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On February 06 2013 16:06 Alaric wrote:
I was used to running AD/armour/MR and either AD, MR or MS quints depending on the match-up, starting flask+pot+ward and trying to win the match-up by QEing my lane opponent whenever the occasion arose then following up with as many autos as possible, esp. levels 1-3.
Was having mixed results, and low kill potential since I also run Barrier over Ignite.
Tried to run MPen/armour/MR/AP against an Ahri, same start and summoners, except whenever she'd come close to me I'd try to hit a W, walk up to her and follow it with EQ autos, instead of holding on W to protect myself or if I see kill potential after tagging them with Q.
I don't know if it's the playstyle change, or the runes, but it seemed to inflict a lot more damage on every trade (despite Ahri coming in lane with 48 MR), no matter how many autos I usually land.
I relied on MS quints/21 util a lot to outrun people and be able to run up to them and Q them, apparently I was doing it wrong.
But is using W offensively standard as Swain and the reason why he can bully? I usually felt safer holding on it.
I save W for defensive use 90% of the time, with the rest being fishing for a kill.
Mpen quints are generally better unless you really want the help last hitting.
Ignite > Barrier imo, even though barrier gives you sikk bait opportunities.
and yes, EQ whenever you can and follow up with autos up to the creep line.
You don't need MS quints to run up and Q them, just walk towards them and make them back off.
I run mpen, health/level, flat cdr, AP for runes.
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I'm not sure I understand the point of the CDR blues. Wouldn't MR be a better choice if you wanted to trade often, or AP(/lvl) if you wanted to make the good opportunities even more punishing?
Personally I use W on every cannon creep attempt. It's often a free W early because nobody wants to give up a cannon minion, and using a spell on a lot of champs is a bit expensive.
IMO it's a good idea to throw one out every now and then if you are against a lane that can't punish you for using it if you know where the enemy jungler is. I like doing this because once you get ahead, swain naturally tends to stay ahead because often times, even blowing a lot of stuff, jungler+mid won't kill you if summoners are up post roa because of the healing from ultimate+kiting from Q/W
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On February 06 2013 17:46 Amui wrote:
I'm not sure I understand the point of the CDR blues. Wouldn't MR be a better choice if you wanted to trade often, or AP(/lvl) if you wanted to make the good opportunities even more punishing?
Personally I use W on every cannon creep attempt. It's often a free W early because nobody wants to give up a cannon minion, and using a spell on a lot of champs is a bit expensive.
IMO it's a good idea to throw one out every now and then if you are against a lane that can't punish you for using it if you know where the enemy jungler is. I like doing this because once you get ahead, swain naturally tends to stay ahead because often times, even blowing a lot of stuff, jungler+mid won't kill you if summoners are up post roa because of the healing from ultimate+kiting from Q/W
Meh i dont like CDR myself. Id usually just go ap/l unless you know youre gonna have a hard time, in which case id get MR tbh.
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Scaling ap seems like a bad idea to me because he needs to be tanky to do damage.
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On February 17 2013 18:35 Sufficiency wrote:
Scaling ap seems like a bad idea to me because he needs to be tanky to do damage.
And he needs ap to do damage, thats why most of his best items are mixes of ap/tanky stats(RoA/aby/zhonyas) with the exception of visage, which while giving no ap, helps him stay alive alot longer in teamfights.
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On February 17 2013 18:35 Sufficiency wrote:
Scaling ap seems like a bad idea to me because he needs to be tanky to do damage.
In a lot of lanes you don't need MR blues pre-6 and by level 6 the extra AP will probably keep you alive better than MR glyphs.
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Flat CDR I just run cos it happens to be on the runepage with all the other stuff I mentioned, also I really like hitting cdr cap fast.
Now that SV gives 20% though I think I'll swap them out.
MR, AP/lvl are probably top two choices followed by flat CDR then mana regen.
Also that 6% cdr means W is up a full second faster with level 1 W; that can be a game-changer.
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So after some theory crafting and browsing through the lol wiki, I've been wondering about Muramana+Seraph's on Swain. Anyone tried these on him recently?
I'm especially wondering on Muramana. I feel the amplified damage from torment could really help his increased AD from it, allowing him to do some more damage inbetween the cooldowns.
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On March 26 2013 01:16 Cloud9157 wrote:
So after some theory crafting and browsing through the lol wiki, I've been wondering about Muramana+Seraph's on Swain. Anyone tried these on him recently?
I'm especially wondering on Muramana. I feel the amplified damage from torment could really help his increased AD from it, allowing him to do some more damage inbetween the cooldowns.
If your planning on get both you might as well be playing Ryze.
Other then that, they both don't give any/much tankiness, while would result in a pretty squishy swain.
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muramana sucks on swain, buying it purely for autoattacks is straight up bad. Swain has nothing that procs muramana other than autos, and when he can already convert mana into damage, it's almost completely pointless
seraph's is okay in a lane where you can delay damage and get both tear and roa. You get a fat shield, and when coupled with hourglass basically prevents you from ever getting bursted, and you get an absolutely sick amount of AP once it charges.
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On March 26 2013 01:16 Cloud9157 wrote:
So after some theory crafting and browsing through the lol wiki, I've been wondering about Muramana+Seraph's on Swain. Anyone tried these on him recently?
I'm especially wondering on Muramana. I feel the amplified damage from torment could really help his increased AD from it, allowing him to do some more damage inbetween the cooldowns.
Swain's my Main, and I still haven't found anything better than RoA/Rabbys.
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While the combination of Muramana and Seraph's looks nice, and Torment will amplify the Muramana damage, you're looking at very little survivability in your first 6k gold. Even my rather glass cannon Swain still gets Kindlegem -> Spirit Visage fairly early.
If you were playing NO RUSH 20 MINS, maybe, you could get your items early and safely, but even then I think Swain will carry much harder with RoA/Dcap or Tear/SV/Zhonya's.
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On March 26 2013 01:56 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 01:16 Cloud9157 wrote:
So after some theory crafting and browsing through the lol wiki, I've been wondering about Muramana+Seraph's on Swain. Anyone tried these on him recently?
I'm especially wondering on Muramana. I feel the amplified damage from torment could really help his increased AD from it, allowing him to do some more damage inbetween the cooldowns. Swain's my Main, and I still haven't found anything better than RoA/Rabbys.
Would much rather have RoA/SV or HG than Hat tbh.
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On March 26 2013 01:56 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 01:16 Cloud9157 wrote:
So after some theory crafting and browsing through the lol wiki, I've been wondering about Muramana+Seraph's on Swain. Anyone tried these on him recently?
I'm especially wondering on Muramana. I feel the amplified damage from torment could really help his increased AD from it, allowing him to do some more damage inbetween the cooldowns. Swain's my Main, and I still haven't found anything better than RoA/Rabbys.
Have you ever considered double doran's instead of rushing ROA? I feel like double doran's really allows you to be more aggressive in lane as opposed to getting catalyst first, especially with the extra AP and mana regen.
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On March 27 2013 04:13 RJGooner wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 01:56 Crownlol wrote:On March 26 2013 01:16 Cloud9157 wrote:
So after some theory crafting and browsing through the lol wiki, I've been wondering about Muramana+Seraph's on Swain. Anyone tried these on him recently?
I'm especially wondering on Muramana. I feel the amplified damage from torment could really help his increased AD from it, allowing him to do some more damage inbetween the cooldowns. Swain's my Main, and I still haven't found anything better than RoA/Rabbys. Have you ever considered double doran's instead of rushing ROA? I feel like double doran's really allows you to be more aggressive in lane as opposed to getting catalyst first, especially with the extra AP and mana regen.
catalyst isn't bad because swain can convert mana into damage provided you can stay in range. If you're really dominating lane though, I'd personally go ruby+blasting rod(if I have enough), and just rely on comboing the other guy.
I almost always go (tear+)RoA+sorcs->abyssal+hourglass though, changing up order depending on enemy team. I think swain should be played as an offtank (not diving, but you want to make yourself a target over botlane, and possibly top/jungle depending on what they are playing), so my itemization reflects that.
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I don't like opening Doran's because Swain is super gankable early and needs some ward coverage against any moderately strong ganker. If you're safe from early ganks it does help you bully your lane, but unless I need that edge to bully my opponent I'd rather get a fast catalyst or tear. Once you have catalyst you can be extremely aggressive in lane, thanks to the extra hp pool.
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On March 27 2013 05:24 Tooplark wrote:
I don't like opening Doran's because Swain is super gankable early and needs some ward coverage against any moderately strong ganker. If you're safe from early ganks it does help you bully your lane, but unless I need that edge to bully my opponent I'd rather get a fast catalyst or tear. Once you have catalyst you can be extremely aggressive in lane, thanks to the extra hp pool.
I wasn't necessarily talking about opening Doran's, rather, getting that instead of a catalyst. I usually open with flask, a pot, and a ward.
While I agree that Catalyst allows you to be extremely aggressive, for 250 less gold you're sacrificing 40 health, the passive, and the mana pool while getting 30 more AP. Additionally, I don't necessarily see the loss of that mana pool as the worst thing because you get the slight mana regen and then the return-mana passive from Doran's, which means at lvl 6 you're restoring 25 mana per unit kill. I feel like this allows you to be a lot more bursty compared to Catalyst while still maintaining relatively the same tankiness (less health but more regen on your ult due to extra AP) and alleviating Swain's mana issues.
Just my two cents.
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On March 27 2013 06:56 RJGooner wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 05:24 Tooplark wrote:
I don't like opening Doran's because Swain is super gankable early and needs some ward coverage against any moderately strong ganker. If you're safe from early ganks it does help you bully your lane, but unless I need that edge to bully my opponent I'd rather get a fast catalyst or tear. Once you have catalyst you can be extremely aggressive in lane, thanks to the extra hp pool. I wasn't necessarily talking about opening Doran's, rather, getting that instead of a catalyst. I usually open with flask, a pot, and a ward. While I agree that Catalyst allows you to be extremely aggressive, for 250 less gold you're sacrificing 40 health, the passive, and the mana pool while getting 30 more AP. Additionally, I don't necessarily see the loss of that mana pool as the worst thing because you get the slight mana regen and then the return-mana passive from Doran's, which means at lvl 6 you're restoring 25 mana per unit kill. I feel like this allows you to be a lot more bursty compared to Catalyst while still maintaining relatively the same tankiness (less health but more regen on your ult due to extra AP) and alleviating Swain's mana issues. Just my two cents.
The problem is late game 2 dorans is going to be so incredibly trash in comparison to Catalyst it's not gonna be funny.
Theres literally ZERO, situations i would take 2 dorans ver Cata/Tear
ever.
Swain doesnt need the extra mana per last hit, he needs the big mana pool. The longer you can stay in Birdform and CAWCAWCAW the better, and you need a big mana pool to sustain its ever growing cost as you use it.
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On March 27 2013 11:28 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 06:56 RJGooner wrote:On March 27 2013 05:24 Tooplark wrote:
I don't like opening Doran's because Swain is super gankable early and needs some ward coverage against any moderately strong ganker. If you're safe from early ganks it does help you bully your lane, but unless I need that edge to bully my opponent I'd rather get a fast catalyst or tear. Once you have catalyst you can be extremely aggressive in lane, thanks to the extra hp pool. I wasn't necessarily talking about opening Doran's, rather, getting that instead of a catalyst. I usually open with flask, a pot, and a ward. While I agree that Catalyst allows you to be extremely aggressive, for 250 less gold you're sacrificing 40 health, the passive, and the mana pool while getting 30 more AP. Additionally, I don't necessarily see the loss of that mana pool as the worst thing because you get the slight mana regen and then the return-mana passive from Doran's, which means at lvl 6 you're restoring 25 mana per unit kill. I feel like this allows you to be a lot more bursty compared to Catalyst while still maintaining relatively the same tankiness (less health but more regen on your ult due to extra AP) and alleviating Swain's mana issues. Just my two cents. The problem is late game 2 dorans is going to be so incredibly trash in comparison to Catalyst it's not gonna be funny. Theres literally ZERO, situations i would take 2 dorans ver Cata/Tear ever. Swain doesnt need the extra mana per last hit, he needs the big mana pool. The longer you can stay in Birdform and CAWCAWCAW the better, and you need a big mana pool to sustain its ever growing cost as you use it.
Definitely valid points, but again, I feel like you're so much weaker in the catalyst phase compared to double dorans. This is especially exacerbated if you go tear/catalyst. Where is your damage coming from in the phase of the game when you have these two items? While I agree that it might be a better choice late-game, as long as you get blue-buff you should still be able to be effective in team fights. If you don't foresee getting blue-buffs later on then it might be a good choice to go ROA because of the mana pool.
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Swain is op.
There, I contributed.
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EPT
