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United States47024 Posts
On February 11 2013 08:59 krndandaman wrote:
I've also seen AD carries all start with doran's blade even if their support had no heal. why is that? in my games I usually see 2 pots and a long sword to go vamp scepter unless they are going for a kill lane.
It takes 44 autoattacks for DBlade to catch up to 2 pots in terms of total health provided. That's basically 7 creep waves even if you are ONLY lasthitting, and you will generally autoattack far more than just lasthits--you'll often outheal the amount you would have gotten from potions by the 5-6 minutes mark. DBlade passes Longsword+2Pot in effectiveness extremely quickly.
You're over-valuing the early lifesteal on Vamp Scepter. Early game, when you have sub-100 AD, you're paying 800 gold for 10 AD + <10 HP on attack. DBlade is 10 AD + 80 HP + 5 HP on attack--Vamp's effectiveness is quite poor until you actually have significant autoattack stats to work with, and as such you shouldn't be in such a rush to finish it.
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Not to mention, it's mostly being ran on 2v1 lanes as well. So less risk of getting killed, so immediate pot regeneration isn't always necessary.
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On February 11 2013 08:59 krndandaman wrote:
I just watched curse vs clg and I noticed that both ad carries (kog'maw and caitlyn) went for infinity first. any reason for that? I was under the impression that most if not all carries went for BT first.
I've also seen AD carries all start with doran's blade even if their support had no heal. why is that? in my games I usually see 2 pots and a long sword to go vamp scepter unless they are going for a kill lane.
Also, dorans are popular in 2v1 lanes which happen quite often in pro matches, when you know Dblade will keep you sustained through minor creep aggro and the small amount of harass you'll take, as well as increase your health pool noticeably to prevent you from being bursted on ganks.
However, if you watch the TSM vs CLG game, when Ezreal and Lulu (TSM) were versing Urgot Taric, both ADs started Dblade, though Urgot had the biscuit from support masteries. With just one stun into EQQ combo from Urgot, Ezreal had to back, and left Lulu to hold the lane by herself, which got her killed ~4:30 on a towerdive before Ezreal could return into lane. It's definitely a mistake to go Dblade vs lanes you can be sure you'll take harass if the opponents are smart enough to abuse their 1v2. Even if the support doesn't die, the AD will be behind a bit just from having to go back. Keep in mind though that's merely one example, and by no means did TSM play their lane correctly.
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I'm wondering, as a jungler, is it better to take top tower or bot tower first. I usually play hec or lee sin since they are very different, and both very fun, and I'd like to know, given your druthers, what would be the better tower to take first. Usually I gank the lane that is overpushed with no ward, but if both of them were doing the same thing at the same time, which should I prioritize?
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On February 11 2013 11:52 docvoc wrote:
I'm wondering, as a jungler, is it better to take top tower or bot tower first. I usually play hec or lee sin since they are very different, and both very fun, and I'd like to know, given your druthers, what would be the better tower to take first. Usually I gank the lane that is overpushed with no ward, but if both of them were doing the same thing at the same time, which should I prioritize?
Bot tower. As said earlier in this thread, bot inhib is actually the best inhib to take down to separate teams while trying to do baron, being the longest distance from it. the first tower of both lanes means little, but in the end, bot lane is the best lane to take down to the inhib.
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As ADC how do you properly reset the lane so that the enemy minions are pushing to your side?
Whenever I push to the turret for a reset, it ends up with a small amount of my minions that will interact with the enemy's next wave and I end up pushing to enemy side again.
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It's pretty much impossible to manage more than a soft reset were both fresh minion waves meet in the middle of the lane. The rare case were 2 minion waves of yours will crush into their tower without their minion wave dying is rough to pull off correctly and depends a lot on timings. Better save the time and recall with a soft reset that slightly pushes towards them as the enemy bot lane will return soon anyway and will push back a little naturally.
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I'm wondering, as a jungler, is it better to take top tower or bot tower first. I usually play hec or lee sin since they are very different, and both very fun, and I'd like to know, given your druthers, what would be the better tower to take first. Usually I gank the lane that is overpushed with no ward, but if both of them were doing the same thing at the same time, which should I prioritize?
For the first tower its situational especially in solo q you often dont want to end the laning phase and keep going the best tower to take first is: mid tower always. (if we talk about first/second) Inhib/inhib tower is already answered there is the first one the most important.
As ADC how do you properly reset the lane so that the enemy minions are pushing to your side?
Whenever I push to the turret for a reset, it ends up with a small amount of my minions that will interact with the enemy's next wave and I end up pushing to enemy side again.
Hard push it dont "soft push" you HAVE to have the wave exactly at the enemy tower not infront of it. Be carefull not to recall when a wave stops yours (you can check where the enemy wave botlane is by checking where your wave toplane is). I just assume you are not pushing far enough and it stops slightly before the turret (for example the ranged creeps dont get attacked by the turret only melee, thats not enough!).
I just watched curse vs clg and I noticed that both ad carries (kog'maw and caitlyn) went for infinity first. any reason for that? I was under the impression that most if not all carries went for BT first.
I've also seen AD carries all start with doran's blade even if their support had no heal. why is that? in my games I usually see 2 pots and a long sword to go vamp scepter unless they are going for a kill lane.
People have to realize Dorans blade gives a lot of sustain. You get 5 hp/hit a healpot ist 150 Health that translates into 30 autoattacks = 1 healpot. So to get the exact same health as the healpots give you you need 150*2 -80 which is 220 or 44 autoattacks. Which is less then it sounds. The latest time you will have those 44 autoattacks is when you get 44 cs which you should have around 6 minutes But you usually attack WAY more then 1 auto/cs to harrass push etc. So you most likely have longsword/doublehealth pot outsustained by about 4-5 minutes. There are obviously some situations where you mioght want the double pot but Dorans is really really damn good and I always liked to start dorans + do it on almost any ad/situation
It's pretty much impossible to manage more than a soft reset were both fresh minion waves meet in the middle of the lane. The rare case were 2 minion waves of yours will crush into their tower without their minion wave dying is rough to pull off correctly and depends a lot on timings. Better save the time and recall with a soft reset that slightly pushes towards them as the enemy bot lane will return soon anyway and will push back a little naturally.
That is TERRIBLE advice thats the worst case scenario slightly pushing towards them you will lose so much, they wont lose anything they can freeze the lane and so on, essentially if they play it correctly you are completly fucked. It might work versus lesser opponents but saying that you should always 6 pool on every single map because its easier to pull of is probably less stupid
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On February 11 2013 20:26 R11 wrote:
As ADC how do you properly reset the lane so that the enemy minions are pushing to your side?
Whenever I push to the turret for a reset, it ends up with a small amount of my minions that will interact with the enemy's next wave and I end up pushing to enemy side again.
I believe if you have a cannon in your wave it messes up the reset
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Best case scenario for getting a good recall is to push the wave with a bit delay into the tower in a manner that your wave stops the next (2nd) enemy wave for a while, while it dies to the tower. Needs to stall long enough for your second wave to at least partially die to the tower. The third enemy wave will then team up with the second wave and start pushing towards your tower, while you back in peace. You then get a large wave to farm at your tower with the option of also freezing it there.
The alternative is to hard reset by killing the enemy wave quickly enough as it comes in so your wave dies to the tower before the next wave. Ideally do this before the siege wave (every third wave), so the enemy can't push as fast. This is the way to do it mid usually.
In any case, you push it into the tower, leaving it pushing towards the enemy is the worst thing you can do.
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Thanks for the feedback,
My main concern I think is more or less Ente's second point. How do I properly gauge the lane so that my push creeps won't interact with the next wave.
Let's say I have a medium sized creep wave pushed to enemy turret as I recall back, should a few of these still be alive it will attack the enemy's next wave and I can't reset because my next minion wave will kill his and push the lane again. Or am I looking at this wrong?
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The tower damage is just too high for that to really happen most creeps will be 3/4 shotted so usually its not that big of a deal and most of the time the problem is that people misjudge where the enemy creepwave is and dont push far enough
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is Cho countered by volibear top? How does Cho play the match up?
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On February 13 2013 13:51 nosliw wrote:
is Cho countered by volibear top? How does Cho play the match up?
I don't play cho much but it seems like a normal farm till he can't kill you lane. Just never trade and if he tries to throw you into his wave just cs from a distance with silence and q.
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just got killed by voli. His Frenzy scales with his health and my missing health, so at both 50%, that skill deals 50% more dmg. Insane sudden burst....
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is Cho countered by volibear top? How does Cho play the match up?
No idea, but especially in europe at high elo voli is incredible popular and starts seeing some bans, I would guess that cho should be able to farm though (but this might be wrong)
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On February 14 2013 02:20 Ente wrote:No idea, but especially in europe at high elo voli is incredible popular and starts seeing some bans, I would guess that cho should be able to farm though (but this might be wrong)
I agree, it's key to not allow Voli to get an early lead that allows him to snowball into midgame. If he bullies you and builds a lot of health into the midgame he can be very frightening to go up against. I'd personally call for early ganks from my jungler and maybe even mid to secure a lead or atleast keep it as close as possible.
Since Volis W stacks with a % of your hp missing and deals physical damage you might want to build some early armor against him instead of hp (Glacial shroud into a frozen heart later maybe?), but I haven't tried the matchup enough to get a good feeling about that.
EDIT:
Obviously building health against Voli is not bad since he'd have to poke you more if you have 2.4k hp instead of say 2k hp in order to achieve a 5% bonus to his W. Mixing in more armor early might be worth doing in order to mitigate both his poke and his W was my point above.
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Didn't really play much in between season 2 and season 3 gap but what exactly made it so that things like 7 health pots and a ward (or something of that variety) are now the common opener on most laners that I see against me (apart from AD obviously). Are Boots/3 pots just bad now or something?
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As far as I can tell, because every champ has 25 more movespeed than in season 2 without boots, plus the fact that most junglers have to start machete and not boots, that extra 25 ms that boots gives you just isn't necessary anymore. Also if you start with a ton of pots and your opponent doesn't it makes your lane really easy.
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Sometimes you cancel an auto attack that is mid way. Does this give you 5 hp when running doran's blade? Kind of like how you can stack tear with out actually wasting mana?
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EPT
