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On April 11 2013 00:39 dynwar7 wrote:
Alright I really appreciate the help everyone !
Now...I just want to confirm. Is it true that flat AD rune is better early, wheres Armor penetration is better mid and late game?
Yes. Early game, a slight increase in damage goes a long way, but later, as that small increase remains the same flat amount and other champions get more health and armor, ArPen runes will give you the ability to punch through a % of armor, meaning that as enemies get more armor(lategame), ArPen runes just straight up outclass all AD runes.
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On April 11 2013 00:39 dynwar7 wrote:
Alright I really appreciate the help everyone !
Now...I just want to confirm. Is it true that flat AD rune is better early, wheres Armor penetration is better mid and late game?
Eh... even that's too broad of a statement to make and a rather deep rabbit hole. Armor penetration is a damage multiplier but how much it's multiplying your damage varies based on how much armor the enemy target has. Early game, it's a pretty decent sized multiplier on low-armor targets, but it's a good multiplier of a small damage number. As the game goes on, it becomes a smaller multiplier, but it's multiplying against a bigger damage number.
What it ends up being is, Armor Pen is good if you have very high base damage (This usually means you have damage abilities which add significant amounts of damage), and don't need significant additional damage on creeps to assist you in CS. (You can't penetrate armor below 0.)
It isn't until after you buy a Last Whisper (or another large source of percent penetration) that Armor Penetration runes ALWAYS outperform Attack damage. The thing is, runes are most noticable in the early levels - ultimately, who cares if your runes are giving you +3-5 more damage after you spend 10k gold on items? Having more damage when you had no items will probably have earned you a bit more gold by this point anyway.
Especially for new players, I STRONGLY recommend AD over Armor Penetration in all cases. If it earns you a mere 10 CS that you would have missed without it, by the 30 minute mark, it's totally encompassed the Armor Pen anyway.
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1. What is the limit of ArPen you can have? I know LW gives 35 right? Plus I am looking at these runes, and I think they give 1.28 ar pen?
2. Eh, also, ALL armor penetration is pure numbers, not percentage, is this correct? I have this feeling that I have seen some ArPen in numbers (such as the rune I said above, that gives 1.28 ArPen)and at the same time I think LW gives you....35 %, which makes it confusing?
3. So when it says +1.28 ArPen, does it basically mean that if the enemy has 2.28 armor, I will ignore 1.28 of that? Is it this simple?
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On April 11 2013 00:51 dynwar7 wrote:
What is the limit of ArPen you can have? I know LW gives 35 right? Plus I am looking at these runes, and I think they give 1.28 ar pen?
Eh, also, ALL armor penetration is pure numbers, not percentage, is this correct? I have this feeling that I have seen some ArPen in numbers (such as the rune I said above, that gives 1.28 ArPen)and at the same time I think LW gives you....35 %, which makes it confusing?
That's right, Last Whisper is percentage pen, but you can only get flat from runes and not percent. (There's the 8% Armor Pen Mastery, though.)
On a 200 armor target, Last Whisper penetrates 35% of 200, which is 70 armor. You treat that target as if they had 130 armor.
If you also have 10 flat armor penetration, you treat that target as if they had 120 armor.
Further information on how penetration works.
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor_penetration
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Edited my last post  regarding how simple ArPen really is. Basically if I have 50 arpen, does it simply mean I take out 50 armor from my target?
And.....well, I love Zed. What do you recommend for him? I am really considering energy recovery runes...is it worth it on him?
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On April 11 2013 00:54 dynwar7 wrote:Edited my last post regarding how simple ArPen really is. Basically if I have 50 arpen, does it simply mean I take out 50 armor from my target? And.....well, I love Zed. What do you recommend for him? I am really considering energy recovery runes...is it worth it on him?
They're extremely expensive and they're deceptively weaker than they look. It's hard to argue with a free cloth armor, especially on someone like Zed who is surprisingly easy to bully. I also like zed, but as you play him more you'll get used to managing the energy on him (he's easily the most energy intensive of the energy champs and I STILL wouldn't run energy regen on him. Get used to the energy return mechanic on your W, it's pretty beast.)
Also, runes come in 3 prices - Cheap runes are 205 (510 for quints), middle-cost runes are 410 (1025 for quints), and expensive runes are 820 (2050 for quints.) All Energy-related runes are in this "Really friggin expensive" category.
These prices are largely independent of how good the runes are (see: Armor runes are used on like 90% of runepages in existence, and are in the cheap tier.)
Go with the Flat AD page I suggested. Remember his W passive multiplies AD, too, so you'll hit like a truck!
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How do you lane as Jax against Renekton? You can't fight him early, and even later I'm having trouble initiating trades on him with his kit. If I try to E or EQ him h'll just Slice away, and if he tries to engage on me he'll stun me, and even if I preemptively E he'll have the time to stun -> slice away (or dice if he used slice to engage). I'm not sure what's the goal apart from letting him push to tower, getting whatever farm you can, and wait till 6 and your first major item (or something like Phage) to start trying trades.
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On April 11 2013 00:54 dynwar7 wrote:Edited my last post regarding how simple ArPen really is. Basically if I have 50 arpen, does it simply mean I take out 50 armor from my target? And.....well, I love Zed. What do you recommend for him? I am really considering energy recovery runes...is it worth it on him?
For Zed questions I recommend the Zed thread; quick answer is (for me) ad red scaling hp yellow flat magicres blue and whatever I have available for quints. Don't bother with energy regen runes imo. The only champ that uses regen runes is Kennen sometimes, and that's because it happens to let you do a longer combo I think. I don't play Kennen, so I can't say authoritatively whether or not that's still true.
How armor penetration works: all physical damage you do is calculated as if your target had X less armor, where X is your armor pen.
Now, how armor works: Each point of armor gives you 1% more EHP (effective hit points) against physical damage. 100 armor corresponds to an extra 100% EHP against physical damage; that is to say, you have twice as much ehp as someone with 0 armor, because you take half damage. At 50 armor, you have 50% more EHP, so you take 2/3 the damage of someone with no armor. If you're really interested in the formula or if this makes no sense to you, I (or many others) can explain it in more detail, so just ask.
As mentioned above, 100 armor halves physical damage. If you were to do 1000 damage to a 100 armor target, they would only take 500 damage.
So, if you have 100 armor pen and do 1000 damage to a target with 100 armor, you'll be doing damage as if they had 100-100=0 armor, and they take the full 1000 damage. In this case, 100 armor pen would double your damage.
Now, 900 armor (which is nigh-unobtainable) would give you 900% more EHP against physical damage. This translates to taking 1/10 damage from all physical sources, so your 1000 damage becomes 100.
With 100 armor pen, they have effectively 800 armor, and take 1/9 damage from physical sources. This means you're now doing 111(.1111...) damage, an 11% increase. That's not nearly as good as double.
And that is why armor pen is good early and weaker late.
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On April 11 2013 02:24 Alaric wrote:
How do you lane as Jax against Renekton? You can't fight him early, and even later I'm having trouble initiating trades on him with his kit. If I try to E or EQ him h'll just Slice away, and if he tries to engage on me he'll stun me, and even if I preemptively E he'll have the time to stun -> slice away (or dice if he used slice to engage). I'm not sure what's the goal apart from letting him push to tower, getting whatever farm you can, and wait till 6 and your first major item (or something like Phage) to start trying trades.
What do you mean you can't fight him early o_o He can't trade with Cull from inside the creep wave at low levels unless he pops counterstrike to dodge creep damage, and Cull has like 1/3 the cooldown.
Edit: Derp, I misread that. You're playing AGAINST Renekton, not as Renekton.
Uh... buy armor and pray? I have no idea, it's definitely in favor of renekton, lane bullies are hard to lane against early, especially as Jax. Your 1-6 definitely needs to be focused on survival, not on fighting him.
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Yeah, I guess another solution would be to know I won't get ganked too early and then just make the lane push so he doesn't try and draw creep aggro when at a disadvantage, and recall right after a cannon minion wave so the lane doesn't push back too much. Then try to maintain it pushing, and basing often, to deny him the possibility of using his strong levels to bully. But I'm not sure how it's possible (Renekton probably doesn't care about the size of the wave unless extreme examples, and Jax, Wukong, etc. (generally weak laners against this kind of bullies) aren't too good at farming under the enemy tower without exposing themselves.
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It isn't until after you buy a Last Whisper (or another large source of percent penetration) that Armor Penetration runes ALWAYS outperform Attack damage. The thing is, runes are most noticable in the early levels - ultimately, who cares if your runes are giving you +3-5 more damage after you spend 10k gold on items? Having more damage when you had no items will probably have earned you a bit more gold by this point anyway.
That is not exactly correct. (I will just take old armorpen runes I didnt calculate it for the new ones, im sorry the new ones are a bit worse though)
(For the generic AD carry)
Armorpen is better: After lvl 4 with no AD item start, or with a Dorans Start (with the nerfed armorpen it might be lvl 3 with doran and lvl ~6 without)- Although it is correct that you should usually start AD (I honestly have no idea about toplaners tbh) But what ever you do, if you take decent runes they dont do a huge difference. Even proplayers use inefficient runes because they dont know how to/are to lazy to calculate it. It is a DPS difference below 10 which is close to neglectable
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I was trying out Malzahar today and went mid and...across from me is a Caitlyn. It did not go well. She has so much range and can out dps my spells with her auto it seems. Is there a way to play this or do I just have to switch lanes?
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That is a very uncommon lane to see at any level of play, but what I assume you should do is try not to trade pre-6 and see if you can outpush the caitlyn - then when you are 6 you should be able to 1-combo the caitlyn.
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Well that would be a good plan except that Cait was able to completely zone me from the creep wave. Malz doesn't seem like a very good champ anyway.
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So, I'm really trying to improve a bit, but I have no idea where to look for.
Basically I'm missing some kind of 'Probes & Pylons' for League of Legends. I got to diamond by playing vs AI and just doing build orders and making sure I didn't miss anything and even though I hardly played I got to diamond pretty easily.
Problem is, with LoL I hardly have anything to 'train' for. I'm a mediocre last-hitter, but at my 'level' (just placed Bronze 3) I still beat my direct enemies (30-60 cs and 80-120 cs at certain times in the game). But I rarely know when to attack, when to hold back a bit. When I play ADC I usually am scared to engage/harass and let my support/enemies make the play, when I'm mid I don't know when to roam, when to jungle(invade) or when to push.
Result is, I hardly make any kills, but I never mess up either. I can't really carry my team (don't make plays -> never gonna win).
Is there any kind of guide or Probes&Pylons to help me with this/my general gameplay, would be very much appreciated.
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
So I can't play LoL or watch VODs because I have no internet.
HOWEVER, is it possible for me to watch replays? I don't really know how the replays work. Do people watch them in their LoL client? Or is it a seperate program?
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Problem is, with LoL I hardly have anything to 'train' for. I'm a mediocre last-hitter, but at my 'level' (just placed Bronze 3) I still beat my direct enemies (30-60 cs and 80-120 cs at certain times in the game). But I rarely know when to attack, when to hold back a bit. When I play ADC I usually am scared to engage/harass and let my support/enemies make the play, when I'm mid I don't know when to roam, when to jungle(invade) or when to push.
The "problem" with LoL compared to Sc2 or any RTS is, that your mechanics are a pretty low part of what you do/have to do. More imporant is positioning and decision making (TvT mech in Sc2 ). A lot of low(er) level players play way to passive my advice is: try to play overagressive until its way too much and tune down from there. That is probably easier then trying to be more and more agressive.
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On April 11 2013 20:15 Ente wrote:Show nested quote +
Problem is, with LoL I hardly have anything to 'train' for. I'm a mediocre last-hitter, but at my 'level' (just placed Bronze 3) I still beat my direct enemies (30-60 cs and 80-120 cs at certain times in the game). But I rarely know when to attack, when to hold back a bit. When I play ADC I usually am scared to engage/harass and let my support/enemies make the play, when I'm mid I don't know when to roam, when to jungle(invade) or when to push.
The "problem" with LoL compared to Sc2 or any RTS is, that your mechanics are a pretty low part of what you do/have to do. More imporant is positioning and decision making (TvT mech in Sc2 ). A lot of low(er) level players play way to passive my advice is: try to play overagressive until its way too much and tune down from there. That is probably easier then trying to be more and more agressive.
I get that it's less mechanics and more decision making. But I haven't seen a 'Day9'-ish person or guides that can help me along the way for decision making. What to look for, what am I doing wrong, what can I improve upon?
If you get what I mean, like a series of guides with actual information instead of 'Lololol l2lasthit and ward and ur gold lol'.
EDIT: Like: when do I start roaming, where to maneuver to, how to take advantage of someone else roaming
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On April 11 2013 21:31 Giku wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 20:15 Ente wrote:
Problem is, with LoL I hardly have anything to 'train' for. I'm a mediocre last-hitter, but at my 'level' (just placed Bronze 3) I still beat my direct enemies (30-60 cs and 80-120 cs at certain times in the game). But I rarely know when to attack, when to hold back a bit. When I play ADC I usually am scared to engage/harass and let my support/enemies make the play, when I'm mid I don't know when to roam, when to jungle(invade) or when to push.
The "problem" with LoL compared to Sc2 or any RTS is, that your mechanics are a pretty low part of what you do/have to do. More imporant is positioning and decision making (TvT mech in Sc2 ). A lot of low(er) level players play way to passive my advice is: try to play overagressive until its way too much and tune down from there. That is probably easier then trying to be more and more agressive. I get that it's less mechanics and more decision making. But I haven't seen a 'Day9'-ish person or guides that can help me along the way for decision making. What to look for, what am I doing wrong, what can I improve upon? If you get what I mean, like a series of guides with actual information instead of 'Lololol l2lasthit and ward and ur gold lol'. EDIT: Like: when do I start roaming, where to maneuver to, how to take advantage of someone else roaming
as far as I know it rarely exist for LoL.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384187
could be a start. More focused on junglers tho (but not exclusively). But understanding junglers helps everyone^^
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On April 11 2013 21:31 Giku wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 20:15 Ente wrote:
Problem is, with LoL I hardly have anything to 'train' for. I'm a mediocre last-hitter, but at my 'level' (just placed Bronze 3) I still beat my direct enemies (30-60 cs and 80-120 cs at certain times in the game). But I rarely know when to attack, when to hold back a bit. When I play ADC I usually am scared to engage/harass and let my support/enemies make the play, when I'm mid I don't know when to roam, when to jungle(invade) or when to push.
The "problem" with LoL compared to Sc2 or any RTS is, that your mechanics are a pretty low part of what you do/have to do. More imporant is positioning and decision making (TvT mech in Sc2 ). A lot of low(er) level players play way to passive my advice is: try to play overagressive until its way too much and tune down from there. That is probably easier then trying to be more and more agressive. I get that it's less mechanics and more decision making. But I haven't seen a 'Day9'-ish person or guides that can help me along the way for decision making. What to look for, what am I doing wrong, what can I improve upon? If you get what I mean, like a series of guides with actual information instead of 'Lololol l2lasthit and ward and ur gold lol'. EDIT: Like: when do I start roaming, where to maneuver to, how to take advantage of someone else roaming
Ultimately, the goal of the game is to kill their towers.
So, you go roaming when a) it will accomplish something and b) you won't lose your tower. Usually this happens either after you can shove your wave super hard, or you've taken down the enemy tower.
(Sometimes a tower is an acceptable sacrifice if it means, say, you get two kills and dragon).
If someone else is roaming you have a few options. If you see them going down, you can follow them and make it an even fight; maybe even get your jungler to help. Just be careful not to commit to a fight you won't win. Your other option is to ping it and hope your laner backs off like a sensible person, while you push mid as hard as possible and try to take the tower.
Could you explain what you mean by "where to maneuver to"?
To answer your original post some, you should engage when you think you can come out ahead. That's difficult to gauge until you have a lot of experience, but the best way to learn is to be super aggressive all the time. As for advice on how to harass, keep a mental list of things they can do to you, and harass them when nothing on that list can touch you. (so, ashe against taric mf, you can harass mf with your autoattacks when her passive isn't up and taric isn't close enough to stun - this example is a simplification but it's the right general idea)
Invading jungle as mid is usually something you only want to do when you know that your jungle and your bot or top lane are paying attention and capable of coming to help. It's very risky otherwise, as the situation can easily turn into 1v3 or 1v4.
Pushing is hard, because pushing now can mean you're still pushed later. Ideally, you will not be pushed when the jungler is trying to gank, and all the way at the enemy tower when the jungler is elsewhere. However, this isn't exactly obtainable, so use your best discretion. If you don't have wards and you're not someone with piles of escapes, don't push.
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EPT
