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Updated the thread. I wasn't sure how to put BotRK in a laning Vi build as the current one seems solid but doesn't get too much room to put the BotRK in a typical timing.
More thoughts about skill order :
- W's damage increase between level 1 and level 5 goes from 66% to 150%, making it much more desirable to level up. The more levels you put into it, the closer you are to its pre-nerf power, so the less desirable it is to keep leveling it up.
- Q is still desirable for clearing speed and mobility, as it gains damage and cd reduction, which more than halves its level 1 cd.
- E is used almost solely for the auto reset (and sniping), so the cd reductionis the significant part, and it's weaker than Q here while not benefiting as much damage-wise.
Q and W gain much, much more from being leveled, so a Q>W>E or Q > 3 points in W > E > finish W skill order seems way better in the jungle. In lane you still need some reduction on E because you can't harass/trade with Q or force W procs easily, so... 3-4 levels in E > Q > W > finish E or something along those lines?
If some of you lane Vi don't hesitate to drop experiences, impressions or just straight up knowledge about match-ups, playstyle and builds, as this part is still as speculative as ever.
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I cant wait to try out the new botrk on vi. It's gona be legen... Wait for it....
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DARY!
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On March 03 2013 07:20 Alaric wrote:
Updated the thread. I wasn't sure how to put BotRK in a laning Vi build as the current one seems solid but doesn't get too much room to put the BotRK in a typical timing.
More thoughts about skill order :
- W's damage increase between level 1 and level 5 goes from 66% to 150%, making it much more desirable to level up. The more levels you put into it, the closer you are to its pre-nerf power, so the less desirable it is to keep leveling it up.
- Q is still desirable for clearing speed and mobility, as it gains damage and cd reduction, which more than halves its level 1 cd.
- E is used almost solely for the auto reset (and sniping), so the cd reductionis the significant part, and it's weaker than Q here while not benefiting as much damage-wise.
Q and W gain much, much more from being leveled, so a Q>W>E or Q > 3 points in W > E > finish W skill order seems way better in the jungle. In lane you still need some reduction on E because you can't harass/trade with Q or force W procs easily, so... 3-4 levels in E > Q > W > finish E or something along those lines?
If some of you lane Vi don't hesitate to drop experiences, impressions or just straight up knowledge about match-ups, playstyle and builds, as this part is still as speculative as ever.
I have been experimenting with lane vi since she came out. And from what I deduced so far - is that in certain matchups you will have to max Q while in others, E. Like vs Renekton I liked E first better. Against Kayle/Akali I like Q better (but keep in mind that in maxing Q first - if you miss a Q, you gonna lose the trade hard). But if you wanna play safer - E is still the best imo. And rushing botrk is a viable option but, I would advise against it - as during that phase you are better off getting Arpen or something. But I will try it out a bit more and see how it goes.
Oh and Keep in mind that Vi isn't nearly as strong in lane as she is in da jangle. So be prepared to be defensive if you lose an exchange - and if you are in an unwinnable lane you will just have to wait till 6 and make sure to land max range Q to initiate.
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BotRK is so silly for soloing drake wtf. And the damage, both dps and burst, when ganking is... yeah, wtf. I'll play some more games trying a spirit stone + boots -> BotRK -> randuin's build, but if it's viable then it'll probably become the best damage and tanky jungle build until BotRK gets fixed. Randuin's gives HP to survive burst along with your shield, active and passive to stick to targets despite not having a phage-item, and if you slap a Tabi on top of it you'll laugh off the efforts of people rushing BotRK themselves hoping to crush you.
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So what are people building these days? I went on a long honeymoon with J4 and now that I'm back to my jungle mistress I feel out of place. The phage>Stinger>FM core feels super clunky. =[
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People don't build her 'cause she's permabanned. Apart from that, I see the bruta/Lizard spirit core much more often.
I tried rushing BotRK, before and after the hotfix, but it feels like it doesn't give as much burst as the usual damage core, while the increase in dps compared to the tanky core isn't good enough to offset how squishy it leaves you, especially after the hotfix and how much gold you are from building survivability in the midgame. I went back to the tanky core and didn't feel it was clunky, but maybe that's because it clicks much better with my playstyle.
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On March 06 2013 08:27 Alaric wrote:
People don't build her 'cause she's permabanned. Apart from that, I see the bruta/Lizard spirit core much more often.
I tried rushing BotRK, before and after the hotfix, but it feels like it doesn't give as much burst as the usual damage core, while the increase in dps compared to the tanky core isn't good enough to offset how squishy it leaves you, especially after the hotfix and how much gold you are from building survivability in the midgame. I went back to the tanky core and didn't feel it was clunky, but maybe that's because it clicks much better with my playstyle.
At my little section of silver, she's rarely banned. I can never decide when to get boots2, often get stuck with ruby/sword, or in that horrible gap between stinger and giant's belt that takes forever.
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I personally complete Tabi before Phage, my first back is usually Tabi+ either Ruby or Sword though I'm playing around with inserting a Spirit Stone more or less early in the build (and I'll admit it, it makes spamming so much easier, I wouldn't have thought from only 7 mp5).
I really feel a surge of power when buying Stinger after Phage (if I manage to get a kill or a drake soon after I complete Phage I can usually get the Stinger in one go), but there's usually a time where I'll feel more or less squishy, depending on how early I've managed to reach Stinger (the earlier, then the earlier I should get Belt too and thus the amount of time I'll be waiting on it while enemy solo lanes may reach their peak levels/complete a big item will be shorter). I guess you could say it's momentum-dependant.
I have skipped Stinger entirely in games where I would desperately need more tankiness earlier (most notably games against double AP because of the burst potential and you can't really rush Tabi and call it a day) and I assume I would run into similar situations if I was to fall behind early in the jungle (never happened so far).
On the other hand (I'm silver I in ranked and get 1-2 Gold players, rest Silver or not playing ranked, in my normal draft teams on average, fwiw regarding bans), I'm still at a pretty low level, and the laning phase definitely tends to last longer than in high level or competitive games. I'm more used to it and my style came to revolve around that average length out of habit, but faster-paced, more aggressive games could reveal timing issues in such a core build that I haven't been faced with.
I was thinking Monte (who was the one to come up with the Stinger idea) could give input on it from a different perspective, but apparently he's in Silver I too (no idea how Silver I compares between EUW and NA though), I thought it was higher than that.
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What is the correct order to buy items for vi I have been going machete/pots -->spirt stone and boots1--->brutalizer-->boots2-->>>finish lizard.
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lizard/bruta/boots 2 is too much offense imo.
I get lizard asap and rush locket/FM/warmogs
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I go mach/5 pots > boots > spirit stone > giants belt > pickaxe > spirit of the eldar lizard > upgrade boots > finish FM
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If you wanted to go more gank happy would u get phage in place of giants belt to stick better?
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On March 28 2013 06:29 IamPryda wrote:
If you wanted to go more gank happy would u get phage in place of giants belt to stick better?
If you wanted to be more ganky i would get the fast bruta, phage is in a pretty inefficient spot right now, the bruta damage will make for much scarier ganks. Hoping for a 25% proc in a gank is really chancy when often you only get 2-3 autos and if you land all that they should be dead and the 30% slow is irrelevant. Use that ad scaling and just get the bruta, speeds jungle and makes her more mobile with the cdr as well.
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On March 28 2013 06:29 IamPryda wrote:
If you wanted to go more gank happy would u get phage in place of giants belt to stick better?
With the S3 nerfs to Phage, it puts you in a place where you're behind on stats for even cost, not all that tanky, not all that burst, and hoping for a proc. Phage is all around meh meh meh right now.
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Been getting Locket over Phage these days. 10% CDR on Kindlegem early on is pretty useful in many situations. Also, a Long Sword + Kindlegem is cheaper than a Phage so you can throw in 2 wards and a potion as well.
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On March 29 2013 04:00 divinesage wrote:
Been getting Locket over Phage these days. 10% CDR on Kindlegem early on is pretty useful in many situations. Also, a Long Sword + Kindlegem is cheaper than a Phage so you can throw in 2 wards and a potion as well.
What's your average end game items look like with locket? Is zephyr/ locket a good combo
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2 hits (pretty easy if you hit a Q, you'll get a hit -> E follow-up) is around 43% chances to proc phage. It's still kinda low, and you can use red buff too and plan around ganking more heavily while it's up.
I haven't played Vi for awhile, I wonder how Zephyr goes now, it's smoother to build, but it's not like it's an item that you whould want to rush early on anyway, as Tenacity is the only defensive stat it sports, and the damage is better as dps than as burst, and when building Vi for dps you should aim at getting tanky first I believe.
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On March 29 2013 06:54 IamPryda wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 04:00 divinesage wrote:
Been getting Locket over Phage these days. 10% CDR on Kindlegem early on is pretty useful in many situations. Also, a Long Sword + Kindlegem is cheaper than a Phage so you can throw in 2 wards and a potion as well. What's your average end game items look like with locket? Is zephyr/ locket a good combo
I think Zephyr seems a little too expensive for its utility on Vi, getting BotRK is more cost efficient. That being said I like to end up tanky late game so its usually Warmogs, Lizard/Golem, Locket, Cleaver, Bulwark/Randuins. It's gonna be near impossible to end up with those items anyway.
I think if you'd like to go more aggressive you can switch out the Bulwark/Randuins for a Tri Force or BotRK.
Ending up with a Giant's Belt, Locket, Lizard and Brutalizer usually gives you the utility needed for most games, my games usually end around this point.
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I have been going ninja boots with vi vs some ad compositions and find That zephyr is pretty good place to get that tenacity while being a pretty good item overall.
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The build I've been really enjoying so far (jungle) has been
Spirit stone -> boots -> bruta -> Spirit of the Golem -> Whatever tanking items I need(aegis usually) or finish BC
I used to toy with getting tankier before grabbing the bruta (or even no damage items at all) but I find early on, the burst damage just a brutalizer provides usually lets you pose enough of a threat in ganks that fighting you is not an option. I go golem spirit because you really need some tankiness after the brutalizer and I usually end up with a kindle gem anyway. The tenacity it provides also lets you go ninja tabi which I feel scales much better defensively (compared to mercs) into the mid/late game. An alternate choice is mobility boots but I rarely get them as they don't feel quite as powerful as on other junglers.
The other build I've been trying out has been
Spirit stone -> boots -> Lizard Spirit -> Some combo of Locket/Randuins/mercs
This one is pretty similar to the first since you end up with spiritstone/boots/2xlongsword and it's basically a choice between brutalizer and lizard as your damage item. Lizard hits a bit harder imo but you're forced into mercs for the tenacity. I guess it's not really a problem if you don't value tenacity but I find even with your ult getting you through the initial cluster of CC, the moment you dive onto an important target you just get cc'd down. I've considered getting Zephyr afterwards but going Lizard spirit+ Zephyr leaves you too flimsy to really live long enough to wreak havoc. Plus, I personally feel that attack speed and movement speed are both cost inefficient stats on Vi compared to flat damage and defensive stats.
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EPT
