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On December 21 2012 04:16 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
Is this build still ok? Is Liandry's a good choice now that we are in season 3?
You still need Rod since you need health to not die instantly so it should still be core. Usually now i'll go Tear+Cata -> RoA. Then build situational after that. Not sure if you need Chalice/Athenes since new Tear is so good.
Liandrys i think is okay too, its going to give you an extra dot which i think is amplified by E, and since swain is more of a sustained dps than a burst caster its not too bad imo.
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what skill u max 1st/2nd for swain and what items do u build 1st?
I always get ROA > WOTA > abyssal not sure if i am on the right track.
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Don't build spell vamp on swain.
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The thing about Swain is he benefits from almost every stat quite a bit. Everything tanky or castery is good. The challenge is prioritizing it well.
The three main things Swain needs are:
1) Enough mana to comfortably stay in ult
2) Enough hp/resists to live in the middle of their team
3) Enough AP to actually do damage
Spellvamp is hard to itemize on Swain because the only items that give spellvamp don't give enough health or mana to make them priority builds. Also, his healing is better served by buying more AP and resists.
Rod is good because it gives a rounded, cost-efficient selection of stats and has a very nice build path.
Spirit Visage is good because it gives a LOT of (2
Tear is good because it gives a LOT of (1 for a low price
Zhonya's is good because it gives a nice combination of (2 via the active and (3
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I tried building Liandry's after RoA + Tear and it felt pretty good. Killing almost 1/3 of someone's health with a single rank 1 Q is kind of fun (and broken).
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Any tips on runes/masteries? Also, is he still viable top? (I remember he used to be a counterpick for some popular champs a few months ago in s3 when meta dictated almost exclusively bruisers there)
I've been wanting to try him for a long LONG time, even have some IP saved up ATM, but I generally dislike champs which can go exclusively in one lane, esp. if it's mid
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you can run him top but don't expect pubbers to be happy about it. He's very strong against people who don't know how to deal with him and very frustrating to lane against even if you do, his weakness is that he can't safely pressure or push that well until he gets a big item and level 9, even then if you want to push hard you need to use your CC to do it which is risky as hell against a competent bruiser player.
All things that can be dealt with, but don't expect to poop on teams easily in your first few games until you get a feel for leveling and controling the lane over time with skill choices and builds.
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On December 28 2012 07:58 Plague1503 wrote:
Any tips on runes/masteries? Also, is he still viable top? (I remember he used to be a counterpick for some popular champs a few months ago in s3 when meta dictated almost exclusively bruisers there)
I've been wanting to try him for a long LONG time, even have some IP saved up ATM, but I generally dislike champs which can go exclusively in one lane, esp. if it's mid
He's alot harder to play top, and against someone who can gapclose onto you and avoid your snare and slow from Q its kinda risky.
I run one of the two runepages shown in the OP personally.
either MS/AP quints is really the only difference. I like HP/L yellows too though.
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On December 21 2012 12:00 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 04:16 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
Is this build still ok? Is Liandry's a good choice now that we are in season 3? You still need Rod since you need health to not die instantly so it should still be core. Usually now i'll go Tear+Cata -> RoA. Then build situational after that. Not sure if you need Chalice/Athenes since new Tear is so good. Liandrys i think is okay too, its going to give you an extra dot which i think is amplified by E, and since swain is more of a sustained dps than a burst caster its not too bad imo.
What's the argument for tear? RoA+Tear just feels like way too much mana and after experimenting with skipping RoA, Catalyst is just too good to skip.
If you need more mana sustain because the teamfights are more drawn out (league of bruisers) then I would rather get Athene's, despite the nerfs. It doesn't break even with tear for mana until the 3rd proc, but the 15% CDR is still enormous in giving more flexibility in resetting ult in a teamfight and helping kite with q and w, which is why you would need more ult time sustain anyways.
Also, Tyrant Swain on sale this week l0l
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Because Tear is 700 gold. You could get that 15% cdr from all number of sources, such as Spirit Visage (more health, healing and MR), Glacial Shroud (more armor and mana, cheaper). Obviously, you aren't getting the AP or mana regen from Athene's, or the mana-restore-on-assist, but the flexibility that Tear allows is nice in many situations.
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I think with Tear you can build it into Archangel's and it serves as a damage item for Swain. At level 18 and max Tear + RoA, you get ~2800 mana - that gives you an extra 84 AP. The item itself gives 60 AP, so you get 144 AP from it, which seems pretty good to me considering its defensive uses and the huge amount of mana (allowing you to maintain your ult a few seconds longer).
Then again I have a bit of a fetish for Tear. I used to build it on a lot of champions (even in S2) when I got ahead.
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On January 16 2013 04:10 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 12:00 arb wrote:On December 21 2012 04:16 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
Is this build still ok? Is Liandry's a good choice now that we are in season 3? You still need Rod since you need health to not die instantly so it should still be core. Usually now i'll go Tear+Cata -> RoA. Then build situational after that. Not sure if you need Chalice/Athenes since new Tear is so good. Liandrys i think is okay too, its going to give you an extra dot which i think is amplified by E, and since swain is more of a sustained dps than a burst caster its not too bad imo. What's the argument for tear? RoA+Tear just feels like way too much mana and after experimenting with skipping RoA, Catalyst is just too good to skip. If you need more mana sustain because the teamfights are more drawn out (league of bruisers) then I would rather get Athene's, despite the nerfs. It doesn't break even with tear for mana until the 3rd proc, but the 15% CDR is still enormous in giving more flexibility in resetting ult in a teamfight and helping kite with q and w, which is why you would need more ult time sustain anyways. Also, Tyrant Swain on sale this week l0l
Then mana regen on Athenes(even with the 12% restore) isnt as valuable as having a larger mana pool to sustain everything longer. I mean sure you could get RoA Tear and Athenes and it wouldnt be a problem, but just regen stats cant keep Swains ult up forever, esp when you factor in spamming spells on cd and what have you
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I've personally been going tear->roa->hourglass(dcap first if already fed and not in danger)->seraph's&void. The thing is, for Swain a mana pool can be turned directly into more damage, and the shield comes in handy as well. The thing is he gets more and more scary as there become fewer targets, especially later in a fight when big cooldowns are gone. The shield and hourglass help immensely in this regard because the real danger to swain is burst damage, his healing when he's leeching off 2+ champions is absolutely immense and lets him survive a very high amount of sustained damage.
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On January 16 2013 07:20 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 04:10 xes wrote:On December 21 2012 12:00 arb wrote:On December 21 2012 04:16 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
Is this build still ok? Is Liandry's a good choice now that we are in season 3? You still need Rod since you need health to not die instantly so it should still be core. Usually now i'll go Tear+Cata -> RoA. Then build situational after that. Not sure if you need Chalice/Athenes since new Tear is so good. Liandrys i think is okay too, its going to give you an extra dot which i think is amplified by E, and since swain is more of a sustained dps than a burst caster its not too bad imo. What's the argument for tear? RoA+Tear just feels like way too much mana and after experimenting with skipping RoA, Catalyst is just too good to skip. If you need more mana sustain because the teamfights are more drawn out (league of bruisers) then I would rather get Athene's, despite the nerfs. It doesn't break even with tear for mana until the 3rd proc, but the 15% CDR is still enormous in giving more flexibility in resetting ult in a teamfight and helping kite with q and w, which is why you would need more ult time sustain anyways. Also, Tyrant Swain on sale this week l0l Then mana regen on Athenes(even with the 12% restore) isnt as valuable as having a larger mana pool to sustain everything longer. I mean sure you could get RoA Tear and Athenes and it wouldnt be a problem, but just regen stats cant keep Swains ult up forever, esp when you factor in spamming spells on cd and what have you
I usually go RoA first, then get a Chalice afterward but sit on it for a while before upgrading. Do you think that's non-ideal? I can't remember ever feeling like I needed a larger mana pool than RoA + Chalice. I suppose RoA + Tear would have about the same effect, but I don't particularly like the idea of delaying RoA by buying Tear, and buying Tear after RoA feels kind of late. I guess AA might add a nice amount of damage but it doesn't strike me as significantly better than Athene's or Mikhail's.
edit: I realize might be underestimating the value of the shield on Seraph's... I've never felt like I needed more health than RoA (in fact it took me a while to even appreciate getting RoA on Swain) but I think a lot of that might have to do with the opponents I'm facing (i.e. they generally don't focus/burst me very hard)
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On January 16 2013 07:44 danana wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 07:20 arb wrote:On January 16 2013 04:10 xes wrote:On December 21 2012 12:00 arb wrote:On December 21 2012 04:16 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
Is this build still ok? Is Liandry's a good choice now that we are in season 3? You still need Rod since you need health to not die instantly so it should still be core. Usually now i'll go Tear+Cata -> RoA. Then build situational after that. Not sure if you need Chalice/Athenes since new Tear is so good. Liandrys i think is okay too, its going to give you an extra dot which i think is amplified by E, and since swain is more of a sustained dps than a burst caster its not too bad imo. What's the argument for tear? RoA+Tear just feels like way too much mana and after experimenting with skipping RoA, Catalyst is just too good to skip. If you need more mana sustain because the teamfights are more drawn out (league of bruisers) then I would rather get Athene's, despite the nerfs. It doesn't break even with tear for mana until the 3rd proc, but the 15% CDR is still enormous in giving more flexibility in resetting ult in a teamfight and helping kite with q and w, which is why you would need more ult time sustain anyways. Also, Tyrant Swain on sale this week l0l Then mana regen on Athenes(even with the 12% restore) isnt as valuable as having a larger mana pool to sustain everything longer. I mean sure you could get RoA Tear and Athenes and it wouldnt be a problem, but just regen stats cant keep Swains ult up forever, esp when you factor in spamming spells on cd and what have you I usually go RoA first, then get a Chalice afterward but sit on it for a while before upgrading. Do you think that's non-ideal? I can't remember ever feeling like I needed a larger mana pool than RoA + Chalice. I suppose RoA + Tear would have about the same effect, but I don't particularly like the idea of delaying RoA by buying Tear, and buying Tear after RoA feels kind of late. I guess AA might add a nice amount of damage but it doesn't strike me as significantly better than Athene's or Mikhail's. edit: I realize might be underestimating the value of the shield on Seraph's... I've never felt like I needed more health than RoA (in fact it took me a while to even appreciate getting RoA on Swain) but I think a lot of that might have to do with the opponents I'm facing (i.e. they generally don't focus/burst me very hard)
The mana pool on Seraphs is great because generally the longer you can stay in bird form(where you're aoe damaging + healing) the better. The larger mana pool will help you do that, since his ult becomes very very mana hungry the longer its up. I doubt theres anything wrong with RoA + Grail now, but i dunno im just leaning towards tear myself.
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What does everyone think about the new Armguards item?
Swain is my main, and my normal build is:
Blue+pots (to rush catalyst) -> RoA -> t1 boots -> Rabby's -> t2 boots -> Abyssal or Zhonya (depending on who is most fed) -> Whichever of Abyssal or Zhonya I didn't buy.
However, it might be beneficial to go Cata->armguards->RoA->Zhonya, in order to start stacking the armguards AND RoA. Anyone tried this?
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Armguard stacks are absorbed into the Zhonya's upgrade, so there's no need to stack it early. It also stacks pretty fast,so just buy it if you need armor and upgrade it to zhonya's when it makes sense to.
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I don't like the blue+pots start. It goes against how Swain wins lane. Blue+pots doesn't give enough sustain to go for non-onesided trades early. Swain doesn't need the mana pool to keep harassing, and he can't use the mana to push early either. I'd rather open boots/flask/faerie+pots/wards.
IMO you're getting boots& especially boots2 very late. Sorc's are extremely cost efficient for damage. Having 15 mpen against a 50 MR target along with mpen marks and 8% passive pen increases damage by ~14%.
As for the armguard, I'd get it after Roa only if there is a lot of AD, then getting either abyssal or NLR->Dcap/hourglass depending on the amount/type of damage that's coming in.
The thing about Swain is that he's not a burst caster, he needs to be alive to keep dealing damage because he gets asymptotically harder to kill so long as his ult stays up as enemy cooldowns get expended and people are killed.
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I was used to running AD/armour/MR and either AD, MR or MS quints depending on the match-up, starting flask+pot+ward and trying to win the match-up by QEing my lane opponent whenever the occasion arose then following up with as many autos as possible, esp. levels 1-3.
Was having mixed results, and low kill potential since I also run Barrier over Ignite.
Tried to run MPen/armour/MR/AP against an Ahri, same start and summoners, except whenever she'd come close to me I'd try to hit a W, walk up to her and follow it with EQ autos, instead of holding on W to protect myself or if I see kill potential after tagging them with Q.
I don't know if it's the playstyle change, or the runes, but it seemed to inflict a lot more damage on every trade (despite Ahri coming in lane with 48 MR), no matter how many autos I usually land.
I relied on MS quints/21 util a lot to outrun people and be able to run up to them and Q them, apparently I was doing it wrong.
But is using W offensively standard as Swain and the reason why he can bully? I usually felt safer holding on it.
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EPT
