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BATTLECRUISER OPERATIONAL
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QmX1n.png)
So with permission from our friendly forum moderator, I have got permission for my 10,000th post to redo the Swain guide! A short introduction, i'm Arb i post here alot and i've been here a good while, i used to think Swain was a worthless hero however, upon playing him I really think he's one of the most ridiculous mids in the game. So let's get started!
Section 1: Why play Swain?
Why play Swain? Because he's The Master Tactician with Infinite Sustain of course.
Pros :
•Stupidly obnoxious sustain when you hit 6
•Spells do a lot more damage then most people expect from him
•Popular gap closing assassin mids such as Katarina/Diana/Akali/Ahri are pretty much shut down when they get near him due to his retarded damage when you unload.
•Really hard to shut down when you get rolling
•He's a hell of a lot of fun!
Cons :
• If you get shut down its hard to come back
• Hard to sustain pre-6
• Similar to Ryze has very little pushing power before he gets some AP or level 6.
• Pretty high skill cap imo.
Section 2: Skills
![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/skills/swain/p.png) Passive Carrion Renewal: Whenever Swain kills an enemy unit, he restores 9 + (1 × level) mana.
Basically, you get free flat mana whenever you last hit. Early game provided you can last hit really well, you'll be at full mana 99% of the time. Realllllly strong passive.
![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/skills/swain/q.png) Q Decrepify : Swain sends his raven to cripple an enemy, creating a tether between the enemy and the raven, which stays in the position Swain was upon cast. Over the next 3 seconds, the target takes damage each second and is slowed. If enemies walk out of the tether, the effect ends immediately.
Swains Q is an instant cast tethered DoT(Damage over Time) that also slows your enemy! Early on use this to slow jungles if they come into gank you, if you wanna get aggressive use E in combination with the slow from Q will help you land a very easy W!
Note* : The tether doesn't move from where you initially cast it
![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/skills/swain/w.png) W Nevermove : Swain marks a target area. After a short delay, mighty talons grab hold of enemy units, dealing damage and rooting them for 2 seconds.
Swains W is a skill shot AoE(Area of Effect) Root for 2 seconds, it also does pretty good damage later when combined with some AP! It has a couple of uses early on, comboing this with Q/E for damage, Rooting their mid when your jungle ganks, rooting their jungle when they gank, and just killing big waves with it plus your ult!
![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/skills/swain/e.png) E Torment : Swain afflicts his target with debilitating pain dealing damage to them over 4 seconds, and causing any further damage dealt by Swain during this period to be increased by a percentage. This includes summoner spells and items used by Swain.
Ahhh, torment your bread and butter harass + damage skill, using this not only places a really strong DoT on your enemy, it also causes all of your spells/items/autoattacks to do bonus damage, and scales off itself! Anytime you go in to harass with autoattacks or just do harass in general make sure to lead off with this.
![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/skills/swain/r.png) R Ravenous Flock : Swain transforms into the form of a raven, during this time up to 3 lesser ravens strike out at nearby enemies each second, one raven per enemy and prioritizing champions. Swain is healed for 75% the damage dealt to champions and by 25% of the damage dealt to minions and monsters. The cost to sustain Ravenous Flock increases every second.
Your ultimate gives you incredible sustain once leveled(hence Swain The Master Tactician with Infinite Sustain!). When someone dives on you mid? Turn into a bird and CAW CAW CAW heal to full while you blow your load all over them and make them regret ever fucking with you. Can be used for semi decent farming once you get blue + Rod. Remember the cost starts out small but increases every second, eventually you wont be able to sustain its cost and it'll cut itself off, ALWAYS know how much mana you have and swap between bird/human form as needed!
Section 3 : Summoner Spells & Runes & Masteries
Section 3A Summoner Spells :
![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/summoners/flash.png) Flash : Teleports you to your cursor, pretty much an always use. Can get you away from ganks, position in teamfights or anything really.
![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/summoners/ignite.png) Ignite : One of the two options for your second spell, its another DoT spell and does extra damage with paired with your E! Most of the time i'll take this but sometimes it requires a different spell.
![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/summoners/exhaust.png) Exhaust : Can also use this if you really wanted to, will reduce something like Karthus' damage and Ahri/Kat if they jump on you(you'll shit on them regardless but assurance never hurts)
Section 3B Runes :
I truthfully use a couple different rune setups for Swain as sometimes a matchup requires a different setup!
Rune Setup 1
![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/runes/mark4.png) 9x Greater Mark of Insight
![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/runes/seal1.png) 9x Greater Seal of Resilience
![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/runes/glyph4.png) 9x Greater Glyph of Force
![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/runes/quint3.png) 3x Greater Quintessence of Potency
This one will probably be your default, Magic Pen is pretty self explanatory, armor if youre facing someone who auto attacks heavily/go toplane, and AP/L and Flat AP for more ap obviously.
Rune Setup 2
9x Greater Mark of Insight
9x Greater Seal of Resilience
9x Greater Glyph of Force
3x Greater Quintessence of Swiftness
Basically the same as the one above with Movement Speed instead of Ability Power, use this if you want to forsake as much early damage for more utility! Plus running fast is always great!
Other Runes to Consider :
The only other real options IMO are Health/Level Yellows because being more healthy is always nice if you decide to go for some glass cannon build(which you shouldnt) or dont expect to be taking alot of auto damage.
Flat Magic Resist/Magic Resist Per Level Glyphs, You are going mid after all, and having extra MR to help against the opposing mid laner is NEVER a bad idea.
Section 3C Masteries :
The most common setups here are really 21/9/0 taking all the appropriate AP masteries and the health per level/ flat HP + magic resist in the defensive tree
You can also run 9/21/0 IF you're scared of dying or something, which you wont be because Swains unkillable.
9/0/21 Is also viable but Im not 100% sure why you'd do it!
Section 4 Item's and you :
You can build almost anything on Swain and expect to do well, because well he's the best champion in the game obviously.
Section 4A Core build :
99% your core build will be this :
![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/items/mercurys-treads.png) or ![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/items/sorcerers-shoes.png) or ![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/items/ninja-tabi.png) ![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/items/rod-of-ages.png)
Your choice of boots will really depend on whats happening in the game, most of the time you'll go mercs, but if youre shitting on kids go Sorcs, if their top/bot is fed just go tabis. RoA(Rod of Ages) is something I always get because it gives you health/mana aswell as AP items besides these will depend on the situation youre in during the game!
![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/items/sight-ward5.png) Wards :
ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS buy atleast 1 when you back, don't ever neglect buying wards. When you can see a gank coming, or where their mid is going it can save you and your teammates lives! Good places to ward include, your/their Wraiths, dragon, the bushes next to the midlane bushes, and your enemy buffs whenever possible!
Section 4B Situational items :
![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/items/abyssal-scepter.png) Abyssal Scepter :
Say you really need MR, or you feel like going sorcs/abyssal for a magic pen build or something, this is a really good item. Playing vs something like Ahri/Diana i like to build this since when they dive on you and eat your entire combo they'll be doing it with 20 less MR, plus its a pretty good overall aura for your team.
![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/items/chalice-of-harmony.png) and ![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/items/athenes-unholy-grail.png) Chalice of Harmony/Athenes Unholy Grail :
If you dont go abyssal, i'd recommend grabbing Chalice atleast after rod, coupled with blue buff + its insane passive(1% mp5 per 1% mana missing yes plz) it'll ensure you're CAW CAW CAWing for aslong as possible, and when upgraded you return 12% of your max mana on a kill/assist which also fuels your Bird power! You'll get some MR with these but really the main thing is to get the passive, usually i'll hold off on upgrading into Athenes till after your next big item, but sometimes you may need to get it sooner!
![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/items/rabadons-deathcap.png) Rabadons Deathcap :
If you're really pooping on kids you can grab this quickly, it'll provide you with the most raw damage out of almost any item you can rush. You should get this most games at some point, but sometimes getting it after RoA because you got a bunch of kills/are farming exceptionally well(which you should be of course). is a pretty decent idea!
![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/items/zhonyas-hourglass.png) Zhonyas Hourglass :
If you dont need to rush Athenes/ youre getting focused hella hard grab this after Chalice/RoA when they all jump on you, stasis and troll face as you heal to full(yes your ult goes on while Zhonyas is up, awesome!) I'd recommend getting this late game though, the armor is always pretty good vs Ad's(which will dominate late game) and you get alot of AP + the awesome active.
![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/items/frozen-heart.png) Frozen Heart :
99 armor + 500 mana + 20% AoE attack speed slow + 20% CDR, this is a pretty decent item if you need the armor/mana badly late game. The slow aura is always nice for slowing their DPS down, get this sometimes. You can grab a Glacial early and then hold on it for a while the CDR helps you spam spells more also!
![[image loading]](http://www.solomid.net/guide/items/spirit-visage.png) Spirit Visage :
Lategame when you buy this item, throw on your trollface with zhonyas since your ult will be healing retarded amounts of health back. Get this sometimes, dont always rush it but if you find you could use it it's always worth considering!
Section 5 : Laning/Teamfighting :
I'll break this up into 3 sections Early/Mid/Late games!
Section 5A Early Game :
Early game you want to focus on 2 things, last hitting and not dying. Anytime you can harass/they get near creeps throw out and E and and auto attack or two and back off. Follow them if they roam and make sure to farm, thats the main thing is to farm, and not die. If you think you can get a kill with ignite + ult and flash go for it, but like I said mostly focus on farming and not dying.
Section 5B Mid Game :
Continue farming, and make sure you buy wards. Group up with your team when they go to do dragon, and don't leave your jungler out to dry unless he does something dumb. Follow the enemy mid when they roam top/bot and make sure you farm still. If you get into a big fight make sure you peel for your AD and unload your spells constantly, manage your mana with bird form for maximum CAW CAW CAWing.
Section 5C Late Game :
Late game you wanna be with your team forcing objectives. Peel for your AD Carry use your slow + snare smart, and throw out E's and CAW CAW CAW everywhere. If you can catch someone with a W then awesome, your team should be able to kill them, the more people you can catch in a W in a teamfight the better. Use your spells smartly and peel for your AD while shitting on their team.
Section 6 Closing thoughts :
Well that's it for my Swain Guide/10,000th post! I hope you learned something and I sincerely hope you enjoy the champion as much as I did. Any questions or comments or improvements you can always leave below or just feel free to shoot me a PM!
Happy CAW CAW CAWING!
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I used this guide and went 20-0 then I bought wards and went 30-0 #dota2sucks
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Not sure why you didn't mention Rylai. I feel that it's extremely strong on him because he can pretty much perm-slow the entire enemy team and provides the most brainless kiting ever (just move backward and leave R on). His E will also provide an obnoxious 5.5 seconds slow.
When S3 comes, Swain will definitely be stronger with Ignite nerf/Spirit Visage buff/Tear buff.
One other important piece of information (imo) regarding Swain:
His Q creates a Tether AT WHERE SWAIN INITIALLY CASTED Q and does not move with him (unlike, say, Noc's E). Because the tether range is about 200 distance longer than the Q cast range, this means that when you cast a Q on a target at max range while the said target is running away from you, you typically will only get one tick off (33% of the damage). The fact that his Q casts instantly without any casting animation means that you can also use it to last hit a minion, although you will do only 30ish damage at rank 1.
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On November 16 2012 18:33 Sufficiency wrote:
Not sure why you didn't mention Rylai. I feel that it's extremely strong on him because he can pretty much perm-slow the entire enemy team and provides the most brainless kiting ever (just move backward and leave R on). His E will also provide an obnoxious 5.5 seconds slow.
When S3 comes, Swain will definitely be stronger with Ignite nerf/Spirit Visage buff/Tear buff.
One other important piece of information (imo) regarding Swain:
His Q creates a Tether AT WHERE SWAIN INITIALLY CASTED Q and does not move with him (unlike, say, Noc's E). Because the tether range is about 200 distance longer than the Q cast range, this means that when you cast a Q on a target at max range while the said target is running away from you, you typically will only get one tick off (33% of the damage). The fact that his Q casts instantly without any casting animation means that you can also use it to last hit a minion, although you will do only 30ish damage at rank 1.
I'll def add a section for Rylais in the coming days, i've never been a huge fan of it personally
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Rylai gives HP, Swain prefers resistances, and the slows is "wasted" on Q and W because of the stacking mechanic and the root. The slow's also kinda weak on his ult and will only hit the 3 closest enemies, which may help but I don't feel like it warrants the amount of gold you'll pour into it.
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I think this was already talked about in the old Swain thread or in some GD months ago when Swain was a topic for a page or two, but Rylai's sucks on Swain for a few reasons.
1. If you're building any health item, it's going to be catalyst -> ROA. ROA > Rylai's by a very large margin because it not only provides the catalyst proc (building up to it from catalyst and when finished as ROA), but it also provides a large mana pool that helps out Swain maybe more than any other champion in the game.
2. Since you would rather build ROA than Rylai's, after you finish ROA you will almost always prefer to build resistances over more health because it gives you more effective health. And in the cases where you're completely dominating, building a NLR is so much more impactful than Rylai's because you're going to be killing and healing more anyway. The slow from Rylai's isn't even really necessary because your Q's slow is really strong, and it's very easy to land your W if the target is tethered by your Q. After ROA, you want to be building resists and ap so that you have more effective hp, kill people faster, and heal more. Spending gold on Rylai's after ROA just isn't a very effective way of spending gold on Swain.
edit: I just want to suggest that scaling mana regen seals can be very, very strong on Swain. They are my personal favourite seals for Swain.
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On November 17 2012 03:25 koreasilver wrote:
I think this was already talked about in the old Swain thread or in some GD months ago when Swain was a topic for a page or two, but Rylai's sucks on Swain for a few reasons.
1. If you're building any health item, it's going to be catalyst -> ROA. ROA > Rylai's by a very large margin because it not only provides the catalyst proc (building up to it from catalyst and when finished as ROA), but it also provides a large mana pool that helps out Swain maybe more than any other champion in the game.
2. Since you would rather build ROA than Rylai's, after you finish ROA you will almost always prefer to build resistances over more health because it gives you more effective health. And in the cases where you're completely dominating, building a NLR is so much more impactful than Rylai's because you're going to be killing and healing more anyway. The slow from Rylai's isn't even really necessary because your Q's slow is really strong, and it's very easy to land your W if the target is tethered by your Q. After ROA, you want to be building resists and ap so that you have more effective hp, kill people faster, and heal more. Spending gold on Rylai's after ROA just isn't a very effective way of spending gold on Swain.
edit: I just want to suggest that scaling mana regen seals can be very, very strong on Swain. They are my personal favourite seals for Swain.
I am not suggesting building Rylai's second. It's more of a teamfighting item since his Q can already easily slow a single target approaching him. I don't think it's awfully bad, but if there is only one "diver" from the enemy team it's obviously not worth it.
BTW, recently I have trying to get better at this champion. The LoL wiki does not have the upkeep cost of his R after x seconds, so I made a chart so I can get a better grasp of his mana cost. It looks pretty rough and could be wrong (the numbers are calculated based on the description of the ability from the wiki and NOT from the actual in-game behaviour), but here it goes:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/do8xp.png)
Maybe it'll be useful for other readers.
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In teamfights you should be aiming to kill, not try to augment him in a very awkward and very ineffective way. Swain's role in a teamfight isn't primarily to provide utility. His design is still primarily focused around singling out one target and just outright killing them. He can have really strong sustain but if you build him like a "tank" that provides utility, then you're playing him wrong. He is foremost a damage dealer. The sustain that his ult provides should be taken as something that aids him in achieving the primary goal.
edit: lets not mince words. Rylai's is awful on Swain.
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Yo just dropping by to say that Zhonya's -> QSS or SV is still 100% the best way to spend your gold as Swain.
once you get good at timing your Zs, you'll never go back to RoA
Still undecided as to whether Athene's is enough of a mana solution. New Tear gonna be autobuy imo.
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Not sure about the tear. It only procs once every 3s, right? So since you tend to use your first 3 spells in a single combo, you'll only charge it once. Then once or maybe twice with your ult. You'll charge it a bit faster if you use your ult to push a bit without fighting, but with his cooldowns and the way his spells work, as much as he'll charge tear faster then than now, he'll still charge it pretty slowly.
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On November 17 2012 05:16 Alaric wrote:
Not sure about the tear. It only procs once every 3s, right? So since you tend to use your first 3 spells in a single combo, you'll only charge it once. Then once or maybe twice with your ult. You'll charge it a bit faster if you use your ult to push a bit without fighting, but with his cooldowns and the way his spells work, as much as he'll charge tear faster then than now, he'll still charge it pretty slowly.
I think with the Tear change, you can spam your ult a little bit while you are moving to lane or idling. Currently he can only build Tear by spamming W, since the rest of his abilities are either Toggled or require a target.
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On November 17 2012 04:48 Tooplark wrote:
Yo just dropping by to say that Zhonya's -> QSS or SV is still 100% the best way to spend your gold as Swain.
once you get good at timing your Zs, you'll never go back to RoA
Still undecided as to whether Athene's is enough of a mana solution. New Tear gonna be autobuy imo.
I like getting RoA mostly for the mana truthfully, the longer you can CAW CAW early and later the better. Cata proc also never hurts imo.
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Well, first Tear is going to be ~700 gold now iirc, which isn't much for something that gives you crazy mana pool. Previously the biggest challenge with going Hourglass/QSS Swain was your tiny mana pool - you either had to buy Tear early, which wasn't feasible against most lanes unless you were really rollin', or you had to buy catalyst (in which case, why not start catalyst (in which case why not build RoA)). New Tear charges faster, so you can get it later, and becomes godlike after enough time.
^ yeah the mana pool was previously the hardest thing to itemize. I hope the new tear works well.
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On November 17 2012 07:18 Tooplark wrote:
Well, first Tear is going to be ~700 gold now iirc, which isn't much for something that gives you crazy mana pool. Previously the biggest challenge with going Hourglass/QSS Swain was your tiny mana pool - you either had to buy Tear early, which wasn't feasible against most lanes unless you were really rollin', or you had to buy catalyst (in which case, why not start catalyst (in which case why not build RoA)). New Tear charges faster, so you can get it later, and becomes godlike after enough time.
^ yeah the mana pool was previously the hardest thing to itemize. I hope the new tear works well.
If the new tear works well then it'll def be a must buy. I just cant justify not getting RoA right now because you really do need the mana when his ult cost ramps up and you cant sustain it with just blue anymore
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You also need the HP pool. Swain goes better with resistances, but being able to heal won't do any good if your HP pool is so low that you can get bursted 100-0 in one go before you have the chance to regenerate.
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On November 17 2012 07:58 Alaric wrote:
You also need the HP pool. Swain goes better with resistances, but being able to heal won't do any good if your HP pool is so low that you can get bursted 100-0 in one go before you have the chance to regenerate.
With tear being cheaper, and if youre farming well/not getting shit on i could see Tear/RoA being decent. since you can sit on tear for a while to charge it up before turning it into the new item it builds into
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United States37500 Posts
I would never get the current Tear on Swain. o_o
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On November 17 2012 09:11 NeoIllusions wrote:
I would never get the current Tear on Swain. o_o
Truthfully even with it getting made cheaper and junk I have trouble thinking the new one will be that good, you'll be unloading your entire combo as fast as you can so it wont get charges that quick. Rushing it and not having health just isnt a good idea imo, even though you get all that mana.
I think experimenting with Rod/Tear might have some merit but im not really sure. You need some kind of health to make sure you dont die instantly, but you need mana to make sure your ult is on as long as possible also.
Does tear proc on/off with his ult like it does anivias? if so it could be.. okay i guess but i still dont really know.
RoA will still probably be core on him i think
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United States37500 Posts
Currently, health options are either Catalyst for Giant's Belt. Not sold on Rylai's either.
Agree on RoA core. Does so much more for him than Ring stacking.
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No, Anivia is the only exception regarding toggles. I guess Riot made it intentionally since "she needs sooooooooo much mana" (and 0 AP... God I hate her. But this ain't no place to rant). So basically you'd need to cast your ult, let it run 3 seconds, then turn it off. So one proc for 25 initial mana, then another one for (30+35+40) 105 mana, assuming you're only at level 1 ult, otherwise it's 6 or 12 mana more. Considering his mana costs, if you want to charge your tear and you've got targets and no threats it's cheaper to just turn your ult on and off, immediatly, then cast one of your other spells after 3 seconds on a target, cast another one 3 seconds later, then turn on your ult again as it'll have cooled down.
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Which is exactly the same as the current tear.
Yes, you can charge it better without targets but it'll be expensive as hell (105 mana for a second tick, 150, or even 210 for a third one). I don't think even the new tear will be worth it because the difference in charging speed won't be big enough.
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On November 17 2012 09:29 NeoIllusions wrote:
Currently, health options are either Catalyst for Giant's Belt. Not sold on Rylai's either.
Agree on RoA core. Does so much more for him than Ring stacking.
I just cant bring myself to buy Rylais personally, that still gives him the same problem as just rushing hourglass/visage no mana for caw cawing. RoA gives you a good chunk of health ap and mana so its pretty much gotta be core i think. athenes passive compliments him by keeping his mana high during teamfights.
anytime your ult isnt on is time you arent spending healing and being obnoxious so i cant see anything but Rod being core on him. what you get after it and chalice is totally situational though, but i cant find a situation where you'd need rylais. Considering you have an aoe snare and a slow already.
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I'm pretty sure the only build that works on Swain is 6 hex tech gunblades.
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I'm with general consensus here, Rylai's silly on swain. Already has an arguably overpowered slow in his Q, as well as the root. That and HP less good on him than resists considering his ult life regen, scales better gives you much better eHP during any fight with your ult on (read: all of them.).
Its even more silly considering how awesome Catalyst (and therefore RoA) are on swain, just suboptimal itemization, imo.
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On November 17 2012 07:58 Alaric wrote:
You also need the HP pool. Swain goes better with resistances, but being able to heal won't do any good if your HP pool is so low that you can get bursted 100-0 in one go before you have the chance to regenerate.
That's what Zhonya's is for.
If you're about to eat a lot of burst, activate Zhonyas.
If you're cc'd/ignited, activate QSS then Zhonyas.
It's incredibly effective and allows you to get really aggressive in all sorts of situations where you normally couldn't. You can just walk straight at their carry, drop your skills, and SHINNNNNNG.
Unless they have a virtually undodgeable skill that can nearly one shot you, or an initiate that you can't zhonya/cleanse, then HP is overrated on swain.
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HP might be overrated, but his base HP isn't fantastic (~1400 at lvl 14 which is usually when RoA is near maxed). It might be more cost effective to itemize AP and Mana seperately (since with a 500 mana cost for 10 secs of upkeep and only a 1k base mana pool, Swain really needs a larger mana pool), but RoA gives you both at the same time! It also builds out of Catalyst which provides laning power that a Tear wouldn't. If there was a Mana/MR item that didn't build out of Catalyst, then you could do Zhonyas + MR/Mana. Athene's is great, but mana regen doesn't mean much when you mana pool is too small.
Even if you didn't want HP at all, RoA breaks even on just the AP and Mana alone.
I could just be bad, but I went for a Deathcap/Zhonya/Athenes/SV build and in tower sieges I basically could never just manmode and eat poke and heal off creeps because I had to save mana to make sure ult wouldn't run out during a teamfight.
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On November 17 2012 11:58 Tooplark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 07:58 Alaric wrote:
You also need the HP pool. Swain goes better with resistances, but being able to heal won't do any good if your HP pool is so low that you can get bursted 100-0 in one go before you have the chance to regenerate. That's what Zhonya's is for. If you're about to eat a lot of burst, activate Zhonyas. If you're cc'd/ignited, activate QSS then Zhonyas. It's incredibly effective and allows you to get really aggressive in all sorts of situations where you normally couldn't. You can just walk straight at their carry, drop your skills, and SHINNNNNNG. Unless they have a virtually undodgeable skill that can nearly one shot you, or an initiate that you can't zhonya/cleanse, then HP is overrated on swain.
Well when you compare the costs... and it's kinda low on AP, too, so you can't really rush your combo, which means you'll be vulnerable an awfully long time.
I tend to go for deathcap if I'm fed/pretty ahead after RoA, or Zhonya in all other cases. QSS is good but should never be bought before 3rd (or 4th) item I think, it's like buying GA off of IE for current AD carries: unless you're hugely ahead, it doesn't do that much till you have other items to give your survability more worth.
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Yes, except buying GA off of IE is 6.5k gold, while QSS off of Zhonya's is 4.5k gold. Carries also need to hit that crazy multiplicative scaling from PD, while you don't have the same incredible multiplicative power. QSS also removes your biggest teamfight fear (Ignite).
Without factoring Torment damage amp in, you do 70 damage with rank 1 ult and zhonya's. You heal for 18 off each creep you hit and 52 off each champ, per second. That's 88 health/sec * 3 seconds of invulnerability = 263 health back while invincible. If you can time hourglass to dodge even part of their combo, you're in a good position.
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That still doesn't do anything to remedy the mana pool issue that Swain has. Even with RoA it isn't uncommon for you to run out of mana in the midst of some teamfights. Rushing Zhonya makes you more susceptible in lane because until you finish the whole item there is nothing that will save you if you get ganked in a bad position or you just plain get focused in a teamfight. The components that build up to the item, NLR and chain vest, are not good laning items. What are you going to do if you have to base and you have sub 1600 gold? Get doran's? You might as well have just build a catalyst that will do much more for Swain. Swain isn't like Morgana who has a spell shield that is almost like a get-out-of-ganks-for-free card, and he is acutely mana hungry, which isn't like Morg either.
Zhonya's is a great item on Swain but if you don't do something to take care of his mana pool problem then nothing really matters.
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On November 18 2012 02:05 koreasilver wrote:
That still doesn't do anything to remedy the mana pool issue that Swain has. Even with RoA it isn't uncommon for you to run out of mana in the midst of some teamfights. Rushing Zhonya makes you more susceptible in lane because until you finish the whole item there is nothing that will save you if you get ganked in a bad position or you just plain get focused in a teamfight. The components that build up to the item, NLR and chain vest, are not good laning items. What are you going to do if you have to base and you have sub 1600 gold? Get doran's? You might as well have just build a catalyst that will do much more for Swain. Swain isn't like Morgana who has a spell shield that is almost like a get-out-of-ganks-for-free card, and he is acutely mana hungry, which isn't like Morg either.
Zhonya's is a great item on Swain but if you don't do something to take care of his mana pool problem then nothing really matters.
I just cant justify not building RoA on him, you need health to make sure you dont die, and you also need mana to make sure you can CAW CAW CAW as long as possible
RoA pretty much only item i could see going with first
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Just want to add something,imo buy ring('s)+ chalice if you fall behind early.It's really painful to try to come back while shooting for that RoA and it won't work.Use you're gold on rings and chalice if you feel like you need to do something asap,don't rush RoA at all costs.
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I don't know if anyone else feels the same way, but I feel like Athene's as a first or (more preferably) second item. You just never seem to run out of mana which is really strong on Swain.
And I don't know if that stats on RoA got changed, but it got it's price lowered by around 200 on the S3 patch. Indirect buff to Swain!
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On November 18 2012 09:22 Dusty wrote:
I don't know if anyone else feels the same way, but I feel like Athene's as a first or (more preferably) second item. You just never seem to run out of mana which is really strong on Swain.
And I don't know if that stats on RoA got changed, but it got it's price lowered by around 200 on the S3 patch. Indirect buff to Swain!
Grabbing chalice after your RoA is really strong imo. You can always grab athenes after RoA also if you wanted to, i usually get it as a 3rd item, depending on if i need abyssal or zhonyas or dc.
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if you are really falling behind, you can always go haunting guise/abyssal/sorc boots. add a chalice for mana and ur pretty much set for the midgame
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On November 18 2012 08:17 TheKefka wrote:
Just want to add something,imo buy ring('s)+ chalice if you fall behind early.It's really painful to try to come back while shooting for that RoA and it won't work.Use you're gold on rings and chalice if you feel like you need to do something asap,don't rush RoA at all costs.
Yeah, against horrendous matchups like Leblanc you can't just go catalyst with your initial gold. You have to bunker down with chalice+negatron/SV/etc. Even in even matchups I often end up building a chalice before I finish RoA because of how strong of a laning tool it is for Swain post-lvl6.
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I dunno. The thing with chalice is that it helps sustaining your mana over long periods of time while you ult for only a few seconds at a time. Over the course of a teamfight, if you don't get to turn your ult off then on again (often hard to do unless you have an opportunity to disengage and stand on the sides waiting for its cooldown) the stacking upkeep will dwarf chalice's regen by far, so I'd rather build it as a skirmish/antipoke item, than a milestone for power level and objectives.
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Just picked up swain, who do you guys think are a bad matchup for him? So far I've learnt ryze and Irelia are pretty hard.
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United States37500 Posts
On November 18 2012 12:34 schmutttt wrote:
Just picked up swain, who do you guys think are a bad matchup for him? So far I've learnt ryze and Irelia are pretty hard.
Cass for mid.
Top Lane (where I play Swain), he should be a counter for most of the time. He fares well against bruisers.
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On November 18 2012 12:36 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 12:34 schmutttt wrote:
Just picked up swain, who do you guys think are a bad matchup for him? So far I've learnt ryze and Irelia are pretty hard. Cass for mid. Top Lane (where I play Swain), he should be a counter for most of the time. He fares well against bruisers.
If you see Cass and youre going mid you better pray to whatever you believe in that shes awful as fuck. Because if she has a brain she'll take her long snake dick and stick up your feathered ass
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that got graphic in a hurry
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I think LeBlanc also counters Swain pretty hard.
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Swain has trouble against gap closers and burst traders because they can bypass his Q slow with it. He wrecks anyone relying on MS to reach him (except Olaf). He can fight back gap closers with W once they're on top of him, but it'll still make him eat most of the burst, potential phage procs, and have to expend a lot of mana just to reduce the amount of damage he just received.
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I got destroyed by Shyvana top, though I think if I played it again I might do better. Burnout is fast enough to catch up to you through level 1 Decrepify, and burnout damage + auto-Q from shyv outtrades torment/decrep damage. Maybe with an earlier point in Nevermove, it would be Swain win.
Also, I beat the last few olafs I played against top. You can bully him with torment + autos for the first few levels and save decrep for if he hits an axe. As long as you hit 6 when or before he does (and with enough health) you can just run away if he ghost+ults at you. I would consider running ghost in some matchups as Swain, btw. He can make much better use of the sticking/long-term fleeing power than most other AP casters.
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I've played Swain mostly as my go-to pick against Morgana players. Swain seems to be able to bully her pretty hard in a straight up fight, although she pushes pretty hard for poor old Swain, and brings a strong team fight presence that Swain can't match.
What do you guys think of that matchup?
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Cassiopeia only real problem. She does more damage than you at all points in the game. Ryze goes even: you beat him early but he beats you later. Leblanc is kind of a problem, but you just bring all the MR you can and then wait until you are way more relevant. Once she can't 1-shot you anymore you can CAW CAW CAW.
Old Kat used to be a problem because her heal reduction was spammable, haven't played vs new Kat.
Hardest matchup top for me was Lee. He just gives no fucks about your Q and W and then hits you for half your HP.
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On November 18 2012 14:20 Wetty wrote:
I've played Swain mostly as my go-to pick against Morgana players. Swain seems to be able to bully her pretty hard in a straight up fight, although she pushes pretty hard for poor old Swain, and brings a strong team fight presence that Swain can't match.
What do you guys think of that matchup?
She pushes way harder than you do, ive thought about just maxing W instead of E in this matchup truthfully, she'll be able to hurr durr farm the entire wave with no effort,s o you need somethign to do the same thing.
Also to the person above, always start with W then E Q E.
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Swain mid's much stronger since the range buff on his Q I think, I haven't played him much there since, but one of his problems before that was his range, as in if he wanted to hurt you he had to hit his 18s cd Nevermove just to be able to get close enough to cast his Q without you immediatly breaking the tether.
Considering what's FotM, I'd say he fares better mid than top now (the opposite may have been true before) because of the power creep regarding gap closers, trading power and mobility in general.
Most of the champs that are annoying in lane (ie. longer ranged generally, because that makes them harder to catch and keep in Q/R range, or who can straight up 100-0 him) are outscaled later (Lux, Xerath, LB), so as long as he farms he doesn't care too much.
How does he do against Karthus btw? WoP outranges almost anything Swain has, and he's pretty much required to sit in Defile for the 5 seconds (due to the slow) if he wants to do any damage to him. Should he just farm, use QE to bully Karthus, and if caught by a WoP, try to minimize the damage then come back as soon as his cooldowns are back up (shorter than WoP's 18 seconds, except for Nevermove)?
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On November 18 2012 16:07 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 14:20 Wetty wrote:
I've played Swain mostly as my go-to pick against Morgana players. Swain seems to be able to bully her pretty hard in a straight up fight, although she pushes pretty hard for poor old Swain, and brings a strong team fight presence that Swain can't match.
What do you guys think of that matchup? She pushes way harder than you do, ive thought about just maxing W instead of E in this matchup truthfully, she'll be able to hurr durr farm the entire wave with no effort,s o you need somethign to do the same thing. Also to the person above, always start with W then E Q E.
I don't see the point in starting W unless you're going to invade or see a invade coming.
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On November 18 2012 22:42 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 16:07 arb wrote:On November 18 2012 14:20 Wetty wrote:
I've played Swain mostly as my go-to pick against Morgana players. Swain seems to be able to bully her pretty hard in a straight up fight, although she pushes pretty hard for poor old Swain, and brings a strong team fight presence that Swain can't match.
What do you guys think of that matchup? She pushes way harder than you do, ive thought about just maxing W instead of E in this matchup truthfully, she'll be able to hurr durr farm the entire wave with no effort,s o you need somethign to do the same thing. Also to the person above, always start with W then E Q E. I don't see the point in starting W unless you're going to invade or see a invade coming.
It's also pretty useful for your jungler when you leash.
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So you are going to forfeit the monstrous early game advantage that swain has over 90% of the hero's by taking a ability that is not even supposed to land and catch anyone with half a brain if you're Q isn't already slowing them,just so you can leash a buff for extra 2 seconds?
A lvl 1 W does no damage,it's like a auto attack and a half,has a massive cooldown,depletes a third of your mana and you're not even supposed to hit it(even if you do it won't do much)
Swain's early game strength lies in spamming E,Q and autos on people whenever it's off cd,leach the mana back with last hits,rinse and repeat.Taking W first will do nothing to exploit that.
EQ is a incredible lane bully combo,it will burn through peoples health pots in no time so you want to get it asap in most cases unless maybe you are getting a early gank and than you take W at lvl 2.
Early levels is when you start asserting your dominance as swain,taking W first won't do anything to help you with that in a 1v1 situation.Take it if you are gonna invade or you see people running into your jungle,apart from that I wouldn't take it before lvl 3 or 4.
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On November 18 2012 22:24 Alaric wrote:
How does he do against Karthus btw? WoP outranges almost anything Swain has, and he's pretty much required to sit in Defile for the 5 seconds (due to the slow) if he wants to do any damage to him. Should he just farm, use QE to bully Karthus, and if caught by a WoP, try to minimize the damage then come back as soon as his cooldowns are back up (shorter than WoP's 18 seconds, except for Nevermove)?
It's basically Cass-lite; in theory, Karthus should win pretty handily with Skittles/Wall kiting and farming. However, that entails a. Karthus having the mechanical skill to pull that off b. Having a brain to realize he can't trade up front ever c. Not screwing a or b up at any point, even if he's leading, because you can punish him very hard for it. So basically depends on how good the Karthus is.
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On November 18 2012 22:24 Alaric wrote:
Swain mid's much stronger since the range buff on his Q I think, I haven't played him much there since, but one of his problems before that was his range, as in if he wanted to hurt you he had to hit his 18s cd Nevermove just to be able to get close enough to cast his Q without you immediatly breaking the tether.
Considering what's FotM, I'd say he fares better mid than top now (the opposite may have been true before) because of the power creep regarding gap closers, trading power and mobility in general.
Most of the champs that are annoying in lane (ie. longer ranged generally, because that makes them harder to catch and keep in Q/R range, or who can straight up 100-0 him) are outscaled later (Lux, Xerath, LB), so as long as he farms he doesn't care too much.
How does he do against Karthus btw? WoP outranges almost anything Swain has, and he's pretty much required to sit in Defile for the 5 seconds (due to the slow) if he wants to do any damage to him. Should he just farm, use QE to bully Karthus, and if caught by a WoP, try to minimize the damage then come back as soon as his cooldowns are back up (shorter than WoP's 18 seconds, except for Nevermove)?
I played the match up a couple of times as Karthus and I feel it's an annoying match up. It's easy to get outplayed as Karthus because Swain's spells are targeted. It reminds me of Karthus vs Vladimir, but much harder pre-6 and much easier post-6.
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On November 18 2012 22:42 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 16:07 arb wrote:On November 18 2012 14:20 Wetty wrote:
I've played Swain mostly as my go-to pick against Morgana players. Swain seems to be able to bully her pretty hard in a straight up fight, although she pushes pretty hard for poor old Swain, and brings a strong team fight presence that Swain can't match.
What do you guys think of that matchup? She pushes way harder than you do, ive thought about just maxing W instead of E in this matchup truthfully, she'll be able to hurr durr farm the entire wave with no effort,s o you need somethign to do the same thing. Also to the person above, always start with W then E Q E. I don't see the point in starting W unless you're going to invade or see a invade coming.
I'd much rather have W for that level two gank than E, I always get it just to be safe incase of a lvl 2 lee sin gank or something retarded like that, that e wont save you from
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On November 18 2012 12:41 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 12:36 NeoIllusions wrote:On November 18 2012 12:34 schmutttt wrote:
Just picked up swain, who do you guys think are a bad matchup for him? So far I've learnt ryze and Irelia are pretty hard. Cass for mid. Top Lane (where I play Swain), he should be a counter for most of the time. He fares well against bruisers. If you see Cass and youre going mid you better pray to whatever you believe in that shes awful as fuck. Because if she has a brain she'll take her long snake dick and stick up your feathered ass
Trade E+Q with her Q>EE and then walk away. She can't chase after you or she just eats the entire amplified tether damage.
Itemization on Swain is simple imo. You need RoA asap. After that, usually Zhonya's and a chalice (grail eventually) and then follow it up with whatever you need. More tankys? Grab SV or QSS depending on the amount of ignites. More damage? Build a hat. Heavy MR enemy team? Work on a Void Staff if you're not dying too fast.
Also, if I'm losing lane or getting camped, I just build a chalice and try to sustain the lane the best I can, while working towards RoA after that. Really sucks for Swain, since if he doesn't win lane, he doesn't contribute much to a team overall.
Swain doesn't have many bad matchups mid. Ori can break even and poke him safely. Ryze needs to farm the best the can, as he will slowly outscale and outdamage Swain. LB is a bitch early, but you build chalice and mercs and farm up RoA then laugh as she can't kill you ever again.
I'd probably say Zyra has the best chance against him. She has enough range to kill him. Only thing to worry about is getting hit by his w. If you get hit by it below 75% health, you're a goner.
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On November 20 2012 14:19 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 12:41 arb wrote:On November 18 2012 12:36 NeoIllusions wrote:On November 18 2012 12:34 schmutttt wrote:
Just picked up swain, who do you guys think are a bad matchup for him? So far I've learnt ryze and Irelia are pretty hard. Cass for mid. Top Lane (where I play Swain), he should be a counter for most of the time. He fares well against bruisers. If you see Cass and youre going mid you better pray to whatever you believe in that shes awful as fuck. Because if she has a brain she'll take her long snake dick and stick up your feathered ass Trade E+Q with her Q>EE and then walk away. She can't chase after you or she just eats the entire amplified tether damage. Itemization on Swain is simple imo. You need RoA asap. After that, usually Zhonya's and a chalice (grail eventually) and then follow it up with whatever you need. More tankys? Grab SV or QSS depending on the amount of ignites. More damage? Build a hat. Heavy MR enemy team? Work on a Void Staff if you're not dying too fast. Also, if I'm losing lane or getting camped, I just build a chalice and try to sustain the lane the best I can, while working towards RoA after that. Really sucks for Swain, since if he doesn't win lane, he doesn't contribute much to a team overall. Swain doesn't have many bad matchups mid. Ori can break even and poke him safely. Ryze needs to farm the best the can, as he will slowly outscale and outdamage Swain. LB is a bitch early, but you build chalice and mercs and farm up RoA then laugh as she can't kill you ever again. I'd probably say Zyra has the best chance against him. She has enough range to kill him. Only thing to worry about is getting hit by his w. If you get hit by it below 75% health, you're a goner.
beating her before 6 isnt that bad imo, i beat one earlier infact(she wasnt very good i dont think tho) but trying to trade e+q with her when she gets 6 is just suicide.
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On November 20 2012 15:32 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 14:19 Cloud9157 wrote:On November 18 2012 12:41 arb wrote:On November 18 2012 12:36 NeoIllusions wrote:On November 18 2012 12:34 schmutttt wrote:
Just picked up swain, who do you guys think are a bad matchup for him? So far I've learnt ryze and Irelia are pretty hard. Cass for mid. Top Lane (where I play Swain), he should be a counter for most of the time. He fares well against bruisers. If you see Cass and youre going mid you better pray to whatever you believe in that shes awful as fuck. Because if she has a brain she'll take her long snake dick and stick up your feathered ass Trade E+Q with her Q>EE and then walk away. She can't chase after you or she just eats the entire amplified tether damage. Itemization on Swain is simple imo. You need RoA asap. After that, usually Zhonya's and a chalice (grail eventually) and then follow it up with whatever you need. More tankys? Grab SV or QSS depending on the amount of ignites. More damage? Build a hat. Heavy MR enemy team? Work on a Void Staff if you're not dying too fast. Also, if I'm losing lane or getting camped, I just build a chalice and try to sustain the lane the best I can, while working towards RoA after that. Really sucks for Swain, since if he doesn't win lane, he doesn't contribute much to a team overall. Swain doesn't have many bad matchups mid. Ori can break even and poke him safely. Ryze needs to farm the best the can, as he will slowly outscale and outdamage Swain. LB is a bitch early, but you build chalice and mercs and farm up RoA then laugh as she can't kill you ever again. I'd probably say Zyra has the best chance against him. She has enough range to kill him. Only thing to worry about is getting hit by his w. If you get hit by it below 75% health, you're a goner. beating her before 6 isnt that bad imo, i beat one earlier infact(she wasnt very good i dont think tho) but trying to trade e+q with her when she gets 6 is just suicide.
Agreed. Cassie is a very reactive lane for me. How I build birdman is dependent on how the lane went pre-6. If I outrade her enough to zone her/kill her/get a gank, I'm usually fine with building catalyst straight away. But if we go even or she beats me, I usually grab mercs at the least, and even a chalice if it was that bad. I actually run health/5 yellows on Swain, so Cassie shouldn't be able to 100-0 me, and even have trouble killing me below 75% health if I have 2 of the 3: cata/mercs/chalice. Frankly, as long as you ult before she stuns, you should survive her damage, even with ignite going down on you.
So yeah, slight advantage pre-6 for Swain imo, after that, it becomes Cassie's favor, but not enough to say Swain has no chance.
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So I'm super excited for the new items, especially on Swain. So many things to try!
Liandry's: the way this item is described just seems like it will have perfect synergy with an EQ combo. I'm thinking get an early Haunting Guise + Sorc Shoes to maximize your early game reign of terror, then finish the full item when you have decent mana + resists?
Spirit Visage: big buff on this item seems like it will become great for Swain. 15%, 20% heal increase, big MR and a chunk of HP, looking mighty fine.
Clarity: all depends on the numbers, but I think a % mana back will be really fucking good for Swain. Will be able to bait hard core "aha Swain is oom, time to go ham, oh shit CAWCAWCAW".
Ohmwrecker: Swain likes Catalyst and he also like an early Chain Vest, so this item could be fun to play around with. Hourglass is overrated for Swain anyway (albeit still good).
Tear: I think it will still be too hard to charge for it to be good for Swain, but who knows? If he can do it then a big shield + giant mana pool are obviously amazing for him.
Anyone on PBE already done some playing around with these combos?
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I think the issue with new Visage will be the increased cost. At the moment it's a nice mid game survivability boost, but it's still a lot of money not spent shoring up his mana pool or increasing his damage which will be more of a problem with the new Visage.
I think he's one champ that won't change that much with the new items. He's still going to need tons of mana, he's still going to have trouble charging Tear. Zhonya's will still be amazing. Athenes will still be blue-lite despite the nerf. Liandry's is the item he can really get huge milage out of, I think that will be a must buy at some point. I note that the passive has a half duration (not effect) on aoe and dot effects which shouldn't hurt him at all given you'll be constantly CAWCAW. New/old Deathfires is another possibility to shore up his lack of burst.
Lich Bane might be another option given he'll regularly be in range for AAs.
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I think it will be very easy for him to charge Tear in s3. He can just turn his ult on for one second to charge tear stacks once for 25 mana. He can do this once every 6 seconds.
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His ult has more than 6 seconds cd... it's 8s base cd (thought it was still 10, but that was buffed some time ago) and you won't have the CDR yet if you buy an early tear.
Torment + DFG would be 18% of the target's max HP, 20% damage increase for everyone and 40 or 44% for him (depending on how they stack) for a bit less than 4s.
Considering that Torment is basically 280 + AP damage by itself when accounting for its damage buff... and the fact that he'll heal 40/44% more from that target too through his ult, it's quite an interesting 1v1 item or tanky wrecker. But Swain's so hungry for costly items (RoA followed by deathcap/zhonya/new DFG is a NLR and at least 3K gold) that I have no idea how it'll work out.
New SV may be better than Abyssal (or a good stacking opportunity if the jungler/other sololaner is an abyssal user himself) since it'll give around as much MR.
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On November 21 2012 16:09 Sufficiency wrote:
I think it will be very easy for him to charge Tear in s3. He can just turn his ult on for one second to charge tear stacks once for 25 mana. He can do this once every 6 seconds.
You can't just spam your ult on/off in lane, your opponent will punish you when it's down.
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Hourglass is 100% not overrated on Swain. If it doesn't feel powerful you're not abusing it enough.
I don't think Liandry's is going to be that great. Guise/Sorcs is great for laning but it doesn't give you the mana pool for teamfighting. Damage from Liandry's isn't going to be as significant as just building some AP items (Swain has really good ratios you guys).
Tear will be good not because it's easier to charge (the point of tear has never been "how fast can I fully charge this thing" but "are there more cost-effective ways to get the mana pool I need"). Now that Tear is ~300 gold cheaper, it's much easier to get one early and follow up with the resists you need to shore up your lane. Everything else is just a minor bonus - faster charging, more pressure on your opponents to stop you from farming, more lategame inevitability with that shield.
Ohmwrecker: Nice build path, but it doesn't give you enough of the stats you want. Maybe a niche buy, but it's almost definitely going to be better to do RoA -> Hourglass. Most of the cost of the upgrade is the active - unless you're getting lots of mileage out of disabling towers, this is going to be mostly a slot-efficiency upgrade.
The resistance changes are going to make %magic pen much stronger to get early. I'm feeling Zhonya->SV->Void as an efficient way to get the stats you want.
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I am pretty sure Tear currently has everything to do with "how fast can I fully charge this thing". Otherwise every Singed would have built it. For 990 gold, you get 1350 max mana when charged (AND it builds into AA which synergize with getting even more mana). Nothing else comes even remotely close to this right now.
On November 21 2012 23:02 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2012 16:09 Sufficiency wrote:
I think it will be very easy for him to charge Tear in s3. He can just turn his ult on for one second to charge tear stacks once for 25 mana. He can do this once every 6 seconds. You can't just spam your ult on/off in lane, your opponent will punish you when it's down.
The point is to spam your R when you are not in lane and not in combat. In lane you naturally stack Tear simply by harassing the enemy/sustain yourself using R.
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You don't buy tear so you can charge it. You buy tear so that you have a large mana pool; charging it is a means to that end. (It's a semantic distinction, but an important one.)
So the question facing a Swain player is "Is Tear the best way to increase my mana pool?" Currently, the answer is almost always no - Tear is awkward to build and leaves you vulnerable to all but the stompiest lanes. (Side note: if you're winning your lane hard you should consider buying Tear instead of Catalyst.)
Catalyst serves three important functions in lane for Swain. The first is as a source of hp and mana regen. Even with ult and blue, Swain can use more health and mana. The second is as general-purpose survivability. The third is a boost to mana pool.
Tear only offers one of these things, and early on not even cost-efficiently. However, with the Tear cost reduction it will be much easier to fill in the other two (Tear, Flask and NMM or Cloth as matchup-appropriate, perhaps?)
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What do people think of the new items? torment+sorc boots seems like a decent choice on him as an opening item if you're good with your mana management. 35 MP, health, AP and a current health shred. I think it might be a go to if you're a competent swain player since it's cheaper than RoA and significantly stronger for your damage output. ROA is kind of overkill for sustain and tankyness that early.
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On November 22 2012 05:38 Tooplark wrote:
You don't buy tear so you can charge it. You buy tear so that you have a large mana pool; charging it is a means to that end. (It's a semantic distinction, but an important one.)
So the question facing a Swain player is "Is Tear the best way to increase my mana pool?" Currently, the answer is almost always no - Tear is awkward to build and leaves you vulnerable to all but the stompiest lanes. (Side note: if you're winning your lane hard you should consider buying Tear instead of Catalyst.)
Catalyst serves three important functions in lane for Swain. The first is as a source of hp and mana regen. Even with ult and blue, Swain can use more health and mana. The second is as general-purpose survivability. The third is a boost to mana pool.
Tear only offers one of these things, and early on not even cost-efficiently. However, with the Tear cost reduction it will be much easier to fill in the other two (Tear, Flask and NMM or Cloth as matchup-appropriate, perhaps?)
We are just arguing that in S3 Tear will be a far better buy for Swain than previously.
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Hourglass is core on Swain lolwut
Also, even suggesting anything but ignite/flash on Swain is just dead wrong imo. I mean, if you wanted to run ghost instead of Flash, I could see that (flash>>>>Ghost still imo). Ignite is a HUGE part of his combo, since Torment will amplify its dot. You lose way too much damage by not taking it.
I wondered how these new items would benefit Swain, but idk. Haven't checked many yet, but all I know is Swain needs mostly health+mana. He doesn't need pure ap like most mages, since he has 2 single target spells.
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Swain needs a health buffer to survive burst, then he likes resistances better, and mana.
So RoA for the health buffer, the laning comfort of catalyst, and a good start on mana. Then resistances/mana -> grail, abyssal, FH, Zhonya, new SV are good choices.
Of course if you're fed deathcap is a huge boost to your healing capabilities.
Liandry's isn't that interesting since it deals its damage based on current HP%, despite it affecting 3 targets thanks to your ult. For additional damage, the new DFG is simply better: possible synergy with torment, a lot of AP for your combo, a big nuke (18% max HP after eating a max level Torment), and some CDR that'll make you hit the cap with blue buff or grail (depending on masteries choice).
Maxing CDR on Swain isn't particularly important, but having a bit so that you can use your ult on a 5-6s cd instead of the usual 8 is quite a boon for being able to switch forms during teamfights (if you play Maokai, think about how as levels and CDR come, you go from 1 to 2, sometimes even 3 ults per fight, and how it can change things by neutering another spell combo), and having more uptime on Torment's debuff is never bad.
That's one thing I love about Swain: there are so many items that are good on him, you can't have a single build set in stone for him, contrary to a lot of other mages. Deathcap, SV, Abyssal, RoA, DFG, Zhonya, Void Staff, Rylai, FH, WotA are all workable on way or the other in a full-item build.
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On November 22 2012 07:23 Cloud9157 wrote:
Hourglass is core on Swain lolwut
Also, even suggesting anything but ignite/flash on Swain is just dead wrong imo. I mean, if you wanted to run ghost instead of Flash, I could see that (flash>>>>Ghost still imo). Ignite is a HUGE part of his combo, since Torment will amplify its dot. You lose way too much damage by not taking it.
I wondered how these new items would benefit Swain, but idk. Haven't checked many yet, but all I know is Swain needs mostly health+mana. He doesn't need pure ap like most mages, since he has 2 single target spells.
What the hell kind of attitude is that, the game is being flipped on its head with S3 and you think even suggesting anything but the status quo is dead wrong?
Between CD nerfs to Ignite and big buffs to Clarity, it should definitely be considered. Lessened reliance on getting an early mana item + huge duration ultimates later both sound really powerful. With Clarity early you can be much more aggressive with Decrepify usage.
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On November 22 2012 06:32 Thereisnosaurus wrote:
What do people think of the new items? torment+sorc boots seems like a decent choice on him as an opening item if you're good with your mana management. 35 MP, health, AP and a current health shred. I think it might be a go to if you're a competent swain player since it's cheaper than RoA and significantly stronger for your damage output. ROA is kind of overkill for sustain and tankyness that early.
Being good managing mana might help you in lane, but his ult is going to eat through his base mana pool like nothing.
Having a huge mana pool for maximum caw cawing and spell spam is key imo.
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On November 22 2012 09:51 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 07:23 Cloud9157 wrote:
Hourglass is core on Swain lolwut
Also, even suggesting anything but ignite/flash on Swain is just dead wrong imo. I mean, if you wanted to run ghost instead of Flash, I could see that (flash>>>>Ghost still imo). Ignite is a HUGE part of his combo, since Torment will amplify its dot. You lose way too much damage by not taking it.
I wondered how these new items would benefit Swain, but idk. Haven't checked many yet, but all I know is Swain needs mostly health+mana. He doesn't need pure ap like most mages, since he has 2 single target spells. What the hell kind of attitude is that, the game is being flipped on its head with S3 and you think even suggesting anything but the status quo is dead wrong? Between CD nerfs to Ignite and big buffs to Clarity, it should definitely be considered. Lessened reliance on getting an early mana item + huge duration ultimates later both sound really powerful. With Clarity early you can be much more aggressive with Decrepify usage.
Maybe saying dead wrong was the wrong wording. But despite the cd nerf on ignite, I still don't see why you would bring any other spell in place of it. Like I said, its rough passing up the damage it does when amplified.
Also, the whole concern with Swain running oom in fights (which he does if they are drawn out enough) is fixed with a Grail. Getting mana back on kill/assist is really nice, considering there are most likely 3 people on the enemy team that should die before you.
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On November 22 2012 11:39 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 09:51 Alzadar wrote:On November 22 2012 07:23 Cloud9157 wrote:
Hourglass is core on Swain lolwut
Also, even suggesting anything but ignite/flash on Swain is just dead wrong imo. I mean, if you wanted to run ghost instead of Flash, I could see that (flash>>>>Ghost still imo). Ignite is a HUGE part of his combo, since Torment will amplify its dot. You lose way too much damage by not taking it.
I wondered how these new items would benefit Swain, but idk. Haven't checked many yet, but all I know is Swain needs mostly health+mana. He doesn't need pure ap like most mages, since he has 2 single target spells. What the hell kind of attitude is that, the game is being flipped on its head with S3 and you think even suggesting anything but the status quo is dead wrong? Between CD nerfs to Ignite and big buffs to Clarity, it should definitely be considered. Lessened reliance on getting an early mana item + huge duration ultimates later both sound really powerful. With Clarity early you can be much more aggressive with Decrepify usage. Maybe saying dead wrong was the wrong wording. But despite the cd nerf on ignite, I still don't see why you would bring any other spell in place of it. Like I said, its rough passing up the damage it does when amplified. Also, the whole concern with Swain running oom in fights (which he does if they are drawn out enough) is fixed with a Grail. Getting mana back on kill/assist is really nice, considering there are most likely 3 people on the enemy team that should die before you.
Id agree with almost always taking Ignite but sometimes i think exhaust could be more beneficial. No option besides flash worth considering tho.
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If you have RoA, Grail is total overkill for Swain's mana issues. You'd really only get it for the CDR and MR, but Spirit Visage is better for that.
Perhaps a Chalice for laning instead of Catalyst and then skip RoA entirely, but that feels a lot more awkward since I'd rather have a bigger mana pool (not to mention real sustain instead of mana sustain converted into HP via ult).
Swain's only weaknesses in teamfights are insane burst damage that kills you before you can CAW CAW enough, and ignite. Money spent on Athene's could've gone to Zhonya's or QSS which will help way more than the extra mana sustain. If your limiting factor in killing everything in a teamfight comes from not being able to keep bird up continuously for 20 seconds, then you pretty much could've built anything and crushed faces.
tl;dr RoA/Athene's is either or for Swain. He doesn't have Anivia-tier mana issues.
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So quick test on the PBE, I could fill Tear reasonably fast just by doing what I normally do, no collecting tear stacks with blind Bird forms or anything like that. And Seraph felt like a strong item on Swain (smaller and less reliable HP buffer, but larger AP and mana pool). The problem is that ROA comes online more quickly and has a stronger early build path via Catalyst; the mana shield upgrade would be awkwardly delayed 5-10 minutes from ROA completion. While a Tear isn't a huge divergence from a ROA build path (before or just after Cata seems reasonable, delay ROA completion a bit), it would essentially function as a second ROA at the time where we want something like Hourglass or DC/newDFG. I dunno, it's a rock solid third item, but I'm not super confident it's worth the Tear hassle.
/ramble
Also, "Grizzled yet Classy Master of the Battlefield" Northern Front or "Muhaha there's nothing you can do to stop me foolish heroes my plan is nearly complete et cetera" Tyrant skin?
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On November 22 2012 15:19 ManyCookies wrote:
So quick test on the PBE, I could fill Tear reasonably fast just by doing what I normally do, no collecting tear stacks with blind Bird forms or anything like that. And Seraph felt like a strong item on Swain (smaller and less reliable HP buffer, but larger AP and mana pool). The problem is that ROA comes online more quickly and has a stronger early build path via Catalyst; the mana shield upgrade would be awkwardly delayed 5-10 minutes from ROA completion. While a Tear isn't a huge divergence from a ROA build path (before or just after Cata seems reasonable, delay ROA completion a bit), it would essentially function as a second ROA at the time where we want something like Hourglass or DC/newDFG. I dunno, it's a rock solid third item, but I'm not super confident it's worth the Tear hassle.
/ramble
Also, "Grizzled yet Classy Master of the Battlefield" Northern Front or "Muhaha there's nothing you can do to stop me foolish heroes my plan is nearly complete et cetera" Tyrant skin?
I like Tyrant swain, but some people like Northern Front all in personal pref imo
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Yeah have and love Northern Front, but if Tyrant came on sale I'd have a hard time turning it down.
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Tyrant's ult is simply badass.
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Frostblade Irelia is on sale this week; that skin was introduced on May 1st. Tyrant Swain was introduced on May 23rd. So it will be on sale in ~3 weeks maybe?
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On November 22 2012 13:05 xes wrote:
If you have RoA, Grail is total overkill for Swain's mana issues. You'd really only get it for the CDR and MR, but Spirit Visage is better for that.
Perhaps a Chalice for laning instead of Catalyst and then skip RoA entirely, but that feels a lot more awkward since I'd rather have a bigger mana pool (not to mention real sustain instead of mana sustain converted into HP via ult).
Swain's only weaknesses in teamfights are insane burst damage that kills you before you can CAW CAW enough, and ignite. Money spent on Athene's could've gone to Zhonya's or QSS which will help way more than the extra mana sustain. If your limiting factor in killing everything in a teamfight comes from not being able to keep bird up continuously for 20 seconds, then you pretty much could've built anything and crushed faces.
tl;dr RoA/Athene's is either or for Swain. He doesn't have Anivia-tier mana issues.
Just my opinion on the matter. A rod doesn't sustain like a Grail would in terms of mana. Not saying its a second item on him, just a reactive item to build on him. If you notice that fights tend to get drawn out long enough to the point that your mana pool just turns to nothing and you aren't dying, Grail is a very nice counter to this situation.
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Swain generally cares more about a massive mana pool than he cares about sustain. Grail isn't going to keep you in bird form longer during a teamfight, and if you don't have the wherewithal to cancel bird form before you're at 0 mana, you need to improve mana management.
Agreed that money spent on athene's should instead be a Zhonya which still gives you the damage while letting you pull off some ridiculous shit with the golden bird. (Also, spirit visage for MR/CDR- though this might be less great in S3 with cost &
Also, why would you switch off using ignite on one of the best ignite carriers in the game? Swain does more damage than anyone else with ignite! [torment affects it]
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Summoner spells on Swain:
Flash Ignite pretty much always. There are situationally better summoner choices, particularly Ghost > Flash against people you want to kite. Ghost may prove to be better than Flash on Swain after the boots change, particularly top lane.
I would only swap out Ignite in the absolute easiest or hardest lanes. It's a huge amount of killing power that scales extraordinarily and helps you blow up both tanks and squishies. Especially against anyone with reasonable healing potential, Ignite is a must.
The only thing I would consider taking over ignite is Flash/Ghost or Cleanse. For 1600 gold I can get Quicksilver Sash which does the important part of Cleanse, removes healing debuffs (cleanse at the very least doesn't remove the ignite healing debuff, not sure about the others), and gives me MR. Cleanse is only in a really bad lane where I'm super pressed for gold but also seriously need the active. Flash/Ghost is if I can get mad kills with ignite; the combination makes getting away from jungle ganks easier, allowing me to pressure my lane harder; positioning is also very important in teamfights, and ghost will often make up for ignite in terms of total damage output through positioning power.
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On November 24 2012 09:49 sylverfyre wrote:
Swain generally cares more about a massive mana pool than he cares about sustain. Grail isn't going to keep you in bird form longer during a teamfight, and if you don't have the wherewithal to cancel bird form before you're at 0 mana, you need to improve mana management.
Agreed that money spent on athene's should instead be a Zhonya which still gives you the damage while letting you pull off some ridiculous shit with the golden bird. (Also, spirit visage for MR/CDR- though this might be less great in S3 with cost &
Also, why would you switch off using ignite on one of the best ignite carriers in the game? Swain does more damage than anyone else with ignite! [torment affects it]
Receiving 12% of your max mana back on kill/assist isn't good for mana sustain during team fights? Since when?
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On November 24 2012 09:49 sylverfyre wrote:
Swain generally cares more about a massive mana pool than he cares about sustain. Grail isn't going to keep you in bird form longer during a teamfight, and if you don't have the wherewithal to cancel bird form before you're at 0 mana, you need to improve mana management.
Agreed that money spent on athene's should instead be a Zhonya which still gives you the damage while letting you pull off some ridiculous shit with the golden bird. (Also, spirit visage for MR/CDR- though this might be less great in S3 with cost &
Also, why would you switch off using ignite on one of the best ignite carriers in the game? Swain does more damage than anyone else with ignite! [torment affects it]
I gave reasoning for why you would want to use Exhaust in the OP. I never use it but the options always there if you need it.
Getting 12% mana back on kill/assist is absolutely huge, grail will keep you cawcawing longer and allow you to throw out more spells too
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You know, I completely forgot about grail's second mana gain mechanic. My bad. That makes it seem a whole lot better than I was giving it credit for.
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Think i may experiment with Cata/Tear and post back with results
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On December 06 2012 09:05 arb wrote:
Think i may experiment with Cata/Tear and post back with results
Pfeh! Your foolish mages have Ability Power! But I - I have birds fueled by PURE MANA.
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On December 06 2012 12:18 Tooplark wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 09:05 arb wrote:
Think i may experiment with Cata/Tear and post back with results Pfeh! Your foolish mages have Ability Power! But I - I have birds fueled by PURE MANA.
That makes 2 birds in the game that like mana :3
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what do you think about void staff now?
something like sorc/roa/abyssal/void should deal retarded amounts of dmg no ?
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On December 06 2012 12:34 sAsImre wrote:
what do you think about void staff now?
something like sorc/roa/abyssal/void should deal retarded amounts of dmg no ?
Think it could be okay, ive never really felt an overwhelming need to get it, you should be jumping all over their squishys(who wont have much MR to begin with) or peeling for your AD(where you wont really need it anyways) So I dunno i guess it could be good but i dunno truthfully.
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Pretty sold on Tear after playing it in a game, sitting at almost 3000 mana at lvl 18, in place of just 1700 makes a giant ass difference.
Solid core now imo seems like, boots 3 -> cata -> tear -> rod -> situational
might not even need to get chalice now since you'll have that extra 1k mana. unless you needed MR, in which case you could grab an abyssal then.
Also grabbed sorcs + liandrys after rod, seemed hella strong on him too. the sustained damage you do with torment + liandrys + ult + lazerbird is kinda unreal, + you get a good chunk of health from them too which never really hurts
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I'm in agreement on Liandry's. You lose half the duration, but more damage when you drop lazor bird on opponents. Early game is still pretty much catalyst though, with a few exceptions. Overall, item build is pretty much the same. Rod and Hourglass are the most important items on him.
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SV 2.0 is so good. With that and Liandry's, I'm thinking you could actually skip RoA
Been trying to play Tear/Flask -> Haunting/Sorcs -> Zhonyas -> SV/Liandry situationally
Zhonyas/SV makes you deceptively tanky, even though you end up ~200 HP less than you would going RoA.
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Keep in mind you lose a decent chunk of mana without rod.
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United States37500 Posts
On December 08 2012 05:06 Cloud9157 wrote:
Keep in mind you lose a decent chunk of mana without rod.
Tear?
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On December 08 2012 05:08 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 05:06 Cloud9157 wrote:
Keep in mind you lose a decent chunk of mana without rod. Tear?
Was referencing his SV+Liandry's bit, but if you get a tear, then I could see it working.
I don't know how to feel with tear still. It would be awesome on Swain, but he doesn't really have spammable spells overall. If you look at tear candidates like Karthus/Ryze, they both have spells that you can use every 4 seconds.
May have to try it today. I mean, new season, fuckin yolo right?
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Tear now procs when you use mana, which means 3 seconds of bird form goes through your tear charges.
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Well thats just silly then.
I mean, why are all of you still going rod? Tear is obv. core on Swain now. >.>
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Because catalyst is more useful in lane and Roa gives you a pretty nice health pool, which Swain likes in reasonable quantities.
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On December 08 2012 06:23 Cloud9157 wrote:
Well thats just silly then.
I mean, why are all of you still going rod? Tear is obv. core on Swain now. >.>
Cause health and ap + mana, its still really good. Cata is way better in lane than tear too.
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Is this build still ok? Is Liandry's a good choice now that we are in season 3?
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On December 21 2012 04:16 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
Is this build still ok? Is Liandry's a good choice now that we are in season 3?
You still need Rod since you need health to not die instantly so it should still be core. Usually now i'll go Tear+Cata -> RoA. Then build situational after that. Not sure if you need Chalice/Athenes since new Tear is so good.
Liandrys i think is okay too, its going to give you an extra dot which i think is amplified by E, and since swain is more of a sustained dps than a burst caster its not too bad imo.
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what skill u max 1st/2nd for swain and what items do u build 1st?
I always get ROA > WOTA > abyssal not sure if i am on the right track.
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Don't build spell vamp on swain.
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The thing about Swain is he benefits from almost every stat quite a bit. Everything tanky or castery is good. The challenge is prioritizing it well.
The three main things Swain needs are:
1) Enough mana to comfortably stay in ult
2) Enough hp/resists to live in the middle of their team
3) Enough AP to actually do damage
Spellvamp is hard to itemize on Swain because the only items that give spellvamp don't give enough health or mana to make them priority builds. Also, his healing is better served by buying more AP and resists.
Rod is good because it gives a rounded, cost-efficient selection of stats and has a very nice build path.
Spirit Visage is good because it gives a LOT of (2
Tear is good because it gives a LOT of (1 for a low price
Zhonya's is good because it gives a nice combination of (2 via the active and (3
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I tried building Liandry's after RoA + Tear and it felt pretty good. Killing almost 1/3 of someone's health with a single rank 1 Q is kind of fun (and broken).
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Any tips on runes/masteries? Also, is he still viable top? (I remember he used to be a counterpick for some popular champs a few months ago in s3 when meta dictated almost exclusively bruisers there)
I've been wanting to try him for a long LONG time, even have some IP saved up ATM, but I generally dislike champs which can go exclusively in one lane, esp. if it's mid
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you can run him top but don't expect pubbers to be happy about it. He's very strong against people who don't know how to deal with him and very frustrating to lane against even if you do, his weakness is that he can't safely pressure or push that well until he gets a big item and level 9, even then if you want to push hard you need to use your CC to do it which is risky as hell against a competent bruiser player.
All things that can be dealt with, but don't expect to poop on teams easily in your first few games until you get a feel for leveling and controling the lane over time with skill choices and builds.
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On December 28 2012 07:58 Plague1503 wrote:
Any tips on runes/masteries? Also, is he still viable top? (I remember he used to be a counterpick for some popular champs a few months ago in s3 when meta dictated almost exclusively bruisers there)
I've been wanting to try him for a long LONG time, even have some IP saved up ATM, but I generally dislike champs which can go exclusively in one lane, esp. if it's mid
He's alot harder to play top, and against someone who can gapclose onto you and avoid your snare and slow from Q its kinda risky.
I run one of the two runepages shown in the OP personally.
either MS/AP quints is really the only difference. I like HP/L yellows too though.
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On December 21 2012 12:00 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 04:16 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
Is this build still ok? Is Liandry's a good choice now that we are in season 3? You still need Rod since you need health to not die instantly so it should still be core. Usually now i'll go Tear+Cata -> RoA. Then build situational after that. Not sure if you need Chalice/Athenes since new Tear is so good. Liandrys i think is okay too, its going to give you an extra dot which i think is amplified by E, and since swain is more of a sustained dps than a burst caster its not too bad imo.
What's the argument for tear? RoA+Tear just feels like way too much mana and after experimenting with skipping RoA, Catalyst is just too good to skip.
If you need more mana sustain because the teamfights are more drawn out (league of bruisers) then I would rather get Athene's, despite the nerfs. It doesn't break even with tear for mana until the 3rd proc, but the 15% CDR is still enormous in giving more flexibility in resetting ult in a teamfight and helping kite with q and w, which is why you would need more ult time sustain anyways.
Also, Tyrant Swain on sale this week l0l
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Because Tear is 700 gold. You could get that 15% cdr from all number of sources, such as Spirit Visage (more health, healing and MR), Glacial Shroud (more armor and mana, cheaper). Obviously, you aren't getting the AP or mana regen from Athene's, or the mana-restore-on-assist, but the flexibility that Tear allows is nice in many situations.
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I think with Tear you can build it into Archangel's and it serves as a damage item for Swain. At level 18 and max Tear + RoA, you get ~2800 mana - that gives you an extra 84 AP. The item itself gives 60 AP, so you get 144 AP from it, which seems pretty good to me considering its defensive uses and the huge amount of mana (allowing you to maintain your ult a few seconds longer).
Then again I have a bit of a fetish for Tear. I used to build it on a lot of champions (even in S2) when I got ahead.
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On January 16 2013 04:10 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 12:00 arb wrote:On December 21 2012 04:16 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
Is this build still ok? Is Liandry's a good choice now that we are in season 3? You still need Rod since you need health to not die instantly so it should still be core. Usually now i'll go Tear+Cata -> RoA. Then build situational after that. Not sure if you need Chalice/Athenes since new Tear is so good. Liandrys i think is okay too, its going to give you an extra dot which i think is amplified by E, and since swain is more of a sustained dps than a burst caster its not too bad imo. What's the argument for tear? RoA+Tear just feels like way too much mana and after experimenting with skipping RoA, Catalyst is just too good to skip. If you need more mana sustain because the teamfights are more drawn out (league of bruisers) then I would rather get Athene's, despite the nerfs. It doesn't break even with tear for mana until the 3rd proc, but the 15% CDR is still enormous in giving more flexibility in resetting ult in a teamfight and helping kite with q and w, which is why you would need more ult time sustain anyways. Also, Tyrant Swain on sale this week l0l
Then mana regen on Athenes(even with the 12% restore) isnt as valuable as having a larger mana pool to sustain everything longer. I mean sure you could get RoA Tear and Athenes and it wouldnt be a problem, but just regen stats cant keep Swains ult up forever, esp when you factor in spamming spells on cd and what have you
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I've personally been going tear->roa->hourglass(dcap first if already fed and not in danger)->seraph's&void. The thing is, for Swain a mana pool can be turned directly into more damage, and the shield comes in handy as well. The thing is he gets more and more scary as there become fewer targets, especially later in a fight when big cooldowns are gone. The shield and hourglass help immensely in this regard because the real danger to swain is burst damage, his healing when he's leeching off 2+ champions is absolutely immense and lets him survive a very high amount of sustained damage.
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On January 16 2013 07:20 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 04:10 xes wrote:On December 21 2012 12:00 arb wrote:On December 21 2012 04:16 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
Is this build still ok? Is Liandry's a good choice now that we are in season 3? You still need Rod since you need health to not die instantly so it should still be core. Usually now i'll go Tear+Cata -> RoA. Then build situational after that. Not sure if you need Chalice/Athenes since new Tear is so good. Liandrys i think is okay too, its going to give you an extra dot which i think is amplified by E, and since swain is more of a sustained dps than a burst caster its not too bad imo. What's the argument for tear? RoA+Tear just feels like way too much mana and after experimenting with skipping RoA, Catalyst is just too good to skip. If you need more mana sustain because the teamfights are more drawn out (league of bruisers) then I would rather get Athene's, despite the nerfs. It doesn't break even with tear for mana until the 3rd proc, but the 15% CDR is still enormous in giving more flexibility in resetting ult in a teamfight and helping kite with q and w, which is why you would need more ult time sustain anyways. Also, Tyrant Swain on sale this week l0l Then mana regen on Athenes(even with the 12% restore) isnt as valuable as having a larger mana pool to sustain everything longer. I mean sure you could get RoA Tear and Athenes and it wouldnt be a problem, but just regen stats cant keep Swains ult up forever, esp when you factor in spamming spells on cd and what have you
I usually go RoA first, then get a Chalice afterward but sit on it for a while before upgrading. Do you think that's non-ideal? I can't remember ever feeling like I needed a larger mana pool than RoA + Chalice. I suppose RoA + Tear would have about the same effect, but I don't particularly like the idea of delaying RoA by buying Tear, and buying Tear after RoA feels kind of late. I guess AA might add a nice amount of damage but it doesn't strike me as significantly better than Athene's or Mikhail's.
edit: I realize might be underestimating the value of the shield on Seraph's... I've never felt like I needed more health than RoA (in fact it took me a while to even appreciate getting RoA on Swain) but I think a lot of that might have to do with the opponents I'm facing (i.e. they generally don't focus/burst me very hard)
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On January 16 2013 07:44 danana wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 07:20 arb wrote:On January 16 2013 04:10 xes wrote:On December 21 2012 12:00 arb wrote:On December 21 2012 04:16 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
Is this build still ok? Is Liandry's a good choice now that we are in season 3? You still need Rod since you need health to not die instantly so it should still be core. Usually now i'll go Tear+Cata -> RoA. Then build situational after that. Not sure if you need Chalice/Athenes since new Tear is so good. Liandrys i think is okay too, its going to give you an extra dot which i think is amplified by E, and since swain is more of a sustained dps than a burst caster its not too bad imo. What's the argument for tear? RoA+Tear just feels like way too much mana and after experimenting with skipping RoA, Catalyst is just too good to skip. If you need more mana sustain because the teamfights are more drawn out (league of bruisers) then I would rather get Athene's, despite the nerfs. It doesn't break even with tear for mana until the 3rd proc, but the 15% CDR is still enormous in giving more flexibility in resetting ult in a teamfight and helping kite with q and w, which is why you would need more ult time sustain anyways. Also, Tyrant Swain on sale this week l0l Then mana regen on Athenes(even with the 12% restore) isnt as valuable as having a larger mana pool to sustain everything longer. I mean sure you could get RoA Tear and Athenes and it wouldnt be a problem, but just regen stats cant keep Swains ult up forever, esp when you factor in spamming spells on cd and what have you I usually go RoA first, then get a Chalice afterward but sit on it for a while before upgrading. Do you think that's non-ideal? I can't remember ever feeling like I needed a larger mana pool than RoA + Chalice. I suppose RoA + Tear would have about the same effect, but I don't particularly like the idea of delaying RoA by buying Tear, and buying Tear after RoA feels kind of late. I guess AA might add a nice amount of damage but it doesn't strike me as significantly better than Athene's or Mikhail's. edit: I realize might be underestimating the value of the shield on Seraph's... I've never felt like I needed more health than RoA (in fact it took me a while to even appreciate getting RoA on Swain) but I think a lot of that might have to do with the opponents I'm facing (i.e. they generally don't focus/burst me very hard)
The mana pool on Seraphs is great because generally the longer you can stay in bird form(where you're aoe damaging + healing) the better. The larger mana pool will help you do that, since his ult becomes very very mana hungry the longer its up. I doubt theres anything wrong with RoA + Grail now, but i dunno im just leaning towards tear myself.
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What does everyone think about the new Armguards item?
Swain is my main, and my normal build is:
Blue+pots (to rush catalyst) -> RoA -> t1 boots -> Rabby's -> t2 boots -> Abyssal or Zhonya (depending on who is most fed) -> Whichever of Abyssal or Zhonya I didn't buy.
However, it might be beneficial to go Cata->armguards->RoA->Zhonya, in order to start stacking the armguards AND RoA. Anyone tried this?
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Armguard stacks are absorbed into the Zhonya's upgrade, so there's no need to stack it early. It also stacks pretty fast,so just buy it if you need armor and upgrade it to zhonya's when it makes sense to.
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I don't like the blue+pots start. It goes against how Swain wins lane. Blue+pots doesn't give enough sustain to go for non-onesided trades early. Swain doesn't need the mana pool to keep harassing, and he can't use the mana to push early either. I'd rather open boots/flask/faerie+pots/wards.
IMO you're getting boots& especially boots2 very late. Sorc's are extremely cost efficient for damage. Having 15 mpen against a 50 MR target along with mpen marks and 8% passive pen increases damage by ~14%.
As for the armguard, I'd get it after Roa only if there is a lot of AD, then getting either abyssal or NLR->Dcap/hourglass depending on the amount/type of damage that's coming in.
The thing about Swain is that he's not a burst caster, he needs to be alive to keep dealing damage because he gets asymptotically harder to kill so long as his ult stays up as enemy cooldowns get expended and people are killed.
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I was used to running AD/armour/MR and either AD, MR or MS quints depending on the match-up, starting flask+pot+ward and trying to win the match-up by QEing my lane opponent whenever the occasion arose then following up with as many autos as possible, esp. levels 1-3.
Was having mixed results, and low kill potential since I also run Barrier over Ignite.
Tried to run MPen/armour/MR/AP against an Ahri, same start and summoners, except whenever she'd come close to me I'd try to hit a W, walk up to her and follow it with EQ autos, instead of holding on W to protect myself or if I see kill potential after tagging them with Q.
I don't know if it's the playstyle change, or the runes, but it seemed to inflict a lot more damage on every trade (despite Ahri coming in lane with 48 MR), no matter how many autos I usually land.
I relied on MS quints/21 util a lot to outrun people and be able to run up to them and Q them, apparently I was doing it wrong.
But is using W offensively standard as Swain and the reason why he can bully? I usually felt safer holding on it.
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On February 06 2013 16:06 Alaric wrote:
I was used to running AD/armour/MR and either AD, MR or MS quints depending on the match-up, starting flask+pot+ward and trying to win the match-up by QEing my lane opponent whenever the occasion arose then following up with as many autos as possible, esp. levels 1-3.
Was having mixed results, and low kill potential since I also run Barrier over Ignite.
Tried to run MPen/armour/MR/AP against an Ahri, same start and summoners, except whenever she'd come close to me I'd try to hit a W, walk up to her and follow it with EQ autos, instead of holding on W to protect myself or if I see kill potential after tagging them with Q.
I don't know if it's the playstyle change, or the runes, but it seemed to inflict a lot more damage on every trade (despite Ahri coming in lane with 48 MR), no matter how many autos I usually land.
I relied on MS quints/21 util a lot to outrun people and be able to run up to them and Q them, apparently I was doing it wrong.
But is using W offensively standard as Swain and the reason why he can bully? I usually felt safer holding on it.
I save W for defensive use 90% of the time, with the rest being fishing for a kill.
Mpen quints are generally better unless you really want the help last hitting.
Ignite > Barrier imo, even though barrier gives you sikk bait opportunities.
and yes, EQ whenever you can and follow up with autos up to the creep line.
You don't need MS quints to run up and Q them, just walk towards them and make them back off.
I run mpen, health/level, flat cdr, AP for runes.
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I'm not sure I understand the point of the CDR blues. Wouldn't MR be a better choice if you wanted to trade often, or AP(/lvl) if you wanted to make the good opportunities even more punishing?
Personally I use W on every cannon creep attempt. It's often a free W early because nobody wants to give up a cannon minion, and using a spell on a lot of champs is a bit expensive.
IMO it's a good idea to throw one out every now and then if you are against a lane that can't punish you for using it if you know where the enemy jungler is. I like doing this because once you get ahead, swain naturally tends to stay ahead because often times, even blowing a lot of stuff, jungler+mid won't kill you if summoners are up post roa because of the healing from ultimate+kiting from Q/W
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On February 06 2013 17:46 Amui wrote:
I'm not sure I understand the point of the CDR blues. Wouldn't MR be a better choice if you wanted to trade often, or AP(/lvl) if you wanted to make the good opportunities even more punishing?
Personally I use W on every cannon creep attempt. It's often a free W early because nobody wants to give up a cannon minion, and using a spell on a lot of champs is a bit expensive.
IMO it's a good idea to throw one out every now and then if you are against a lane that can't punish you for using it if you know where the enemy jungler is. I like doing this because once you get ahead, swain naturally tends to stay ahead because often times, even blowing a lot of stuff, jungler+mid won't kill you if summoners are up post roa because of the healing from ultimate+kiting from Q/W
Meh i dont like CDR myself. Id usually just go ap/l unless you know youre gonna have a hard time, in which case id get MR tbh.
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Scaling ap seems like a bad idea to me because he needs to be tanky to do damage.
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On February 17 2013 18:35 Sufficiency wrote:
Scaling ap seems like a bad idea to me because he needs to be tanky to do damage.
And he needs ap to do damage, thats why most of his best items are mixes of ap/tanky stats(RoA/aby/zhonyas) with the exception of visage, which while giving no ap, helps him stay alive alot longer in teamfights.
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On February 17 2013 18:35 Sufficiency wrote:
Scaling ap seems like a bad idea to me because he needs to be tanky to do damage.
In a lot of lanes you don't need MR blues pre-6 and by level 6 the extra AP will probably keep you alive better than MR glyphs.
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Flat CDR I just run cos it happens to be on the runepage with all the other stuff I mentioned, also I really like hitting cdr cap fast.
Now that SV gives 20% though I think I'll swap them out.
MR, AP/lvl are probably top two choices followed by flat CDR then mana regen.
Also that 6% cdr means W is up a full second faster with level 1 W; that can be a game-changer.
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So after some theory crafting and browsing through the lol wiki, I've been wondering about Muramana+Seraph's on Swain. Anyone tried these on him recently?
I'm especially wondering on Muramana. I feel the amplified damage from torment could really help his increased AD from it, allowing him to do some more damage inbetween the cooldowns.
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On March 26 2013 01:16 Cloud9157 wrote:
So after some theory crafting and browsing through the lol wiki, I've been wondering about Muramana+Seraph's on Swain. Anyone tried these on him recently?
I'm especially wondering on Muramana. I feel the amplified damage from torment could really help his increased AD from it, allowing him to do some more damage inbetween the cooldowns.
If your planning on get both you might as well be playing Ryze.
Other then that, they both don't give any/much tankiness, while would result in a pretty squishy swain.
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muramana sucks on swain, buying it purely for autoattacks is straight up bad. Swain has nothing that procs muramana other than autos, and when he can already convert mana into damage, it's almost completely pointless
seraph's is okay in a lane where you can delay damage and get both tear and roa. You get a fat shield, and when coupled with hourglass basically prevents you from ever getting bursted, and you get an absolutely sick amount of AP once it charges.
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On March 26 2013 01:16 Cloud9157 wrote:
So after some theory crafting and browsing through the lol wiki, I've been wondering about Muramana+Seraph's on Swain. Anyone tried these on him recently?
I'm especially wondering on Muramana. I feel the amplified damage from torment could really help his increased AD from it, allowing him to do some more damage inbetween the cooldowns.
Swain's my Main, and I still haven't found anything better than RoA/Rabbys.
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While the combination of Muramana and Seraph's looks nice, and Torment will amplify the Muramana damage, you're looking at very little survivability in your first 6k gold. Even my rather glass cannon Swain still gets Kindlegem -> Spirit Visage fairly early.
If you were playing NO RUSH 20 MINS, maybe, you could get your items early and safely, but even then I think Swain will carry much harder with RoA/Dcap or Tear/SV/Zhonya's.
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On March 26 2013 01:56 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 01:16 Cloud9157 wrote:
So after some theory crafting and browsing through the lol wiki, I've been wondering about Muramana+Seraph's on Swain. Anyone tried these on him recently?
I'm especially wondering on Muramana. I feel the amplified damage from torment could really help his increased AD from it, allowing him to do some more damage inbetween the cooldowns. Swain's my Main, and I still haven't found anything better than RoA/Rabbys.
Would much rather have RoA/SV or HG than Hat tbh.
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On March 26 2013 01:56 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 01:16 Cloud9157 wrote:
So after some theory crafting and browsing through the lol wiki, I've been wondering about Muramana+Seraph's on Swain. Anyone tried these on him recently?
I'm especially wondering on Muramana. I feel the amplified damage from torment could really help his increased AD from it, allowing him to do some more damage inbetween the cooldowns. Swain's my Main, and I still haven't found anything better than RoA/Rabbys.
Have you ever considered double doran's instead of rushing ROA? I feel like double doran's really allows you to be more aggressive in lane as opposed to getting catalyst first, especially with the extra AP and mana regen.
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On March 27 2013 04:13 RJGooner wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 01:56 Crownlol wrote:On March 26 2013 01:16 Cloud9157 wrote:
So after some theory crafting and browsing through the lol wiki, I've been wondering about Muramana+Seraph's on Swain. Anyone tried these on him recently?
I'm especially wondering on Muramana. I feel the amplified damage from torment could really help his increased AD from it, allowing him to do some more damage inbetween the cooldowns. Swain's my Main, and I still haven't found anything better than RoA/Rabbys. Have you ever considered double doran's instead of rushing ROA? I feel like double doran's really allows you to be more aggressive in lane as opposed to getting catalyst first, especially with the extra AP and mana regen.
catalyst isn't bad because swain can convert mana into damage provided you can stay in range. If you're really dominating lane though, I'd personally go ruby+blasting rod(if I have enough), and just rely on comboing the other guy.
I almost always go (tear+)RoA+sorcs->abyssal+hourglass though, changing up order depending on enemy team. I think swain should be played as an offtank (not diving, but you want to make yourself a target over botlane, and possibly top/jungle depending on what they are playing), so my itemization reflects that.
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I don't like opening Doran's because Swain is super gankable early and needs some ward coverage against any moderately strong ganker. If you're safe from early ganks it does help you bully your lane, but unless I need that edge to bully my opponent I'd rather get a fast catalyst or tear. Once you have catalyst you can be extremely aggressive in lane, thanks to the extra hp pool.
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On March 27 2013 05:24 Tooplark wrote:
I don't like opening Doran's because Swain is super gankable early and needs some ward coverage against any moderately strong ganker. If you're safe from early ganks it does help you bully your lane, but unless I need that edge to bully my opponent I'd rather get a fast catalyst or tear. Once you have catalyst you can be extremely aggressive in lane, thanks to the extra hp pool.
I wasn't necessarily talking about opening Doran's, rather, getting that instead of a catalyst. I usually open with flask, a pot, and a ward.
While I agree that Catalyst allows you to be extremely aggressive, for 250 less gold you're sacrificing 40 health, the passive, and the mana pool while getting 30 more AP. Additionally, I don't necessarily see the loss of that mana pool as the worst thing because you get the slight mana regen and then the return-mana passive from Doran's, which means at lvl 6 you're restoring 25 mana per unit kill. I feel like this allows you to be a lot more bursty compared to Catalyst while still maintaining relatively the same tankiness (less health but more regen on your ult due to extra AP) and alleviating Swain's mana issues.
Just my two cents.
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On March 27 2013 06:56 RJGooner wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 05:24 Tooplark wrote:
I don't like opening Doran's because Swain is super gankable early and needs some ward coverage against any moderately strong ganker. If you're safe from early ganks it does help you bully your lane, but unless I need that edge to bully my opponent I'd rather get a fast catalyst or tear. Once you have catalyst you can be extremely aggressive in lane, thanks to the extra hp pool. I wasn't necessarily talking about opening Doran's, rather, getting that instead of a catalyst. I usually open with flask, a pot, and a ward. While I agree that Catalyst allows you to be extremely aggressive, for 250 less gold you're sacrificing 40 health, the passive, and the mana pool while getting 30 more AP. Additionally, I don't necessarily see the loss of that mana pool as the worst thing because you get the slight mana regen and then the return-mana passive from Doran's, which means at lvl 6 you're restoring 25 mana per unit kill. I feel like this allows you to be a lot more bursty compared to Catalyst while still maintaining relatively the same tankiness (less health but more regen on your ult due to extra AP) and alleviating Swain's mana issues. Just my two cents.
The problem is late game 2 dorans is going to be so incredibly trash in comparison to Catalyst it's not gonna be funny.
Theres literally ZERO, situations i would take 2 dorans ver Cata/Tear
ever.
Swain doesnt need the extra mana per last hit, he needs the big mana pool. The longer you can stay in Birdform and CAWCAWCAW the better, and you need a big mana pool to sustain its ever growing cost as you use it.
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On March 27 2013 11:28 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 06:56 RJGooner wrote:On March 27 2013 05:24 Tooplark wrote:
I don't like opening Doran's because Swain is super gankable early and needs some ward coverage against any moderately strong ganker. If you're safe from early ganks it does help you bully your lane, but unless I need that edge to bully my opponent I'd rather get a fast catalyst or tear. Once you have catalyst you can be extremely aggressive in lane, thanks to the extra hp pool. I wasn't necessarily talking about opening Doran's, rather, getting that instead of a catalyst. I usually open with flask, a pot, and a ward. While I agree that Catalyst allows you to be extremely aggressive, for 250 less gold you're sacrificing 40 health, the passive, and the mana pool while getting 30 more AP. Additionally, I don't necessarily see the loss of that mana pool as the worst thing because you get the slight mana regen and then the return-mana passive from Doran's, which means at lvl 6 you're restoring 25 mana per unit kill. I feel like this allows you to be a lot more bursty compared to Catalyst while still maintaining relatively the same tankiness (less health but more regen on your ult due to extra AP) and alleviating Swain's mana issues. Just my two cents. The problem is late game 2 dorans is going to be so incredibly trash in comparison to Catalyst it's not gonna be funny. Theres literally ZERO, situations i would take 2 dorans ver Cata/Tear ever. Swain doesnt need the extra mana per last hit, he needs the big mana pool. The longer you can stay in Birdform and CAWCAWCAW the better, and you need a big mana pool to sustain its ever growing cost as you use it.
Definitely valid points, but again, I feel like you're so much weaker in the catalyst phase compared to double dorans. This is especially exacerbated if you go tear/catalyst. Where is your damage coming from in the phase of the game when you have these two items? While I agree that it might be a better choice late-game, as long as you get blue-buff you should still be able to be effective in team fights. If you don't foresee getting blue-buffs later on then it might be a good choice to go ROA because of the mana pool.
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Swain is op.
There, I contributed.
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On March 27 2013 13:00 RJGooner wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 11:28 arb wrote:On March 27 2013 06:56 RJGooner wrote:On March 27 2013 05:24 Tooplark wrote:
I don't like opening Doran's because Swain is super gankable early and needs some ward coverage against any moderately strong ganker. If you're safe from early ganks it does help you bully your lane, but unless I need that edge to bully my opponent I'd rather get a fast catalyst or tear. Once you have catalyst you can be extremely aggressive in lane, thanks to the extra hp pool. I wasn't necessarily talking about opening Doran's, rather, getting that instead of a catalyst. I usually open with flask, a pot, and a ward. While I agree that Catalyst allows you to be extremely aggressive, for 250 less gold you're sacrificing 40 health, the passive, and the mana pool while getting 30 more AP. Additionally, I don't necessarily see the loss of that mana pool as the worst thing because you get the slight mana regen and then the return-mana passive from Doran's, which means at lvl 6 you're restoring 25 mana per unit kill. I feel like this allows you to be a lot more bursty compared to Catalyst while still maintaining relatively the same tankiness (less health but more regen on your ult due to extra AP) and alleviating Swain's mana issues. Just my two cents. The problem is late game 2 dorans is going to be so incredibly trash in comparison to Catalyst it's not gonna be funny. Theres literally ZERO, situations i would take 2 dorans ver Cata/Tear ever. Swain doesnt need the extra mana per last hit, he needs the big mana pool. The longer you can stay in Birdform and CAWCAWCAW the better, and you need a big mana pool to sustain its ever growing cost as you use it. Definitely valid points, but again, I feel like you're so much weaker in the catalyst phase compared to double dorans. This is especially exacerbated if you go tear/catalyst. Where is your damage coming from in the phase of the game when you have these two items? While I agree that it might be a better choice late-game, as long as you get blue-buff you should still be able to be effective in team fights. If you don't foresee getting blue-buffs later on then it might be a good choice to go ROA because of the mana pool.
His spells have pretty good base damage, which is boosted by E(which also boosts itself)
Lategame blue buff isnt going to sustain your ult forever anyways, bigger mana pool is absolutely key when playing swain, more so than regen. The only regen item i would recommend would be Athenes, and even then its for the K/A passive giving you 12% of your mana back(even tho the other stats are nice)
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On March 27 2013 13:00 RJGooner wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 11:28 arb wrote:On March 27 2013 06:56 RJGooner wrote:On March 27 2013 05:24 Tooplark wrote:
I don't like opening Doran's because Swain is super gankable early and needs some ward coverage against any moderately strong ganker. If you're safe from early ganks it does help you bully your lane, but unless I need that edge to bully my opponent I'd rather get a fast catalyst or tear. Once you have catalyst you can be extremely aggressive in lane, thanks to the extra hp pool. I wasn't necessarily talking about opening Doran's, rather, getting that instead of a catalyst. I usually open with flask, a pot, and a ward. While I agree that Catalyst allows you to be extremely aggressive, for 250 less gold you're sacrificing 40 health, the passive, and the mana pool while getting 30 more AP. Additionally, I don't necessarily see the loss of that mana pool as the worst thing because you get the slight mana regen and then the return-mana passive from Doran's, which means at lvl 6 you're restoring 25 mana per unit kill. I feel like this allows you to be a lot more bursty compared to Catalyst while still maintaining relatively the same tankiness (less health but more regen on your ult due to extra AP) and alleviating Swain's mana issues. Just my two cents. The problem is late game 2 dorans is going to be so incredibly trash in comparison to Catalyst it's not gonna be funny. Theres literally ZERO, situations i would take 2 dorans ver Cata/Tear ever. Swain doesnt need the extra mana per last hit, he needs the big mana pool. The longer you can stay in Birdform and CAWCAWCAW the better, and you need a big mana pool to sustain its ever growing cost as you use it. Definitely valid points, but again, I feel like you're so much weaker in the catalyst phase compared to double dorans. This is especially exacerbated if you go tear/catalyst. Where is your damage coming from in the phase of the game when you have these two items? While I agree that it might be a better choice late-game, as long as you get blue-buff you should still be able to be effective in team fights. If you don't foresee getting blue-buffs later on then it might be a good choice to go ROA because of the mana pool.
You go tear cata against lanes where you have no kill potential alone. What are you going to do against anivia if she makes it to level 6 without getting behind.
Doran's is trash on swain because the regen passive is worth a whole lot less than on other champs. At level 6 it's 1/3 more mana on lasthit. Swain doesn't have mana issues when only last hitting already, and when he does, it's because he's also trying to kill the other guy, and toggles ult on+uses other skills. It's the exact same principle as anivia&kassadin, when you can essentially convert mana into damage, why bother building regen, when you could just have a larger pool. You use mana at a rate that far exceeds any reasonable form of regen.
And then when you try to kill people in fights. Assuming you can either have boots+semi charged roa or 2 dorans+cata+boots+blasting rod at ~15 minutes. The doran's essentially do nothing. 30 more AP is made up for in the RoA, you're more tanky, and will continue to be more so as RoA charges.
Swain is a midgame teamfight monster, and you should build towards dominating that. He's strong in lane, but that's because of his free mana, not because of his scaling. IMO he's strongest at the 1-3 item timing, ~10-30-40 minutes.
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On March 27 2013 13:00 RJGooner wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 11:28 arb wrote:On March 27 2013 06:56 RJGooner wrote:On March 27 2013 05:24 Tooplark wrote:
I don't like opening Doran's because Swain is super gankable early and needs some ward coverage against any moderately strong ganker. If you're safe from early ganks it does help you bully your lane, but unless I need that edge to bully my opponent I'd rather get a fast catalyst or tear. Once you have catalyst you can be extremely aggressive in lane, thanks to the extra hp pool. I wasn't necessarily talking about opening Doran's, rather, getting that instead of a catalyst. I usually open with flask, a pot, and a ward. While I agree that Catalyst allows you to be extremely aggressive, for 250 less gold you're sacrificing 40 health, the passive, and the mana pool while getting 30 more AP. Additionally, I don't necessarily see the loss of that mana pool as the worst thing because you get the slight mana regen and then the return-mana passive from Doran's, which means at lvl 6 you're restoring 25 mana per unit kill. I feel like this allows you to be a lot more bursty compared to Catalyst while still maintaining relatively the same tankiness (less health but more regen on your ult due to extra AP) and alleviating Swain's mana issues. Just my two cents. The problem is late game 2 dorans is going to be so incredibly trash in comparison to Catalyst it's not gonna be funny. Theres literally ZERO, situations i would take 2 dorans ver Cata/Tear ever. Swain doesnt need the extra mana per last hit, he needs the big mana pool. The longer you can stay in Birdform and CAWCAWCAW the better, and you need a big mana pool to sustain its ever growing cost as you use it. Definitely valid points, but again, I feel like you're so much weaker in the catalyst phase compared to double dorans. This is especially exacerbated if you go tear/catalyst. Where is your damage coming from in the phase of the game when you have these two items? While I agree that it might be a better choice late-game, as long as you get blue-buff you should still be able to be effective in team fights. If you don't foresee getting blue-buffs later on then it might be a good choice to go ROA because of the mana pool.
Swain doesn't need a lot of ap to do silly damage. If you have around 50 ap for laning, your damage is fine. Single-target damage op.
If you want, go mask first. You get damage+tanky, but have to deal with no mana regen.
Honestly, I hate going rings now. Tear/cata/chalice are just better choices imo, and they build into stuff.
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On March 27 2013 04:13 RJGooner wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 01:56 Crownlol wrote:On March 26 2013 01:16 Cloud9157 wrote:
So after some theory crafting and browsing through the lol wiki, I've been wondering about Muramana+Seraph's on Swain. Anyone tried these on him recently?
I'm especially wondering on Muramana. I feel the amplified damage from torment could really help his increased AD from it, allowing him to do some more damage inbetween the cooldowns. Swain's my Main, and I still haven't found anything better than RoA/Rabbys. Have you ever considered double doran's instead of rushing ROA? I feel like double doran's really allows you to be more aggressive in lane as opposed to getting catalyst first, especially with the extra AP and mana regen.
I haaaaate double Dorans. I've tried it, but rushing Catalyst is just the smart move. I actually open Blue crystal + 2pots most of the time so that I can get Catalyst even faster. Buying Catalyst is usually my "now I roam" moment, unless I can also get the Blasting Wand. One of the things I hate about Dorans is that they don't build into anything, and Swain is a very snowbally champion. The Doran's mess up your power curve. I want to do anything I can to get RoA + Rabby/Zhonya as quick as possible. Because your whole jam is doing big single target damage while being tanky, you really need those fat chunks of AP and HP as quick as possible.
As a note, it's amazing in lane when you have Catalyst and your opponent has just pots.
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On March 27 2013 23:27 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 04:13 RJGooner wrote:On March 26 2013 01:56 Crownlol wrote:On March 26 2013 01:16 Cloud9157 wrote:
So after some theory crafting and browsing through the lol wiki, I've been wondering about Muramana+Seraph's on Swain. Anyone tried these on him recently?
I'm especially wondering on Muramana. I feel the amplified damage from torment could really help his increased AD from it, allowing him to do some more damage inbetween the cooldowns. Swain's my Main, and I still haven't found anything better than RoA/Rabbys. Have you ever considered double doran's instead of rushing ROA? I feel like double doran's really allows you to be more aggressive in lane as opposed to getting catalyst first, especially with the extra AP and mana regen. I haaaaate double Dorans. I've tried it, but rushing Catalyst is just the smart move. I actually open Blue crystal + 2pots most of the time so that I can get Catalyst even faster. Buying Catalyst is usually my "now I roam" moment, unless I can also get the Blasting Wand. One of the things I hate about Dorans is that they don't build into anything, and Swain is a very snowbally champion. The Doran's mess up your power curve. I want to do anything I can to get RoA + Rabby/Zhonya as quick as possible. Because your whole jam is doing big single target damage while being tanky, you really need those fat chunks of AP and HP as quick as possible. As a note, it's amazing in lane when you have Catalyst and your opponent has just pots.
The real problem with Dorans is the fact they give no mana, which is a stat Swain scales extreme well off of.
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anyone try hybrid pen reds on him?
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On April 09 2013 08:48 ReachTheSky wrote:
anyone try hybrid pen reds on him?
why would you?
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You get quite a few autoattacks anytime you land root and the E increases AA damage. It will most definitely increase your damage early game.
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Hybrid pen + E first + fort pot = hilarious cheese potential in lane.
But you don't really need hybrid pen to be a huge lane bully and missing out on the midgame 30 mpen mark is pretty painful.
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On April 09 2013 12:43 xes wrote:
Hybrid pen + E first + fort pot = hilarious cheese potential in lane.
But you don't really need hybrid pen to be a huge lane bully and missing out on the midgame 30 mpen mark is pretty painful.
That's true, but you only lose 2 mpen and win 8 armpen.
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The Zhonyas build path change makes Seeker's Armguard a rather solid pick in several lanes, specifically ones where you're up against a very aggressive physical champ. I was actually quite surprised. I went from straight up losing trades against a Wukong to coming out solidly ahead. The lack of mana wasn't really an issue, because we were almost killing each other every time we saw each other anyways, so we had to go back every minute or so. The lane advantage it gave me was significant enough that I was able to safely pick up a Tear.
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:>
User was warned for this post
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^is dog is just like swain is bird
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On April 09 2013 12:43 xes wrote:
Hybrid pen + E first + fort pot = hilarious cheese potential in lane.
But you don't really need hybrid pen to be a huge lane bully and missing out on the midgame 30 mpen mark is pretty painful.
You don't reach the 30 mpen mark anymore anyway (sorcs are only 15 MPen) and you really need 42 MPen to fully penetrate the base MR of anyone running MR runes (not even including the low tier defense mastery)
You're not really sacrificing much MPen by going hybrid pen.
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I'm having so much trouble making harveybirdman work in season 3. Usually I get forced mid and everyone who mids just shoves wave and roams to make plays. Sometimes I just follow them and it's fine, I miss some cs but we make up for it with kills. Other times they just end up making me waste time and lose cs though.
It's usually no big deal because if the game goes long enough Swain is just as scary as ever but people close out games a lot quicker this season and every mid laner is either some super safe douche who insta-clears or an assassin who just roams and kills my laners.
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Belgium9947 Posts
On March 27 2013 23:27 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 04:13 RJGooner wrote:On March 26 2013 01:56 Crownlol wrote:On March 26 2013 01:16 Cloud9157 wrote:
So after some theory crafting and browsing through the lol wiki, I've been wondering about Muramana+Seraph's on Swain. Anyone tried these on him recently?
I'm especially wondering on Muramana. I feel the amplified damage from torment could really help his increased AD from it, allowing him to do some more damage inbetween the cooldowns. Swain's my Main, and I still haven't found anything better than RoA/Rabbys. Have you ever considered double doran's instead of rushing ROA? I feel like double doran's really allows you to be more aggressive in lane as opposed to getting catalyst first, especially with the extra AP and mana regen. I haaaaate double Dorans. I've tried it, but rushing Catalyst is just the smart move. I actually open Blue crystal + 2pots most of the time so that I can get Catalyst even faster. Buying Catalyst is usually my "now I roam" moment, unless I can also get the Blasting Wand. One of the things I hate about Dorans is that they don't build into anything, and Swain is a very snowbally champion. The Doran's mess up your power curve. I want to do anything I can to get RoA + Rabby/Zhonya as quick as possible. Because your whole jam is doing big single target damage while being tanky, you really need those fat chunks of AP and HP as quick as possible. As a note, it's amazing in lane when you have Catalyst and your opponent has just pots.
Although I understand rushing catalyst, I don't like opening blue crystal + 2 pots. The blue crystal just doesn't help you that much in lane early, and his early laning is really strong and should be abused.
Boots + 3 pots offers more damage (getting in 2 or 3 more autoattacks can make a big difference in an early swain combo), more sustain and more survivability. If you're really keen on rushing catalyst it's the better option it's the better option imo, despite all the hate bootstarts are getting now
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Tear->Guise->whatever you need is really strong. I realize a non-cata build is almost heresy when talking about Swain but Tear/seraph is way more valuable the longer the game goes on than cata/RoA. Guise gives you the same health as cata and a stronger mid game imo (it also lets you go mercs much easier without feeling bad). Liandry's is really strong after you get a Zhonya's or Abyssal. If you're going tear it allows a faerie charm + pots and wards opening which is really solid in both top and mid lane.
Maybe I'm just noob but I really like Tear+Guise as opposed to going cata->RoA in S3 Swain.
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i go RoA->tear but tear->guise seems like a really good idea.
I mean, the only downside is the catalyst passive but you get mpen and ap in the time you get cata and blasting wand.
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I've been playing Swain a lot lately but i get a lot of trouble last hitting under tower - I can't finish a melee creep after it gets hit by the tower twice. Also wondering if people have trouble with cassio and syndra, since their spells out range me, I find it hard to force a trade and just end up trying to dodge skill shots while pushed to tower. I'm at the Silver I level so that's kind of the opponent's i'm facing.
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Swain's pre6 laning has always been weak against champs that can push the lane easily, so getting bullied back to your tower is a part of playing Swain. It's useful to take the +dmg to minions and flat ad masteries because of this. Also, I'm not convinced at all of building tear -> seraph over chalice -> grail unless you're laning against an AD champ and the enemy team doesn't have any heavy AP damage.
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Tear gives better mana sustain.
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On May 20 2013 01:10 koreasilver wrote:
Swain's pre6 laning has always been weak against champs that can push the lane easily, so getting bullied back to your tower is a part of playing Swain. It's useful to take the +dmg to minions and flat ad masteries because of this. Also, I'm not convinced at all of building tear -> seraph over chalice -> grail unless you're laning against an AD champ and the enemy team doesn't have any heavy AP damage.
Swain needs a large mana pool more than mp5, the saving grace of Grail in teamfights is in its on-kill/assist passive, other than that it'd help in lane but you'd still get oom during teamfights.
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I know that Swain needs a large mana pool; I've played him for a long time now which is why I've been pretty dogmatic about ROA on Swain any time we talk about Swain. But Swain doesn't stack tear that fast in comparison to most other champions that build tear as a core item, and as a laning item chalice >>>>>>>>>>>> tear so fucking hard unless you're against an AD champ. It allows you to push the lane, trade much more freely, and consequently gives you more opportunity to roam (and roam with more mana). I don't really see the sense in seraph either since using its active chunks into your mana pool pretty hard. Zhonya is one of your core items while grail will give you more mana in repeated skirmishes and tower seiges than tear, and even in teamfights it'll give more mana due to its kill/assist passive. I'd be more convinced of tear if Swain actually charged it quickly but he doesn't. And as a champion that isn't very conductive to making sweeping comebacks after being behind, I don't see any reason to take tear over chalice unless the only AP damage from the enemy team is coming from their support.
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Swain's actually pretty good at just sitting in lane and farming for 20 minutes and then wrecking face. You just have to adapt your build. Tear is an item I get when either I am very ahead, or very behind. If I'm ahead I get it because it will help me more in teamfights than cata or chalice and I don't need the stronger lane power of those two items; if I'm behind I get it because the stronger lane power won't really help, so I might as well build for teamfights.
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On May 20 2013 03:39 koreasilver wrote:
I know that Swain needs a large mana pool; I've played him for a long time now which is why I've been pretty dogmatic about ROA on Swain any time we talk about Swain. But Swain doesn't stack tear that fast in comparison to most other champions that build tear as a core item.
That's true, that's why my main build was roa tear.
The tear is late but with the mana of the roa and a blue buff, you can stack the tear with your ulti and other spells.
What do you think about it?
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On May 20 2013 08:16 ArcTimes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2013 03:39 koreasilver wrote:
I know that Swain needs a large mana pool; I've played him for a long time now which is why I've been pretty dogmatic about ROA on Swain any time we talk about Swain. But Swain doesn't stack tear that fast in comparison to most other champions that build tear as a core item. That's true, that's why my main build was roa tear. The tear is late but with the mana of the roa and a blue buff, you can stack the tear with your ulti and other spells. What do you think about it?
I always go cata tear roa, tear isnt that expensive now, not sure why you say he doesnt stack it fast, cause with it proccing everytime you spend mana its alot easier to stack now imo.
RoA/Tear/Chalice(Mostly for the athenes passive later) is really the goto build on swain, with other items being totally situational
On May 20 2013 00:11 Trainninja wrote:
I've been playing Swain a lot lately but i get a lot of trouble last hitting under tower - I can't finish a melee creep after it gets hit by the tower twice. Also wondering if people have trouble with cassio and syndra, since their spells out range me, I find it hard to force a trade and just end up trying to dodge skill shots while pushed to tower. I'm at the Silver I level so that's kind of the opponent's i'm facing.
not sure about syndra, but swain vs cass(unless shes REALLY bad) is probably the worst matchup you can ever hope to get when playing him tbh
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On May 20 2013 09:35 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2013 08:16 ArcTimes wrote:On May 20 2013 03:39 koreasilver wrote:
I know that Swain needs a large mana pool; I've played him for a long time now which is why I've been pretty dogmatic about ROA on Swain any time we talk about Swain. But Swain doesn't stack tear that fast in comparison to most other champions that build tear as a core item. That's true, that's why my main build was roa tear. The tear is late but with the mana of the roa and a blue buff, you can stack the tear with your ulti and other spells. What do you think about it? I always go cata tear roa, tear isnt that expensive now, not sure why you say he doesnt stack it fast, cause with it proccing everytime you spend mana its alot easier to stack now imo. RoA/Tear/Chalice(Mostly for the athenes passive later) is really the goto build on swain, with other items being totally situational
I mean that tear before cata is not as fast as after cata because even with your passive, you should not spam your spells like crazy, at least not as soon as they are not on cd. Unless you have the blue buff, but still i just like the passive of cata and the early heal you get.
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Saw this on Xpeke's stream - he was stacking RoA on Kassadin - what do you guys think of this build on Swain?
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On May 21 2013 16:06 ArcTimes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2013 09:35 arb wrote:On May 20 2013 08:16 ArcTimes wrote:On May 20 2013 03:39 koreasilver wrote:
I know that Swain needs a large mana pool; I've played him for a long time now which is why I've been pretty dogmatic about ROA on Swain any time we talk about Swain. But Swain doesn't stack tear that fast in comparison to most other champions that build tear as a core item. That's true, that's why my main build was roa tear. The tear is late but with the mana of the roa and a blue buff, you can stack the tear with your ulti and other spells. What do you think about it? I always go cata tear roa, tear isnt that expensive now, not sure why you say he doesnt stack it fast, cause with it proccing everytime you spend mana its alot easier to stack now imo. RoA/Tear/Chalice(Mostly for the athenes passive later) is really the goto build on swain, with other items being totally situational I mean that tear before cata is not as fast as after cata because even with your passive, you should not spam your spells like crazy, at least not as soon as they are not on cd. Unless you have the blue buff, but still i just like the passive of cata and the early heal you get.
Once you have blue buff/Cata i really feel you can be pretty active keeping R on and spamming spells without alot of trouble.
Personally i've never had a problem stacking tear, and even if you dont make seraphs early you'll still have the mana for more cawcawing while you get whatever other items you need(situational obv)
On May 21 2013 23:25 Trainninja wrote:
Saw this on Xpeke's stream - he was stacking RoA on Kassadin - what do you guys think of this build on Swain?
Eh i doubt it would be good tbh, feel like youd get more use buying useful things like hourglass/spirit visage or something, and even though it gives mana/hp 1 roa + tear should really be about all you need tbh
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On May 22 2013 03:41 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 16:06 ArcTimes wrote:On May 20 2013 09:35 arb wrote:On May 20 2013 08:16 ArcTimes wrote:On May 20 2013 03:39 koreasilver wrote:
I know that Swain needs a large mana pool; I've played him for a long time now which is why I've been pretty dogmatic about ROA on Swain any time we talk about Swain. But Swain doesn't stack tear that fast in comparison to most other champions that build tear as a core item. That's true, that's why my main build was roa tear. The tear is late but with the mana of the roa and a blue buff, you can stack the tear with your ulti and other spells. What do you think about it? I always go cata tear roa, tear isnt that expensive now, not sure why you say he doesnt stack it fast, cause with it proccing everytime you spend mana its alot easier to stack now imo. RoA/Tear/Chalice(Mostly for the athenes passive later) is really the goto build on swain, with other items being totally situational I mean that tear before cata is not as fast as after cata because even with your passive, you should not spam your spells like crazy, at least not as soon as they are not on cd. Unless you have the blue buff, but still i just like the passive of cata and the early heal you get. Once you have blue buff/Cata i really feel you can be pretty active keeping R on and spamming spells without alot of trouble. Personally i've never had a problem stacking tear, and even if you dont make seraphs early you'll still have the mana for more cawcawing while you get whatever other items you need(situational obv)
That's what i'm saying, after you get cata a/o blue buff, you can spam your abilities and even toggle your R on so you can get stacks, but if you get the tear first and even without blue buff, you can't stack that as easy.
I love activating my ulti in the shop while buying.
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would swain be a decent counterpick to kass lanes? trying to find something that can handle kass fairly comfortably and i think that swain should have enough pressure to set him behind pre6 and enough innate sustain to handle him post-6
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yes swain beats on kass pretty hard
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On September 05 2013 00:50 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 23:55 57 Corvette wrote:On September 04 2013 23:50 jcarlsoniv wrote:On September 04 2013 23:39 57 Corvette wrote:
I am thinking about just playing Swain every game I can in ranked. I'm 16-5 with him so far and now that Vlad is getting really popular for some reason..
The build I have been going isn't the best, but so far Dring > Chalice/Seekers into Rylais + SV + Hourglass has been getting me through ranked games pretty easily.
RoA might be a better item, but I never really was a fan of it in general. It probably is better for HP than Rylais but I am making excuses in my head why Rylais is better that don't really make sense. Oooooh Swain, I forgot about him. What runes/masteries you running? Mpen/Armour/MR/MS for runes, I run either an offensive page or a defensive page. Have you tried 21/9/0? That's what I normally run on all of my mids.
I took a page out of Atrioc's Pantheon guide and I've been running 16/14 on Swain to take full armor/mr in the defense tree along with block so I can heavily trade with AAs.
Hpen/AR/MR/MS
I'm not sure if this is just a crutch for people who don't understand that Swain AAs just wreck you though (I'm like Silver-Gold MMR)
I also have no idea how to itemize mana pool. 2x Dring -> RoA delays the RoA a ton, and straight Catalyst out of Flask feels really underwhelming for being able to push/waveclear against Chalice first spammers.
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United States37500 Posts
Ring/Catalyst into RoA feels half decent. I have mix feelings about Flask on Swain. The fact that you're planning to build Catalyst kinda offsets what you want from Flask.
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On September 05 2013 03:48 NeoIllusions wrote:
Ring/Catalyst into RoA feels half decent. I have mix feelings about Flask on Swain. The fact that you're planning to build Catalyst kinda offsets what you want from Flash.
exactly. and thats why on kassadin i do not get flask.
swain has such ridiculous sustain after 6 when i kass vs him i can still beat him (not even that hard) but its a forced allin at lvl5 (if i force him out of lane, then get 6, then allin when hes 5) or lvl7/9. i go very risky and only 3/3 on the pots, because i know i can dodge nevermove. and to do the allin i need Q's on him from 3 onwards.
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One thing I like about starting flask is that it gives me a ward and lets me trade a bunch too, even pre-6. Granted I mostly played him top this last week or so, so warding gank is more important, but in general I feel like considering how easily Swain can snowball negatively off of a bad start, it's pretty important to make sure everything is smooth sailing.
Then again you could just say I'm using a crutch because if I was better I wouldn't need a ward to feel safe to do my thing.
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So what is the general consensus on Swain top on blue side (Where he has access to blue)? I feel like he could bully someone like Shyvana really hard (He has a slow and a snare so she can't really close on him, and he has huge sustain post 6). I know he can be extremely gankable but he feels like he could be a reasonable niche pick (Liandries on him is actually pretty good, two skills proc the double damage and his E is also an amplifier).
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Pretty much exactly what you said: a niche pick. He has some really good matchups and some really bad ones; if he gets ahead he can 1v3 but if he gets behind he takes forever to catch up.
Also, current Swain build for me is Armguard or Cowl, Tear, Zhonya's, SV, Deathcap. I'm thinking about Liandry's as a Deathcap alternative against beefy dudes.
Also, now that Torment doesn't amplify Ignite, I feel less guilty about taking Flash Ghost. I'm up in the air on Ghost vs Ignite vs maybe even Barrier. Two escapes is a happy bird.
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On December 27 2013 01:30 Tooplark wrote:
Pretty much exactly what you said: a niche pick. He has some really good matchups and some really bad ones; if he gets ahead he can 1v3 but if he gets behind he takes forever to catch up.
Also, current Swain build for me is Armguard or Cowl, Tear, Zhonya's, SV, Deathcap. I'm thinking about Liandry's as a Deathcap alternative against beefy dudes.
Also, now that Torment doesn't amplify Ignite, I feel less guilty about taking Flash Ghost. I'm up in the air on Ghost vs Ignite vs maybe even Barrier. Two escapes is a happy bird.
Personally I really think Rod is still the only real core item on Swain I cant go away from, gives you every stat you need basically.
If i even get tear its pretty situational(need to be doing even basically or maybe real ahead if im killing kids) But not going one of the two feels like suicide, going tear leaves you too squishy imo, cant expect to stay alive long without the health from RoA truthfully.
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I feel Swain should be thriving in this meta, but something is holding him back... maybe it's the mana.
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On December 28 2013 06:10 Sufficiency wrote:
I feel Swain should be thriving in this meta, but something is holding him back... maybe it's the mana.
He's tanky as good sustain + sustained damage, but the mana cost for his ult gets really obnoxious the more you use it making you stop, and when you stop you lose your sustain which is never good.
Not to mention you have to sink two slots into mana items to even be able to use your ult later, aswell as have blue buff to keep it up for a reasonable amount of time
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any thoughts on dfg swain and using your ult for burst heal as opposed to sustained? saw a few threads on reddit about it
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On December 28 2013 08:50 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2013 06:10 Sufficiency wrote:
I feel Swain should be thriving in this meta, but something is holding him back... maybe it's the mana. He's tanky as good sustain + sustained damage, but the mana cost for his ult gets really obnoxious the more you use it making you stop, and when you stop you lose your sustain which is never good. Not to mention you have to sink two slots into mana items to even be able to use your ult later, aswell as have blue buff to keep it up for a reasonable amount of time
'i find athenes to sustain his mana good enough in most cases actually
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On December 29 2013 21:42 Pulimuli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2013 08:50 arb wrote:On December 28 2013 06:10 Sufficiency wrote:
I feel Swain should be thriving in this meta, but something is holding him back... maybe it's the mana. He's tanky as good sustain + sustained damage, but the mana cost for his ult gets really obnoxious the more you use it making you stop, and when you stop you lose your sustain which is never good. Not to mention you have to sink two slots into mana items to even be able to use your ult later, aswell as have blue buff to keep it up for a reasonable amount of time 'i find athenes to sustain his mana good enough in most cases actually
Ive toyed around with something like RoA/Tear/Athenes/Hat/Hourglass(or SV) before.
I mean unless team fights are ending super fast, well even if they are actually the ever growing cost on your ult is gonna make it so the mana back from Athenes wont be enough eventually
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On December 28 2013 06:10 Sufficiency wrote:
I feel Swain should be thriving in this meta, but something is holding him back... maybe it's the mana.
Offlane, Cowl destroys him (as it does to most AP champs), while the popularity of manaless opponents is a bitch to deal with, especially when they have sustain too.
Mid, he's still escapeless and easy to push under his tower.
As the game goes on his lack of range makes it hard to reach ranged carries, and to kill huge tanks like Shyvana, Mundo, Renekton, it takes really long so your mana pool really suffers and you need the enemy team to lack a threat high enough to warrant immediate removal (hard to reach and deal with Caitlyn, Jinx, Tristana, Kog, etc. as Swain).
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EPT
