocadosc2/c/2587213 - Starts at 50:00 I made many mistakes in the lategame of jumping in with ultimate trying to force fights. I am more interested in my laning phase and what I could have done better there. I tried to keep the wave outside of my tower but I couldnt put a single dent in akali with a health regen bead? Looks like early game, there's several times that you are letting akali get in melee range of you but you're not autoing her. She should either A) never be allowed anywhere near picking up CS via anything but Q or B) getting meleed in the face whenever she tries. You're also missing a lot of early CS despite the fact that, for the MOST part, Akali is reduced to CSing with Q only. If she can only pick up half the CS because you're zoning her, but you're missing half the CS despite full control of the lane, you aren't really building any advantage out of zoning her. Akali, esp with double rejuv bead, has a lot of sustain but almost no kill pressure pre-6. You need to be careful with your mana, but you also need to allin her a little more forcefully rather than try to slowly whittle her down with the occasional spear - you're letting her spellvamp do work by only harassing her with spears rather than being more forceful. If you can chunk her hard and make her too scared to Q creeps constantly, she loses a lot of her sustain and needs to blow multiple pots or just recall. You also lost a lot off that failed amumu gank just from losing a bunch of health to it. It's the standard 3 minute timing that Atrioc talked about in his most recent video, but you still haven't placed your ward. Vlad even pinged it for you. Even if you only have 1 ward in mid, you can ward one side and play to that side. Place that starting ward before 3:00! Your first jumpgank bot, it seemed clear that they had a clue it was coming before you started casting jump - they were already backing off to the turret (maybe they saw udyr in their bot jungle Maybe they saw you moving south out of mid lane?) so when amumu counterganked it was really bad for you guys. You blew flash and akali got to freefarm mid. 4 longswords and no doran blades, I'm not sure how I feel about that. I get that you want a brutalizer and couldnt afford at the time, but doran's.... You probably also want to buy a pink if you ever expect to be able to kill akali. Might have had a kill on her @ level 8 with one? That's the best my amateur analysis skills can handle. | ||
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StimiLant
United States534 Posts
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On July 17 2013 17:01 sylverfyre wrote: Looks like early game, there's several times that you are letting akali get in melee range of you but you're not autoing her. She should either A) never be allowed anywhere near picking up CS via anything but Q or B) getting meleed in the face whenever she tries. You're also missing a lot of early CS despite the fact that, for the MOST part, Akali is reduced to CSing with Q only. If she can only pick up half the CS because you're zoning her, but you're missing half the CS despite full control of the lane, you aren't really building any advantage out of zoning her. (...) I want to emphasize how important it is to learn to auto at every occasion with panth in lane. Panth can straight up force a flash from a careless (mid) laners even from lvl 1-2 on just by walking up to them and autoing them. His kit allows him to tank 2 full autoattacks (which is freaking huge at early levels) and he will be able to throw 2 spears + mb a stun. It's really amazing how much stronger he is than most champions in that lvl range. akalis damage is just staight up lower even if considered high at early levels as well. her double q is only a bit more than your spear but has a higher cd and is magical (bad at early levels), while your passive is like a universe better at that stage and your autos hurt more. The panth vs akali matchup is kind of similar to panth vs diana though. You generally win pre 6 engagements but if you don't gain an advantage during that time you are in trouble. Because with such reliable and spammable high damage, high mobility ults they are able to outtrade you if you are not ahead and even then you gotta be carefull. It's easyer for you to harass them and you win short trades still but when they combo you with their ults you gotta be prepared to back off. Also Zonyas is pretty huge on these champions. In comparison diana is an overall stronger champ than akali because pinks, but there are lot's of ways to outplay her as well, mainly by baiting Qs and Shields. And that's kind of the cool thing about panth isnt it? You can allways do some smart aggressive move and straitght up kill someone with it. He is just so fast at punishing mistakes. | ||
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DrunkenOne
United States302 Posts
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Advocado
Denmark994 Posts
I have been CRUSHING face with the toplane build. Granted I've gotten some kinda easier lane opponents in Xin Zhao and Kennen. Is it me or is the hexdrinker VERY situational in that it doesn't do as much for pantheon? | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
![[image loading]](http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/7278/bravery.jpg) | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
And why does the victory screen look so different? And who is 5HITCOMBO? | ||
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Advocado
Denmark994 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On July 19 2013 03:44 Advocado wrote: The old leviathan was a 20 stack hp item. Its an old screenshot. Woosh No Triforce, Caller? I am disappoint. | ||
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