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On March 27 2013 13:00 RJGooner wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 11:28 arb wrote:On March 27 2013 06:56 RJGooner wrote:On March 27 2013 05:24 Tooplark wrote:
I don't like opening Doran's because Swain is super gankable early and needs some ward coverage against any moderately strong ganker. If you're safe from early ganks it does help you bully your lane, but unless I need that edge to bully my opponent I'd rather get a fast catalyst or tear. Once you have catalyst you can be extremely aggressive in lane, thanks to the extra hp pool. I wasn't necessarily talking about opening Doran's, rather, getting that instead of a catalyst. I usually open with flask, a pot, and a ward. While I agree that Catalyst allows you to be extremely aggressive, for 250 less gold you're sacrificing 40 health, the passive, and the mana pool while getting 30 more AP. Additionally, I don't necessarily see the loss of that mana pool as the worst thing because you get the slight mana regen and then the return-mana passive from Doran's, which means at lvl 6 you're restoring 25 mana per unit kill. I feel like this allows you to be a lot more bursty compared to Catalyst while still maintaining relatively the same tankiness (less health but more regen on your ult due to extra AP) and alleviating Swain's mana issues. Just my two cents. The problem is late game 2 dorans is going to be so incredibly trash in comparison to Catalyst it's not gonna be funny. Theres literally ZERO, situations i would take 2 dorans ver Cata/Tear ever. Swain doesnt need the extra mana per last hit, he needs the big mana pool. The longer you can stay in Birdform and CAWCAWCAW the better, and you need a big mana pool to sustain its ever growing cost as you use it. Definitely valid points, but again, I feel like you're so much weaker in the catalyst phase compared to double dorans. This is especially exacerbated if you go tear/catalyst. Where is your damage coming from in the phase of the game when you have these two items? While I agree that it might be a better choice late-game, as long as you get blue-buff you should still be able to be effective in team fights. If you don't foresee getting blue-buffs later on then it might be a good choice to go ROA because of the mana pool.
His spells have pretty good base damage, which is boosted by E(which also boosts itself)
Lategame blue buff isnt going to sustain your ult forever anyways, bigger mana pool is absolutely key when playing swain, more so than regen. The only regen item i would recommend would be Athenes, and even then its for the K/A passive giving you 12% of your mana back(even tho the other stats are nice)
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On March 27 2013 13:00 RJGooner wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 11:28 arb wrote:On March 27 2013 06:56 RJGooner wrote:On March 27 2013 05:24 Tooplark wrote:
I don't like opening Doran's because Swain is super gankable early and needs some ward coverage against any moderately strong ganker. If you're safe from early ganks it does help you bully your lane, but unless I need that edge to bully my opponent I'd rather get a fast catalyst or tear. Once you have catalyst you can be extremely aggressive in lane, thanks to the extra hp pool. I wasn't necessarily talking about opening Doran's, rather, getting that instead of a catalyst. I usually open with flask, a pot, and a ward. While I agree that Catalyst allows you to be extremely aggressive, for 250 less gold you're sacrificing 40 health, the passive, and the mana pool while getting 30 more AP. Additionally, I don't necessarily see the loss of that mana pool as the worst thing because you get the slight mana regen and then the return-mana passive from Doran's, which means at lvl 6 you're restoring 25 mana per unit kill. I feel like this allows you to be a lot more bursty compared to Catalyst while still maintaining relatively the same tankiness (less health but more regen on your ult due to extra AP) and alleviating Swain's mana issues. Just my two cents. The problem is late game 2 dorans is going to be so incredibly trash in comparison to Catalyst it's not gonna be funny. Theres literally ZERO, situations i would take 2 dorans ver Cata/Tear ever. Swain doesnt need the extra mana per last hit, he needs the big mana pool. The longer you can stay in Birdform and CAWCAWCAW the better, and you need a big mana pool to sustain its ever growing cost as you use it. Definitely valid points, but again, I feel like you're so much weaker in the catalyst phase compared to double dorans. This is especially exacerbated if you go tear/catalyst. Where is your damage coming from in the phase of the game when you have these two items? While I agree that it might be a better choice late-game, as long as you get blue-buff you should still be able to be effective in team fights. If you don't foresee getting blue-buffs later on then it might be a good choice to go ROA because of the mana pool.
You go tear cata against lanes where you have no kill potential alone. What are you going to do against anivia if she makes it to level 6 without getting behind.
Doran's is trash on swain because the regen passive is worth a whole lot less than on other champs. At level 6 it's 1/3 more mana on lasthit. Swain doesn't have mana issues when only last hitting already, and when he does, it's because he's also trying to kill the other guy, and toggles ult on+uses other skills. It's the exact same principle as anivia&kassadin, when you can essentially convert mana into damage, why bother building regen, when you could just have a larger pool. You use mana at a rate that far exceeds any reasonable form of regen.
And then when you try to kill people in fights. Assuming you can either have boots+semi charged roa or 2 dorans+cata+boots+blasting rod at ~15 minutes. The doran's essentially do nothing. 30 more AP is made up for in the RoA, you're more tanky, and will continue to be more so as RoA charges.
Swain is a midgame teamfight monster, and you should build towards dominating that. He's strong in lane, but that's because of his free mana, not because of his scaling. IMO he's strongest at the 1-3 item timing, ~10-30-40 minutes.
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On March 27 2013 13:00 RJGooner wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 11:28 arb wrote:On March 27 2013 06:56 RJGooner wrote:On March 27 2013 05:24 Tooplark wrote:
I don't like opening Doran's because Swain is super gankable early and needs some ward coverage against any moderately strong ganker. If you're safe from early ganks it does help you bully your lane, but unless I need that edge to bully my opponent I'd rather get a fast catalyst or tear. Once you have catalyst you can be extremely aggressive in lane, thanks to the extra hp pool. I wasn't necessarily talking about opening Doran's, rather, getting that instead of a catalyst. I usually open with flask, a pot, and a ward. While I agree that Catalyst allows you to be extremely aggressive, for 250 less gold you're sacrificing 40 health, the passive, and the mana pool while getting 30 more AP. Additionally, I don't necessarily see the loss of that mana pool as the worst thing because you get the slight mana regen and then the return-mana passive from Doran's, which means at lvl 6 you're restoring 25 mana per unit kill. I feel like this allows you to be a lot more bursty compared to Catalyst while still maintaining relatively the same tankiness (less health but more regen on your ult due to extra AP) and alleviating Swain's mana issues. Just my two cents. The problem is late game 2 dorans is going to be so incredibly trash in comparison to Catalyst it's not gonna be funny. Theres literally ZERO, situations i would take 2 dorans ver Cata/Tear ever. Swain doesnt need the extra mana per last hit, he needs the big mana pool. The longer you can stay in Birdform and CAWCAWCAW the better, and you need a big mana pool to sustain its ever growing cost as you use it. Definitely valid points, but again, I feel like you're so much weaker in the catalyst phase compared to double dorans. This is especially exacerbated if you go tear/catalyst. Where is your damage coming from in the phase of the game when you have these two items? While I agree that it might be a better choice late-game, as long as you get blue-buff you should still be able to be effective in team fights. If you don't foresee getting blue-buffs later on then it might be a good choice to go ROA because of the mana pool.
Swain doesn't need a lot of ap to do silly damage. If you have around 50 ap for laning, your damage is fine. Single-target damage op.
If you want, go mask first. You get damage+tanky, but have to deal with no mana regen.
Honestly, I hate going rings now. Tear/cata/chalice are just better choices imo, and they build into stuff.
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On March 27 2013 04:13 RJGooner wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 01:56 Crownlol wrote:On March 26 2013 01:16 Cloud9157 wrote:
So after some theory crafting and browsing through the lol wiki, I've been wondering about Muramana+Seraph's on Swain. Anyone tried these on him recently?
I'm especially wondering on Muramana. I feel the amplified damage from torment could really help his increased AD from it, allowing him to do some more damage inbetween the cooldowns. Swain's my Main, and I still haven't found anything better than RoA/Rabbys. Have you ever considered double doran's instead of rushing ROA? I feel like double doran's really allows you to be more aggressive in lane as opposed to getting catalyst first, especially with the extra AP and mana regen.
I haaaaate double Dorans. I've tried it, but rushing Catalyst is just the smart move. I actually open Blue crystal + 2pots most of the time so that I can get Catalyst even faster. Buying Catalyst is usually my "now I roam" moment, unless I can also get the Blasting Wand. One of the things I hate about Dorans is that they don't build into anything, and Swain is a very snowbally champion. The Doran's mess up your power curve. I want to do anything I can to get RoA + Rabby/Zhonya as quick as possible. Because your whole jam is doing big single target damage while being tanky, you really need those fat chunks of AP and HP as quick as possible.
As a note, it's amazing in lane when you have Catalyst and your opponent has just pots.
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On March 27 2013 23:27 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 04:13 RJGooner wrote:On March 26 2013 01:56 Crownlol wrote:On March 26 2013 01:16 Cloud9157 wrote:
So after some theory crafting and browsing through the lol wiki, I've been wondering about Muramana+Seraph's on Swain. Anyone tried these on him recently?
I'm especially wondering on Muramana. I feel the amplified damage from torment could really help his increased AD from it, allowing him to do some more damage inbetween the cooldowns. Swain's my Main, and I still haven't found anything better than RoA/Rabbys. Have you ever considered double doran's instead of rushing ROA? I feel like double doran's really allows you to be more aggressive in lane as opposed to getting catalyst first, especially with the extra AP and mana regen. I haaaaate double Dorans. I've tried it, but rushing Catalyst is just the smart move. I actually open Blue crystal + 2pots most of the time so that I can get Catalyst even faster. Buying Catalyst is usually my "now I roam" moment, unless I can also get the Blasting Wand. One of the things I hate about Dorans is that they don't build into anything, and Swain is a very snowbally champion. The Doran's mess up your power curve. I want to do anything I can to get RoA + Rabby/Zhonya as quick as possible. Because your whole jam is doing big single target damage while being tanky, you really need those fat chunks of AP and HP as quick as possible. As a note, it's amazing in lane when you have Catalyst and your opponent has just pots.
The real problem with Dorans is the fact they give no mana, which is a stat Swain scales extreme well off of.
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anyone try hybrid pen reds on him?
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On April 09 2013 08:48 ReachTheSky wrote:
anyone try hybrid pen reds on him?
why would you?
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You get quite a few autoattacks anytime you land root and the E increases AA damage. It will most definitely increase your damage early game.
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Hybrid pen + E first + fort pot = hilarious cheese potential in lane.
But you don't really need hybrid pen to be a huge lane bully and missing out on the midgame 30 mpen mark is pretty painful.
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On April 09 2013 12:43 xes wrote:
Hybrid pen + E first + fort pot = hilarious cheese potential in lane.
But you don't really need hybrid pen to be a huge lane bully and missing out on the midgame 30 mpen mark is pretty painful.
That's true, but you only lose 2 mpen and win 8 armpen.
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The Zhonyas build path change makes Seeker's Armguard a rather solid pick in several lanes, specifically ones where you're up against a very aggressive physical champ. I was actually quite surprised. I went from straight up losing trades against a Wukong to coming out solidly ahead. The lack of mana wasn't really an issue, because we were almost killing each other every time we saw each other anyways, so we had to go back every minute or so. The lane advantage it gave me was significant enough that I was able to safely pick up a Tear.
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:>
User was warned for this post
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^is dog is just like swain is bird
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On April 09 2013 12:43 xes wrote:
Hybrid pen + E first + fort pot = hilarious cheese potential in lane.
But you don't really need hybrid pen to be a huge lane bully and missing out on the midgame 30 mpen mark is pretty painful.
You don't reach the 30 mpen mark anymore anyway (sorcs are only 15 MPen) and you really need 42 MPen to fully penetrate the base MR of anyone running MR runes (not even including the low tier defense mastery)
You're not really sacrificing much MPen by going hybrid pen.
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I'm having so much trouble making harveybirdman work in season 3. Usually I get forced mid and everyone who mids just shoves wave and roams to make plays. Sometimes I just follow them and it's fine, I miss some cs but we make up for it with kills. Other times they just end up making me waste time and lose cs though.
It's usually no big deal because if the game goes long enough Swain is just as scary as ever but people close out games a lot quicker this season and every mid laner is either some super safe douche who insta-clears or an assassin who just roams and kills my laners.
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Belgium9947 Posts
On March 27 2013 23:27 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 04:13 RJGooner wrote:On March 26 2013 01:56 Crownlol wrote:On March 26 2013 01:16 Cloud9157 wrote:
So after some theory crafting and browsing through the lol wiki, I've been wondering about Muramana+Seraph's on Swain. Anyone tried these on him recently?
I'm especially wondering on Muramana. I feel the amplified damage from torment could really help his increased AD from it, allowing him to do some more damage inbetween the cooldowns. Swain's my Main, and I still haven't found anything better than RoA/Rabbys. Have you ever considered double doran's instead of rushing ROA? I feel like double doran's really allows you to be more aggressive in lane as opposed to getting catalyst first, especially with the extra AP and mana regen. I haaaaate double Dorans. I've tried it, but rushing Catalyst is just the smart move. I actually open Blue crystal + 2pots most of the time so that I can get Catalyst even faster. Buying Catalyst is usually my "now I roam" moment, unless I can also get the Blasting Wand. One of the things I hate about Dorans is that they don't build into anything, and Swain is a very snowbally champion. The Doran's mess up your power curve. I want to do anything I can to get RoA + Rabby/Zhonya as quick as possible. Because your whole jam is doing big single target damage while being tanky, you really need those fat chunks of AP and HP as quick as possible. As a note, it's amazing in lane when you have Catalyst and your opponent has just pots.
Although I understand rushing catalyst, I don't like opening blue crystal + 2 pots. The blue crystal just doesn't help you that much in lane early, and his early laning is really strong and should be abused.
Boots + 3 pots offers more damage (getting in 2 or 3 more autoattacks can make a big difference in an early swain combo), more sustain and more survivability. If you're really keen on rushing catalyst it's the better option it's the better option imo, despite all the hate bootstarts are getting now
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Tear->Guise->whatever you need is really strong. I realize a non-cata build is almost heresy when talking about Swain but Tear/seraph is way more valuable the longer the game goes on than cata/RoA. Guise gives you the same health as cata and a stronger mid game imo (it also lets you go mercs much easier without feeling bad). Liandry's is really strong after you get a Zhonya's or Abyssal. If you're going tear it allows a faerie charm + pots and wards opening which is really solid in both top and mid lane.
Maybe I'm just noob but I really like Tear+Guise as opposed to going cata->RoA in S3 Swain.
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i go RoA->tear but tear->guise seems like a really good idea.
I mean, the only downside is the catalyst passive but you get mpen and ap in the time you get cata and blasting wand.
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I've been playing Swain a lot lately but i get a lot of trouble last hitting under tower - I can't finish a melee creep after it gets hit by the tower twice. Also wondering if people have trouble with cassio and syndra, since their spells out range me, I find it hard to force a trade and just end up trying to dodge skill shots while pushed to tower. I'm at the Silver I level so that's kind of the opponent's i'm facing.
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Swain's pre6 laning has always been weak against champs that can push the lane easily, so getting bullied back to your tower is a part of playing Swain. It's useful to take the +dmg to minions and flat ad masteries because of this. Also, I'm not convinced at all of building tear -> seraph over chalice -> grail unless you're laning against an AD champ and the enemy team doesn't have any heavy AP damage.
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EPT
