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On November 17 2012 09:29 NeoIllusions wrote:
Currently, health options are either Catalyst for Giant's Belt. Not sold on Rylai's either.
Agree on RoA core. Does so much more for him than Ring stacking.
I just cant bring myself to buy Rylais personally, that still gives him the same problem as just rushing hourglass/visage no mana for caw cawing. RoA gives you a good chunk of health ap and mana so its pretty much gotta be core i think. athenes passive compliments him by keeping his mana high during teamfights.
anytime your ult isnt on is time you arent spending healing and being obnoxious so i cant see anything but Rod being core on him. what you get after it and chalice is totally situational though, but i cant find a situation where you'd need rylais. Considering you have an aoe snare and a slow already.
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I'm pretty sure the only build that works on Swain is 6 hex tech gunblades.
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I'm with general consensus here, Rylai's silly on swain. Already has an arguably overpowered slow in his Q, as well as the root. That and HP less good on him than resists considering his ult life regen, scales better gives you much better eHP during any fight with your ult on (read: all of them.).
Its even more silly considering how awesome Catalyst (and therefore RoA) are on swain, just suboptimal itemization, imo.
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On November 17 2012 07:58 Alaric wrote:
You also need the HP pool. Swain goes better with resistances, but being able to heal won't do any good if your HP pool is so low that you can get bursted 100-0 in one go before you have the chance to regenerate.
That's what Zhonya's is for.
If you're about to eat a lot of burst, activate Zhonyas.
If you're cc'd/ignited, activate QSS then Zhonyas.
It's incredibly effective and allows you to get really aggressive in all sorts of situations where you normally couldn't. You can just walk straight at their carry, drop your skills, and SHINNNNNNG.
Unless they have a virtually undodgeable skill that can nearly one shot you, or an initiate that you can't zhonya/cleanse, then HP is overrated on swain.
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HP might be overrated, but his base HP isn't fantastic (~1400 at lvl 14 which is usually when RoA is near maxed). It might be more cost effective to itemize AP and Mana seperately (since with a 500 mana cost for 10 secs of upkeep and only a 1k base mana pool, Swain really needs a larger mana pool), but RoA gives you both at the same time! It also builds out of Catalyst which provides laning power that a Tear wouldn't. If there was a Mana/MR item that didn't build out of Catalyst, then you could do Zhonyas + MR/Mana. Athene's is great, but mana regen doesn't mean much when you mana pool is too small.
Even if you didn't want HP at all, RoA breaks even on just the AP and Mana alone.
I could just be bad, but I went for a Deathcap/Zhonya/Athenes/SV build and in tower sieges I basically could never just manmode and eat poke and heal off creeps because I had to save mana to make sure ult wouldn't run out during a teamfight.
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On November 17 2012 11:58 Tooplark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 07:58 Alaric wrote:
You also need the HP pool. Swain goes better with resistances, but being able to heal won't do any good if your HP pool is so low that you can get bursted 100-0 in one go before you have the chance to regenerate. That's what Zhonya's is for. If you're about to eat a lot of burst, activate Zhonyas. If you're cc'd/ignited, activate QSS then Zhonyas. It's incredibly effective and allows you to get really aggressive in all sorts of situations where you normally couldn't. You can just walk straight at their carry, drop your skills, and SHINNNNNNG. Unless they have a virtually undodgeable skill that can nearly one shot you, or an initiate that you can't zhonya/cleanse, then HP is overrated on swain.
Well when you compare the costs... and it's kinda low on AP, too, so you can't really rush your combo, which means you'll be vulnerable an awfully long time.
I tend to go for deathcap if I'm fed/pretty ahead after RoA, or Zhonya in all other cases. QSS is good but should never be bought before 3rd (or 4th) item I think, it's like buying GA off of IE for current AD carries: unless you're hugely ahead, it doesn't do that much till you have other items to give your survability more worth.
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Yes, except buying GA off of IE is 6.5k gold, while QSS off of Zhonya's is 4.5k gold. Carries also need to hit that crazy multiplicative scaling from PD, while you don't have the same incredible multiplicative power. QSS also removes your biggest teamfight fear (Ignite).
Without factoring Torment damage amp in, you do 70 damage with rank 1 ult and zhonya's. You heal for 18 off each creep you hit and 52 off each champ, per second. That's 88 health/sec * 3 seconds of invulnerability = 263 health back while invincible. If you can time hourglass to dodge even part of their combo, you're in a good position.
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That still doesn't do anything to remedy the mana pool issue that Swain has. Even with RoA it isn't uncommon for you to run out of mana in the midst of some teamfights. Rushing Zhonya makes you more susceptible in lane because until you finish the whole item there is nothing that will save you if you get ganked in a bad position or you just plain get focused in a teamfight. The components that build up to the item, NLR and chain vest, are not good laning items. What are you going to do if you have to base and you have sub 1600 gold? Get doran's? You might as well have just build a catalyst that will do much more for Swain. Swain isn't like Morgana who has a spell shield that is almost like a get-out-of-ganks-for-free card, and he is acutely mana hungry, which isn't like Morg either.
Zhonya's is a great item on Swain but if you don't do something to take care of his mana pool problem then nothing really matters.
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On November 18 2012 02:05 koreasilver wrote:
That still doesn't do anything to remedy the mana pool issue that Swain has. Even with RoA it isn't uncommon for you to run out of mana in the midst of some teamfights. Rushing Zhonya makes you more susceptible in lane because until you finish the whole item there is nothing that will save you if you get ganked in a bad position or you just plain get focused in a teamfight. The components that build up to the item, NLR and chain vest, are not good laning items. What are you going to do if you have to base and you have sub 1600 gold? Get doran's? You might as well have just build a catalyst that will do much more for Swain. Swain isn't like Morgana who has a spell shield that is almost like a get-out-of-ganks-for-free card, and he is acutely mana hungry, which isn't like Morg either.
Zhonya's is a great item on Swain but if you don't do something to take care of his mana pool problem then nothing really matters.
I just cant justify not building RoA on him, you need health to make sure you dont die, and you also need mana to make sure you can CAW CAW CAW as long as possible
RoA pretty much only item i could see going with first
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Just want to add something,imo buy ring('s)+ chalice if you fall behind early.It's really painful to try to come back while shooting for that RoA and it won't work.Use you're gold on rings and chalice if you feel like you need to do something asap,don't rush RoA at all costs.
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I don't know if anyone else feels the same way, but I feel like Athene's as a first or (more preferably) second item. You just never seem to run out of mana which is really strong on Swain.
And I don't know if that stats on RoA got changed, but it got it's price lowered by around 200 on the S3 patch. Indirect buff to Swain!
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On November 18 2012 09:22 Dusty wrote:
I don't know if anyone else feels the same way, but I feel like Athene's as a first or (more preferably) second item. You just never seem to run out of mana which is really strong on Swain.
And I don't know if that stats on RoA got changed, but it got it's price lowered by around 200 on the S3 patch. Indirect buff to Swain!
Grabbing chalice after your RoA is really strong imo. You can always grab athenes after RoA also if you wanted to, i usually get it as a 3rd item, depending on if i need abyssal or zhonyas or dc.
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if you are really falling behind, you can always go haunting guise/abyssal/sorc boots. add a chalice for mana and ur pretty much set for the midgame
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On November 18 2012 08:17 TheKefka wrote:
Just want to add something,imo buy ring('s)+ chalice if you fall behind early.It's really painful to try to come back while shooting for that RoA and it won't work.Use you're gold on rings and chalice if you feel like you need to do something asap,don't rush RoA at all costs.
Yeah, against horrendous matchups like Leblanc you can't just go catalyst with your initial gold. You have to bunker down with chalice+negatron/SV/etc. Even in even matchups I often end up building a chalice before I finish RoA because of how strong of a laning tool it is for Swain post-lvl6.
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I dunno. The thing with chalice is that it helps sustaining your mana over long periods of time while you ult for only a few seconds at a time. Over the course of a teamfight, if you don't get to turn your ult off then on again (often hard to do unless you have an opportunity to disengage and stand on the sides waiting for its cooldown) the stacking upkeep will dwarf chalice's regen by far, so I'd rather build it as a skirmish/antipoke item, than a milestone for power level and objectives.
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Just picked up swain, who do you guys think are a bad matchup for him? So far I've learnt ryze and Irelia are pretty hard.
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United States37500 Posts
On November 18 2012 12:34 schmutttt wrote:
Just picked up swain, who do you guys think are a bad matchup for him? So far I've learnt ryze and Irelia are pretty hard.
Cass for mid.
Top Lane (where I play Swain), he should be a counter for most of the time. He fares well against bruisers.
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On November 18 2012 12:36 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 12:34 schmutttt wrote:
Just picked up swain, who do you guys think are a bad matchup for him? So far I've learnt ryze and Irelia are pretty hard. Cass for mid. Top Lane (where I play Swain), he should be a counter for most of the time. He fares well against bruisers.
If you see Cass and youre going mid you better pray to whatever you believe in that shes awful as fuck. Because if she has a brain she'll take her long snake dick and stick up your feathered ass
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that got graphic in a hurry
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I think LeBlanc also counters Swain pretty hard.
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EPT
