This is so damn nice. Props to you. Too bad it had to be a guide on mid lane Pantheon. Something that is against my views.
AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC. Additionally, picking AD for your mid makes it so that your entire team is AD unless your top specifically picks AP top. Furthermore, I don't like champs don't scale well into late game. If you get high kill count, you take kills away from your team because you're useless late game. If you don't get a high kill count, you're not doing your job very well and will not have the gold to fully utilize your damage orientated build.
Anyway, Pantheon mid, I don't like/agree with, but your guide is beautiful.
On July 12 2013 21:59 GhostOwl wrote: This is so damn nice. Props to you. Too bad it had to be a guide on mid lane Pantheon. Something that is against my views.
AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC. Additionally, picking AD for your mid makes it so that your entire team is AD unless your top specifically picks AP top. Furthermore, I don't like champs don't scale well into late game. If you get high kill count, you take kills away from your team because you're useless late game. If you don't get a high kill count, you're not doing your job very well and will not have the gold to fully utilize your damage orientated build.
Anyway, Pantheon mid, I don't like/agree with, but your guide is beautiful.
against your views? lol its like you're defending the bible. lots of profesional teams have ad assassins mid sometimes so I guess others views are changing. this guide helps a lot with panth in general not just in mid.
there are basicly countless teamcomps with enough magical damage with panth mid that warrant at least basic mr like mercs and an aegis. also there is much more to a teamcomp than just having an even mix of magical and physical damage sources.
also the midlane is not about having a magical damage source. its about roaming and midgame control or denying of either. the downside about panth mid isnt even his damage type but his weak waveclearing, which makes him sometimes very jungler dependand. apart from that he has everything a midlaner needs while doing some things exceptionally well: burst, mobility, area control and cc.
Also read the guide more carefully. Atrioc allready said everything that needs to be said about KDA and adresses exactly your concerns.
Also, I honestly don't think it's 100% necessary to have magic damage on your team. It certainly can make things easier, but with how strong Black Cleaver and LW are, I honestly think it's not too terrible if your team doesn't have a dedicated magic damage dealer so long as the other team doesn't have Malphite.
On July 12 2013 21:59 GhostOwl wrote: AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC.
Also, wtf does that even mean? Singed/Elise are amazing at getting to the enemy backline and picking them off...
On July 12 2013 21:59 GhostOwl wrote: This is so damn nice. Props to you. Too bad it had to be a guide on mid lane Pantheon. Something that is against my views.
AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC. Additionally, picking AD for your mid makes it so that your entire team is AD unless your top specifically picks AP top. Furthermore, I don't like champs don't scale well into late game. If you get high kill count, you take kills away from your team because you're useless late game. If you don't get a high kill count, you're not doing your job very well and will not have the gold to fully utilize your damage orientated build.
Anyway, Pantheon mid, I don't like/agree with, but your guide is beautiful.
You realise that most AP mid champions also can't sneak in and pick off the enemy ADC...? If anything, Singed is better than the vast majority of mid AP champions at doing so. Also, you can have an AP jungle.
On July 12 2013 21:59 GhostOwl wrote: This is so damn nice. Props to you. Too bad it had to be a guide on mid lane Pantheon. Something that is against my views.
AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC. Additionally, picking AD for your mid makes it so that your entire team is AD unless your top specifically picks AP top. Furthermore, I don't like champs don't scale well into late game. If you get high kill count, you take kills away from your team because you're useless late game. If you don't get a high kill count, you're not doing your job very well and will not have the gold to fully utilize your damage orientated build.
Anyway, Pantheon mid, I don't like/agree with, but your guide is beautiful.
Yes you can't possibly put a AP top ( akali, rumble elise so on and so forth) and a AP jungle (fidd, elise, amu, diana.. so on. no teams do that.
I have also seen creative teams put a ap bot wiht the support. So yes you can do things sligtly diff then the meta, and AD mid isactually becoming pretty common in this meta.
Next time, read my full post carefully before you quote and make yourself look dumb. I said you CAN put AP top but most are bruisers. And AP jungle is pretty rare compared to AD jungle. AP supports don't get full damage build, and if they do, it takes them too long and won't be relevant until late late game.
On July 12 2013 21:59 GhostOwl wrote: This is so damn nice. Props to you. Too bad it had to be a guide on mid lane Pantheon. Something that is against my views.
AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC. Additionally, picking AD for your mid makes it so that your entire team is AD unless your top specifically picks AP top. Furthermore, I don't like champs don't scale well into late game. If you get high kill count, you take kills away from your team because you're useless late game. If you don't get a high kill count, you're not doing your job very well and will not have the gold to fully utilize your damage orientated build.
Anyway, Pantheon mid, I don't like/agree with, but your guide is beautiful.
You realise that most AP mid champions also can't sneak in and pick off the enemy ADC...? If anything, Singed is better than the vast majority of mid AP champions at doing so. Also, you can have an AP jungle.
Yes but lots of AP mid champs that are mages like Kassadin, Lux, Brand have range and blink that allow them to reach the protected ADC much easier than bruisers like Elise and Singed.
On July 12 2013 21:59 GhostOwl wrote: This is so damn nice. Props to you. Too bad it had to be a guide on mid lane Pantheon. Something that is against my views.
AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC. Additionally, picking AD for your mid makes it so that your entire team is AD unless your top specifically picks AP top. Furthermore, I don't like champs don't scale well into late game. If you get high kill count, you take kills away from your team because you're useless late game. If you don't get a high kill count, you're not doing your job very well and will not have the gold to fully utilize your damage orientated build.
Anyway, Pantheon mid, I don't like/agree with, but your guide is beautiful.
Yes you can't possibly put a AP top ( akali, rumble elise so on and so forth) and a AP jungle (fidd, elise, amu, diana.. so on. no teams do that.
I have also seen creative teams put a ap bot wiht the support. So yes you can do things sligtly diff then the meta, and AD mid isactually becoming pretty common in this meta.
Next time, read my full post carefully before you quote and make yourself look dumb. I said you CAN put AP top but most are bruisers. And AP jungle is pretty rare compared to AD jungle. AP supports don't get full damage build, and if they do, it takes them too long and won't be relevant until late late game.
On July 12 2013 21:59 GhostOwl wrote: This is so damn nice. Props to you. Too bad it had to be a guide on mid lane Pantheon. Something that is against my views.
AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC. Additionally, picking AD for your mid makes it so that your entire team is AD unless your top specifically picks AP top. Furthermore, I don't like champs don't scale well into late game. If you get high kill count, you take kills away from your team because you're useless late game. If you don't get a high kill count, you're not doing your job very well and will not have the gold to fully utilize your damage orientated build.
Anyway, Pantheon mid, I don't like/agree with, but your guide is beautiful.
You realise that most AP mid champions also can't sneak in and pick off the enemy ADC...? If anything, Singed is better than the vast majority of mid AP champions at doing so. Also, you can have an AP jungle.
Yes but lots of AP mid champs that are mages like Kassadin, Lux, Brand have range and blink that allow them to reach the protected ADC much easier than bruisers like Elise and Singed.
And AP jungle is much rarer than AD jungle.
How is AP jungle rare when jungle Elise and Naut are practically FotM right now? (Also jungle Nunu but he's banned almost all the time)
There's just a bunch of AP mid champs that don't care about getting to the back line that are commonly played. For example, Anivia and Ryze don't really care about getting to the back line and they're picked up quite often. I'd argue that TF also probably doesn't care about diving either although he can. Then you also have a ton of AD mids that have equal or stronger diving capabilities like Zed and Kha'zix.
I also really really disagree with your assessment that it's easier for AP mids to get to the backline than bruisers. Half of the time bruisers are supposed to be harassing the backline in teamfights. It's entirely why some bruisers are better than others; because they can reach the backline better than others. Also, saying Elise has a hard time diving is just silly. If you can't get to the enemy back line with your Rappel then the enemy back line is probably too far away from the fight to be a threat.
Solo mid Panth has its weaknesses; no one is going to argue against that. But being AD is not one of them.
On July 12 2013 21:59 GhostOwl wrote: This is so damn nice. Props to you. Too bad it had to be a guide on mid lane Pantheon. Something that is against my views.
AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC. Additionally, picking AD for your mid makes it so that your entire team is AD unless your top specifically picks AP top. Furthermore, I don't like champs don't scale well into late game. If you get high kill count, you take kills away from your team because you're useless late game. If you don't get a high kill count, you're not doing your job very well and will not have the gold to fully utilize your damage orientated build.
Anyway, Pantheon mid, I don't like/agree with, but your guide is beautiful.
Yes you can't possibly put a AP top ( akali, rumble elise so on and so forth) and a AP jungle (fidd, elise, amu, diana.. so on. no teams do that.
I have also seen creative teams put a ap bot wiht the support. So yes you can do things sligtly diff then the meta, and AD mid isactually becoming pretty common in this meta.
Next time, read my full post carefully before you quote and make yourself look dumb. I said you CAN put AP top but most are bruisers. And AP jungle is pretty rare compared to AD jungle. AP supports don't get full damage build, and if they do, it takes them too long and won't be relevant until late late game.
On July 12 2013 21:59 GhostOwl wrote: This is so damn nice. Props to you. Too bad it had to be a guide on mid lane Pantheon. Something that is against my views.
AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC. Additionally, picking AD for your mid makes it so that your entire team is AD unless your top specifically picks AP top. Furthermore, I don't like champs don't scale well into late game. If you get high kill count, you take kills away from your team because you're useless late game. If you don't get a high kill count, you're not doing your job very well and will not have the gold to fully utilize your damage orientated build.
Anyway, Pantheon mid, I don't like/agree with, but your guide is beautiful.
You realise that most AP mid champions also can't sneak in and pick off the enemy ADC...? If anything, Singed is better than the vast majority of mid AP champions at doing so. Also, you can have an AP jungle.
Yes but lots of AP mid champs that are mages like Kassadin, Lux, Brand have range and blink that allow them to reach the protected ADC much easier than bruisers like Elise and Singed.
And AP jungle is much rarer than AD jungle.
So mid champions like Ryze, Orianna, Malzahar, Cass, Morgana, etc, are just bad champions solely because they can't reach the enemy ADC as well as some...? Also, how do Lux and Brand reach the enemy ADC easier than Singed or Elise? Sure, Lux can poke them or possibly execute with her ult, but it's not like she's in their face doing significant damage to them most of the time. On the other hand, Singed can simply charge at them in the fight, and Elise can use rappel to reach them.
On July 12 2013 21:59 GhostOwl wrote: This is so damn nice. Props to you. Too bad it had to be a guide on mid lane Pantheon. Something that is against my views.
AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC. Additionally, picking AD for your mid makes it so that your entire team is AD unless your top specifically picks AP top. Furthermore, I don't like champs don't scale well into late game. If you get high kill count, you take kills away from your team because you're useless late game. If you don't get a high kill count, you're not doing your job very well and will not have the gold to fully utilize your damage orientated build.
Anyway, Pantheon mid, I don't like/agree with, but your guide is beautiful.
Yes you can't possibly put a AP top ( akali, rumble elise so on and so forth) and a AP jungle (fidd, elise, amu, diana.. so on. no teams do that.
I have also seen creative teams put a ap bot wiht the support. So yes you can do things sligtly diff then the meta, and AD mid isactually becoming pretty common in this meta.
Next time, read my full post carefully before you quote and make yourself look dumb. I said you CAN put AP top but most are bruisers. And AP jungle is pretty rare compared to AD jungle. AP supports don't get full damage build, and if they do, it takes them too long and won't be relevant until late late game.
On July 13 2013 09:19 GolemMadness wrote:
On July 12 2013 21:59 GhostOwl wrote: This is so damn nice. Props to you. Too bad it had to be a guide on mid lane Pantheon. Something that is against my views.
AP carry (mid) cannot be picked for your team, and most AP tops are bruisers like Singed / Elise that cannot sneak and pick off enemy ADC. Additionally, picking AD for your mid makes it so that your entire team is AD unless your top specifically picks AP top. Furthermore, I don't like champs don't scale well into late game. If you get high kill count, you take kills away from your team because you're useless late game. If you don't get a high kill count, you're not doing your job very well and will not have the gold to fully utilize your damage orientated build.
Anyway, Pantheon mid, I don't like/agree with, but your guide is beautiful.
You realise that most AP mid champions also can't sneak in and pick off the enemy ADC...? If anything, Singed is better than the vast majority of mid AP champions at doing so. Also, you can have an AP jungle.
Yes but lots of AP mid champs that are mages like Kassadin, Lux, Brand have range and blink that allow them to reach the protected ADC much easier than bruisers like Elise and Singed.
And AP jungle is much rarer than AD jungle.
So mid champions like Ryze, Orianna, Malzahar, Cass, Morgana, etc, are just bad champions solely because they can't reach the enemy ADC as well as some...? Also, how do Lux and Brand reach the enemy ADC easier than Singed or Elise? Sure, Lux can poke them or possibly execute with her ult, but it's not like she's in their face doing significant damage to them most of the time. On the other hand, Singed can simply charge at them in the fight, and Elise can use rappel to reach them.
Imagine ADC in the backline, protected by his teammates. If you use Rappel to reach the enemy ADC, his teammates are gonna pummel you before you can even get a full combo out. Even if you did manage to kill one enemy, you can't get out because you just used your rappel. Same with Singed, he can reach the enemy adc but he's tanky so he can take the beating. But he can't necessarily assassinate the ADC, he can get them a bit closer to your team by flinging them. Imagine ranged AP mids like Brand or Lux. They can execute their full combo without getting too close to the other teammates.
Many AP champs are good at burst rather than sustained damage (exceptions can be made to champs like Vlad, Swain, etc) That burst is what kills the enemy ADC because his teammates cannot react in time AND burst is better since ADC has good lifesteal. Sure, some AD champs have that burst like Kha'zix but most AD champs that have that burst don't have the range like most AP mages do. So in essence, you can't survive long enough to be useful because you're not a tank.
I never said champs like Ryze, Ori, Cass, Malz, Morg are bad. They can be good with the right team compositions. I prefer them over Pantheon mid, is all I said.
TLDR version : AP mid mages are better than AD mids because they have the range AND the burst (usually) to kill the enemy ADC. Some exceptions can be made to champs like Swain / Vlad but they have their roles with the right team composition.
I think you're being WAY too narrow minded about what valid mids are and what they need to bring to a team. Mid Pantheon fills a role somewhere partway between Mid Zed and Mid TF.
Also even Lux's full burst combo is nowhere near the damage that an assassin like Elise, Zed, Pantheon can lay onto someone. She runs out of cooldowns, but when autoattacks are a valid time-filler, you never really run out of damage.
If you play Elise, you understand that there's a right and a wrong time to rappel onto the enemy ADC and go for an assassinate on them, so don't even bother describing the situation where it's clearly the wrong time to rappel onto the enemy ADC, because the situation you describe is basically initiating a teamfight with rappel.
You don't even necessarily need someone on the team who "has the job of blowing up the adc" if you can rip through their front line proficiently.
Oh god, I remember that blog. As much as I would think it's kind of unfair to attack someone's character like this (and it's unrelated to the thread) GhostOwl does seem like a very...'controversial' personality so maybe it's best to take his posting with a grain of salt.
Oh god, I remember that blog. As much as I would think it's kind of unfair to attack someone's character like this (and it's unrelated to the thread) GhostOwl does seem like a very...'controversial' personality so maybe it's best to take his posting with a grain of salt.
I wouldn't say I'm attacking him, I'm just pointing out that GhostOwl may not be someone who is easily swayed in his opinions, and therefore saving this thread from falling into a weird tangent discussion. I think a huge portion of the appeal of TL LoL is how much we emphasize people as members of a community and not just anonymous names.
New Diamond 1 Pantheon Game with Commentary! Got hungry for some more D1 Pantheon VOD's, so I threw all my advice on drafting out the window and just first picked him blind. This game is vs. Katarina and showcases the splitpush style of Pantheon and how effective it can be in forcing the opponent to make a mistake. Part 1:
On July 12 2013 00:55 Sandster wrote: Thanks for your videos, but it's hard to rely on 2 kills before 6 minutes to crush your lane like that. After you came back with tear AND 2 longswords, and Ryze only had tear, the lane was over, so the rest of the video wasn't as interesting.
Eve, being fairly dumb, ganked when Ryze was level 1 instead of getting red to hit 3 and/or waiting for Ryze to get 2 more creeps for level 2. Would you have backed off when Ryze is about to hit 2 in order to avoid that? When do you start chucking spears again? Eve at 3 + Ryze at 3 has very high kill potential.
You killed Ryze with Zac's help when Eve wasn't in position to countergank. How would you have handled lane if 1) you didn't get FB gold, and 2) didn't get a kill there? You both would have came back to lane with a tear about even, and had no pink ward for Eve.
I hope the above video helps a bit in showing some different situations!
As to the questions, for 1) the FB gold did not help me in lane at all since I wasn't able to back after getting it - in fact, it really hurt me since I had no flash or ignite to be aggressive with in the early levels and drew early jungler attention. It wasnt able to kick in until after I got another kill on my lane opponent, so all it did was enhance my snowball. If I hadn't got the FB on Varus the entire lane would have been different because of how much threat I could put out starting at level 2.
2) I would never be afraid of a blue Eve level 2 gank (she actually came twice, once when ryze DID have W and it didnt change anything). If everything had gone completely standard then around when Ryze is turning level 3 and I know that Eve would be done with her red I will play passively until the very second I see Eve show up in some other lane then go agressive again. Theres no situation I dont see myself having a gold advantage of some sort on teleport Ryze for our respective first backs
Forgive me if I"m way off base - but with the tone of the questions I get the vibe that you are essentially saying "you wouldn't have done as good if the enemy played better", which is pretty self-explanatory. The closer they get to perfect play the less I have to work with, but I don't think that's the right way to think about it for solo queue. They will make mistakes - a billion of them - and your job is to find them.
On July 12 2013 03:34 daredpanda wrote: how would you lane vs a Oriana? I find that she zones me out alot!!!
Clickrush had a great response and the key words from it were: "Be Brave" - you have to assert yourself pretty early on in this lane and make EXCELLENT use of your passive since her damage is like entirely auto attacks early. By pressuring her heavily early you force her to make tough choices like how to itemize for armor (which you are pressuring her into) and mana (which orianna desperately needs) at the same time. If she comes back with a chalice and you come back with something like a dblade + long sword theres just no way she can compete.
On July 15 2013 13:07 LoCicero wrote: Beautiful write-up bud. I am honored to be mentioned. Glad you're having fun with him. =)
Also, you might want to mention Yorick as someone that will dominate him in lane. Other than that, looks good to me!
EPT
