EPTVi's jungling is definitely infinitely better though.
[Champion] Vi - Page 2
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Serelitz
Netherlands2895 Posts
Vi's jungling is definitely infinitely better though. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
The starting items part can certainly be refined too, some of them are probably hyper-situational (full-consumables), or not frequent/adapted to her playstyle (cloth, flask) and if you look at it it's pretty obvious what I wrote was closer to a generic placeholder than to specific Vi advice. On February 18 2013 04:58 zulu_nation8 wrote: e resets your autos If we only take E for the auto reset (the biggest part of which is applying Denting Blows faster, which Q can do too), then it again comes down to CDR. Unless you are caught unaware in your jungle, the river, or while counterjungling (and using your Es to try and burst the camp/buff down), you should always have at least one charge of E when you encounter a foe, and potentially a second one. In those cases I agree that having a shorter reload time grants you a better immediate retaliating capability. While the reload time is longer at level 1, when you plan to do a big camp or to gank soon then you should be able to manage your E charges so that you'll have 2 by the time you reach the camp/lane—if you can't, then I'd consider maxing E a crutch rather than the best course of action. In those cases, Q will have a 15.5 -> 8s cd, while E has a 12.5 -> 8s reload time. Those are pretty damn close and except for the cases where you can walk up to your target, auto->E him, have him blow Flash/an escape and only then use Q, both skills should get back up around the same time. Q can apply Denting Blows too, reaching farther, though it probably does less damage if not charged. However, having a second Q cast also allows to move around the fight, be it to switch targets or to run away if the gank goes fubar. It also gives more safety when counterjungling/avoiding wards by jumping walls, and it is also definitely better damage if you can charge it. Another point to argue in the skill order is maxing W over E, though: I'll freely admit that around level 13-14 where fights start to last longer and scatter around I can feel constricted by the longer cd on E after I already used Q to catch up to a fugitive/knock-back a diver/etc. and I need to burst people down. On the other hand I'm not sure that I'd get people that low to begin with if I maxed E and my 2-3 first procs of Denting Blows dealt only half as much damage, so it's possibly a bias. PS: I just edited the guide, adding some random stuff and most notably pictures for wall jumping/ward bypassing, and detailing the reasoning for maxing Q first in the jungle + alternatives to the tanky jungle core build when most of the enemy composition does magic damage. The jump spots should actually be fairly known but in case the pictures aren't clear enough, or too small, don't hesitate to notify me. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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Broetchenholer
Germany1967 Posts
I mean, yeah, if they have an all physical-damage team, sure, Tabis, but that's an if, right? | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On February 20 2013 02:27 Broetchenholer wrote: Why are you guys building Tabis on here? By the time you have them, you should already take zero damage from camps due to your passive and regen of the spirit stone. Considering boots, i tested boots3 lately, because the passive made me more mobile while charging my Q. Seemed alright. Dunno whether it's worth though. I mean, yeah, if they have an all physical-damage team, sure, Tabis, but that's an if, right? I think it's a "most commonly this is the right call" type thing. Like how all top builds through most of last year had Mercs as the default. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Now with boots often not bought until later (tops even tend to skip them until they can buy the boots2 in one sitting in my experience) we're looking at a 45 MS base differential where we had 20 in s2. Vi relying a lot on being able to keep up with people and punching them, rushing boots2 so fast allows her to deal more damage to laners surviving her initial burst during ganks, while adding mobility for counter-jungling on top of Vault Breaker. Tabi used to cost 350 less gold than Mercs in s2, which is a lot so early in the game. In s3 it's only 200 gold less but it's still non-negligible. Add to that that building Stinger doesn't get us "stuck" since we don't risk wasting Zephyr's tenacity, and finally, that Tabi's passive also works on minions, reducing greatly the damage incurred during early ganks, especially top and bot (and mid when it's an AD champ). The armour compounds on this and also works during towerdives. Finally, about the spirit stone I'm not fond of the item because Vi doesn't need it to instaclear the jungle (machete is enough until later, when golems and buffs actually take more than Q -> auto -> E and a few additional autos to die). I'll admit that sometimes I get carried away and find myself a bit short on mana, and I'd certainly back less if I had it, but it's still 400 gold dumped in non-combat stats. When I just complete Tabi I'm ready to go 1 on 1 against most junglers even in their own jungle, especially if they started Spirit Stone. I checked the wiki and noticed that selling Stone makes you lose 140 gold, compared to the 180 you lose after selling Machete. Maybe I'll give it a chance later (esp. around the first dragon attempt or when I pass over the blue buff, after completing Phage) but as an opening item I really dislike the lack of combat stats, and "wasting" Butcher's improvement since Vi doesn't need it. TL;DR: Tabi is cheaper movespeed, has an amazing passive for early ganks and dives (esp. against physical laners), makes me stronger 1v1 than junglers going Spirit Stone or sometimes Madred's, and I plan to get Tenacity from another source later on. It lacks the mp5 though and isn't as good when attempting early drakes. But yeah against heavy magic damage or double AP comps I tend to skip Stinger and replace it with mercs+wit's (I just buy NMM+Recurve so I don't delay Phage too much, and I combine them later for some more MR). | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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Broetchenholer
Germany1967 Posts
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divinesage
Singapore649 Posts
What do you guys think if Vi maxes R>W>Q>E first instead of R>E>Q>W? My train of thought is since my playstyle of Vi's probably gonna get Warmog's first, W becomes stronger than E early on. Although the long cooldown time on a level 1 E might be a problem. EDIT: Alternatively what do you guys think about maxing W first then levelling both Q and E at the same time? | ||
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divinesage
Singapore649 Posts
On February 20 2013 18:29 Broetchenholer wrote: I am currently building machete+5 into spiritstone + boots1, followed by a brutalizer and swifties afterwards. I feel like that allows me to hit like a truck shortly before laning is over, to maximise ganks before teamfighting starts. After that, i start building Warmogs, so that i do have the hp to survive the teamfights that will come next. Your core of Tabis + Stinger + Phage is a bit more expensive, you get more dueling power, but you lose burst. And i would say that you need more of the latter. With the amout of escapes on popular laners these days, it's kind of hard to stay on the target and if the opponent can just jump away, the slow wil not do that much. I really like the swifties, they make it impossible for opponents to run away IF you have your Q up. With Mercs, people would often outrun me while i charge the Q. Does not happen anymore. Why not Madred's over Spirit stone? Vi doesn't really need the health and mana regen. I think Madred's armour + faster clearing time benefits her better. | ||
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chalice
United States1945 Posts
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divinesage
Singapore649 Posts
On March 01 2013 15:22 chalice wrote: vi's abilities are what destroys camps, can't see how madreds would make her clear faster, the regen will give you more hp and mana to gank or farm, and both the ad and tank spirit stone upgrades are solid items on her. Essentially because the jungle now is more single target focused, so Madred's will cut down the farming time of the large monster in each camp. She really isn't mana tight and I'd rather buy 2 potions to make up for the health regen loss from Spirit stone. Also, if I grab Madred's at level 4 it means I'll have 25 extra armour for me to gank lanes/survive a counter gank. | ||
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LeoOfGeneral
United States6 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On March 01 2013 14:59 divinesage wrote: I don't like the Vi jungle nerfs. What do you guys think if Vi maxes R>W>Q>E first instead of R>E>Q>W? My train of thought is since my playstyle of Vi's probably gonna get Warmog's first, W becomes stronger than E early on. Although the long cooldown time on a level 1 E might be a problem. EDIT: Alternatively what do you guys think about maxing W first then levelling both Q and E at the same time? I always went Q>W>E. Mallet/max Q makes you near impossible to slip away from even without your ult. I think I read somebody say that charged Q, while maxing it, ends up dealing more damage than max E when starting a camp. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
W is well-targeted imo, as it reduces the early burst potential of a "damage Vi" maxing Q and E first and building AD, and her ability to rush early drakes with minimal help, while not impacting her later game or players gunning for dps who max W faster. I'm just a bit annoyed that she actually won't kill little monsters with 3 hits anymore, makes keeping W up harder and a solitary clear longer to take off at level 1.  She should especially take more damage on red buff, even after a smiteless leash on blue.Overall a charged Q and E's AoE damage is enough to destroy most of a camp's health, so combined with her W %damage and AS buff she didn't need anything more than machete (and even then, mostly early) to tear through the jungle. I'd only want madred's or wriggle's to rush drakes (and now you'll certainly need it), while a spirit stone allows you to be more liberal in your mana usage (especially if you max E) while paving the way for a good tanky item and a good damage item. BotRK is definitely a viable option on lane Vi now, the synergy with W is huge. EU LCS is going on atm so I'm "busy", but once it's done (say 9-10 hours from now) I'll update the OP and add that little section about boots and machete items we talked about last time. (And I'll have to actually play her some to update the descriptions. I hope she's not going to keep being permabanned, dudes all ban her letting Xin open. >>) Edit: 'k ESL sucks so I'm running customs to test her first clear. Before: AS/AD WEQ, E max: 4:06, 560 HP no pots WEQ, Q max: 4:05, 580 HP no pots Q max gave me 4:18 and... 430 HP. I actually didn't take that much more damage from red, but Wolves and Blue are definitely a lot slower (I could come back to wolves after wraiths 5s in advance pre-patch, now they actually respawn before I get there). AD/AD WEQ, E max: 4:09, 690 HP no pots WEQ, Q max: 4:09, 630 HP no pots (I took a bit more damage at wraiths because of positioning, should be 20-30 HP higher) 4:18, 470 HP, I dropped pretty low and burnt my potions even faster. | ||
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Broetchenholer
Germany1967 Posts
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divinesage
Singapore649 Posts
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ArchAngelSC
England706 Posts
 Makes me sad. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On March 02 2013 01:02 divinesage wrote: I tend to leave her with just madred's, she doesn't really need lantern. I'd prefer that extra money go directly to health. That being said I see her becoming more of a tanky jungler now, max W last and go full health? I think them nerfing early levels of W only gives more incentive to max it second. | ||
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