Thanks to Locicero and Smashgizmo for getting me started down the path of becoming a Pantheon fanatic! Everyone on the TL staff who makes this website so awesome, especially on this subforum (Go Neo!) which is by far the best place for intelligent LoL discussion!
Special thanks to TL's Mafia for putting up with my constant Pantheon play when we duo queued on my smurf! The fun I had in those games really spurred me to finish this guide
I hope you all enjoyed the guide and maybe it helped you rack up some kills while also having a lot of fun playing the game!
New Diamond 1 Pantheon Game with Commentary! Got hungry for some more D1 Pantheon VOD's, so I threw all my advice on drafting out the window and just first picked him blind. This game is vs. Katarina and showcases the splitpush style of Pantheon and how effective it can be in forcing the opponent to make a mistake. Part 1:
Full Diamond 1 Game with Commentary! Here is a full recent game I played at Diamond 1 (around 50lp) complete with commentary on all my decisions/thought processes: Part 1:
Showing how Pantheon can be used to absolutely take control over a gold level game when played aggressively. Some key moments:
- Early game hyper aggression at level 1 to gain dominance of the lane and force him to pop his red pot far earlier than he would want.
- Snowball that lane lead into the ability to roam to my jungle and stop the invade without him being able to follow safely (HUGELY important, this shows how pressure can lead to more pressure which can lead to huge game losing mistakes by your opponents).
- By 5 minutes I have double buff, 2 kills, have drawn massive jungler attention to give my other lanes breathing room, and have crippled my lane opponent - THIS is how you want to be playing as Pantheon.
- As top lane Pantheon, I use my jump on my lane opponent a lot more than usual because its so hard to effectively roam bottom lane without losing your tower. At 6 you can see me take down Lee Sin by suprising him with a jump from the brush.
- By 10 minutes I have 3x my lane opponent's CS and have at least allowed my other lanes to go even by dragging so much jungler pressure.
- At around 12 minutes I kill Lee Sin again by using my jump - the key thing about this is that it eliminates his ability to counterplay me by giving me the first move. Since I am able to use my "W" while falling from the sky, he is stunned and taking damage before he has any ability to react or escape.
- I now feel that Lee has died enough and that spending too much more time on him is wasting the huge power spike I'm currently in because of how little gold he is worth. I start roaming to keep pressure throughout the map.
- At 17 minutes I make good use of map awareness to see that Lee Sin has just shut down Zac in the top lane but was left fairly low and manage to get the jump on him yet again.
- By 20 minutes, they surrender. A solid, clean, Pantheon-esque victory. Not every game will turn out like this, but I swear this is not something I cherry-picked - any Pantheon game I play at this elo will almost always go similarly smooth because of how aggressive I am able to be to get the snowball rolling and keep morale high on my team.
Amazing guide, as a pantheon main, I'm so glad he has such a worthy guide now.
One other opening you might want to mention is boots as it gives you a killer level 4 all in while really capitalizing on the speed of a spartan warrior. Especially vs someone like cho where, as you pointed out, you need the early kill, I feel the boots lets you dodge the rupture/silence, run from the jungle gank with highest base ms in the game, and chase down kills (this really applies to top lane since it's so much longer). With boots, you can change your all in combo to
Q->W->ignite->auto->E->auto->Q.
Panth also has a faily long auto attack range so combined with boots, it's really easy to sneak the extra auto in after your E ends. Boots also lets you Q at the beginning and end of your all in, really increasing the total damage output. Assuming flat AD page, 21 offense, 52 enemy armor, and boots start, you're looking at around 530~ damage with your lvl 4 all in, not taking into account executioner or certain death. I really like that you point out to save mana at lvl 2, so if you calculate your mana properly, you can spear them down at lvl 3 to around 500hp and then all in as soon as you hit lvl 4. Boots opening also has the added bonus of not telegraphing your aggressive intent as much as an elixir start might.
I also run 21-0-9 sometimes for the added mana regen and biscuit since against a lot of melee laners in general, you won't be getting hit much with boots start+aegis.
Atrioc how do you feel about top lane Panth? I know you addressed it in passing in the guide.
When I play against Pantheon in the top lane I feel like on a bruiser I can just run him out of mana with consumables, back and get some armor, dshield whatever and not feel threatened. Or pick a ranged champ, think Kennen, Ryze, Jayce and farm to outscale him.
Look for good ults mid, try to invade with jungler when you're strong early or push them to tower?
That must be a bitch to edit and update (you may want to use the [anchor] tag and links in your table of contents too, to make it easier to navigate the guide since we can't use the search function because of the pictures). Props for the efforts, it obviously took a lot of work.
Quick questions: - you mention Malzahar as a pretty favourable match-up, is that because of his low mobility to respond to your roaming? He has very good (and pretty much free) pushing, coupled with harass if you don't position well (made harder by being a melee), and long range which lets him E you at will when you come up to Q him (he doesn't refund mana nor pushes this way though, and at early levels the cooldown leaves him vulnerable unless he has a Voidling to zone you). Can't he just play passive and punish you with his jungler for having to pressure so far? - same with Annie, her Q has the same cooldown and a bit more range than yours, coupled with more base damage and her autoattacks to make up for you having more MR than she has armour. Her passive makes this harass worse by allowing more autos. Is it about threatening a 2-5 all-in (since your autos and E hit harder to make up for her previous harass) so she doesn't stay around too long?
- What is the point of the Perseus build/Tear start? You're weaker early game because of the 700 gold which only give you mana that some pots would give you for much less, and for raw damage a BT associated with his scaling would give more (assuming a total pool of ~2000 mana, giving Muramana 60 AD and a diminishing 120 damage on-hit/ability effect, Muramana does more at first on Qs and autos, but less on E). It weakens your pushing power because it delays the point at which you have enough AD to one-shot the waves (the reason why I skip brutaliser if I can get a fast BT, even if it means coming to lane with a bunch in bank, super-push 2-3 waves and back for BFS asap), it doesn't give its damage very soon so you can't really burst/assassinate as well. In exchange, you handle tanky/sustain lanes better because you can't be run oom and you get a stronger single target damage output later—at the cost of sustain (important for dueling too) and coming at a timing where you peak has already passed (you give a ~30 minutes estimation). However, it is also pretty smooth, because a Tear is easy to build, and getting the Manamune is only 400 then 1000 gold, compared to 1550 for BT's or 1025 for LW's single highest increments. I'm having trouble seeing the point you make for a Tear opening (and later Muramana) being the currently best one. Is it because, while I see the others as good and Tear underwhelming, you see the others as greedy while Tear is the most consistent?
On July 07 2013 03:07 Xenocide_Knight wrote: Amazing guide, as a pantheon main, I'm so glad he has such a worthy guide now.
The previous one is actually one of the best in this section, if only for the its comprehensive playstyle section which addresses a lot of things, from how to leverage pressure (from item advantage) early, to clearing misconceptions about Panth's late game. Doesn't take anything away from this one obviously.
On July 07 2013 03:07 Xenocide_Knight wrote: Amazing guide, as a pantheon main, I'm so glad he has such a worthy guide now.
The previous one is actually one of the best in this section, if only for the its comprehensive playstyle section which addresses a lot of things, from how to leverage pressure (from item advantage) early, to clearing misconceptions about Panth's late game. Doesn't take anything away from this one obviously.
Yea but this one goes more in depth into why Pantheon is awesome and that's really the true essence of playing Pantheon.
10-2-7 as jungle Pantheon with your build. Quite fun to play pantheon again as I used to play him back when he was truly OP (with the full map Skyfall and heartseeker/striker(?). Last normal game on my summoner.
On July 07 2013 06:26 GrandInquisitor wrote: How do you reconcile the desire for early kills and aggression with purchasing a Tear, a 700g item that won't do anything for a long time?
Mana is a very good offensive stat if you can use it. With pantheon it'll be pretty easy to abuse.
Wow this is probably the best atheistically looking and in depth Pantheon I've ever seen, love the art and marginal images you used, was really pleasing to my eyes
Hey everyone thanks so much for all the kind responses! The parts about people trying out Pantheon where they wouldn't have before are my favorite - hes an awesome fun champion and I'm glad to get more people into him the way earlier guides did for me.
I'm gonna try and respond to all the direct questions:
On July 07 2013 03:19 JonnyLaw wrote: Atrioc how do you feel about top lane Panth? I know you addressed it in passing in the guide.
When I play against Pantheon in the top lane I feel like on a bruiser I can just run him out of mana with consumables, back and get some armor, dshield whatever and not feel threatened. Or pick a ranged champ, think Kennen, Ryze, Jayce and farm to outscale him.
Look for good ults mid, try to invade with jungler when you're strong early or push them to tower?
I feel like top lane Panth is, generally, not a good pick: has too many tough matchups (mostly people that are super comfortable just stacking armor, like you mentioned), his spear harass is not helped by the long lane + ability to hide in bushes, his already annoying global jungler taunt becomes a true nightmare (especially when trying to go agressive early), and really worst of all is that he has a much harder time ulting bot lane at the right time (his ability to gank that lane so effectively is the single strongest unique thing about Pantheon currently)
However, that doesn't mean I wont pick him here occasionally and I certainly wont be afraid to swap lanes with my top laner after the game has started if we think it will be a more favorable matchup. A lot of times in top lane I'm relying on outplaying the opponent with aggression and relying on their being really unfamiliar with the matchup (How many times has this renekton played vs a competent Pantheon top really?) - Pantheon also combos amazingly well with jungler ganks so if your team has the more aggressive carnivore jungler (say Jarvan vs Maokai) you can actually snowball the game outright by setting up a 2v2 top lane or two-man invading the enemy's jungle. Definitely ult mid whenever possible, try to get them snowballing so hard that they can roam and win bot lane like you would have.
On July 07 2013 03:26 Alaric wrote: That must be a bitch to edit and update (you may want to use the [anchor] tag and links in your table of contents too, to make it easier to navigate the guide since we can't use the search function because of the pictures). Props for the efforts, it obviously took a lot of work.
Quick questions: - you mention Malzahar as a pretty favourable match-up, is that because of his low mobility to respond to your roaming? He has very good (and pretty much free) pushing, coupled with harass if you don't position well (made harder by being a melee), and long range which lets him E you at will when you come up to Q him (he doesn't refund mana nor pushes this way though, and at early levels the cooldown leaves him vulnerable unless he has a Voidling to zone you). Can't he just play passive and punish you with his jungler for having to pressure so far? - same with Annie, her Q has the same cooldown and a bit more range than yours, coupled with more base damage and her autoattacks to make up for you having more MR than she has armour. Her passive makes this harass worse by allowing more autos. Is it about threatening a 2-5 all-in (since your autos and E hit harder to make up for her previous harass) so she doesn't stay around too long?
- What is the point of the Perseus build/Tear start? You're weaker early game because of the 700 gold which only give you mana that some pots would give you for much less, and for raw damage a BT associated with his scaling would give more (assuming a total pool of ~2000 mana, giving Muramana 60 AD and a diminishing 120 damage on-hit/ability effect, Muramana does more at first on Qs and autos, but less on E). It weakens your pushing power because it delays the point at which you have enough AD to one-shot the waves (the reason why I skip brutaliser if I can get a fast BT, even if it means coming to lane with a bunch in bank, super-push 2-3 waves and back for BFS asap), it doesn't give its damage very soon so you can't really burst/assassinate as well. In exchange, you handle tanky/sustain lanes better because you can't be run oom and you get a stronger single target damage output later—at the cost of sustain (important for dueling too) and coming at a timing where you peak has already passed (you give a ~30 minutes estimation). However, it is also pretty smooth, because a Tear is easy to build, and getting the Manamune is only 400 then 1000 gold, compared to 1550 for BT's or 1025 for LW's single highest increments. I'm having trouble seeing the point you make for a Tear opening (and later Muramana) being the currently best one. Is it because, while I see the others as good and Tear underwhelming, you see the others as greedy while Tear is the most consistent?
@Malzahar matchup - Everything you say is totally correct, and I think a mistake-free Malzahar would be actually quite difficult to lane against. Generally what I've found though is that because he brings no CC pre-6, I can either play quite aggressive, especially with proper map awareness/jungler awareness, and even if I'm ganked I'm looking a lot more at blowing flash than actually being killed, OR I will play safer and chug consumables while they push the wave towards me and leave themselves extremely vulnurable to a jungler gank of my own. Once I get ahead in this matchup I find it very easy to punish him (hes very vulnerable to the fake roam-> he pushes thinking you are gone -> you skyfall right on his head, often with your jungler popping out too). I agree its not as cut and dry as I made it seem though!
@Annie matchup - I've never found her to be able to trade effectively at all. Her Q does have a longer range, but its fairly long casting animation and Pantheon's high movespeed means Its near impossible to not at least trade a spear back to her every single time. It has a slightly higher base damage, but she also has a lower base health, health per level, and base armor than you have base magic resistance. If she throws in an auto during the Q trade its blocked by your passive. Definitely play safe while her stun is up, but I don't go into this matchup afraid!
@Tear start - This evolved out of a lot of studying of Kassadin (I wanted to learn/improve on him) and how the best item on the first back, whether it was for going offensively in lane, defensively in lane, or building for mid/late game on him, was tear of the goddess for all of the above. Pantheon (with the Q trading, strong melee attack that you try to squeeze in whenever possible, and a relatively weak "E" until its leveled up) had a similar playstyle in laning to me, and so as I experimented with it I was finding that it covered a lot of holes in my game and - should I get ahead - really allowed me to snowball uncontrollably.
As someone else mentioned, mana can be an extremely effective offensive stat, and 700 Gold is really phenomenally cheap (for the same price I could return with a long sword + pots, which I have not found to be more effective in giving me lane dominance, especially when I already started flask).
For the small upfront investment, I get: - Complete freedom from mana concerns for the entire game - Similiarly, while I may be later in being able to one-shot the waves, I can freely use my spear/E on the wave / wraith camp / wolf camp because I have no mana concerns in spamming my spear/"E" to take it down, and generally find that I have actually a lot more ability to farm, rather than less. - Freedom to give my jungler blues -> being able to give your jungler the 2nd blue buff especially is so huge in solo queue in my experience. I can think of a LOT of times where my level 5 Amumu/Maokai/Skarner/Eve/etc. has hit level 6 off of taking the blue buff for themselves and gone on to make plays with that advantage. Being able to give them more freedom to make plays while not sacrificing anything in my own lane is pretty huge to me.
*Edit* I also forgot to agree with you - it has a super smooth build path that lets you get slightly stronger every time that you back!
On July 07 2013 06:48 Chrispy wrote: This is so beautiful. The text might be a tad bit too small on some parts though. O
I heard that from some of my friends who have different monitor resolution than me and I'm definitely looking into it - I want it to be readable by anyone!
On July 07 2013 08:24 Kiett wrote: Very nice guide.
Although I see that some of the images have a bit of jpeg artifact. I would recommend reuploading them as PNGs, would improve the quality a lot
As far as I know I saved/uploaded them all as PNG-24, but I notice some of what you are talking about too! Is that a byproduct of uploading them on imgur or something? Is there anything I can do to sharpen it to get exactly what I'm seeing in Photoshop?
big fan of having another panth thread. Last one got me into playing him and I would wreck face but stopped playing him for some other champs. Going to give this a try and hopefully break the silver one curse and break my way into gold after a few normal warm up matches. wish me luck and thank you!
On July 07 2013 08:24 Kiett wrote: Very nice guide.
Although I see that some of the images have a bit of jpeg artifact. I would recommend reuploading them as PNGs, would improve the quality a lot
As far as I know I saved/uploaded them all as PNG-24, but I notice some of what you are talking about too! Is that a byproduct of uploading them on imgur or something? Is there anything I can do to sharpen it to get exactly what I'm seeing in Photoshop?
Yes, imgur will compress all images larger than 1mb (PNG files are quite large, so this is likely to happen), which would explain why some of your images are PNG and some have been turned into JPG. Instead of imgur, I would suggest hosting directly on TL with your staff uploads. No size limits or bad compression! :D
p.s. were you the one in that dyrus/chaox 0-13 comeback game haha
On July 07 2013 08:24 Kiett wrote: Very nice guide.
Although I see that some of the images have a bit of jpeg artifact. I would recommend reuploading them as PNGs, would improve the quality a lot
As far as I know I saved/uploaded them all as PNG-24, but I notice some of what you are talking about too! Is that a byproduct of uploading them on imgur or something? Is there anything I can do to sharpen it to get exactly what I'm seeing in Photoshop?
Yes, imgur will compress all images larger than 1mb (PNG files are quite large, so this is likely to happen), which would explain why some of your images are PNG and some have been turned into JPG. Instead of imgur, I would suggest hosting directly on TL with your staff uploads. No size limits or bad compression! :D
p.s. were you the one in that dyrus/chaox 0-13 comeback game haha
Thank you so much, I'll do that ASAP.
and yes, I was the one directly responsible for throwing the game haha. So embarrassing T_T.
Regarding the Tear, I realised that a bunch of what I've been saying is affected by me being a side lane Pantheon at heart (when he started becoming popular mid I still prefered top, partly because I found it easier to hit spears against mostly melee opponents often lacking instaclear, my playstyle revolved around starving my opponents rather than snowballing other lanes so a long lane eased zoning, and having a better knack for jungle ganks top than mid made playing aggressive easier), some of it you already mentioned yourself in why you don't like him top as much: + Show Spoiler [Because I know concision as much as Pa…] +
- mids are less likely to plain rush Tabi or Guardian's Mail against you, removing part of the "arms race" which requires you to keep piling on ArPen/AD lest you become useless (as you need to put huge pressure on whoever you face). So you gain freedom in itemisation (including Tear) when playing mid.
- mids are often squishier (be it base stats or masteries/runes setups), requiring less hits (# of spears) to get in kill range. Compared to top lane, where you build damage to maintain that #, in mid lane building something else would keep the # constant while building damage would lower it. So you don't technically lose out by going Tear—you only don't win right now, and the problem of delaying power for the low-scaling Pantheon is addressed in the next point
- like you mentioned, Pantheon thrives hard on enemy mistakes as a strong laning/early game champion who relies on snowballing. Thus, he becomes less effective as you go higher—that's the conclusion, the preceding reasoning being that less mistakes means you don't snowball as hard and some itemisation path are closed to you—as a Silver I player I'm more likely than you to be able to go BT first because people in my games will make more mistakes on average and feed me/give me the gold to go down those itemisation paths. As you go higher, you need your build and playstyle to become more consistent to be able not to rely on enemy play rather than your own. Going Tear may lock you out of that straight BT if you go 3-0 during the first 5 minutes, but since it's a scenario far less likely to happen in your games, the loss-on-average gets lower the better your opponents become. While it is not a concern for one-off games at low level, if you plan on improving and climbing you have take that into account (eg. it's never too early to get good habits).
- I just noticed that Muramana actually triggers on your W, meaning Panth's single-target burst is actually stronger than I thought with it. You seem to favour 1 on 1 duels and waiting for an opportunity to pounce on the backline while my teamfighting/late game playstyle revolves more around hitting several money 3-man HSS for 1300 damage each, so obviously I get more mileage out of raw AD.
It's all fine, except for that part where Panth doesn't charge Tear too fast and thus spends some time lacking the early damage from AD/ArPen buys while not yet having enough mana for to make up for it with sheer amount of spells cast at the enemy. The issue being that it combines with the levels 5-9 where he's looking to snowball, and thus where burst and ensuring kills (and thus objectives) is important to him. Or at least I'm under the impression that Tear hinders the timing at which Panth wants raw impact the most. I haven't really played Tear Pantheon, nor have I played him as much as you (nor at the same level), especially recently, so I'm gonna have to trust your experience on that one, try it out for myself and judge if I'm simply off on the time where Tear takes off or if its because of me not playing it properly.
Also, you advise to take Ghost rather than Flash in the jungle. Is it because you'll have inherently less damage than a laning Pantheon, making dps more important than burst, and thus Ghost's chasing capabilities stronger when ganking/invading?
I usually play panth top lane but I have had great success building boots of mobility on pantheon. It does cut down on your survivability but I have found it really useful for chasing people down and roaming even harder. Also I have found FH to be an amazing defensive item on pantheon because of the cdr and mana. I don't know if you have tired these items out but I have found them to be very useful. Great guide!
hello king of panth hype, I notice you are big into mercurial scimitar as a situational buy. I've been getting it almost constantly on talon lately and it feels like a huge upgrade vs other options like ga or hexdrinker, and im starting to think it's pretty much just the best MR option for this specific type of character, and that I should leave hexdrinker exclusively to bruisers. What are your thoughts on scimitar vs hexdrinker.
Hay Atrioc, I'm new to Pantheon and don't know the skill order for him. Could you help me please :c Many friends of mine tell me to start Q > W > E and then maxing Q > E > W, would that be okay ? o:
On July 07 2013 17:05 Nuiyuki wrote: Hay Atrioc, I'm new to Pantheon and don't know the skill order for him. Could you help me please :c Many friends of mine tell me to start Q > W > E and then maxing Q > E > W, would that be okay ? o:
I'm not Atrioc, but skill order for Pantheon is pretty straightforward and doesn't change much. You pretty much always max R>Q>E>W. You want to get a point in W at level 2. So your opening skill setup should be QWQEQR. The reason behind that is because your E honestly doesn't do that much damage at level 1~2. Its damage is mostly from the absurd scaling of the ability. W is used just for the stun and to proc your passive. The damage on it is not really a factor in most situations.
Also, you want to do QWQEQ because as Pantheon, your laning revolves around you being able to poke your opponent down with your Qs. As such, your strong points in lane are levels 1, 3, and 5; basically every time you level up Q. Early on, your E is more valuable for the 100% crit passive and to proc your passive. It's not until you get items and more levels in E where it really starts to hurt.
Very well done and highly interesting! This will probably help me get started with Pantheon as I have not played him much in the past. I am a bit sad though that this is in image form and I cannot mark text as it sometimes is difficult to read.
What's your thought on instead of going HP regen necklace you get 5 mana pots or 4 pots and an extra ward? I feel like that's a stronger opening a lot of the time, especially against armor/sustain champs like Cho. Unlimited mana for aggression and safe last-hitting with spears if you get camped. An extra ward to cover both sides of the lane to make aggression safer. It seems to me that 4 mana pots and an extra ward is simply superior to the necklace since Panth really need to win his lane more than he needs gold efficiency with the regen.
GUIDE HAS BEEN UPDATED TO INCLUDE SKILL ORDER PAGE Thanks Nuiyuki!
On July 07 2013 17:05 Nuiyuki wrote: Hay Atrioc, I'm new to Pantheon and don't know the skill order for him. Could you help me please :c Many friends of mine tell me to start Q > W > E and then maxing Q > E > W, would that be okay ? o:
I cannot believe I forgot to upload the Skill Order page! Its a really unique part of the guide and the way I play Pantheon, so thank you so much for pointing this out, haha. I have fixed the error and put it in now (between Matchups and Playstyle)
On July 07 2013 17:04 UniversalSnip wrote: hello king of panth hype, I notice you are big into mercurial scimitar as a situational buy. I've been getting it almost constantly on talon lately and it feels like a huge upgrade vs other options like ga or hexdrinker, and im starting to think it's pretty much just the best MR option for this specific type of character, and that I should leave hexdrinker exclusively to bruisers. What are your thoughts on scimitar vs hexdrinker.
I agree haha. Scimitar has a really huge skill ceiling and the more I buy it the stronger I feel with it - you can make a LOT of plays that people don't expect by completely invalidating a CC and vs. many characters it makes you a much stronger duelist.
On July 07 2013 12:41 rigelq wrote: I usually play panth top lane but I have had great success building boots of mobility on pantheon. It does cut down on your survivability but I have found it really useful for chasing people down and roaming even harder. Also I have found FH to be an amazing defensive item on pantheon because of the cdr and mana. I don't know if you have tired these items out but I have found them to be very useful. Great guide!
I love boots of mobility when I am smurfing on Pantheon, because I get super impatient and just want to grab as many kills as possible, but I think its only really useful if you are really outplaying the other team. Tabi and Mercs are so powerful that I cant really recommend skipping them if you are actually tryharding. I'll definitely give frozen heart a try!
On July 07 2013 20:36 AsnSensation wrote: Ok Real talk though! WHICH SKIN?
For me only Perseus Pantheon gg no re. (He-ManTheon is acceptable, too) Full metal so overrated.
Perseus Pantheon was one of the first skins I ever bought, one of my favorite of all time, and the skin I always use if I'm really really tryharding on Pantheon.
But I really like how flashy Myrmidion Pantheon is and I like to use that one a lot too.
On July 07 2013 21:07 Potatisodlaren wrote: What's your thought on instead of going HP regen necklace you get 5 mana pots or 4 pots and an extra ward? I feel like that's a stronger opening a lot of the time, especially against armor/sustain champs like Cho. Unlimited mana for aggression and safe last-hitting with spears if you get camped. An extra ward to cover both sides of the lane to make aggression safer. It seems to me that 4 mana pots and an extra ward is simply superior to the necklace since Panth really need to win his lane more than he needs gold efficiency with the regen.
You mean like 5 health pots, 4 mana pots, and a ward? I can honestly say I've never tried it and I will definitely look into it. Generally if I was going to start that many consumables though, I would prefer a flask start to be a little more efficient. I think 4 mana pots might be too many (crazy as that sounds) and since the rejuv bead builds so cleanly into tiamat I hate to give it up so easily. What about rejuv bead + 4 health pots + 1 mana pot?
I bought Pantheon a few months ago after a couple games top lane as Teemo against him where he just threw spears at me nonstop and blocked all my attacks. Then I started to play him top lane, and went 1-6. This guide made me interested in playing him mid lane though, and went 3-0 today, going 11-3-8, 7-2-5 and 10-3-5. Good stuff! :D
Now 4-0 after going 6-0-7 last game! Lost my first game top lane because our jungle Fiddlesticks decided that since he was getting counterjungled, the solution was to buy 0 wards and instead rush philosopher's stone, kage's and mobility boots. Then when we were doing baron, he just lets Nunu walk up and take it. I mean...
Okay, noob question here after reading the guide. At six and onwards, what are you supposed to do vs Zed? It feels as though he can afford to build defensively and still deal tons of damage, something I find Panth can't really do. It's not even like zoning him is easy, as he can still cs from a distance (unless I'm playing badly, but I really feel as though there really isn't anything I can do). The other problem is that Zed is a lot more difficult to gank as well. You have to be constantly worrying but can be pretty safe while making you his bitch. Also, I recently had the joy of facing tiger udyr top. He took pretty much all of the creep agro, I took barely any, and we killed each other. Then from there, he beat me up terribly. He could dive me and still end up with a kill (though I killed him too) by like level 3/4. Then I learned that Tiger stance deals this weird damage where you get hurt after getting hit (delayed damage I guess) and wasted a flash. I suppose the point of this story is that Udyr, while I may be too low level to say this, could be a tough lane for panth.
His movement speed and bear makes it actually not too hard to get to Panth and "force" him to fight. Tiger will make it so that even if you stay and fight, you will lose out hard unless you get into a good position. If you can't force him into a bad position early on, turtle starts letting him slowly ignore your harass (and with a couple of mana pots from Udyr, he can keep this up pretty easily). His gank assist I find is similar to Panth's, but it's also a lot harder to gank Udyr than it is Panth (recurring theme). Essentially, I find that if you can't get the early kill and if you stay even with him, Udyr becomes really intolerable (and this isn't later on or anything, lvl 4 or soit's really obnoxious).
Now I imagine most people here are good and won't still be dying to him under tower if they face this match-up, but does anyone have any input on how you should play the match-up?
Take my advice with a grain of salt since I'm nowhere near Atrioc but vs Udyr, I always open boots which really helps kite him around. I wouldn't really trade kills with him since he probably will scale better with the gold. A nice thing about Udyr is that he's melee so any time he wants to last hit, you can spear him and sneak a quick auto attack in for nice harass. If he every tries to engage on you, your passive+stun can easily block two attacks from him and after you disengage, you can just spear him as he walks away. Level 4/5 is really your peak killing power in lane so as long as you have been trading relatively ok, he shouldn't be able to handle your all in. Also, I'm not sure what your mindset is but vs a lot of top laners, you have to play really really aggressive as hesitating vs anyone like Udyr could be the difference of his turtle stance coming back up or not.
Udyr falls into the category of champions that are/can build tanky without sacrificing usefulness, so yes, this is a tough lane for panth and a good example of why Panth top is somewhat niche/cheesy.
If Udyr specs defensively, starts cloth+5 and maxes turtle I would say that he can be a hard counter to panth. He just has to avoid trading early, even if this means zoning himself entirely from gold (not exp). Then, with a few levels in turtle, he can start to shield spears and sustain while bullying you and scaling harder.
You do have a window of opportunity though and this will be in the very early levels, where Udyr is deceivingly squishy. Throw spears as soon as you arrive in lane, and try to force an all-in before level 3 where Udyr's stance swapping starts to pick up (dorans blade start is good for this).
Panth vs Irelia plays out almost exactly the same in my experience, and the same could be said for a lot of tanky bruisers.
On July 07 2013 21:07 Potatisodlaren wrote: What's your thought on instead of going HP regen necklace you get 5 mana pots or 4 pots and an extra ward? I feel like that's a stronger opening a lot of the time, especially against armor/sustain champs like Cho. Unlimited mana for aggression and safe last-hitting with spears if you get camped. An extra ward to cover both sides of the lane to make aggression safer. It seems to me that 4 mana pots and an extra ward is simply superior to the necklace since Panth really need to win his lane more than he needs gold efficiency with the regen.
You mean like 5 health pots, 4 mana pots, and a ward? I can honestly say I've never tried it and I will definitely look into it. Generally if I was going to start that many consumables though, I would prefer a flask start to be a little more efficient. I think 4 mana pots might be too many (crazy as that sounds) and since the rejuv bead builds so cleanly into tiamat I hate to give it up so easily. What about rejuv bead + 4 health pots + 1 mana pot?
I mean that you get 5 health pots, 4 mana pots and 2 wards. 2 wards is really nice since Panth gets camped so often. The Flask start doesn't give you any wards, which is the crucial part. It's especially nice vs sustain champs like Cho. The mana pots you will use eventually although not always before the first back, so its fine I think. Getting the rejuv bead for Tiamat is really nice and efficient but Panth just wants to crush his lane, and mana pots helps him do that.
There is also the additional benefit of being able to cs with spears with the extra mana if you are getting camped, so it is both more safe and aggressive than rejuv opening. I also think that you will make more than 180g from being able to control the lane better with the extra mana when going this start, so the 180g for Tiamat rarely matters.
I used to play Panth mid after I saw wingsofdeath doing it, and yeah it wxas really strong, but I stopped playing him after the red pot nerf. I think I'm gonna give him another try
Well, 9-2-3, we had a good top and jungler but it was cool. I've rushed bruta and last whisper, but I do feel that all this arpen early is a bit of overkill, isn't it better to build bruta (or maybe black cleaver but it's expensive) then to rush BT for a huge spike of damage ? (I was using Achilles' style)
On July 08 2013 15:47 Dark_Chill wrote: Okay, noob question here after reading the guide. At six and onwards, what are you supposed to do vs Zed? It feels as though he can afford to build defensively and still deal tons of damage, something I find Panth can't really do. It's not even like zoning him is easy, as he can still cs from a distance (unless I'm playing badly, but I really feel as though there really isn't anything I can do). The other problem is that Zed is a lot more difficult to gank as well. You have to be constantly worrying but can be pretty safe while making you his bitch. Also, I recently had the joy of facing tiger udyr top. He took pretty much all of the creep agro, I took barely any, and we killed each other. Then from there, he beat me up terribly. He could dive me and still end up with a kill (though I killed him too) by like level 3/4. Then I learned that Tiger stance deals this weird damage where you get hurt after getting hit (delayed damage I guess) and wasted a flash. I suppose the point of this story is that Udyr, while I may be too low level to say this, could be a tough lane for panth.
His movement speed and bear makes it actually not too hard to get to Panth and "force" him to fight. Tiger will make it so that even if you stay and fight, you will lose out hard unless you get into a good position. If you can't force him into a bad position early on, turtle starts letting him slowly ignore your harass (and with a couple of mana pots from Udyr, he can keep this up pretty easily). His gank assist I find is similar to Panth's, but it's also a lot harder to gank Udyr than it is Panth (recurring theme). Essentially, I find that if you can't get the early kill and if you stay even with him, Udyr becomes really intolerable (and this isn't later on or anything, lvl 4 or soit's really obnoxious).
Now I imagine most people here are good and won't still be dying to him under tower if they face this match-up, but does anyone have any input on how you should play the match-up?
Well stuff like lane Udyr is kinda why Pantheon has a much easier time mid now. There are some champs that can get tanky much faster than you can keep up in damage and/or can build tanky and still be extremely useful.
Should I be running 14/16/0 or 21/9/0 in matchups vs Fizz mid? And how should I open?
I just tried the pots + 14/16 opening and lost cuz i didnt flash to kill him on the lv 2 all in when i pushed wave. His jungler showed up and i didn't go b then eventually he just started all-in trading with me while his wave pushed.
Frustrating game: WHat do you build vs. a Hecarim, Vayne, Lux, Riven, Thresh team? I just feel like I got roflstomped in every teamfight. Is this an example of a team that I should just build hydra vs and splitpush? I built Muramana, Black cleaver, Ninja Tabi, Bloodthirster, hexdrinker, GA.
Riven destroyed me and vayne mid-lategame destroys everyone.
On July 10 2013 09:43 Advocado wrote: Frustrating game: WHat do you build vs. a Hecarim, Vayne, Lux, Riven, Thresh team? I just feel like I got roflstomped in every teamfight. Is this an example of a team that I should just build hydra vs and splitpush? I built Muramana, Black cleaver, Ninja Tabi, Bloodthirster, hexdrinker, GA.
Riven destroyed me and vayne mid-lategame destroys everyone.
I suggest ignoring riven until very last. Her dashes are short and predictable. Best scenario, let riven to have early tower and go roaming. Pantheon>>>Riven at early/mid-game ganks. Most likely Riven will be pushing her lane until the inhibitor while her team is dying and losing dragons and turrets.
New Video added of me playing Pantheon on my Gold-Level Smurf! Full Diamond 1 FPVOD with commentary is still coming, but I wanted to get some of these replays uploaded ASAP before the new patch makes them unviewable without bug splatting.
Showing how Pantheon can be used to absolutely take control over a gold level game when played aggressively. Some key moments:
- Early game hyper aggression at level 1 to gain dominance of the lane and force him to pop his red pot far earlier than he would want.
- Snowball that lane lead into the ability to roam to my jungle and stop the invade without him being able to follow safely (HUGELY important, this shows how pressure can lead to more pressure which can lead to huge game losing mistakes by your opponents).
- By 5 minutes I have double buff, 2 kills, have drawn massive jungler attention to give my other lanes breathing room, and have crippled my lane opponent - THIS is how you want to be playing as Pantheon.
- As top lane Pantheon, I use my jump on my lane opponent a lot more than usual because its so hard to effectively roam bottom lane without losing your tower. At 6 you can see me take down Lee Sin by suprising him with a jump from the brush.
- By 10 minutes I have 3x my lane opponent's CS and have at least allowed my other lanes to go even by dragging so much jungler pressure.
- At around 12 minutes I kill Lee Sin again by using my jump - the key thing about this is that it eliminates his ability to counterplay me by giving me the first move. Since I am able to use my "W" while falling from the sky, he is stunned and taking damage before he has any ability to react or escape.
- I now feel that Lee has died enough and that spending too much more time on him is wasting the huge power spike I'm currently in because of how little gold he is worth. I start roaming to keep pressure throughout the map.
- At 17 minutes I make good use of map awareness to see that Lee Sin has just shut down Zac in the top lane but was left fairly low and manage to get the jump on him yet again.
- By 20 minutes, they surrender. A solid, clean, Pantheon-esque victory. Not every game will turn out like this, but I swear this is not something I cherry-picked - any Pantheon game I play at this elo will almost always go similarly smooth because of how aggressive I am able to be to get the snowball rolling and keep morale high on my team.
On July 10 2013 04:04 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Should I be running 14/16/0 or 21/9/0 in matchups vs Fizz mid? And how should I open?
I just tried the pots + 14/16 opening and lost cuz i didnt flash to kill him on the lv 2 all in when i pushed wave. His jungler showed up and i didn't go b then eventually he just started all-in trading with me while his wave pushed.
14/16 opening is best vs. a mid laner that has some annoying pre-6 CC - Syndra, Lux, Annie, etc. It makes you a lot less vulnerable to both their auto attacks and stuns.
I would definitely go 21/9/ vs. an all-in, no-CC type caster like Fizz. You can start red pot, or flask (I'd prefer flask) and start bullying him right from the beginning with spears while trying to keep the wave in the center of the lane or slightly pushing towards you. He has no ranged harass, loses a good chunk of his damage in small trades because of your passive, and is hugely mana inefficient in attempting to use his "E" to dodge anything of yours.
Also never be afraid to all in with Flash at level 1 or 2 if you think it has a real shot at getting a kill or crippling them in lane (see video above!) - no jungler is going to gank you until they hit level 3 with double buffs, which should definitely not have happened yet assuming normal leveling speed from you.
Obviously be wary though, because once youve blown your flash (especially if you didnt kill the opposing laner) you are guaranteed to now be the first place the jungler is going to go once they do finish that 2nd buff - great opportunity to set up a countergank or simply play safe and waste his time.
On July 09 2013 15:38 zodde wrote: In what situations (if any) would it be better to max q before starting to max e? Never tried maxing e on panth, will be fu to try out.
Great guide!
I max Q up to Rank 3 in almost every lane, then generally switch to maxing "E" so it is maxed out by lvl 10. Maxing "E" straightaway can be good in matchups against pure melee characters and you will definitely feel the extra damage, but spear is such a valuable ranged harass tool in lane that I think its definitely better in the majority of situations.
On July 10 2013 09:43 Advocado wrote: Frustrating game: WHat do you build vs. a Hecarim, Vayne, Lux, Riven, Thresh team? I just feel like I got roflstomped in every teamfight. Is this an example of a team that I should just build hydra vs and splitpush? I built Muramana, Black cleaver, Ninja Tabi, Bloodthirster, hexdrinker, GA.
Riven destroyed me and vayne mid-lategame destroys everyone.
Hecarim is one of my absolute nightmares to see on the other team when I pick Pantheon - he is such a stupid tanky unkillable monster in teamfights (as Panth) that him alone is generally cause for me to stick to split pushing/hydra.
Thresh is also super annoying, Vayne is one of the hardest AD carries to pin down as Pantheon (you really love to see someone like Draven, Quinn, Ashe, etc.), and Riven really gives Pantheon a hard time after 6, so I would definitely say you probably were at a pretty hard uphill climb in this game right from champion select.
If I understand right, you were laning against Riven - if possible you would really want to be agianst the Lux, who is a great lane for Pantheon to start exerting his dominance in. You can beat Riven in lane pre-6 by going real agressive early and taking advantage of your passive (preferably even starting with a fort pot), but after 6 its very difficult without an advantage and she will often start something like cloth-5 and negate your spear harass with "E" in order to get there.
Anyway my full advice if you HAD to play vs. that comp in that lane would definitely be to get a hydra ASAP and keep dragging someone's attention away so you can jump in and try force 5v4s.
On July 10 2013 14:35 Atrioc wrote: I max Q up to Rank 3 in almost every lane, then generally switch to maxing "E" so it is maxed out by lvl 10. Maxing "E" straightaway can be good in matchups against pure melee characters and you will definitely feel the extra damage, but spear is such a valuable ranged harass tool in lane that I think its definitely better in the majority of situations.
So you say that maxing Q before E against ranged opponents is better ? I used to do that before fort pot got nerfed, I think it gives a way more powerful harass and you don't have to commit that much to deal dmg (like if you max E and have to jump on them to use it)
On July 10 2013 14:35 Atrioc wrote: I max Q up to Rank 3 in almost every lane, then generally switch to maxing "E" so it is maxed out by lvl 10. Maxing "E" straightaway can be good in matchups against pure melee characters and you will definitely feel the extra damage, but spear is such a valuable ranged harass tool in lane that I think its definitely better in the majority of situations.
So you say that maxing Q before E against ranged opponents is better ? I used to do that before fort pot got nerfed, I think it gives a way more powerful harass and you don't have to commit that much to deal dmg (like if you max E and have to jump on them to use it)
The idea behind keeping Q at 3 and maxing E first is because E's by far the stronger teamfight/skirmish skill. If you stop putting levels in Q at 3 then max E you get max E at level 10, which is about when skirmishes and fights over objectives tend to start. If you max Q first, you still do decent damage, but you don't get max E until much later, which can hurt you impact on the game.
On July 10 2013 14:35 Atrioc wrote: I max Q up to Rank 3 in almost every lane, then generally switch to maxing "E" so it is maxed out by lvl 10. Maxing "E" straightaway can be good in matchups against pure melee characters and you will definitely feel the extra damage, but spear is such a valuable ranged harass tool in lane that I think its definitely better in the majority of situations.
So you say that maxing Q before E against ranged opponents is better ? I used to do that before fort pot got nerfed, I think it gives a way more powerful harass and you don't have to commit that much to deal dmg (like if you max E and have to jump on them to use it)
The idea behind keeping Q at 3 and maxing E first is because E's by far the stronger teamfight/skirmish skill. If you stop putting levels in Q at 3 then max E you get max E at level 10, which is about when skirmishes and fights over objectives tend to start. If you max Q first, you still do decent damage, but you don't get max E until much later, which can hurt you impact on the game.
Well I'm much more a duellist instead of a teamfighter (I've always said it, this probably is my strongest skill, but also my weakest. But hey, when your mates are usually retarded, better try to snowball alone, right ?), which is why usually my mindset is "crush this guy so hard so the game turns into a 5v4". I don't like playing too passive because I'm building towards teamfighting phase. That's also probably why all my mains are assassins (Zed, Kha'Zix -he's weird to play since his nerf-, Pantheon, Fiora, Syndra,...), or in general, champs that can deny your opponent extremely hard (Yorick might be the best for that).
I've played the full arpen build few times, and the Perseus build as well (tear=>bruta=>bt), and I feel that with Perseus you're not allowed to make any mistake in early game because his damage spike comes really late (until you grab manamune when you're tear is at about 500), so if you're denied, you're just useless, while you can still explode botlane with full arpen build. Yesterday I played with Perseus vs a Galio (he fucked me hard once he got Seeker's Armguard), and got camped by Hecarim early, and Hecarim+Darius+Galio midgame, at one point I was at 2-8 iirc. I had to afk farm to have a decent build to bring utility to my team. Imo they camped me because the 2 times Heca ganked top to help Darius, our Garen grabbed a double kill each time, so they just gave up the lane. And I don't remember how botlane was doing, probably average (well, their Varus was quite fed at some point, so I decided to sacrifice myself every teamfight by ulting on him and stunning him so my team can instagib him). I guess at this point I was the stunner of the team instead of the assassin. I also couldn't ult constantly bot because everytime I wanted to, my botlane was pushing. And when they weren't I was ganked, so... But so far that's the only game I lost, I hardcarried a ranked by getting fed early, then I managed to give kills to both bot and toplane with timed ults so we all snowballed at the end
Btw, what software did you used to make this video ?
Full Diamond 1 Game with Commentary! Here is a full recent game I played at Diamond 1 (around 50lp) complete with commentary on all my decisions/thought process: Part 1:
From my history : 17-7-11 3-10-7 (got camped really hard by Hecarim, then by Hecarim+Darius, and bot was too pushed when I had the occasion to ult there) 13-4-11 9-5-10 (got flamed because I called, picked and locked before the other actually asked for mid -normal game-, where he wanted to run clairvoyance/flash with Nida, wtf. I ended up being fed, and gave 2 kills to top and 3 or 4 to my adc, from there we snowballed hard and they gave me honor haha)
I'm in promotion series now, I guess I'll try to go Pantheon the 3 games
After the Tear of The Goddess nerf, stacking slower now, would you still prioritize buying it for pantheon? Does the mana regen it provides, supply enough value for it, so it is worth buying? What are your thoughts ?
Also, Amazing guide! Playing with Perseus Pantheon skin while listening to 300 and God of War music, I have never had more fun playing this game! Thanks for the amazing introduction to pantheon!
Thanks for your videos, but it's hard to rely on 2 kills before 6 minutes to crush your lane like that. After you came back with tear AND 2 longswords, and Ryze only had tear, the lane was over, so the rest of the video wasn't as interesting.
Eve, being fairly dumb, ganked when Ryze was level 1 instead of getting red to hit 3 and/or waiting for Ryze to get 2 more creeps for level 2. Would you have backed off when Ryze is about to hit 2 in order to avoid that? When do you start chucking spears again? Eve at 3 + Ryze at 3 has very high kill potential.
You killed Ryze with Zac's help when Eve wasn't in position to countergank. How would you have handled lane if 1) you didn't get FB gold, and 2) didn't get a kill there? You both would have came back to lane with a tear about even, and had no pink ward for Eve.
On July 12 2013 03:34 daredpanda wrote: how would you lane vs a Oriana? I find that she zones me out alot!!!
some of the safer ap carries like orianna/liss etc. are hard to play against as any melee assassin if they get some good gank assist at early levels because for them it's easy and safe to poke you while you draw creep aggro and have to be generally closer to win trades. this is the very general dynamic of the safe ap carry vs risky assassin midlane matchup and panth is one of the most aggressive/risky types who has to ward a ton if he want to straight up beat his lane. a khaziks for example has 2 escapes and a better poking ability than panth but doesnt have the stun hs combo and global presence. the bottom line is ward constantly and be brave.
This is so damn nice. Props to you. Too bad it had to be a guide on mid lane Pantheon. Something that is against my views.
AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC. Additionally, picking AD for your mid makes it so that your entire team is AD unless your top specifically picks AP top. Furthermore, I don't like champs don't scale well into late game. If you get high kill count, you take kills away from your team because you're useless late game. If you don't get a high kill count, you're not doing your job very well and will not have the gold to fully utilize your damage orientated build.
Anyway, Pantheon mid, I don't like/agree with, but your guide is beautiful.
On July 12 2013 21:59 GhostOwl wrote: This is so damn nice. Props to you. Too bad it had to be a guide on mid lane Pantheon. Something that is against my views.
AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC. Additionally, picking AD for your mid makes it so that your entire team is AD unless your top specifically picks AP top. Furthermore, I don't like champs don't scale well into late game. If you get high kill count, you take kills away from your team because you're useless late game. If you don't get a high kill count, you're not doing your job very well and will not have the gold to fully utilize your damage orientated build.
Anyway, Pantheon mid, I don't like/agree with, but your guide is beautiful.
against your views? lol its like you're defending the bible. lots of profesional teams have ad assassins mid sometimes so I guess others views are changing. this guide helps a lot with panth in general not just in mid.
there are basicly countless teamcomps with enough magical damage with panth mid that warrant at least basic mr like mercs and an aegis. also there is much more to a teamcomp than just having an even mix of magical and physical damage sources.
also the midlane is not about having a magical damage source. its about roaming and midgame control or denying of either. the downside about panth mid isnt even his damage type but his weak waveclearing, which makes him sometimes very jungler dependand. apart from that he has everything a midlaner needs while doing some things exceptionally well: burst, mobility, area control and cc.
Also read the guide more carefully. Atrioc allready said everything that needs to be said about KDA and adresses exactly your concerns.
Also, I honestly don't think it's 100% necessary to have magic damage on your team. It certainly can make things easier, but with how strong Black Cleaver and LW are, I honestly think it's not too terrible if your team doesn't have a dedicated magic damage dealer so long as the other team doesn't have Malphite.
On July 12 2013 21:59 GhostOwl wrote: AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC.
Also, wtf does that even mean? Singed/Elise are amazing at getting to the enemy backline and picking them off...
On July 12 2013 21:59 GhostOwl wrote: This is so damn nice. Props to you. Too bad it had to be a guide on mid lane Pantheon. Something that is against my views.
AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC. Additionally, picking AD for your mid makes it so that your entire team is AD unless your top specifically picks AP top. Furthermore, I don't like champs don't scale well into late game. If you get high kill count, you take kills away from your team because you're useless late game. If you don't get a high kill count, you're not doing your job very well and will not have the gold to fully utilize your damage orientated build.
Anyway, Pantheon mid, I don't like/agree with, but your guide is beautiful.
You realise that most AP mid champions also can't sneak in and pick off the enemy ADC...? If anything, Singed is better than the vast majority of mid AP champions at doing so. Also, you can have an AP jungle.
On July 12 2013 21:59 GhostOwl wrote: This is so damn nice. Props to you. Too bad it had to be a guide on mid lane Pantheon. Something that is against my views.
AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC. Additionally, picking AD for your mid makes it so that your entire team is AD unless your top specifically picks AP top. Furthermore, I don't like champs don't scale well into late game. If you get high kill count, you take kills away from your team because you're useless late game. If you don't get a high kill count, you're not doing your job very well and will not have the gold to fully utilize your damage orientated build.
Anyway, Pantheon mid, I don't like/agree with, but your guide is beautiful.
Yes you can't possibly put a AP top ( akali, rumble elise so on and so forth) and a AP jungle (fidd, elise, amu, diana.. so on. no teams do that.
I have also seen creative teams put a ap bot wiht the support. So yes you can do things sligtly diff then the meta, and AD mid isactually becoming pretty common in this meta.
Next time, read my full post carefully before you quote and make yourself look dumb. I said you CAN put AP top but most are bruisers. And AP jungle is pretty rare compared to AD jungle. AP supports don't get full damage build, and if they do, it takes them too long and won't be relevant until late late game.
On July 12 2013 21:59 GhostOwl wrote: This is so damn nice. Props to you. Too bad it had to be a guide on mid lane Pantheon. Something that is against my views.
AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC. Additionally, picking AD for your mid makes it so that your entire team is AD unless your top specifically picks AP top. Furthermore, I don't like champs don't scale well into late game. If you get high kill count, you take kills away from your team because you're useless late game. If you don't get a high kill count, you're not doing your job very well and will not have the gold to fully utilize your damage orientated build.
Anyway, Pantheon mid, I don't like/agree with, but your guide is beautiful.
You realise that most AP mid champions also can't sneak in and pick off the enemy ADC...? If anything, Singed is better than the vast majority of mid AP champions at doing so. Also, you can have an AP jungle.
Yes but lots of AP mid champs that are mages like Kassadin, Lux, Brand have range and blink that allow them to reach the protected ADC much easier than bruisers like Elise and Singed.
On July 12 2013 21:59 GhostOwl wrote: This is so damn nice. Props to you. Too bad it had to be a guide on mid lane Pantheon. Something that is against my views.
AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC. Additionally, picking AD for your mid makes it so that your entire team is AD unless your top specifically picks AP top. Furthermore, I don't like champs don't scale well into late game. If you get high kill count, you take kills away from your team because you're useless late game. If you don't get a high kill count, you're not doing your job very well and will not have the gold to fully utilize your damage orientated build.
Anyway, Pantheon mid, I don't like/agree with, but your guide is beautiful.
Yes you can't possibly put a AP top ( akali, rumble elise so on and so forth) and a AP jungle (fidd, elise, amu, diana.. so on. no teams do that.
I have also seen creative teams put a ap bot wiht the support. So yes you can do things sligtly diff then the meta, and AD mid isactually becoming pretty common in this meta.
Next time, read my full post carefully before you quote and make yourself look dumb. I said you CAN put AP top but most are bruisers. And AP jungle is pretty rare compared to AD jungle. AP supports don't get full damage build, and if they do, it takes them too long and won't be relevant until late late game.
On July 12 2013 21:59 GhostOwl wrote: This is so damn nice. Props to you. Too bad it had to be a guide on mid lane Pantheon. Something that is against my views.
AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC. Additionally, picking AD for your mid makes it so that your entire team is AD unless your top specifically picks AP top. Furthermore, I don't like champs don't scale well into late game. If you get high kill count, you take kills away from your team because you're useless late game. If you don't get a high kill count, you're not doing your job very well and will not have the gold to fully utilize your damage orientated build.
Anyway, Pantheon mid, I don't like/agree with, but your guide is beautiful.
You realise that most AP mid champions also can't sneak in and pick off the enemy ADC...? If anything, Singed is better than the vast majority of mid AP champions at doing so. Also, you can have an AP jungle.
Yes but lots of AP mid champs that are mages like Kassadin, Lux, Brand have range and blink that allow them to reach the protected ADC much easier than bruisers like Elise and Singed.
And AP jungle is much rarer than AD jungle.
How is AP jungle rare when jungle Elise and Naut are practically FotM right now? (Also jungle Nunu but he's banned almost all the time)
There's just a bunch of AP mid champs that don't care about getting to the back line that are commonly played. For example, Anivia and Ryze don't really care about getting to the back line and they're picked up quite often. I'd argue that TF also probably doesn't care about diving either although he can. Then you also have a ton of AD mids that have equal or stronger diving capabilities like Zed and Kha'zix.
I also really really disagree with your assessment that it's easier for AP mids to get to the backline than bruisers. Half of the time bruisers are supposed to be harassing the backline in teamfights. It's entirely why some bruisers are better than others; because they can reach the backline better than others. Also, saying Elise has a hard time diving is just silly. If you can't get to the enemy back line with your Rappel then the enemy back line is probably too far away from the fight to be a threat.
Solo mid Panth has its weaknesses; no one is going to argue against that. But being AD is not one of them.
On July 12 2013 21:59 GhostOwl wrote: This is so damn nice. Props to you. Too bad it had to be a guide on mid lane Pantheon. Something that is against my views.
AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC. Additionally, picking AD for your mid makes it so that your entire team is AD unless your top specifically picks AP top. Furthermore, I don't like champs don't scale well into late game. If you get high kill count, you take kills away from your team because you're useless late game. If you don't get a high kill count, you're not doing your job very well and will not have the gold to fully utilize your damage orientated build.
Anyway, Pantheon mid, I don't like/agree with, but your guide is beautiful.
Yes you can't possibly put a AP top ( akali, rumble elise so on and so forth) and a AP jungle (fidd, elise, amu, diana.. so on. no teams do that.
I have also seen creative teams put a ap bot wiht the support. So yes you can do things sligtly diff then the meta, and AD mid isactually becoming pretty common in this meta.
Next time, read my full post carefully before you quote and make yourself look dumb. I said you CAN put AP top but most are bruisers. And AP jungle is pretty rare compared to AD jungle. AP supports don't get full damage build, and if they do, it takes them too long and won't be relevant until late late game.
On July 12 2013 21:59 GhostOwl wrote: This is so damn nice. Props to you. Too bad it had to be a guide on mid lane Pantheon. Something that is against my views.
AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC. Additionally, picking AD for your mid makes it so that your entire team is AD unless your top specifically picks AP top. Furthermore, I don't like champs don't scale well into late game. If you get high kill count, you take kills away from your team because you're useless late game. If you don't get a high kill count, you're not doing your job very well and will not have the gold to fully utilize your damage orientated build.
Anyway, Pantheon mid, I don't like/agree with, but your guide is beautiful.
You realise that most AP mid champions also can't sneak in and pick off the enemy ADC...? If anything, Singed is better than the vast majority of mid AP champions at doing so. Also, you can have an AP jungle.
Yes but lots of AP mid champs that are mages like Kassadin, Lux, Brand have range and blink that allow them to reach the protected ADC much easier than bruisers like Elise and Singed.
And AP jungle is much rarer than AD jungle.
So mid champions like Ryze, Orianna, Malzahar, Cass, Morgana, etc, are just bad champions solely because they can't reach the enemy ADC as well as some...? Also, how do Lux and Brand reach the enemy ADC easier than Singed or Elise? Sure, Lux can poke them or possibly execute with her ult, but it's not like she's in their face doing significant damage to them most of the time. On the other hand, Singed can simply charge at them in the fight, and Elise can use rappel to reach them.
On July 12 2013 21:59 GhostOwl wrote: This is so damn nice. Props to you. Too bad it had to be a guide on mid lane Pantheon. Something that is against my views.
AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC. Additionally, picking AD for your mid makes it so that your entire team is AD unless your top specifically picks AP top. Furthermore, I don't like champs don't scale well into late game. If you get high kill count, you take kills away from your team because you're useless late game. If you don't get a high kill count, you're not doing your job very well and will not have the gold to fully utilize your damage orientated build.
Anyway, Pantheon mid, I don't like/agree with, but your guide is beautiful.
Yes you can't possibly put a AP top ( akali, rumble elise so on and so forth) and a AP jungle (fidd, elise, amu, diana.. so on. no teams do that.
I have also seen creative teams put a ap bot wiht the support. So yes you can do things sligtly diff then the meta, and AD mid isactually becoming pretty common in this meta.
Next time, read my full post carefully before you quote and make yourself look dumb. I said you CAN put AP top but most are bruisers. And AP jungle is pretty rare compared to AD jungle. AP supports don't get full damage build, and if they do, it takes them too long and won't be relevant until late late game.
On July 13 2013 09:19 GolemMadness wrote:
On July 12 2013 21:59 GhostOwl wrote: This is so damn nice. Props to you. Too bad it had to be a guide on mid lane Pantheon. Something that is against my views.
AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC. Additionally, picking AD for your mid makes it so that your entire team is AD unless your top specifically picks AP top. Furthermore, I don't like champs don't scale well into late game. If you get high kill count, you take kills away from your team because you're useless late game. If you don't get a high kill count, you're not doing your job very well and will not have the gold to fully utilize your damage orientated build.
Anyway, Pantheon mid, I don't like/agree with, but your guide is beautiful.
You realise that most AP mid champions also can't sneak in and pick off the enemy ADC...? If anything, Singed is better than the vast majority of mid AP champions at doing so. Also, you can have an AP jungle.
Yes but lots of AP mid champs that are mages like Kassadin, Lux, Brand have range and blink that allow them to reach the protected ADC much easier than bruisers like Elise and Singed.
And AP jungle is much rarer than AD jungle.
So mid champions like Ryze, Orianna, Malzahar, Cass, Morgana, etc, are just bad champions solely because they can't reach the enemy ADC as well as some...? Also, how do Lux and Brand reach the enemy ADC easier than Singed or Elise? Sure, Lux can poke them or possibly execute with her ult, but it's not like she's in their face doing significant damage to them most of the time. On the other hand, Singed can simply charge at them in the fight, and Elise can use rappel to reach them.
Imagine ADC in the backline, protected by his teammates. If you use Rappel to reach the enemy ADC, his teammates are gonna pummel you before you can even get a full combo out. Even if you did manage to kill one enemy, you can't get out because you just used your rappel. Same with Singed, he can reach the enemy adc but he's tanky so he can take the beating. But he can't necessarily assassinate the ADC, he can get them a bit closer to your team by flinging them. Imagine ranged AP mids like Brand or Lux. They can execute their full combo without getting too close to the other teammates.
Many AP champs are good at burst rather than sustained damage (exceptions can be made to champs like Vlad, Swain, etc) That burst is what kills the enemy ADC because his teammates cannot react in time AND burst is better since ADC has good lifesteal. Sure, some AD champs have that burst like Kha'zix but most AD champs that have that burst don't have the range like most AP mages do. So in essence, you can't survive long enough to be useful because you're not a tank.
I never said champs like Ryze, Ori, Cass, Malz, Morg are bad. They can be good with the right team compositions. I prefer them over Pantheon mid, is all I said.
TLDR version : AP mid mages are better than AD mids because they have the range AND the burst (usually) to kill the enemy ADC. Some exceptions can be made to champs like Swain / Vlad but they have their roles with the right team composition.
I think you're being WAY too narrow minded about what valid mids are and what they need to bring to a team. Mid Pantheon fills a role somewhere partway between Mid Zed and Mid TF.
Also even Lux's full burst combo is nowhere near the damage that an assassin like Elise, Zed, Pantheon can lay onto someone. She runs out of cooldowns, but when autoattacks are a valid time-filler, you never really run out of damage.
If you play Elise, you understand that there's a right and a wrong time to rappel onto the enemy ADC and go for an assassinate on them, so don't even bother describing the situation where it's clearly the wrong time to rappel onto the enemy ADC, because the situation you describe is basically initiating a teamfight with rappel.
You don't even necessarily need someone on the team who "has the job of blowing up the adc" if you can rip through their front line proficiently.
Oh god, I remember that blog. As much as I would think it's kind of unfair to attack someone's character like this (and it's unrelated to the thread) GhostOwl does seem like a very...'controversial' personality so maybe it's best to take his posting with a grain of salt.
Oh god, I remember that blog. As much as I would think it's kind of unfair to attack someone's character like this (and it's unrelated to the thread) GhostOwl does seem like a very...'controversial' personality so maybe it's best to take his posting with a grain of salt.
I wouldn't say I'm attacking him, I'm just pointing out that GhostOwl may not be someone who is easily swayed in his opinions, and therefore saving this thread from falling into a weird tangent discussion. I think a huge portion of the appeal of TL LoL is how much we emphasize people as members of a community and not just anonymous names.
New Diamond 1 Pantheon Game with Commentary! Got hungry for some more D1 Pantheon VOD's, so I threw all my advice on drafting out the window and just first picked him blind. This game is vs. Katarina and showcases the splitpush style of Pantheon and how effective it can be in forcing the opponent to make a mistake. Part 1:
On July 12 2013 00:55 Sandster wrote: Thanks for your videos, but it's hard to rely on 2 kills before 6 minutes to crush your lane like that. After you came back with tear AND 2 longswords, and Ryze only had tear, the lane was over, so the rest of the video wasn't as interesting.
Eve, being fairly dumb, ganked when Ryze was level 1 instead of getting red to hit 3 and/or waiting for Ryze to get 2 more creeps for level 2. Would you have backed off when Ryze is about to hit 2 in order to avoid that? When do you start chucking spears again? Eve at 3 + Ryze at 3 has very high kill potential.
You killed Ryze with Zac's help when Eve wasn't in position to countergank. How would you have handled lane if 1) you didn't get FB gold, and 2) didn't get a kill there? You both would have came back to lane with a tear about even, and had no pink ward for Eve.
I hope the above video helps a bit in showing some different situations!
As to the questions, for 1) the FB gold did not help me in lane at all since I wasn't able to back after getting it - in fact, it really hurt me since I had no flash or ignite to be aggressive with in the early levels and drew early jungler attention. It wasnt able to kick in until after I got another kill on my lane opponent, so all it did was enhance my snowball. If I hadn't got the FB on Varus the entire lane would have been different because of how much threat I could put out starting at level 2.
2) I would never be afraid of a blue Eve level 2 gank (she actually came twice, once when ryze DID have W and it didnt change anything). If everything had gone completely standard then around when Ryze is turning level 3 and I know that Eve would be done with her red I will play passively until the very second I see Eve show up in some other lane then go agressive again. Theres no situation I dont see myself having a gold advantage of some sort on teleport Ryze for our respective first backs
Forgive me if I"m way off base - but with the tone of the questions I get the vibe that you are essentially saying "you wouldn't have done as good if the enemy played better", which is pretty self-explanatory. The closer they get to perfect play the less I have to work with, but I don't think that's the right way to think about it for solo queue. They will make mistakes - a billion of them - and your job is to find them.
On July 12 2013 03:34 daredpanda wrote: how would you lane vs a Oriana? I find that she zones me out alot!!!
Clickrush had a great response and the key words from it were: "Be Brave" - you have to assert yourself pretty early on in this lane and make EXCELLENT use of your passive since her damage is like entirely auto attacks early. By pressuring her heavily early you force her to make tough choices like how to itemize for armor (which you are pressuring her into) and mana (which orianna desperately needs) at the same time. If she comes back with a chalice and you come back with something like a dblade + long sword theres just no way she can compete.
On July 15 2013 13:07 LoCicero wrote: Beautiful write-up bud. I am honored to be mentioned. Glad you're having fun with him. =)
Also, you might want to mention Yorick as someone that will dominate him in lane. Other than that, looks good to me!
On July 15 2013 16:28 Atrioc wrote: New Diamond 1 Pantheon Game with Commentary! Got hungry for some more D1 Pantheon VOD's, so I threw all my advice on drafting out the window and just first picked him blind. This game is vs. Katarina and showcases the splitpush style of Pantheon and how effective it can be in forcing the opponent to make a mistake. Part 1:
On July 12 2013 00:55 Sandster wrote: Thanks for your videos, but it's hard to rely on 2 kills before 6 minutes to crush your lane like that. After you came back with tear AND 2 longswords, and Ryze only had tear, the lane was over, so the rest of the video wasn't as interesting.
Eve, being fairly dumb, ganked when Ryze was level 1 instead of getting red to hit 3 and/or waiting for Ryze to get 2 more creeps for level 2. Would you have backed off when Ryze is about to hit 2 in order to avoid that? When do you start chucking spears again? Eve at 3 + Ryze at 3 has very high kill potential.
You killed Ryze with Zac's help when Eve wasn't in position to countergank. How would you have handled lane if 1) you didn't get FB gold, and 2) didn't get a kill there? You both would have came back to lane with a tear about even, and had no pink ward for Eve.
I hope the above video helps a bit in showing some different situations!
As to the questions, for 1) the FB gold did not help me in lane at all since I wasn't able to back after getting it - in fact, it really hurt me since I had no flash or ignite to be aggressive with in the early levels and drew early jungler attention. It wasnt able to kick in until after I got another kill on my lane opponent, so all it did was enhance my snowball. If I hadn't got the FB on Varus the entire lane would have been different because of how much threat I could put out starting at level 2.
2) I would never be afraid of a blue Eve level 2 gank (she actually came twice, once when ryze DID have W and it didnt change anything). If everything had gone completely standard then around when Ryze is turning level 3 and I know that Eve would be done with her red I will play passively until the very second I see Eve show up in some other lane then go agressive again. Theres no situation I dont see myself having a gold advantage of some sort on teleport Ryze for our respective first backs
Forgive me if I"m way off base - but with the tone of the questions I get the vibe that you are essentially saying "you wouldn't have done as good if the enemy played better", which is pretty self-explanatory. The closer they get to perfect play the less I have to work with, but I don't think that's the right way to think about it for solo queue. They will make mistakes - a billion of them - and your job is to find them.
Thanks for your response. And no I'm not saying that at all - I (and many Pantheons I see) struggle because it's so tricky balancing aggression without overextending, and against an opponent that greatly outscales then sometimes get stuck in the "I HAVE to get advantage early or I'm screwed" mentality. Pantheon lanes are so crucial in the first ~5 levels that I'm always curious how you would handle various situations.
EDIT: Watching the video now, awesome to see how you handled (and explained) the level 3 potential gank.
Yeah, seriously fuck you for bringing that up. The first 2 links you brought up I can admit are my mistakes on my viewpoints but the third link, I did nothing wrong and Mani just attacked me and his fanboys just train-wrecked everything by blindly worshipping him, since as you can see other posters defending me about how I didn't do anything and I was just responding to him.
You claim - I don't change my viewpoint or whatnot, but tell me what was in the 3rd link that I did was wrong and had to "change my viewpoint"?
How would you like it if someone had no life and went to your search history and nitpicked your posts in the last few years? You're seriously scum.
Now that right there is one stellar posting history. How dare you people argue with such an upstanding paragon of the TL community.
Seriously though, this isn't even worth arguing over. He has nothing backing his arguments other than some poorly crafted thought experiments, whereas the pro-AD assassins side has the opinions of dozens of high level players and tons of top level games in which an AD assassin was played. Frankly, anyone who thinks their own personal opinion is more valuable than that of just about every pro in existence and almost everyone in this community is not worth arguing with.
I also never claimed AD mid WASN'T viable. I said that it does work with the right team compositions. I just said that I prefer AP mage mids over AD bruisers/assassins
It's unbelievable how people quote you and put words you never said in your mouth just because they failed to read everything they quoted.
I also never claimed AD mid WASN'T viable. I said that it does work with the right team compositions. I just said that I prefer AP mage mids over AD bruisers/assassins
It's unbelievable how people quote you and put words you never said in your mouth just because they failed to read everything they quoted.
On July 12 2013 21:59 GhostOwl wrote: This is so damn nice. Props to you. Too bad it had to be a guide on mid lane Pantheon. Something that is against my views.
AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC. Additionally, picking AD for your mid makes it so that your entire team is AD unless your top specifically picks AP top. Furthermore, I don't like champs don't scale well into late game. If you get high kill count, you take kills away from your team because you're useless late game. If you don't get a high kill count, you're not doing your job very well and will not have the gold to fully utilize your damage orientated build.
Anyway, Pantheon mid, I don't like/agree with, but your guide is beautiful.
Now you're straight up lying about what you have and haven't said.
AD mids are perfectly viable, at every level of play. Pantheon himself may not be completely viable in the top competitive play, but Atrioc goes IN DETAIL about the weaknesses of Pantheon and you are just bringing up really bad reasons why it's not a good choice. Other AD mids are VERY viable in competitive play (e.g. Zed, Jayce) and you really aren't contributing anything to this discussion by giving bad reasons why AD mids are bad.
Shit, even 5x AD teams are even completely viable, as long as you have sources of armor shred so you aren't running against the clock of enemy armor-stacking.
On July 15 2013 16:28 Atrioc wrote: Clickrush had a great response and the key words from it were: "Be Brave" - you have to assert yourself pretty early on in this lane and make EXCELLENT use of your passive since her damage is like entirely auto attacks early. By pressuring her heavily early you force her to make tough choices like how to itemize for armor (which you are pressuring her into) and mana (which orianna desperately needs) at the same time. If she comes back with a chalice and you come back with something like a dblade + long sword theres just no way she can compete.
I've only played like 3 panth games and just vsed an ori. Completely crushed her thanks to this advice. It's amazing what just saying fuck it and going deep does against people. She came back with a chalice and I came back with Dblade exactly as you said then turned into a feed fest.
My only real issue is do I still get a tear even if I get blue buff? It seems managable even without tear/blue if I don't spam waves constantly and just roam -> back -> push -> roam -> back.
I also never claimed AD mid WASN'T viable. I said that it does work with the right team compositions. I just said that I prefer AP mage mids over AD bruisers/assassins
It's unbelievable how people quote you and put words you never said in your mouth just because they failed to read everything they quoted.
On July 12 2013 21:59 GhostOwl wrote: This is so damn nice. Props to you. Too bad it had to be a guide on mid lane Pantheon. Something that is against my views.
AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC. Additionally, picking AD for your mid makes it so that your entire team is AD unless your top specifically picks AP top. Furthermore, I don't like champs don't scale well into late game. If you get high kill count, you take kills away from your team because you're useless late game. If you don't get a high kill count, you're not doing your job very well and will not have the gold to fully utilize your damage orientated build.
Anyway, Pantheon mid, I don't like/agree with, but your guide is beautiful.
Now you're straight up lying about what you have and haven't said.
AD mids are perfectly viable, at every level of play. Pantheon himself may not be completely viable in the top competitive play, but Atrioc goes IN DETAIL about the weaknesses of Pantheon and you are just bringing up really bad reasons why it's not a good choice. Other AD mids are VERY viable in competitive play (e.g. Zed, Jayce) and you really aren't contributing anything to this discussion by giving bad reasons why AD mids are bad.
Shit, even 5x AD teams are even completely viable, as long as you have sources of armor shred so you aren't running against the clock of enemy armor-stacking.
How am I lying? I said AD mids were against my views, and I preferred AP mids.I complained AP mids couldn't be picked, but that does not equal me saying AD mids aren't viable. I also said I didn't like it and gave reasons why but I never said it wasn't viable. There is nowhere in my post where I have said AD mid wasn't viable, I m sure it can be with the right team and gameplan. If I'm straight up lying about it, find where I said so. If you can't, stop talking
I made many mistakes in the lategame of jumping in with ultimate trying to force fights. I am more interested in my laning phase and what I could have done better there. I tried to keep the wave outside of my tower but I couldnt put a single dent in akali with a health regen bead?
I also never claimed AD mid WASN'T viable. I said that it does work with the right team compositions. I just said that I prefer AP mage mids over AD bruisers/assassins
It's unbelievable how people quote you and put words you never said in your mouth just because they failed to read everything they quoted.
On July 12 2013 21:59 GhostOwl wrote: This is so damn nice. Props to you. Too bad it had to be a guide on mid lane Pantheon. Something that is against my views.
AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC. Additionally, picking AD for your mid makes it so that your entire team is AD unless your top specifically picks AP top. Furthermore, I don't like champs don't scale well into late game. If you get high kill count, you take kills away from your team because you're useless late game. If you don't get a high kill count, you're not doing your job very well and will not have the gold to fully utilize your damage orientated build.
Anyway, Pantheon mid, I don't like/agree with, but your guide is beautiful.
Now you're straight up lying about what you have and haven't said.
AD mids are perfectly viable, at every level of play. Pantheon himself may not be completely viable in the top competitive play, but Atrioc goes IN DETAIL about the weaknesses of Pantheon and you are just bringing up really bad reasons why it's not a good choice. Other AD mids are VERY viable in competitive play (e.g. Zed, Jayce) and you really aren't contributing anything to this discussion by giving bad reasons why AD mids are bad.
Shit, even 5x AD teams are even completely viable, as long as you have sources of armor shred so you aren't running against the clock of enemy armor-stacking.
How am I lying? I said AD mids were against my views, and I preferred AP mids.I complained AP mids couldn't be picked, but that does not equal me saying AD mids aren't viable. I also said I didn't like it and gave reasons why but I never said it wasn't viable. There is nowhere in my post where I have said AD mid wasn't viable, I m sure it can be with the right team and gameplan. If I'm straight up lying about it, find where I said so. If you can't, stop talking
I don't give a fuck about your views. Especially since they're not about Pantheon. Can you shut the fuck up and stop posting shit in this beautiful thread?
I made many mistakes in the lategame of jumping in with ultimate trying to force fights. I am more interested in my laning phase and what I could have done better there. I tried to keep the wave outside of my tower but I couldnt put a single dent in akali with a health regen bead?
Looks like early game, there's several times that you are letting akali get in melee range of you but you're not autoing her. She should either A) never be allowed anywhere near picking up CS via anything but Q or B) getting meleed in the face whenever she tries. You're also missing a lot of early CS despite the fact that, for the MOST part, Akali is reduced to CSing with Q only. If she can only pick up half the CS because you're zoning her, but you're missing half the CS despite full control of the lane, you aren't really building any advantage out of zoning her.
Akali, esp with double rejuv bead, has a lot of sustain but almost no kill pressure pre-6. You need to be careful with your mana, but you also need to allin her a little more forcefully rather than try to slowly whittle her down with the occasional spear - you're letting her spellvamp do work by only harassing her with spears rather than being more forceful. If you can chunk her hard and make her too scared to Q creeps constantly, she loses a lot of her sustain and needs to blow multiple pots or just recall.
You also lost a lot off that failed amumu gank just from losing a bunch of health to it. It's the standard 3 minute timing that Atrioc talked about in his most recent video, but you still haven't placed your ward. Vlad even pinged it for you. Even if you only have 1 ward in mid, you can ward one side and play to that side. Place that starting ward before 3:00!
Your first jumpgank bot, it seemed clear that they had a clue it was coming before you started casting jump - they were already backing off to the turret (maybe they saw udyr in their bot jungle Maybe they saw you moving south out of mid lane?) so when amumu counterganked it was really bad for you guys. You blew flash and akali got to freefarm mid.
4 longswords and no doran blades, I'm not sure how I feel about that. I get that you want a brutalizer and couldnt afford at the time, but doran's....
You probably also want to buy a pink if you ever expect to be able to kill akali. Might have had a kill on her @ level 8 with one?
That's the best my amateur analysis skills can handle.
I made many mistakes in the lategame of jumping in with ultimate trying to force fights. I am more interested in my laning phase and what I could have done better there. I tried to keep the wave outside of my tower but I couldnt put a single dent in akali with a health regen bead?
Looks like early game, there's several times that you are letting akali get in melee range of you but you're not autoing her. She should either A) never be allowed anywhere near picking up CS via anything but Q or B) getting meleed in the face whenever she tries. You're also missing a lot of early CS despite the fact that, for the MOST part, Akali is reduced to CSing with Q only. If she can only pick up half the CS because you're zoning her, but you're missing half the CS despite full control of the lane, you aren't really building any advantage out of zoning her.
(...)
I want to emphasize how important it is to learn to auto at every occasion with panth in lane. Panth can straight up force a flash from a careless (mid) laners even from lvl 1-2 on just by walking up to them and autoing them. His kit allows him to tank 2 full autoattacks (which is freaking huge at early levels) and he will be able to throw 2 spears + mb a stun. It's really amazing how much stronger he is than most champions in that lvl range.
akalis damage is just staight up lower even if considered high at early levels as well. her double q is only a bit more than your spear but has a higher cd and is magical (bad at early levels), while your passive is like a universe better at that stage and your autos hurt more.
The panth vs akali matchup is kind of similar to panth vs diana though. You generally win pre 6 engagements but if you don't gain an advantage during that time you are in trouble. Because with such reliable and spammable high damage, high mobility ults they are able to outtrade you if you are not ahead and even then you gotta be carefull. It's easyer for you to harass them and you win short trades still but when they combo you with their ults you gotta be prepared to back off. Also Zonyas is pretty huge on these champions. In comparison diana is an overall stronger champ than akali because pinks, but there are lot's of ways to outplay her as well, mainly by baiting Qs and Shields. And that's kind of the cool thing about panth isnt it? You can allways do some smart aggressive move and straitght up kill someone with it. He is just so fast at punishing mistakes.
Thanks for the feedback on my game guys. It was a really bad game vs. a better player than me (im a plat jungler but think my mid is closer to bronze! :D)
I have been CRUSHING face with the toplane build. Granted I've gotten some kinda easier lane opponents in Xin Zhao and Kennen. Is it me or is the hexdrinker VERY situational in that it doesn't do as much for pantheon?
Yeah that shit's def old. Zhonya's Ring in there, newest champ I see is Kennen (though it could be coincidence). When I started Malz had just come out I think.
Hi, this guide is great but misses something essential : what is the best Pantheon skin ? Full metal Pantheon is on sale right now, should I buy it ? :p
I'm kinda bad and "lost" (went even) with a Ryze in lane just now. I started Fask 3pot, he started mana crystal. Should I have started Red Pot and just facerolled him?
Trading Q's was slightly favorable at level 1, and QW-AA-Q seemed to hurt a bit less than his combo (minions maybe) but I must have been doing something wrong to not be able to smash an early game ryze with only a mana crystal. He seemed to recover a ton of hp for only 2 pots, which kinda threw me off..
On July 19 2013 19:36 Lylat wrote: Hi, this guide is great but misses something essential : what is the best Pantheon skin ? Full metal Pantheon is on sale right now, should I buy it ? :p
best part about full metal is the art, in game its ugly as fuck imo.
On July 19 2013 19:36 Lylat wrote: Hi, this guide is great but misses something essential : what is the best Pantheon skin ? Full metal Pantheon is on sale right now, should I buy it ? :p
I actually asked this question in one of the earlier pages and he agreed with me that basically Perseus >> All
LoCicero gets a shoutout in that thread lol. I thought Panth was bad until I actually learnt how to play him and now I feel like he's so strong. I feel like people aren't brave enough when playing him so cry that he's weak. It's just in solo Q no matter how hard to dominate the map your team can still Dignitas it all away.
edit: Reading that reddit thread made my head hurt. People saying how it's "toxic" to have an actual power curve instead of the generic always useful. Why does Riot actually listen to the community, all it's done is given this huge sense of entitlement.
I made a post on the LoL thread about what I think could be done to Pantheon (changing his "E" to reduce/remove the minion damage restriction) to make him more viable competitively.
I definitely disagree with the notion on some of the reddit posts that having a power curve is toxic or not fun - Pantheon is incredibly fun largely for that reason (on the flipside, of my other favorite champions - Kassadin - has the exact opposite power curve with an incredibly weak pre-6 laning and is equally fun). Having champions that act like Starcraft timing pushes to give your team advantages at certain stages of the game is really cool/interesting and I wish more worked like that to be honest.
I'm just hoping that whatever changes they decide to go with keep some of that feel intact - he is currently viable at every level of play in solo queue and I am worried that - with his kit - any changes that make him strong enough to compete in LCS will invariably be changes that make him too strong in solo queue and lead to a nerf/genericising of everything that was great about him.
Yea, I really dislike how Riot and a large portion of the playerbase pushes homogenous power curves so hard. I get that it makes the game easier in some respects, but it kills champion diversity imo
This guide is amazing: I bought pantheon and never looked back. At my level, in silver pantheon is just absolute faceroll as most midlaners overextend all the time and I finish most games fed as hell.
It's just so satisfying to rape those ryzes, kassadins and fizzes that run rampant at this elo.
After the tear nerf is it still one of your key items? I feel like it takes ages to charge it. Maybe just buying a chalice would be better at this point.
On July 24 2013 08:23 OmegaKnetus wrote: This guide is amazing: I bought pantheon and never looked back. At my level, in silver pantheon is just absolute faceroll as most midlaners overextend all the time and I finish most games fed as hell.
It's just so satisfying to rape those ryzes, kassadins and fizzes that run rampant at this elo.
After the tear nerf is it still one of your key items? I feel like it takes ages to charge it. Maybe just buying a chalice would be better at this point.
I like it against certain enemies where you really have to soften them up with a bunch of spells before you can commit to going in, or generally any situation where it looks more like a farm fest, but generally I have been skipping tear lately and going very frequently for the ravenous hydra build vs. most matchups - its really strong in lane, in the midgame, and is the only item (other than GA) that really gives panth a place in the lategame with his ability to duel and splitpush.
On July 24 2013 08:23 OmegaKnetus wrote: This guide is amazing: I bought pantheon and never looked back. At my level, in silver pantheon is just absolute faceroll as most midlaners overextend all the time and I finish most games fed as hell.
It's just so satisfying to rape those ryzes, kassadins and fizzes that run rampant at this elo.
After the tear nerf is it still one of your key items? I feel like it takes ages to charge it. Maybe just buying a chalice would be better at this point.
I like it against certain enemies where you really have to soften them up with a bunch of spells before you can commit to going in, or generally any situation where it looks more like a farm fest, but generally I have been skipping tear lately and going very frequently for the ravenous hydra build vs. most matchups - its really strong in lane, in the midgame, and is the only item (other than GA) that really gives panth a place in the lategame with his ability to duel and splitpush.
Also chalice is really solid still!
I just re-installed the game and played a bit last week after a couple months hiatus.
Personally I disagree with Chalice unless you don't start with a flask.
When I played I pretty much never ran into mana issues simply by getting flask. Since I found myself shopping a decent amount given the mobility of Panth's ult, I didn't really run out of mana with flask. Therefore, if you start with a flask, I would get a hexdrinker over the chalice (if you feel you need magic resist), since the hexdrinker is way more relevant mid-game and builds into a decent late-game item.
Some of the most fun I've had on a champ in awhile. Thanks for sick guide, managed to snowball the whole game by just getting 2 early kills and exerting pressure everywhere. In that situation is it worth getting a defensive item earlier? I kind of just went BT because I went back to base with 3k gold one time.
Some of the most fun I've had on a champ in awhile. Thanks for sick guide, managed to snowball the whole game by just getting 2 early kills and exerting pressure everywhere. In that situation is it worth getting a defensive item earlier? I kind of just went BT because I went back to base with 3k gold one time.
dat PvP.net placement to "subtly" show off your desktop background.
On July 24 2013 08:23 OmegaKnetus wrote: This guide is amazing: I bought pantheon and never looked back. At my level, in silver pantheon is just absolute faceroll as most midlaners overextend all the time and I finish most games fed as hell.
It's just so satisfying to rape those ryzes, kassadins and fizzes that run rampant at this elo.
After the tear nerf is it still one of your key items? I feel like it takes ages to charge it. Maybe just buying a chalice would be better at this point.
I like it against certain enemies where you really have to soften them up with a bunch of spells before you can commit to going in, or generally any situation where it looks more like a farm fest, but generally I have been skipping tear lately and going very frequently for the ravenous hydra build vs. most matchups - its really strong in lane, in the midgame, and is the only item (other than GA) that really gives panth a place in the lategame with his ability to duel and splitpush.
Also chalice is really solid still!
I just re-installed the game and played a bit last week after a couple months hiatus.
Personally I disagree with Chalice unless you don't start with a flask.
When I played I pretty much never ran into mana issues simply by getting flask. Since I found myself shopping a decent amount given the mobility of Panth's ult, I didn't really run out of mana with flask. Therefore, if you start with a flask, I would get a hexdrinker over the chalice (if you feel you need magic resist), since the hexdrinker is way more relevant mid-game and builds into a decent late-game item.
Just my 2 cents.
Hey hey. Welcome back, a few days ago I saw a red post about how you taught him pantheon, or something. Too bad I didn't save it.
Some of the most fun I've had on a champ in awhile. Thanks for sick guide, managed to snowball the whole game by just getting 2 early kills and exerting pressure everywhere. In that situation is it worth getting a defensive item earlier? I kind of just went BT because I went back to base with 3k gold one time.
dat PvP.net placement to "subtly" show off your desktop background.
I'm on to you, Numy.
Just spreading the love is all.
edit: I'm serious about the snowballing question. I've had a few games were I've gotten pretty far ahead but been unable to really convert that advantage into a win. Specially when it comes to when do you get defensive item and when to just keep going offensive.
Some of the most fun I've had on a champ in awhile. Thanks for sick guide, managed to snowball the whole game by just getting 2 early kills and exerting pressure everywhere. In that situation is it worth getting a defensive item earlier? I kind of just went BT because I went back to base with 3k gold one time.
dat PvP.net placement to "subtly" show off your desktop background.
I'm on to you, Numy.
Just spreading the love is all.
edit: I'm serious about the snowballing question. I've had a few games were I've gotten pretty far ahead but been unable to really convert that advantage into a win. Specially when it comes to when do you get defensive item and when to just keep going offensive.
Well, defensive options are rather limited for Panth, power spikes mean the world to him. So outside of boots, you have GA/Omen to fall back on like Atrioc mentioned. Out of my games, I haven't gotten a defensive item before I have three major offensive items built first (typically BT BC Muramana).
For me, the 3 major off items are BT/BC/LW, if I'm playing Achille style. When using Perseus, it's the same except that I add a muramana in it, so it's 1 less defensive item.
On July 20 2013 12:53 VashTS wrote: I'm kinda bad and "lost" (went even) with a Ryze in lane just now. I started Fask 3pot, he started mana crystal. Should I have started Red Pot and just facerolled him?
Trading Q's was slightly favorable at level 1, and QW-AA-Q seemed to hurt a bit less than his combo (minions maybe) but I must have been doing something wrong to not be able to smash an early game ryze with only a mana crystal. He seemed to recover a ton of hp for only 2 pots, which kinda threw me off..
On July 20 2013 12:53 VashTS wrote: I'm kinda bad and "lost" (went even) with a Ryze in lane just now. I started Fask 3pot, he started mana crystal. Should I have started Red Pot and just facerolled him?
Trading Q's was slightly favorable at level 1, and QW-AA-Q seemed to hurt a bit less than his combo (minions maybe) but I must have been doing something wrong to not be able to smash an early game ryze with only a mana crystal. He seemed to recover a ton of hp for only 2 pots, which kinda threw me off..
Requote.
There's no way you should have loss that lane. Ryze didn't even have any armor. I don't know the specifics but if you went "even" against Ryze in mid lane, you're actually behind due to how Ryze and Panth scale.
Edit: You should poke far better because 1) you have more item regen, 2) Spears hurt more. By level 3, you should have completely zoned Ryze.
Yes, hence "even" being in quotes, since its not actually even at all.
See that's all what I figured too, but that's not how it worked at all, which is why I'm so fucking confused.. I need to play the matchup again I guess.
Well, hope you get to play it again and come back with more details. From what I can glean, you aren't harassing enough in lane (and I don't mean strictly level 1. In fact, I don't spear much at level 1, mostly at 3 and 5). You shouldn't be afraid to walk up and poke trade with auto attacks, esp when your passive is up.
So, I tried a bunch of hydra rush pantheon today (on top lane). Before, I'd usually go brutalizer->BT->GA or LW which worked pretty well. I think I'm starting to prefer hydra before BT though, since I can push faster to go gank other lanes without getting taxed too much. The burst during ganks feels about the same (maybe higher?), and I feel way more useful in teamifghts with the extra lifesteal (Not to mention it's super easy to blow up a squishy with Q->W->AA->Hydra->E
Lower spear harass damage when I only have tiamat kinda sucks though, so I guess it's better if I only get it if I manage to get ahead.
When I went hydra top I felt like the spear harass might be lower but if you just go in for a melee trade you often burst a lot more than the enemy can handle with good use of passive.
I'm with Neo on this. If you get a BT you can clear super fast with HSS. The extra "clear" potential of Hydra doesn't really exist imo. You might be able to take out a wave 0.5 sec faster, but I don't think that's really significant. BT gives a lot more AD than Hydra and I don't feel that Hydra's passive makes up for it. Also I think the health regen is kinda a waste on Panth. Hydra might be good top lane (I don't really play panth top) but it's not worht it mid imo.
I'am not completely sold on maxing hss. the base damage on Q goes up faster than on hss and Q is far less situational than hss. Also clearing speed is really a non-issue when I play panth. Things I care about when playing him is map awareness, gank timings, objectives, and panths health and mana. Farming/clearing at lvl 10+ and buying the first big thing is like the last item on my priority list.
For essentially the same price, Hydra gives you better base stats (5 more AD, 15hp5) and builds way more efficiently/cleaner (Pickaxe + long swords + rejuv beads, all great/cheap laning items vs. BT + vamp).
ABILITY: HYDRA: Auto attack reset, best possible waveclear (costs no mana), best possible usage of lifesteal (generally a bad stat on Panth)
BT: Stacking up to +30 ad, +6% lifesteal off of 30 minion kills, half stacks lost on death.
To justify BT over Hydra, you have to be saying that the possibility of stacking +25 AD over Hydra is not only more valuable than Hydra's auto attack reset, AOE waveclear, and better lifesteal, but its so much better as to justify the worse build path, more mana-hungry and slower wave clear, and ability to lose any of that advantage upon a death.
I cant make that justification, especially with just how good/fun hydra feels (i like the addition of more to do/think about by getting to spam the item active), so I almost never go BT over Hydra. Obviously other people's mileage will vary but I definitely encourage giving Hydra a shot a couple times to really get a feel for it.
On July 29 2013 02:02 clickrush wrote: I'am not completely sold on maxing hss. the base damage on Q goes up faster than on hss and Q is far less situational than hss. Also clearing speed is really a non-issue when I play panth. Things I care about when playing him is map awareness, gank timings, objectives, and panths health and mana. Farming/clearing at lvl 10+ and buying the first big thing is like the last item on my priority list.
I'm not sure about the base damage part:
HSS: MAX PHYSICAL DAMAGE VERSUS CHAMPIONS: 80 / 140 / 200 / 260 / 320 +60 each time, with a +360% bonus AD ratio with a full channel
SPEAR: PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 65 / 105 / 145 / 185 / 225 +40 each time, with a +140% bonus AD ratio
but I do agree that HSS is more situational - I just generally find the situation to be - "Are we not in lane phase + do I want to kill this guy" and that comes up a lot.
spear has more base damage increase per second until you reach rank 5 (then its even). and for every hss i use at least 2 spears. Often i cant use hss at all because of the channel time for example when i get kited or when ppl have stuns up etc.
taking hss over spear is a purely psychological thing. when you are hssing it feels great because the damage is so high, but you actually spear at least 2 times more often. in a teamfight I hss 1 mb two times when its maxed but i spear like 5 times or so. you cant hss an ad carry who is kiting you, you cant hss when you are repositioning in general. in lane spear has no counterplay except not getting in range. the base mana stays the same with spear as well while hss mana cost scales. the damage on hss also has to make up for you channeling and not autoattacking. just looks so manly/scary to hss.
To give some input: I played a lot of panth mid recently and everytime I build bt I can't really maintain full BT stacks anyways. You will most likely die in teamfights if you aren't massively ahead (or got GA), so you'll lose stacks constantly. Hydra seems to be the better choice
So I decided to try out Mantheon mid as the terribad bronzie that I am, and its been working relatively well. However I just got out of a game facing a Jayce mid (wonderful blind pick normals), and it just seemed like I couldn't touch him. Granted I have no experience laning vs a Jayce, but it just seemed like the best idea was to chuck spears to keep him honest, wait till 6 and gank bot. I just felt like I couldn't deal with Jayce straight up, so I built the rest of the game a more splitpush hydra style. Any advice for dealing with Jayce in lane?
On July 28 2013 22:06 NeoIllusions wrote: Honestly, I don't see the appeal of Hydra on Panth. Why do you need "easier" clear with Hydra when you have HSS max'd at level 10?
Hydra provides AoE autos and extra regen but that's nothing compared to the scaling AD/LS from BT.
I still don't see the appeal of Hydra on anyone but like...Lee. >.>
Every time I see someone get Hydra in one of my games it just feels so underwhelming.
Hmm, I might actually be a convert, Hydra has felt strong in both games I've bought it, although I was pretty ahead already so BT might have felt the same way.
On August 03 2013 10:32 LoCicero wrote: Hmm, I might actually be a convert, Hydra has felt strong in both games I've bought it, although I was pretty ahead already so BT might have felt the same way.
I'm a convert on the CDR build for the opening alone. Dblade + pot + biscuit is such an awesome thing to go to lane with. It also might just be my imagination but I really feel like the gold masteries really help me out when I roam so much.
is there ever an appropriate time to get cd glyphs cause it seems like err item is designed to work out to 40% cd and if im bein brave spartan i need mr ne way
Can't remember precisely from Loci's stream, but the CDR build includes golem spirit, brutaliser, 21 utility, which makes at least 26% CDR (prob 30% since meh 4% AS), do you get the rest from some CDR glyps (flat I assume?) or just get Ionian Boots (and points in Butcher and Ignite Mastery in offense instead so you don't go over the cap too much)?
Whoa, cool! Can you elaborate a little bit on the build? Is trading the spear strength for the extra spear spear spam + roaming worth it? Are there specific matchups that you like taking it? Ones that you'd rather be going 21 offense?
On August 04 2013 07:02 affinity wrote: Whoa, cool! Can you elaborate a little bit on the build? Is trading the spear strength for the extra spear spear spam + roaming worth it? Are there specific matchups that you like taking it? Ones that you'd rather be going 21 offense?
To be honest, I think it's just better all around. People can't really kick you out of lane since oyu have enough sustain and you're a threat. The only person I cant think that I would start something else would be like Yorick or something. I don't think I'll ever go back to offensive start. The utility masteries make you super fast and lets you start dblade biscuit pot, which is really strong. Even if the dblade start is weaker than flask with offensive masteries. The Dblade lets you gank at lvl 6 with a brutalizer + dblade, which is beastmode.
As for the build, I used to fiddle (harhar) with CDR a long time ago before they had tenacity items and felt it was strong, but I just couldn't live without the tenacity. Therefore, when the new tenacity jungle item came out I was like, woooot, and came up with a CDR build around it.
Yea, when I tried it out a bit yesterday, it was pretty fun where once I got all my CDR items. I'd just gank, back/return to lane to clear, and then my ult would be up again. The problem is that I failed a lot more ganks than usual (maybe bad on my part, but I would always be missing some damage). I felt less useful in teamfights too - the lack of damage meant I couldn't pop people as much, and I didn't feel tanky enough to make up for it.
When I did it I wouldn't slow down any major items to get the CDR - I still stayed on boots 1 for a long time and built hydra or lw after brutalizer/dblade. I just replaced whatever boots I would noramlly go with Ionian, and whatever defense item I would usually go with Ancient Golem. I think rushing all of them might not give you the burst you want at some key fights.
On August 05 2013 11:18 Atrioc wrote: When I did it I wouldn't slow down any major items to get the CDR - I still stayed on boots 1 for a long time and built hydra or lw after brutalizer/dblade. I just replaced whatever boots I would noramlly go with Ionian, and whatever defense item I would usually go with Ancient Golem. I think rushing all of them might not give you the burst you want at some key fights.
I usually go for CDR boots anyways, unless I was planning on getting a Spirit Visage cus we were against double AP.
so what's the current consensus on the early build? I've been watching his videos and the first one I watched he built a chalice, the second one he built a tear, and some people are arguing you shouldn't build any mana regen.
Scarra is a god! I think that is the first time I've seen Panth mid in a professional match. Even in China he's only shown up a few times as a top laner and I dont think hes appeared in Korea at all.
On August 17 2013 15:48 Complete wrote: so what's the current consensus on the early build? I've been watching his videos and the first one I watched he built a chalice, the second one he built a tear, and some people are arguing you shouldn't build any mana regen.
The strongest most straightforward build is starting flask / 3pots into brutalizer into last whisper. Even I don't go tear/chalice too often lately unless I'm playing in a normal or on a smurf where I know I can get an advantage without the early stats.
Extra mana does give you a lot of cool opportunities to punish passive opponents by letting you spam wave clear / take jungle camps / give up blue buffs (if you have a jungle Eve/Elise this is super strong) and stay out on the map a long time, so I definitely think its worth giving a try if you haven't.
by flash 3 pots you mean flask 2 health pots 1 mana pot right? 2 mana pots gives a ton of harass but after 1 mana pot I think they get trained to stfa from you and allow you to farm on your own.
Also I would propose a ga rush. its really not that expensive and the early heavy mr works wonders for you winning lane while you cug pots and stay in lane. having a pre 15 minute ga is game changing in small fights and extremly fun in larger fights.
Can somebody explain to me how the ultimate+early stun 'glitch' works? I only just bought pantheon yesterday and didn't get much of a chance to play him yet, and when I did I was too worried about other stuff to actually see what happened exactly.
On August 18 2013 18:28 Complete wrote: Can somebody explain to me how the ultimate+early stun 'glitch' works? I only just bought pantheon yesterday and didn't get much of a chance to play him yet, and when I did I was too worried about other stuff to actually see what happened exactly.
Not really a glitch but as soon as Panth jumps and the landing circle is on the map, you can "pre-cast". Meaning a few seconds before Panth actually lands you can target who you want to W.
What do you think is the ideal setup against Fizz? I don't think I am playing it right because Fizz always seems to fuck me no matter what character I play. His early game all in is also nuts, and if he snowballs it's really hard to stop him.
Played a game last night where I started 9-0-5 and ended up like 14-4-15 or so. Used to play panth a lot in s1 and it's great to be playing him again ^^
Hmm, so i watched your Video on the Lifesteal quints and teleport, and I like it but i feel like it leads to me just being a little behind the other mid laner.
I dunno, I've had a lot of success using TP to turn around ganks and getting my AD fed, I just dont really know how to transition late game because like Bot gets huge, but then my 1-2 assists is usually less gold than enemy laner shoving my tower and grabbing two waves.
By about level 8 I just feel behind because I've probably ganked twice and enemy laner just like 4 waves ahead and therefore is like a level ahead. Is this just me being unlucky and my teams not being able to carry me? Or should I be more greedy with kills? In two of the games I played my lane opponent just like carried hard (one was an Ori, other was a Vlad) from me letting off the pressure I was imposing on them.
It could be just pure luck, but I usually win about 70% of my panth games at gold three level, and I am 1-4 using the Teleport and lifesteal quints. Maybe against lategame mages like that I should go ignite and just not let them in the game? I'm curious what the architect of the strategy thinks.
On October 10 2013 12:54 iCanada wrote: Hmm, so i watched your Video on the Lifesteal quints and teleport, and I like it but i feel like it leads to me just being a little behind the other mid laner.
I dunno, I've had a lot of success using TP to turn around ganks and getting my AD fed, I just dont really know how to transition late game because like Bot gets huge, but then my 1-2 assists is usually less gold than enemy laner shoving my tower and grabbing two waves.
By about level 8 I just feel behind because I've probably ganked twice and enemy laner just like 4 waves ahead and therefore is like a level ahead. Is this just me being unlucky and my teams not being able to carry me? Or should I be more greedy with kills? In two of the games I played my lane opponent just like carried hard (one was an Ori, other was a Vlad) from me letting off the pressure I was imposing on them.
It could be just pure luck, but I usually win about 70% of my panth games at gold three level, and I am 1-4 using the Teleport and lifesteal quints. Maybe against lategame mages like that I should go ignite and just not let them in the game? I'm curious what the architect of the strategy thinks.
Running TP is definitely a little risky, but so is picking Panth in general, that's the fun! If you're teleporting and the enemy laner gets 4 waves ahead, you're teleporting at a bad time. You should really only teleport if you have your lane pushed or if you are 100% guaranteed to get a double kill and possibly a turret. Once you hit 6, you can keep your mid turret alive pretty well by ulting to lanes and TPing back after shopping and healing.
Make sure to auto attack the creeps and press forward, this lets you use TP without missing much. Also, roaming early can get you a kill on the lvl 3 jungle gank and with TP you can shop and get back to lane without missing much CS. The purpose of TP should be to maximize your early game gold. If you're using it and falling behind in cs, you need to adjust your playstyle and the way you use it.
I think it's the most fun playstyle I've found with Panth (and probably most successful for me), so it's become my go-to style.
On October 11 2013 01:01 Xenocide_Knight wrote: What masteries do you run Loci? I assume 21 offense but 9 defense or 9 utility for the mana? Oh nvm, 9 in utility -.-;
Ooo, different question: When do you get a brutalizer and when do you not? Is it just if you don't have enough for a bf sword?
For masteries I use 21 0 9. I use utility for the move speed and mana regen mainly.
You're pretty much right about the brutalizer. If I somehow accrue 1550 I'll buy a BF sword straight away, but usually that doesn't happen, because Panth is a champ that needs early game power, and saving up for a BF sword hurts your early game power curve quite a bit.
On October 10 2013 21:36 NovaTheFeared wrote: I usually take the first couple kills bot lane to make sure my itemization remains ahead of the mid laner. Then I start handing them off to the AD.
I agree with this style. You need to snowball yourself early, then you can get your team going. That's what I generally tell my junglers in my games. "If you snowball my lane, I can snowball everyone else's with TP and my ult."
I think i changed my playstyle in the games where I ran TP from "FUCK YEAH I'M PANTH FIGHT ALL KILL ALL! RAWR!" to something more along the lines of "Oh hey, I caught this guy, come kills him Vayne" and it just kind of led to me no being able to continue exerting pressure because very shortly I was just slightly-ahead/even/behind at early midgame instead of my usual rather ahead point at the early mid game and it just kind of killed all of my game tempo that i was used to.
I dont know why just changing summoners and having that extra option of teleporting accross the map made me become so... unspartan.
On October 12 2013 02:42 iCanada wrote: Mmmm, yeah that makes a lot of sense.
I think i changed my playstyle in the games where I ran TP from "FUCK YEAH I'M PANTH FIGHT ALL KILL ALL! RAWR!" to something more along the lines of "Oh hey, I caught this guy, come kills him Vayne" and it just kind of led to me no being able to continue exerting pressure because very shortly I was just slightly-ahead/even/behind at early midgame instead of my usual rather ahead point at the early mid game and it just kind of killed all of my game tempo that i was used to.
I dont know why just changing summoners and having that extra option of teleporting accross the map made me become so... unspartan.
Derp.
I can see how that could happen. Just start off by taking all the kills for yourself. Have confidence in yourself and take as many kills as you can early, even if you take it from your ADC. If you're an effective Panth player and make patient and smart decisions, you can snowball the game with your farm. That being said, when you get ahead, don't play with the blind aggression that comes with having farm (you aren't jax with his LOLOL IMMUNE TO DAMAGE moves).
My game plan has been to put a primary focus on counter-ganking, even when farmed. Too many times I make poor ult decisions when the jungle is MIA, and end up getting myself and my teammates wiped even when we're ahead. Only go for ganks if you know the position of the enemy jungler and other laners.
If I had to choose the #1 trait required to play Panth to his full potential, it's patience. Most Panth players can get farm early and get some kills, but carrying the game through to the end is really hard and is where most people can't execute.
Most importantly, have fun! Take pride playing the Spartan.
Damn, I wish I could play Pantheon with any measure of skill, when I play him I usually just feed and herp. Excellent guide and great comments
EDIT: Also who the hell is Jambalia? He only plays Pantheon (and does some really weird build with Mob Boots, Brut, LW, Hydra or whatever), he's Diamond I, and he only has 2 runepages. Obviously he's a smurf, but whose smurf? SmashGizmo?
On October 17 2013 09:22 HughMyron wrote: Damn, I wish I could play Pantheon with any measure of skill, when I play him I usually just feed and herp. Excellent guide and great comments
EDIT: Also who the hell is Jambalia? He only plays Pantheon (and does some really weird build with Mob Boots, Brut, LW, Hydra or whatever), he's Diamond I, and he only has 2 runepages. Obviously he's a smurf, but whose smurf? SmashGizmo?
No idea who Jambalia is, maybe Arch Angeloid smurf or something? Not sure.
I struggled with Teleport panth for a solid 15-20 games, but then after figuring it out, I feel like it is vastly superior to ignite. You have so much map pressure its actually kind of disgusting. You can just win all your lanes for you, and then enemy team rages at opposing mid even though realistically, they doing all they can.
Case in point: I just played a game against a Cass mid. Great panth counter, just started like 90 armor, shoved the lane with skills and didn't really let me deal any damage to her. Told J4 to cover my lane, and just forced fights bottom with TP and Ult... by like ten minute mark I have 8 kills, we have secured a dragoin, and have taken bottom tower, and some how our Vayne Evelynn lane is 20 CS and many kills ahead of the enemy Sona-Cait lane.
Feels so good to have like BT+GA before anyone else in agme complete their first item.
<3 Spartans.
I also like your tip about not buying boots because of your base movespeed. I've always bought rather fast boots to force fights, but you really dont need them, and you rather strong at forcing fights anyways with your basemovsepeed alone. Being able to grab an extra Dorans instead of boots is huge. Really feel that boost. That one took a long time to ingrain as well.
After seeing jungle Pantheons in LCS and on some streams, I've been thinking about possible ways to build him. I also bought the champ a few days ago, and I've always liked him.
So you want a bit of tankiness but most of all some hard damage seems to be the recipe for succes. What's bothering my mind is if the added farm from rushing Elder Lizard outweighs the later-coming tankiness of Spirit Golem, assuming it's either: [start]->Elder->Cleaver (?) [start]->Spirit stone->Bruta->Golem
What I'm thinking is, with the second option you could end up with an all-round "finished" midgame build of golem, cleaver, (LW if you afford), GA. HP, resists, damage, possibly even CDR cap if you get CDR boots and mastery. The first option is lacking on HP if you do it similarily, so you'll want another item? to make up for it.
Also, anyone have experience with Doran's blade starts at the moment? Panth used to be able to do it, but then it was often combined with a level 2 gank...
I tried CDR vs AS mastery quickly, and I didn't get noticable differences in the first clear. I can easily imagine AS pulling ahead when you don't have blue though... This was in a blank game though, so leash might change stuff up?
for jungle... i dont know... in my opion there are stronger junglers... but for jungling pan: how about thinking of your spirit stone as a "dorans-jungle".
i think after the introduction of the new passive on spirit stone (and the other jungle items), there is no need to upgrade it. (before changes i was real fan of the wraith upgrade ) i dont think, that any of the upgrade options are worth 1300g. and not even the gold passive makes them worth buying :/ and, by the time u have all other item slots full, u definitly wanna sell that jungle item first anyway. well, not many games last that long... but just in case - that could be an argument
that said. the spirit stone passive is STRONG, farming jungle and regain health+mana... so gud! always rush^^ pantheon is _kind of_ a ranged ad caster. his Q is ranged, his E is ranged, both low cd. he can stay back and do a lot of dps (therefore, ranged ad caster), his W is a double edged sword. putting himself in danger for a stun. so... ad and cdr are the most powerfull stats for him. i think after the spirit stone i would go for burtalizer, cdr/mob boots, IE, BC after maybe a guardian angel? i think, afterwards depends on enemy team: last whisper is almost always a good buy
the IE is super expensive, but his 100% crit passive... synergize real well. if u can -> get IE - if not... well yeah^^ buy what u need vs dat team/for your team)
That's just wrong. IE is bad on Pantheon, because the 100% crit chance only occur when enemies will die in one hit anyway. Unless you're up against a full team of tanks, and then you'd not pick panth in the first place.
Also, the jungle items are good for junglers, since you really need some cost efficiency.
On February 02 2014 10:52 Duvon wrote: That's just wrong. IE is bad on Pantheon, because the 100% crit chance only occur when enemies will die in one hit anyway. Unless you're up against a full team of tanks, and then you'd not pick panth in the first place.
Also, the jungle items are good for junglers, since you really need some cost efficiency.
I've actually been wondering for a while what the point of Certain Death is, since it usually triggers when, like you said, they'd die anyways.
Some rough calculations later, at precisely 15% hp: You'll need about 200 AD to AA 1-shot a 2k hp 100 armor target. Easy. You'll need 400+ AD to AA 1shot a 3k hp 200 armor target. Not so easy. Spearshot is closer, but not quite there either (~380 damage). *Assuming LW and Cleaver.
It's more that Certain Death is useless for a larger part of your targets' health, so all the gold for IE's passive is wasted in these cases, and the gold for the crit% is wasted too for all the damage you deal through Q/E. IE's already super expensive, but on top of that it's effectiveness/gold is weaker than straight AD stuff like BT or Hydra.
So I've been thinking about taking the Pantheon man up top lane.
Can anyone tell me a typical 6-item build on him? Or better yet, what is the ratio of offensive items to defensive items on this guy? Do people usually go Ravenous Hydra, Last Whisper, Brutalizer, Randuin's Omen and then Banshee's Veil on him? I realize that his items choices are going to vary from game to game but I'm just wondering what is decent on him.
And then my next question is what are his early core items? I realize that he likes his early Brutalizer, but does anyone else have good suggestions for him?
and my last question, which top laners have a better early game than Pantheon? I know Pantheon's early game is supposed to be godly but I was wondering if there was anyone in particular I have too look out for.
On June 18 2014 00:30 Frudgey wrote: So I've been thinking about taking the Pantheon man up top lane.
Can anyone tell me a typical 6-item build on him? Or better yet, what is the ratio of offensive items to defensive items on this guy? Do people usually go Ravenous Hydra, Last Whisper, Brutalizer, Randuin's Omen and then Banshee's Veil on him? I realize that his items choices are going to vary from game to game but I'm just wondering what is decent on him.
And then my next question is what are his early core items? I realize that he likes his early Brutalizer, but does anyone else have good suggestions for him?
and my last question, which top laners have a better early game than Pantheon? I know Pantheon's early game is supposed to be godly but I was wondering if there was anyone in particular I have too look out for.
Thanks!
Not really, he pretty much bodies every top laner. Granted I havn't played him top in like two seasons and a lot of champions got changed.
I find the swain matchup really challenging, but no one plays swain anymore. Xin is a bitch, but again no one plays. Malphite is like a hard lose lane. Jax will outplay you and beat you if he is good. Irelia should win the matchup too, but you have a chance to snowball really hard if your opponent doesn't know the matchup. Yorick will dominate you, as will Volibear, and Darius. I personally think a GP played right beats your too, but if they don't they get rolled.
Other than that Pantheon wins pretty much every lane pretty hard. Not sure about some of the newer champions though.
A Nasus in one of my games gave up first blood to panth at 2mins... Was not a fun game. I know it's not a common pick but Fiora would probably have a scarier level 1/2 right?
On June 18 2014 09:33 miicah wrote: A Nasus in one of my games gave up first blood to panth at 2mins... Was not a fun game. I know it's not a common pick but Fiora would probably have a scarier level 1/2 right?
No, Pantheon shits on Fiora.
Like hard.
Nasus is one of those that I'm not sure about.
He was buffed a lot since I played Pantheon top frequently, I feel like he is likely too hard to push out of lane if he itemizes / runes correctly and should win, but I honeslty havn't played it. For the longest time though, yeah Pantheon would absolutely roll over Nasus.
Yeah I just played a couple of games of Pantheon top, and I played a couple game of Dominion with him. He can body people really hard. Like I went against a Kayle top lane and I just crushed her. I also went against a Riven and it wasn't too hard to assert lane dominance against her either.
I think Darius versus Pantheon is in favor of Darius, but if he's dumb and doesn't build armor straight away you can just wear him out with spears. (Believe me that's a mistake I've made before)
On June 18 2014 12:52 Frudgey wrote: Yeah I just played a couple of games of Pantheon top, and I played a couple game of Dominion with him. He can body people really hard. Like I went against a Kayle top lane and I just crushed her. I also went against a Riven and it wasn't too hard to assert lane dominance against her either.
I think Darius versus Pantheon is in favor of Darius, but if he's dumb and doesn't build armor straight away you can just wear him out with spears. (Believe me that's a mistake I've made before)
No, Darius just wins unless the Darius is really really bad.
Panth has like no chance in that matchup. You just straight up can't fight him after he levels E. Any good Darius will pull you if you get in spear range then all in you. And you will die.
Best case scenario you get shoved into your tower and Darius out CS+creeps you and you have zero game relavence unless Darius himself roams. Worst case scenario you fight him and die.
On June 18 2014 12:52 Frudgey wrote: Yeah I just played a couple of games of Pantheon top, and I played a couple game of Dominion with him. He can body people really hard. Like I went against a Kayle top lane and I just crushed her. I also went against a Riven and it wasn't too hard to assert lane dominance against her either.
I think Darius versus Pantheon is in favor of Darius, but if he's dumb and doesn't build armor straight away you can just wear him out with spears. (Believe me that's a mistake I've made before)
No, Darius just wins unless the Darius is really really bad.
Panth has like no chance in that matchup. You just straight up can't fight him after he levels E. Any good Darius will pull you if you get in spear range then all in you. And you will die.
Best case scenario you get shoved into your tower and Darius out CS+creeps you and you have zero game relavence unless Darius himself roams. Worst case scenario you fight him and die.
Panth spears have 600 range and no cast time I believe. Apprehend has 540 range and a slight cast time. Not to mention Pantheon's base movement speed is 15 higher than Darius, so it's a little easier to kite him. Not to mention, Apprehend is on a ~22 second cool down at level one, so even if he does grab you, you can stun him him and disengage. Spears are on a much lower cooldown than apprehend.
I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I don't think it's as much of a free win as you think it is for Darius.
Of course that being said, I might just be an awful Darius player haha!
Darius has a 5% MS buff (per champion affected) on his passive. I've seen some run MS quints just to be able to catch someone more easily, apply the passive and grind them down.
Pantheon will have to get close to the creep wave to farm, Darius' blade-Q deals more damage than Panth's Q and he's (at least) as fast as you once you're tagged, it also helps him push to hit 2 first and/or have the creep wave advantage. If Darius tags Pantheon with his passive using a blade-Q then stacks it, there's no way Pantheon wins the fight at early levels. Darius' passive is just too strong. After this if he builds some armour/HP (to abuse his very high armour and consistent damage) and pots he can grind Pantheon's mana pool down, at which point there's not much Panth can do. He also automatically loses the lane at level 6 obv.
On June 18 2014 17:25 Alaric wrote: Darius has a 5% MS buff (per champion affected) on his passive. I've seen some run MS quints just to be able to catch someone more easily, apply the passive and grind them down.
Pantheon will have to get close to the creep wave to farm, Darius' blade-Q deals more damage than Panth's Q and he's (at least) as fast as you once you're tagged, it also helps him push to hit 2 first and/or have the creep wave advantage. If Darius tags Pantheon with his passive using a blade-Q then stacks it, there's no way Pantheon wins the fight at early levels. Darius' passive is just too strong. After this if he builds some armour/HP (to abuse his very high armour and consistent damage) and pots he can grind Pantheon's mana pool down, at which point there's not much Panth can do. He also automatically loses the lane at level 6 obv.
Oh yes I agree with what you're saying. All I wanted to say is that if Darius doesn't build straight up armour and health then Pantheon can just whittle him down with spears.
I'm really going to have to play the lane match up again though. You guys are raising a lot of good points in which frankly I'm a little embarrassed that I didn't consider them. To be honest I haven't played the lane match-up very many times so I can't speak from much experience, so I can't really say that I know what I'm talking about.
On June 18 2014 12:52 Frudgey wrote: Yeah I just played a couple of games of Pantheon top, and I played a couple game of Dominion with him. He can body people really hard. Like I went against a Kayle top lane and I just crushed her. I also went against a Riven and it wasn't too hard to assert lane dominance against her either.
I think Darius versus Pantheon is in favor of Darius, but if he's dumb and doesn't build armor straight away you can just wear him out with spears. (Believe me that's a mistake I've made before)
No, Darius just wins unless the Darius is really really bad.
Panth has like no chance in that matchup. You just straight up can't fight him after he levels E. Any good Darius will pull you if you get in spear range then all in you. And you will die.
Best case scenario you get shoved into your tower and Darius out CS+creeps you and you have zero game relavence unless Darius himself roams. Worst case scenario you fight him and die.
I'm no pro, but in my experience, it's a lot closer than you make it out. Top pantheon was my most played season 2-3 and I don't ever recall being concerned about a darius pick. Granted, not recently so my memory might be biased, but pre-6 I don't think Darius is going to do that well in a straight up fight.
First off, at lvl 1-3, spear is has over 100 range longer than decimate and less than half the cd. Not to mention Pantheon has higher base movement speed. Also, a huge portion of darius' damage comes from auto attacks which is Pantheon's specialty. Assuming darius goes Q-E-Q-W by level 4, honestly, I wouldn't even bother trying to avoid being apprehended. In a straight fight at lvl 4:
Spear does more damage than decimate on half the cd Pantheon will guaranteed block 2 autos, possibly 3, especially if you can prep your passive/w stacks. Stun vs an extra auto for Ws HSS does huge damage while apprehend does literally nothing. Darius has bleed passive. Pantheon has certain death passive. (I mean, yea the bleed hurts but the fight starts out with Darius being stunned, getting his next 2 autos blocked, standing in HSS, and already having eaten a spear. Bleed is over 5 seconds and considering he has to stack them, I really don't think it will significantly turn the tide of an all in.)
So assuming equal stats, over a 5-7 second fight, it seems to me on paper, Pantheon has a clear upper hand.
Also, it possible that the Darii I face are just garbage, but outside of Apprehend, there is literally nothing Darius can do other than push the lane while whiffing Qs. Which, given Darius has no sustain, he's always going to be overextended and half hp as a 0 mobility, 0 cc melee champion. And even if you do get apprehended, it's a 24 second cd vs 13 seconds for pantheon's disengage.
In my experience, Pantheon wins the lane pretty hard as long as he doesn't make a mistake that gives a kill away.
But like pretty much every other top lane matchup, it's not extremely one-sided unless there's a big jungler influence. Whoever gets ahead stays ahead. Also, Pantheon can build full damage basically while Darius is forced to armor stack. Once Darius gets a lot of armor it's actually in his favor, IMO, but by then it should be more of a "who has a bigger effect on teamfights and map pressure" game and Pantheon wins that one pretty hard.
But yeah... I would play this lane very aggressively, maybe even with ignite to add kill pressure.
On June 19 2014 10:47 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: In my experience, Pantheon wins the lane pretty hard as long as he doesn't make a mistake that gives a kill away.
But like pretty much every other top lane matchup, it's not extremely one-sided unless there's a big jungler influence. Whoever gets ahead stays ahead. Also, Pantheon can build full damage basically while Darius is forced to armor stack. Once Darius gets a lot of armor it's actually in his favor, IMO, but by then it should be more of a "who has a bigger effect on teamfights and map pressure" game and Pantheon wins that one pretty hard.
But yeah... I would play this lane very aggressively, maybe even with ignite to add kill pressure.
I really dont think this is true, but I could be wrong. My experience is pretty well the exact opposite, and comes not from just my own opinion but from asking Locicero and Smash while they were streaming for tips on the matchup.
I havn't played the matchup in like two seasons, and a lot has changed since then (I think Darius has been hard nerfed a couple times, Penetration changes and itemization changes likely nudge it in Pantheon's favor as well) but my memory has it being an unwinnable matchup for pantheon.
Darius wins all the all-ins. Darius can engage an all in with Q-E-auto-W and then just auto you to death and pantheon can't do anything unless he has flash. Darius can mitigate Pantheon's Damage and Pantheon cannot mitigate Darius' (its 33% Magic, 33% AD, 33% true). If Pantheon wants to harass Darius he needs to be in melee range to farm, if he wants to farm from afar he gets shoved in.
Obviously a jungler can swing it into pantheons favour with a couple key ganks, but at the same time Pantheon can have it swing the other way just as easily with ganks early. Both champions have good gank assist and awful gank-escapes, its kind of an X-factor more so than usual but in Solo queue you can't really rely on it either way.
Haven't played the matchup from either side in ages, but at some point you have to auto the minions as Panth if you want to be on equal farm. I don't see how you can argue that Darius is just going to shove the wave with his q's if you're going to stand so far back that he can't hit you? Sure you're faster, but he can just choose to not use his q so that's not exactly a permanent solution. You can't use your spear on Darius and to farm, if you just spam it you're going to run out of mana really fast.
Also the analysis Darius vs Panth at 4 is pretty deceiving. Darius hits 6 and slams Pantheon with his ult, Panth gets a really unreliable ult that's probably better at killing other people on Darius's team and not that great in a 1v1. While I agree if Panth gets super ahead he's probably staying there, I don't think he can really get there in an isolated 1v1 without a severe mismatch in skill levels.
Other misconception is people saying stuff like pantheon has like fifteen seconds to exploit darius while his pull is down.... lol just tells me you've never played the match up.
Thing is darius only needs 1 E to get you to a point where you either died 1v1 or need to go home or you'll die if he tries it again, even if the trade was even he wins because he gets so much more Lane presence from his ultimate than pantheon does; darius does similar long term damage to pantheon, hell depending on how panth passive works panth can even win the long term trade, but darius front load burst abs the fact that you'll be fighting in darius minions every time swings it hard in his favor.
If pantheon is even in lane with darius, the darius sucks or doesn't know the match up at all.
To add to this, even if Pantheon does more damage "in a 5-7s all-in", Darius' death or retreating doesn't stop the bleeding passive, so you'll still lose a bunch of HP. (and possibly die) from it.
And since yeah, you have to last hit, it's not about "spear has more range than decimate", unless you willingly forgo some cs early to avoid decimate hitting you and build-up a health lead from spear harass, he's going to tag you with it to punish last-hitting, and hit 2 first. The lane's momentum is decided way before level 4 I'd say. Once you're near your tower he can also easily abuse Q to punish last-hits and harass you under tower (regardless of Decimate's range, Darius retains some momentum while casting, meaning he can slightly move. I've had Darius get into tower range, retreat and Q me while moving backwards, moving out of tower aggro before the tower can shoot). That's not an ideal situation at all, plus if he hits 6 first this way he can easily dive you (and you can't roam while pinned).
Pantheon may be able to win level 2-3 fights, however that's also around the time the jungler shows up, especially now that they all start near bot. Unless you get to ward the river or know that you have a stronger 2v2/faster clearing jungler, going aggro can be pretty dangerous. Even just this makes it harder for Pantheon (because Darius' Q and passive (and later ult) are very strong in 2v2s). How would you block "his 2 next autos" after a W btw? For all I know you can't prep 2 blocks in a row, so even if you already have a block ready, if you W Darius you'll still only block one auto (and W being an auto-reset for Darius with a very fast animation means it's close to impossible to time your W for the refresh between his auto and own W).
On June 19 2014 17:25 Alaric wrote: To add to this, even if Pantheon does more damage "in a 5-7s all-in", Darius' death or retreating doesn't stop the bleeding passive, so you'll still lose a bunch of HP. (and possibly die) from it.
And since yeah, you have to last hit, it's not about "spear has more range than decimate", unless you willingly forgo some cs early to avoid decimate hitting you and build-up a health lead from spear harass, he's going to tag you with it to punish last-hitting, and hit 2 first. The lane's momentum is decided way before level 4 I'd say. Once you're near your tower he can also easily abuse Q to punish last-hits and harass you under tower (regardless of Decimate's range, Darius retains some momentum while casting, meaning he can slightly move. I've had Darius get into tower range, retreat and Q me while moving backwards, moving out of tower aggro before the tower can shoot). That's not an ideal situation at all, plus if he hits 6 first this way he can easily dive you (and you can't roam while pinned).
Pantheon may be able to win level 2-3 fights, however that's also around the time the jungler shows up, especially now that they all start near bot. Unless you get to ward the river or know that you have a stronger 2v2/faster clearing jungler, going aggro can be pretty dangerous. Even just this makes it harder for Pantheon (because Darius' Q and passive (and later ult) are very strong in 2v2s). How would you block "his 2 next autos" after a W btw? For all I know you can't prep 2 blocks in a row, so even if you already have a block ready, if you W Darius you'll still only block one auto (and W being an auto-reset for Darius with a very fast animation means it's close to impossible to time your W for the refresh between his auto and own W).
iirc, it used to be that you could get a stack of your passive and then W someone and you'd retain the stack. Like, if you had 3 stacks and W'd someone, your buffs would indicate (3) stacks of aegis and also the colored in (aegis ready) icon. Or something like that, I haven't actually played Pantheon recently -.-;;
EDIT: oh, I found a video of it!
Oh, and concerning the rest of your post, the highest I've ever been was Gold I so obviously we face very difference caliber Darius players. I just don't feel like it's a hard counter like everyone here is saying, that's all. At my elo, people still fall for the "bait them into a fight at 6, blow everything and still lose because of their ulti, flash into a bush, ult straight up and down trick" which darius is a prime target for. Although now that you can't throw a spear on the way down, I don't know if that's even viable anymore.
On June 19 2014 14:55 iCanada wrote: Yeah, Zero has it right.
Other misconception is people saying stuff like pantheon has like fifteen seconds to exploit darius while his pull is down.... lol just tells me you've never played the match up.
Thing is darius only needs 1 E to get you to a point where you either died 1v1 or need to go home or you'll die if he tries it again, even if the trade was even he wins because he gets so much more Lane presence from his ultimate than pantheon does; darius does similar long term damage to pantheon, hell depending on how panth passive works panth can even win the long term trade, but darius front load burst abs the fact that you'll be fighting in darius minions every time swings it hard in his favor.
If pantheon is even in lane with darius, the darius sucks or doesn't know the match up at all.
I mean, do you have much experience in the match up? I already stated that I do so acting conceited while calling me a liar is a rather poor opening statement. Forgive me if I don't just take your word for it that Darius skilling up apprehend is a huge power spike that makes panth auto lose 1v1. I would doubt even faker if he told me what you're saying so don't take it personally.
Also, you're confused: I already clearly pointed out that Pantheon is front loaded compared to Darius and considering you think Darius steamrolls pantheon, I don't know why I'd ever be in his minion wave. Pantheon out ranges Darius so if anything, Darius will be in Panth's minion wave no? Zero even said, if I stand far enough back, he'll just sit in my minion wave trying to get into Q range. Sure i'll miss cs but it's a wave every 30 seconds and I would gladly miss 1 wave of creeps to get 4 free spears into an all-in, in the middle of my creep wave.
To compare, the range difference between decimate and spear is the same as Graves vs Caitlyn. And considering spear cast time is way lower than an auto attack animation, AND pantheon is faster than darius, I really don't know what you're planning on doing for 15 seconds before your E is back up. Assuming you didn't whiff the E because spear also out-ranges that..
To add, Pantheon has a stun which really can't be understated. In a duel where both parties do massive damage, the side with CC obviously has the upper hand. Levels 3-5, if Darius ever gets to ~35% hp, as long as pantheon has more than 10% hp, Panth will win everytime. Stun-auto-spear-auto is instant death at that range; you can't flash out of it nor do you have the time to retaliate with anything more than 1 decimate, at best, before you die.
I guess what I'm wondering as well is if Darius does apprehend Pantheon, can Pantheon just stun him and then walk away? I'm sure he'd still eat a Q at that point, but if Darius is doing an apprehend and a decimate for his harass he going to have mana problems, at least in the early levels.
And for Darius fighting in his creep wave if he pulls Pantheon, Darius will also hook enemy minions towards him, so keep that in mind. Although I agree with the point being made.
I mean at this point we might all just have to agree to disagree until we actually experience the matchup again haha. I feel like at this point we're doing theorycrafting and not actual experience.
If I do get the opportunity to play this match up again sometime soon I'll come back to this thread and let you guys know how it went.
On June 20 2014 01:02 Frudgey wrote: I guess what I'm wondering as well is if Darius does apprehend Pantheon, can Pantheon just stun him and then walk away? I'm sure he'd still eat a Q at that point, but if Darius is doing an apprehend and a decimate for his harass he going to have mana problems, at least in the early levels.
And for Darius fighting in his creep wave if he pulls Pantheon, Darius will also hook enemy minions towards him, so keep that in mind. Although I agree with the point being made.
I mean at this point we might all just have to agree to disagree until we actually experience the matchup again haha. I feel like at this point we're doing theorycrafting and not actual experience.
If I do get the opportunity to play this match up again sometime soon I'll come back to this thread and let you guys know how it went.
No, you can't just run away. The wind up on w allows darius to get cripple on you slowing you hard and also gives him the ms bonus from his passive. If he doesn't sick he'll have ms quints too. And that was when his stun had a flat duration, now it is a small stun level 1 its even worse.
The range difference on spear shot and decimate doesn't matter, pantheon will be in decimation range if you ever want to last hit. It's not like you can both harrass with q and farm with it like cait vs graves.
The stun duration hasn't been changed, that was on the PBE. It's still only a second and Apprehend's pull cc you for slightly longer than the animation so Darius will get his W in anyway, yes.
On June 19 2014 23:53 Xenocide_Knight wrote:Sure i'll miss cs but it's a wave every 30 seconds and I would gladly miss 1 wave of creeps to get 4 free spears into an all-in, in the middle of my creep wave.
Things like this you can't do against a good player. Because he'll just take the CS lead and smash your face in later. You can't really wear down a Darius if he goes cloth 5, you run out of mana first, and it's so slow he can just back long before you get him into the danger zone.
On June 19 2014 23:53 Xenocide_Knight wrote:
To add, Pantheon has a stun which really can't be understated. In a duel where both parties do massive damage, the side with CC obviously has the upper hand. Levels 3-5, if Darius ever gets to ~35% hp, as long as pantheon has more than 10% hp, Panth will win everytime. Stun-auto-spear-auto is instant death at that range; you can't flash out of it nor do you have the time to retaliate with anything more than 1 decimate, at best, before you die.
Why would Darius ever stay in lane if he's that low? He has to eat over 10 spears to even get to that point if he has health potions.
I've played this matchup from both sides this season (I went on a Pantheon binge for a while, and picked Darius to specifically counter a Pantheon once). I feel like your perception of the matchup is probably skewed by Darius's who mindlessly push to tower, stay in lane far longer than they have any business doing, and other bad habits. I mean that's 90% of Darius's, but believe it or not there are people who will do their best to freeze the lane if you refuse to get into auto range of minions. Panth is the one is on a ticking clock more than Darius in the matchup, so there's no real onus on him to do anything crazy if you're going to put yourself behind willfully.
No no, Zero all good laners let a low pantheon flash into a brush, live after burning flash to not escape and then stand in pantheon ultimate...
It's really not a big deal to put yourself thousands of gold behind to burn through the enemy lanes pots.
I don't mean to be rude xeno, but if your argument for a matchup being good is that "chances are you're opponent is trash" then you might as well be advocating 0-0-0 masteries and no runes. I mean hell, doesn't matter, chances are your opponent is trash right?
I'd also like to dispute HSS doing "huge damage" in a lvl 4 fight. The one point you have in HSS at lvl 4 does less damage then just autoattacking and is basically a waste of mana.
Darius has an interrupt with apprehend so I'm not sure why you would rely on HSS to do damage in an all-in. If you are just chucking spears every point you can and not csing at all then the Darius backs and just walks back to lane (god forbid they take teleport to follow you around the map) then you're behind because, while he will lose cs walking back to lane, he'll have items and more pots while you either took flask and likely have one charge left or you have 1-2 spears left before you're forced to back. Then this Darius proceeds to push to tower and gains the level lead while having a gold and/or item lead.
This is all ignoring the op
I take this vs champions that I desperately need to grab an early kill/advantage against. Think Chogath, Zed, Darius, etc. Their level 6 will make them unduelable without a big lead.
So Panth can try to chunk Darius down but this either leads him to trading anyway when going to cs or causes him to lose out on gold which for Panth whose power curve depreciates greatly as time goes on (harder to assassinate without something like the zed ult along with all melee champions becoming more irrelevant as ranged scale up) Darius is going to become a tank so no one dieing favors Darius even if Darius doesn't gain a lead due to the matchup.
Not really sure what a Panth will do vs a Darius who goes teleport since then you just have to deal with someone yanking you out of position for 50%-70% of your ganks.
If you can find a good way to cs while vs a Darius who started q and does not just use it out of range then please tell because it would be great to know since that's definitely something that you could use for other champs in similar situations.
On June 20 2014 03:25 iCanada wrote: No no, Zero all good laners let a low pantheon flash into a brush, live after burning flash to not escape and then stand in pantheon ultimate...
It's really not a big deal to put yourself thousands of gold behind to burn through the enemy lanes pots.
I don't mean to be rude xeno, but if your argument for a matchup being good is that "chances are you're opponent is trash" then you might as well be advocating 0-0-0 masteries and no runes. I mean hell, doesn't matter, chances are your opponent is trash right?
That's not my argument and you know it. I can't do anything more than theory craft and speak from experience to the best of my ability. If your counter argument is "well, I'm so much better than you at the game so I'll just be snarky and discount whatever you say for being bad" then clearly I have nothing to add. But most people are probably gold or below so feel free to ignore the following.
I do want to point out that Darius is in no way 1/3 magic, physical, and true damage. The lane is obviously going to be decided pre-6 since no reasonable pantheon would wait that long to all in. And early game, blocking multiple autos is at least comparable to a cloth armor. Darius is, at best, 60/40 Physical to magic, assuming he tags you constantly with Q to keep stacks up. Which will not happen if you throw a few cs, which is also not thousands of gold. It's throwing a few cs now to bully Darius out of lane.
And that's not at all how the bush Panth ult works, the point is that either they have to eat the ult damage or create a huge amount of distance burning flash (since they're dead center when the circle appears) that they can't close again before Panth stun comes back. Also, it used to be that even if you left the ult circle, Panth could still throw a long distance spear, further closing the gap in a fight.
On June 20 2014 03:44 DrunkenOne wrote: I'd also like to dispute HSS doing "huge damage" in a lvl 4 fight. The one point you have in HSS at lvl 4 does less damage then just autoattacking and is basically a waste of mana.
Well then I'll close this dispute by point out that at lvl 4, HSS does at least 120 raw damage over .75 seconds making it clearly better than auto attacking. Not to mention it's used inbetween auto attacks.
As for power curve arguments, I honestly believe Darius is absolute garbage late game. While Panth might not exactly shine, he at least has much better mobility and pick potential which I value a lot more than one of the most easily kited, 0 defense mechanism, melee champions in the game.
Concerning tele, and/or speed quints, since I'm planning on killing him straight up, that's really only in my favor. If I all in and he has to flash out, b, and tele back, there are so many ways to exploit that I basically already won the lane.
We're also talking about this in a vacuum. The really big problem with Darius is that he gets completely owned by ganks if he pushes. Cloth + 5 isn't going to help if you get 100-0'd. The real zoning threat comes from the jungle and W, not from the spears.
But I mean, I guess that would differ at each level of play.
On June 20 2014 16:15 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: We're also talking about this in a vacuum. The really big problem with Darius is that he gets completely owned by ganks if he pushes. Cloth + 5 isn't going to help if you get 100-0'd. The real zoning threat comes from the jungle and W, not from the spears.
But I mean, I guess that would differ at each level of play.
that is true for both. in a massacre lane like panth vs darius the jungle influence is huge on both sides.
How do you play panth vs Trynda top after level ~9?
Like early levels i was zoning the shit out of trynd but once he had cutlass+multiple points in W it was rough for me - waiting for the AD reduction to come off so that i could do damage limited me to basically one cycle and then i had to run/die, but using them while the AD- was on meant they did shit damage
I was maxing heartseeker first and went bottle+pots->bruta+tabi but after i hit bruta/tabi point (about 12 minutes i think) i just lost any sort of presence in lane because every time i went to poke he just spun on top and had to run from W slow and cutlass slow TT
Why would you Max E first? Q is much much much better in lane. More damage, less mana, a third the cooldown, higher range.
Don't run, man mode that shit. Even if you have the ad debuff fight him anyway. Two of his autos will be blocked and you'll get three Q's off for sure, and more autos because you gave higher range, move speed, and base attack speed. In addition your stun will kill half his fury bar.
You should stomp tryn by like 100 cs. All his trading power is auto attacks. Just go fuck him up. It's legitimately the ideal matchup for pantheon.
E is a great skill, but most of its damage output comes from AD scaling as opposed to leveling it. You are much stronger early with Q.
I'd say you probably don't need the bottle as well, in favor of a dblade and whichever pot you like best. I'd probably grab a mana potion against tryn, assuming you have life steal quints. I'd probably push the lane hard, going ham on tryn whenever possible, only laying off when you know their jungle on your side of the map (ie 3:40).
When I say go ham, I mean q auto auto q him when ever he tries to last hit. All can do is auto you back, which you'll block. If he levels spin to trade with you He won't have the sustain to stay in long more than two trades which you'll win hard.
If he's good he'll be pushed to leave lane several times pre six, if he's bad he will straight up die. You should be at least twenty cs ahead at 6 unless their jungle camped you in which case if you didn't die then your team should have big map advantage. By level nine you should have a big item competed and tryn should be maybe half way there while being down a level or so from creeps that just died to tower after being shoved out of lane.
Honestly, I don't think you realize how fucked tryndemere is against you until he hits 6. Even then, he probably will be (should be) behind so much at 6 that he is still screwed in any fight. You have to dominate him early, but it really is a lane heavily tilted in your favor. He should need heavy gank spey to make it through the early game... and even then pantheon will win almost any 2v2 jungles involved to given the difference in cc, burst, and early game lane presence.
When I jungle I'm still doing ranger's upgrade, warrior, second brutalizer, then full tank as standard build. I'm wondering if it might be better to go warrior, new black cleaver into full tank, but I'm not really sure.
On one hand the two brutalizers let you capitalize on Pantheon's strong early mid game, which I feel like is the whole point of jungle Pantheon. On the other hand, new black cleaver as second main item gives you a more useful lategame i'd imagine. You could in theory sit next to your carry and E/Q shred the other team's tank and use W to protect. It also gets you tanky faster.
Anyone have thoughts? I have not tested the black cleaver second yet so I was looking for other opinions. I would say sorry for necroing an old thread but Atrioc's guides are da best and you should all thank me for bringing it up again.
I like new Cleaver on Panth, but only as a later item when the extra 5% shred makes an impact vs flat pen. If the build path didn't suck so much, I'd 100% get it right after Warrior. Warrior/Phage just seems too weak for early-mid. Maybe give it a try though. It's definitely invaluable late-game and in any situation where you'd get LW, it's a suitable replacement if you'll be teamfighting or you have an AD top, jungle or mid.
The thing about it is, it augments his base build really well with health and CDR. But no pen and low AD means it sucks without serious backing if you're going to be a main damage source. Same reason why it's ass on ADCs.
I go shit like Brut/Hydra into BC and do decently well as a splitting threat and in skirmishes, but that's lane Panth.
EPT
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